Wheel Bearings & Hubs...

[RSTPerformance]

I am changing the front wheel bearings in my 93 VW Cabrio (I know I know, save the comments, I do have a wonderful Girlfriend) as they are making noise. It is my first time attempting to change the bearings with my own press, In the Audi's we have always sent them out to be done. What a learning experience... lets just say they should have been done tonight, but they are not, errrrr. lol

Anyway my question... sorta builds on previose discussions.


Street Car:
How often do you change the wheel bearings?

When you change the wheel bearings do you also change the hubs as standard practice?

What if the bearings were making that anoying groaning noise, do you change the hubs then?

Race Car:
How often do you change the wheel bearings?
I think the concensus is every 6 or so races/weekends or every 750 - 1,000 miles.

When you change the wheel bearings do you also change the hubs as standard practice?
I think the concensus is yes, you do change them everytime while it is apart.

Raymond "More interested to know if I should be changing the hubs in my cabrio or if it is unnessesary" Blethen

[VW16VRacer]

Raymond

We will not replace hubs on a street car unless they are damaged by the wheel bearing. Our general rule in my shop is if the inner race presses off with the hub, and you have to press the race off the hub then the hub is most likely ok, if there is no sign of heat damage. If the hub has scoring, from the bolt on Audi's or the nut on VW's, being loose or from the bearing going really bad for long enough then by all means replace it.

With that said I will replace my hubs and bearings every season or 12 races and I will only use the German hubs and FAG bearings packed with Swepco, Redline or Mobil 1 grease. We can buy hubs made in China for $9 our cost, I just have a problem entering a turn on $9 hubs. I did send this set of front bearings and hubs to the cryo treater to see is we could get more life out of them and this set has lasted me 17 races so far. I will torque the nut to 200ft/lbs every time I hit the lugs with a toruqe wrench and I rotate tires with every heat cycle so the nut stays nice and tight. If we have a bearing fail in the front we will always replace both sides, hubs and all. We will only replace hubs and bearings on our clients race cars or track cars.

Why are you sending them out, buy the wheel bearing tool from Snap On or AST and do it yourself. You can even do it on the car without removing the strut. I have had my press tool for 15 years now and besides my pen that tool has paid for it's self 1000 times over. If you do a lot of work on VW and Audi's, hell any European car that is, then this is the tool to have, even works on some of the other import cars and american iron too. BTW be carefull if you lend the tool out, mine has come back broken or bent a couple of times. Try to fing someone that has one and use it before you buy it, once you have used it you may question hou you lived with out one. I think the tool # is YA8450 but Snap On's web site sucks for info or pictures.


Jon

[Eric Parham]

Agree on the hub re-use -- that is, okay to reuse if it looks okay and race has to be pressed off. Definitely replace it if the hub just falls out of the race! Also agree on hub quality. The German ones seem to be forged, while some others are apparently cast. I ended up with a new cast one recently, and I'm afraid to even give it away. I have the special tool (and usually bring it to every race) if you want to try changing a front bearing with the upright in place.

[JamesB]

From more then one source replace the hubs and bearings once a season. Mine so far look good, so I will do it over the winter and be ready for next season.

On street cars, I only replace the hubs when they are damaged by a bad wheel bearing or cross threaded by someone. Otherwise that inner race comes off easilly with a press or with my super duper JamesB welded 5 dollar gear puller.

[Knestis]

We typicall replace the bearings and hubs together before each long enduro, and let the rest of the racing use up the left over wear.

