9.2 SAFETY CAR (pace car)

[dj10]

GCR 9.2.1 Operation and Control

"In the event the safety car is not dispatched in the front of the lead car, the offical SHALL wave cars by until the leader is behind the safety car."



I have to obey the SCCA rules. SCCA please abide by your own to keep things fair for everyone racing.



dj

[Greg Amy]

You should have filed a protest. It may not have changed the outcome of the race, but it most certainly would have been a much more efficient and efective means of getting that thought across, rather than putting a post in the Improved Touring forum four days later...

I understand your frustration, but keep this in mind for the next time something goes wrong.

[dj10]

You should have filed a protest. It may not have changed the outcome of the race, but it most certainly would have been a much more efficient and efective means of getting that thought across, rather than putting a post in the Improved Touring forum four days later...

I understand your frustration, but keep this in mind for the next time something goes wrong.
[/b]



I did talk to the chief steward and he agreeded with me what good would have a protest have done? I think you are right and I should have and maybe it would be more effective. I only posted this in the hopes that any SCCA officals that MAY read it, keep this in mind.

Greg, I got hosed but I'm not mad or frustrated what happened happened. I just don't want someone else to a get their race screwed by a bad call.

Thanks, I will remember this in the future.

[lateapex911]

Interesting.....

MY understanding was that there was some blazingly fast cat that had lapped you, but not the other ITS cars. But that's not what happened?

Gregs right...but it's hard to write an effective protest quickly after a race. Still, it needs to be done. It's one of the checks and balances that helps the system self correct. It's our job to do it, for the good of all.

But I appreciate you posting it here. I think there are some lurkers who might even wear white. ;)

[dj10]

Interesting.....

MY understanding was that there was some blazingly fast cat that had lapped you, but not the other ITS cars. But that's not what happened?

Gregs right...but it's hard to write an effective protest quickly after a race. Still, it needs to be done. It's one of the checks and balances that helps the system self correct. It's our job to do it, for the good of all.

But I appreciate you posting it here. I think there are some lurkers who might even wear white. ;) [/b]



Jake,

Up to that point the lead ITS cars were in the toe of the boot and I was 1/2 way down the hill. I was not lapped my anyone when the pace car jumped infront of me at the exit of the bus stop.

Again, you and Greg are right, I should have filed the protest. You human to make a mistake once, to make the same mistake twice, your a fool.

[lateapex911]

Ouch, that sucks.

Easy mistake to make (It s tough to get the paperwork together on such short term notice).

[Andy Bettencourt]

So let's talk this through a little more. Here is what I see as options:

1. You sit back and get hosed - then 'chat' with an SOM - net = hosed

2. You sit back and get hosed - then file a protest - apology from officials - net = hosed

3. Knowing you are not the lead car, pass the pace car. Get protested and/or penalized by the Officials - hopefully it would never come to that as they realized they were picking up the wrong guy.

"I thought I saw the Pace Car wave me by. Per the GCR, he is supposed to do that in order to pick up the leader"....

It's situations like this I like to play out in my mind (like getting passed under yellow and then deciding how/when/if you are going to take it back in front of a corner station that didn't see the first pass...) so that you are 'prepared to do what you need to do and also to defend yourself with the stewards. Just another one of a thousand reasons to have video going...

[dj10]

So let's talk this through a little more. Here is what I see as options:

1. You sit back and get hosed - then 'chat' with an SOM - net = hosed

2. You sit back and get hosed - then file a protest - apology from officials - net = hosed

3. Knowing you are not the lead car, pass the pace car. Get protested and/or penalized by the Officials - hopefully it would never come to that as they realized they were picking up the wrong guy.

"I thought I saw the Pace Car wave me by. Per the GCR, he is supposed to do that in order to pick up the leader"....

It's situations like this I like to play out in my mind (like getting passed under yellow and then deciding how/when/if you are going to take it back in front of a corner station that didn't see the first pass...) so that you are 'prepared to do what you need to do and also to defend yourself with the stewards. Just another one of a thousand reasons to have video going... [/b]



You pretty much hit the nail on the head Andy. Except one thing, the video would have shown the pace car not waving me bye, but it cut me off when I did try and pass it, twice. :) I've never had a protest filed against me for anything and I didn't want to start then. I'd rather be the person filing the protest. Now that I think about it, I've only ever had 1 plenty, a stop & go for a missed yellow.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Well that may be an instance when you ran out of tape, didn't start the tape or had a dead battery... :P

Weird occurances where a split second decision can mean you get boned or not...I know I learned something about what I will do should it happen to me...

[RSTPerformance]

Andy-

Unfortunatly I WOULD NOT follow what your posts suggest to do if you "read between the lines."

The overall situation is a bad situation to be in and I rather not think about it as an SIT... :(

I can say that if you were to pass the pace car you are likely putting yourself and/or someone else in jepordy.