K

[Wreckerboy]

<SNIP>
Why are you sending them out, buy the wheel bearing tool from Snap On or AST and do it yourself. You can even do it on the car without removing the strut. I have had my press tool for 15 years now and besides my pen that tool has paid for it&#39;s self 1000 times over. If you do a lot of work on VW and Audi&#39;s, hell any European car that is, then this is the tool to have, even works on some of the other import cars and american iron too. BTW be carefull if you lend the tool out, mine has come back broken or bent a couple of times. Try to fing someone that has one and use it before you buy it, once you have used it you may question hou you lived with out one. I think the tool # is YA8450 but Snap On&#39;s web site sucks for info or pictures.
Jon
[/b]

Okay, so first I PM&#39;ed Jon for more information about this tool as I need to do a similar on the daily driver and figured any tool that would let me take the entire job in-house isn&#39;t a bad thing. That, and I&#39;m a sucker for new tools. Then I got bored while waiting to hear back from Jon, so I tried to find out more for myself. Such is the power of the &#39;net, a fast connection, and a slow day at work.

There wasn&#39;t a Snap-On listing for the tool Jon described, but there was for a YA9240. Unfortunately, it is no longer available. Calling Snap-On produced a link to the original manufacturer of the tool, Schley. Schley no longer makes the tool either, because they couldn&#39;t compete with the "cheap Chinese importer who was cloning the thing." That led me to said importer, OTC, who still manufacturers / imports / supports slave labor /&#39; whater to have the thing - the OTC 6537 Hub Tamer Elite ( http://www.otctools.com/products/detail.php?id=1736 ) It truly looks like a neat tool to have.

Sadly, it lists on the far side of $650, but can be found on Amazon and e-scam for between $200 - $300. A local distributor had it for $450. Ouch. That puts my usage and ROI out around the great-grandchild range. Dang. It looks like I&#39;m taking it to the local machinist after all.

[sneville44]

I bought my Schley Products (SP Tools) wheel hub/bearing setup from Toolsource.com about two years ago. Looking at Toolsource&#39;s current online catalog (click on link below) they still list the components under SP Tools...but the question is are the components still available. I believe that SP Tools shipped direct to my house after I placed the order though Toolsource. Below is a photo of my set up and a parts list from Toolsource:

http://www.toolsource.com/ost/results.asp?...d_id=&sourceid= (http://www.toolsource.com/ost/results.asp?qu=schley&dept_id=500&mscssid=8TS0BJFX1UCA9H33E8L11VVQ39500439&brand_id=&sourceid=)

http://www.norcalgticup.com/sptoolphoto.jpg

SP Tool # Part Description Price

83500-1 7/8" 9 x 10" Special Bolt (1) $28.95
83500-2 7/8" x 2.45 Special Nut (1) $10.95
83500-3 12mm x 1.5 x 80 mm hub removal bolts (2 needed) $11.75 (each)
83500-7 Pusher Washer 2.438 x 0.700 (1) $18.95
83500-5 3" diameter x 1.8" Sleeve (1) $16.95
86300-3 3 3/8" diameter Cup (1) $29.95

total $129.25

This might be a dead end...which is a bummer. The quality of the SP Tool components are very high since they are made for professional mechanics who use these tools much more frequently than the occasional use frequency of a racer/mechanic. Here&#39;s a link to a tech tip I put together awhile back on how to use this tool...hope it helps... http://www.norcalgticup.com/frontwheelbearingr&r.html

Rapid Parts use to rent out the tool...you might check with them to see if they still have one to rent. I think I paid ~$35 to rent it (and had to put a ~$250 safety deposit on it).
http://www.rapidparts.com/

Good luck,

Scott Neville
#44 NorCal GTI-Cup
http://www.norcalgticup.com

[ryotko]

Okay, so first I PM&#39;ed Jon for more information about this tool as I need to do a similar on the daily driver and figured any tool that would let me take the entire job in-house isn&#39;t a bad thing. That, and I&#39;m a sucker for new tools. Then I got bored while waiting to hear back from Jon, so I tried to find out more for myself. Such is the power of the &#39;net, a fast connection, and a slow day at work.

There wasn&#39;t a Snap-On listing for the tool Jon described, but there was for a YA9240. Unfortunately, it is no longer available. Calling Snap-On produced a link to the original manufacturer of the tool, Schley. Schley no longer makes the tool either, because they couldn&#39;t compete with the "cheap Chinese importer who was cloning the thing." That led me to said importer, OTC, who still manufacturers / imports / supports slave labor /&#39; whater to have the thing - the OTC 6537 Hub Tamer Elite ( http://www.otctools.com/products/detail.php?id=1736 ) It truly looks like a neat tool to have.

Sadly, it lists on the far side of $650, but can be found on Amazon and e-scam for between $200 - $300. A local distributor had it for $450. Ouch. That puts my usage and ROI out around the great-grandchild range. Dang. It looks like I&#39;m taking it to the local machinist after all.
[/b]

Try this http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/disp...temnumber=45210 (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45210)

It&#39;s even on sale ~$60. While it&#39;s not the quality of the Schley set it works great. I&#39;ve done over 20 wheel bearings with mine (wait and see how popular you get) and there&#39;s no signs of wear. The hard part is still removing the hub, same as with the Schley if I recall. You&#39;ll need a couple of really long bolts with the same thread as the lugs. If you don&#39;t use lug bolts it can get real interesting.

-Bob

[Eric Parham]

I&#39;ve got the Schley tool. Bought it over 6 years ago and don&#39;t remember the price (maybe $300?). Three of us went in on it originally, and then I bought them out over the years. Comparing to the picture above, I believe that mine also came with several different adapter plates to fit different cars (VW, Audi, Porsche, etc.).

[Wreckerboy]

Scott - thanks for the excellent write up. I&#39;ve just gotten off-line from the Timken site, checking to see how the dimensions of Toyota wheel bearings stack up against the parts you listed for your A1 VW application. (The car in question is a 2000 Corolla, no ABS.) The only problem I see is in the removal of the hub assembly. Unlike VW&#39;s, Toyotas have conventional wheel studs that are swaged into the hub, which eliminates the possibility of using the hub removal nuts you listed to press the hub off of the carrier/bearing as you described.

Bob - thanks for the link to the HF tool. It may well answer my questions. However, I still have to address the issue of getting the damned hub out of the way.

All - I&#39;m thinking of using a three jaw puller to remove the hub from the carrier. In order to do this, however, I need something for the puller to work against. This would appear to be the axle. Can I use the three jaw puller against the axle (in other words, with the axle still in place) to remove the hub? Step 7 of Scott&#39;s write up indicates that is the way it was done, am I correct in this assumption?

Rob

[JamesB]

HF no longer sells my bearing kit. But mine had a slide hammer to remove the hub. only once did it take me more then a 3-4 good hits to remove the hub. From there everything is spin out spin in including the hub. I use a small modified 2 jaw gear puller with a custom clasp to hold it in place to pull the outer race off the hub.

But then I been doing wheel bearings on my cars and as side work for about 4 years and nearly perfected my version.

[sneville44]

It appears that SP Tools (Schley Tools http://www.sptool.com/ ) still makes the wheel bearing tool for Audi and Volkswagens.

I was able to order today (9-19-06) a new pusher washer/disc for a larger wheel bearing (for the 68mm bearing--2.625 inch disc) today from Toolsource.com. http://www.toolsource.com

Go the their tool search feature and type in "Schley" and use the parts list I supplied in my earlier post.

I really am impressed with Toolsource&#39;s customer service. I e-mailed them asking about the larger pusher washer/disc and within a few hours they had e-mailed me back with a brand new web link to the part. I doesn&#39;t get any better than that in my book.

Keeping my fingers crossed that SP Tools still makes the tools....I&#39;ll update this post when I find out.

[racer_tim]

Forget all of the tools and home remedies. Just take the hub/bearing to a VW shop and tell them to install new GERMAN bearings, not the Brazilian units, and forget about it.

Sorry, but it&#39;s "food chain" to me. Yes, I enjoy rebuilding motors, dis-assembly, re-assembly, but some things just need to be done by "pros".