The pace car could purposly be holding you back... for safety reasons (The Glenn likes to have all cars under control before making an on track pick-up -track rules), or maybe you were laped and didn't realize, and/or any other number of other reasons.

You are also likely to really really piss off the pace car driver whome generally always has a pace car steward in it, thus you would be pissing off the stewards as well.

The penalty imposed for passing the pace car is likely larger than being split from cars you probably wont catch anyway. Passing the pace car in my mind would NOT be a mistake but a pure disreguard for rules. The pace car failing to catch the leaders could be a mistake. Big difference and 2 wrongs doesn't make things correct.

This reminds me of a bummer situation when you get behind an amazingly slow driver who wont catch the field... Fustrating but something we all just need to deal with it, and file a protest so others can learn from it for better days in the future.

On a side note, if you think protesting the steward wont gain you anything you are wrong. I don't think you would make anyone upset if you protested the operating steward and pace car steward if this situation arose. Stewards need continual feedback so that they can also learn from mistakes. If a steward were to loose a protest you can be sure that as things go around between drivers they also go around between stewards and I bet he/she would be watched to ensure that he/she didn't make a similar mistake. Also as an FYI: Stewards are reviewed every year, and they can loose thier licence as with any driver. You might not see written penalties (although I don't see why thier couldn't be), but I am sure that he/she will get a repromand by the SOM.

Raymond "Be thankful your not the full course yellow" Blethen

[lateapex911]

A most informative post.

My impression of the Stewards world is that its like an underwold. All sorts of things go on but we never really realize it. But I'e gotten the feeling that when Stewards step out of line, bad things happen to them.

[RSTPerformance]

A most informative post.

My impression of the Stewards world is that its like an underwold. All sorts of things go on but we never really realize it. But I'e gotten the feeling that when Stewards step out of line, bad things happen to them.
[/b]


Same as anything else people talk and I don't know first hand, but I am sure even without a protest things were mentioned at the Glen behind closed doors...

Raymond

[Andy Bettencourt]

Raymond-Red,



I understand your post and I hope all abide by it. I am just saying that these one-offs need to be thought out before they happen so you can be prepared with your best decision - whatever it may be. VERY similar to the age old question of what you do if you are passed under yellow...

[dickita15]

I think the most important part of Andy’s post is that you have to run thru all the scenarios before you act. Like the repass under yellow you need to analyze the upside and the down side of acting and not acting instead of just reacting to something that just seems unfair at the moment. I admit this is not an easy thing to do with a helmet on.

[RacerBill]

I agree with Dick and Ray. Most imortant, you need to read and understand the GCR (and any sups for an event). Then analyze various scenarios that you have witnessed or been a part of, how the rules apply, and then decide what you would/should have done.

Does anyone remember the video that was posted here about a year ago titled 'I Was Seventh!'. Here was this driver who got gridded in the wrong place, in this case ahead of the sixth place car. As the cars rolled off the grid, he indicated for the grid worker to release the sixth place car ahead of him. When he went to move, the grid worker held him in place, and let the entire rest of the field - about forty cars - proceed ahead of him. Talk about getting hosed! Well, the driver tried to correct the mistake by passing almost the entire field on the pace lap! Funny video! Of course, he was excluded from the results, and did not get credit for a finish.

Here are a bunch of wrongs, none of which can be combined to make a right situation. 1) the grid worker reversed the sixth and seventh place cars. 2) the sixth place driver did not know he was out of place. 3) the seventh place driver knew he was out of place - at what point he knew, I don't know - but did nothing to correct the situation until the grid stated to move onto the track. and 4) the seventh place driver tried to regain his position in the field after moving onto the track. What would you do? You make the call.

Please remember that everone at the track is human and subject to making mistakes now and them (I seem to remember making one, back in '69 I think :rolleyes: no, that was in '70) And that we sign a statement on every entry form that we will abide by the GCR and sups. We must depend on the officials and workers to direct our actions, and need to pray that they have the wisdom and experience to do it right as much as possible, to keep us safe.

Let's go racin"!!!!!!! Safely!!!!!

[RSTPerformance]

Does anyone remember the video that was posted here about a year ago titled 'I Was Seventh!'. Here was this driver who got gridded in the wrong place, in this case ahead of the sixth place car. As the cars rolled off the grid, he indicated for the grid worker to release the sixth place car ahead of him. When he went to move, the grid worker held him in place, and let the entire rest of the field - about forty cars - proceed ahead of him. Talk about getting hosed! Well, the driver tried to correct the mistake by passing almost the entire field on the pace lap! Funny video! Of course, he was excluded from the results, and did not get credit for a finish.