Just like rebuilding trannies. WAY too many moving parts for me, but I&#39;m more than comfortable rebuilding a head, AFTER the new valve guides and seats have been installed, and I can lap the valves, and re-assemble and port the head.

[sneville44]

Hey Tim,

I totally agree using the best quality bearings/hubs as that&#39;s not a place to cheap out. And I won&#39;t tackle the insides of a tranny either. But the front wheel bearings aren&#39;t rocket science. Owning the tool that the pros use (Schley) has paid for itself a bunch of times for me and my fellow Rabbit racers (who have borrowed the tool) and it has proven invaluable as on numerous occasions we have replaced bearings and hubs at the track thus saving the weekend for a racer.

Cheers,
Scott

[JamesB]

Always use grade A parts thats a given. But as said before, that tool pays for itself in one use. In the amount of time it would take me to remove the two spindles just to go down and pay 1-2hours time for a person to press it I could have paid for the top parts and finished the work.


Its not rocket science, thats why I dont build my own motors though I am learning the tricks to that so I can reduce my costs.

[racer_tim]

Scott I believe in another process. Bring enough spares to rebuild each front corner to the track. If I don&#39;t use them, and continue to bring them to the track all year, oh well. I bring a spare strut, hub, control arm, brake caliper, rotor, brake pads, and 1/2 shaft for each side to EACH race weekend.

But I do know, that the hub and 1/2 shafts will be next years parts on the car, and the old ones with go to the pro&#39;s to have the bearings replaced.

Every year I also replace the entire 1/2 shaft assemblies. They get removed, replaced, and the spares that I carried all year long, go on the car, the the old ones are turned as cores and replaced as an entire assembly.

We all know that the front end of the VW is the weakest link, and since I run a locked diff, the stress is even greater.

I lost a hub when I went up on 2 wheels @ Sears during the re-construction in 2001, and I&#39;ve lost a CV joint in 2003 @ Thunderhill. Luckly, I lost the hub on the last lap and actually finished, and I lost the CV in practice or qualifying, so I was able to replace it, and still finish the weekend.

[Bill Miller]

Tim,


I used to do the same thing, take complete spare corners w/ me. I even had a spare rear beam in the trailer. Mostly I ended up lending the stuff to friends that needed them. :birra:

[michael baumet]

I have been running the same front bearings and hub assembly for about 5 years now. I think I have streched my luck far enough. I called my local parts store and the brearings they carry are Fedral Mogul. The price is $63 per bearing. is this a good brand? also, arent these sealed breaings? The reason I ask is that someone mentioned about using synthetic grease to pack the bearings. Mabye it was the rears they were refering to.

Thanks for your help.

[sneville44]

It appears that SP Tools (Schley Tools http://www.sptool.com/ ) still makes the wheel bearing tool for Audi and Volkswagens.

I was able to order today (9-19-06) a new pusher washer/disc for a larger wheel bearing (for the 68mm bearing--2.625 inch disc) today from Toolsource.com. http://www.toolsource.com

Go the their tool search feature and type in "Schley" and use the parts list I supplied in my earlier post.

I really am impressed with Toolsource&#39;s customer service. I e-mailed them asking about the larger pusher washer/disc and within a few hours they had e-mailed me back with a brand new web link to the part. I doesn&#39;t get any better than that in my book.

Keeping my fingers crossed that SP Tools still makes the tools....I&#39;ll update this post when I find out.
[/b]

Got my pusher washer yesterday....still Made in USA too!


Mike98
SKF front wheel bearings for a Rabbit (64mm) are $18.85 each at http://www.audicarparts.com

[Grumpa]

I had the grease escape from my left front last weekend during the Sat. race at IRP. Pulled the spindle and ran home (20 minutes) to replace the hub/bearing. Returned and put it back together, torqued the axle nut and the bearing locked. Removed the assembly, inspected and reassembled and voila! - same result. Back to the shop with spindle, removed bearing/hub and put new together. Back out in the morning, put the spindle back on the axle shaft and snugged the nut down. Same thing, locked the bearing. Lightly tapping with a small ball peen on both bearing/hub assy&#39;s freed up the bearing until they were again tightened. When I pressed the bearings into the spindle, I pressed on the outer race, and pressed the hub into the bearing using the inner race. The bearings are FAG&#39;s and the hubs are Brax. I have done this procedure a few times and this was the first time I have had this problem. Perplexing, to say the least. Anyone else seen this aggravation?

[Eric Parham]

I had the grease escape from my left front last weekend during the Sat. race at IRP. Pulled the spindle and ran home (20 minutes) to replace the hub/bearing. Returned and put it back together, torqued the axle nut and the bearing locked. Removed the assembly, inspected and reassembled and voila! - same result. Back to the shop with spindle, removed bearing/hub and put new together. Back out in the morning, put the spindle back on the axle shaft and snugged the nut down. Same thing, locked the bearing. Lightly tapping with a small ball peen on both bearing/hub assy&#39;s freed up the bearing until they were again tightened. When I pressed the bearings into the spindle, I pressed on the outer race, and pressed the hub into the bearing using the inner race. The bearings are FAG&#39;s and the hubs are Brax. I have done this procedure a few times and this was the first time I have had this problem. Perplexing, to say the least. Anyone else seen this aggravation?
[/b]

Two possibilities that I can think of. Same CV joint? Same inner circlip? The circlip designed for the 100mm CV joints has more clearance than the one designed for the 90mm CV joints. Thus, if you use a 100mm joint with a wider circlip designed for a 90mm joint, it may lock when the nut is tightened.



[A]lso, arent these sealed breaings? The reason I ask is that someone mentioned about using synthetic grease to pack the bearings. Mabye it was the rears they were refering to.
[/b]

The front bearings are sealed, but it&#39;s still possible to carefully remove the grease seals (carefully because they must be reused) and press in the new synthetic grease.

[Grumpa]

Eric,
Same CV & clip, all I replaced were the wheel bearing and hub. Bearing&#39;s a bearing and hub&#39;s a hub - or so I thought. <_<

[Eric Parham]

Eric,
Same CV & clip, all I replaced were the wheel bearing and hub. Bearing&#39;s a bearing and hub&#39;s a hub - or so I thought. <_<
[/b]

Just to be sure, is there any possibility that the inner and outer circlips got swapped? Obviously it wouldn&#39;t matter if they were identical, but since the outer doesn&#39;t need the extra clearance they may not have been...

[Grumpa]

Just to be sure, is there any possibility that the inner and outer circlips got swapped? Obviously it wouldn&#39;t matter if they were identical, but since the outer doesn&#39;t need the extra clearance they may not have been...[/b]



I believe the clips are the same, but I will pull the inner clip and snug the nut back down and see what happens. This is a little perplexing to say the least.

[BobsAuto]

Ok, this is totally unracecar related, BUT related to wheels and hubs. Bob and I are fixing brakes for a lady on her 95 Toyota 4wd V-6 Pickup. We cannot for the life of us get the front hub off to replace the rotor. Does ANYONE have any suggestions or maybe know of something we may have missed? We had a hell of a time getting the caliper off. She overheated the damned things so bad the pistons welded themselves to the backing plates of the no longer existant pads. You can just imagine what the rotor looks like. This woman has no money to spend and is a royal pain in the tukus but we have to be nice since she owns the garage we rent. (By the way, we are looking to rent a better one for cheap money in Loudon if anyone knows of one. This one leaks like crazy.)
Thanks.

[sneville44]

I found this link about replacing hubs in Toyota 4x4&#39;s....it might be of help to you...good luck!

http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/autohub/

[BobsAuto]

Thanks, but the truck we&#39;re working on is newer and does not have these type hubs. Darn. But you got me wondering and gave me an idea.
Thanks again!