Here are a bunch of wrongs, none of which can be combined to make a right situation. 1) the grid worker reversed the sixth and seventh place cars. 2) the sixth place driver did not know he was out of place. 3) the seventh place driver knew he was out of place - at what point he knew, I don't know - but did nothing to correct the situation until the grid stated to move onto the track. and 4) the seventh place driver tried to regain his position in the field after moving onto the track. What would you do? You make the call.

[/b]


What would I do... In your example wich is a good similar instance but a discusion would certainly be off topic but in anycase my responce... (Wow that was a mouth full!!! ;) )

In your example: A few things upfront:

1) I have no horn to attract attention :(
2) Other cars are running so reving my engine and what not doesn't attract any attention :(
3) I am belted in and can not get out of the car and get someone and still have time to re-enter my car in time. :(
4) Flailing my arms waiving and what not does not get anyones attention cause nobody is paying any attention to me in. :(

With all that said I would have pulled out of line BEFORE the cars were moving. This is out of nature and would certainly get the attention of grid workers. They would have come over asked what was wrong and corrections could have then been made.

Because the driver was not clear in your example he/she desrves what happened.

Raymond

[lateapex911]

Found it...

It'd hot, we all need a laugh. One of the funniest videos of all times. And if we're discussing it, lets get the facts straight.

What would YOU have done??
;)


Thanks to the great guys at King Rat for assembling this:

http://www.specmiatavideos.com/compliations.htm

[RSTPerformance]

Well I was woried after your post jake that I had missed part of the story, but I don't think I did!!! That has to be one of the funniest and most amazing video's, However it also has to be one of the most dangerouse driving shows I have EVER sceen (Maybe that is the comedy in it?). I am suprised that his novice permit wasn't yanked all together, and he wasn't required to go back to drivers school and learn what the word "SAFETY" means.

ALL NEWBIES SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO WATCH THAT VIDEO and see WHAT NOT to do.

Thanks jake for posting, certainly entertained me for 5 minutes of my life!!!


Raymond "I am glad everyone else was paying attention and thier was no "incidents" whith metle to metle" Blethen

[lateapex911]

You're welcome...

His mettle was certainly tested, but thankfully, his metal wasn't...

;)

[RSTPerformance]

You're welcome...

His mettle was certainly tested, but thankfully, his metal wasn't...

;)
[/b]


opps :bash_1_: lack of spell check as per the norm ;) oh and maybe the :birra: as per the norm ;) JK

Raymond

[dj10]

Found it...

It'd hot, we all need a laugh. One of the funniest videos of all times. And if we're discussing it, lets get the facts straight.

What would YOU have done??
;)


Thanks to the great guys at King Rat for assembling this:

http://www.specmiatavideos.com/compliations.htm [/b]



Wow, that was great!!!!!!!!!!!

I would have got out of my car and had a talk with someone! :D

I also believe honesty is the best policy when dealing with anyone.

[JLawton]

Hmmmm. Honestly?? I probably never would have noticed I was in the wrong slot!! :lol:
Either way, If I couldn't get grids attention, i would have gone out in 6th.....

Last race I had, I was gridded on the out side. As we started rolling on the front straight behind the pace car, the car in the row ahead of me pulled off and pointed everyone by. So there was a hole in the row ahead of me. During the pace lap I kept hoping the car on my inside would fill in the spot ahead of me. As we approached the last corner on the pace lap (after long consideration) I moved into that spot, picking up two positions. I felt a little less guilty when the car I jumped over, passed during the race.

What would you do??

[dickita15]

What would you do??
[/b]

in the case of the I was 7th. If I could not get it fixed before the one minute I would go out in 6th.

in jeffs pace lap drop out case, you move up, no crossing over after you have been split. recipie for chaos.

[dj10]

Hmmmm. Honestly?? I probably never would have noticed I was in the wrong slot!! :lol:
Either way, If I couldn't get grids attention, i would have gone out in 6th.....

Last race I had, I was gridded on the out side. As we started rolling on the front straight behind the pace car, the car in the row ahead of me pulled off and pointed everyone by. So there was a hole in the row ahead of me. During the pace lap I kept hoping the car on my inside would fill in the spot ahead of me. As we approached the last corner on the pace lap (after long consideration) I moved into that spot, picking up two positions. I felt a little less guilty when the car I jumped over, passed during the race.

What would you do?? [/b]



I personally believe you did the right thing by moving into that spot. He who hesitates is lose! If the rightful person does not fill the spot, assuming he/ she was given ever chance, then by all means you take it. I feel you would have created a more dangerous situation by not filling the space. You never know what the intentions of others behind you might be if they saw the opening. If you feel guilty about moving ahead of someone, let them by after the green flag then race them for position.

[RKramden]

As one who
A: Lurks here,
B: Wears white (but never after Labor Day!),
C: Sometimes drives the Pace Car, and
D: used to be a steward,
maybe I can shed a bit of light on the "underworld".

Stewards can get reprimanded as part of a protest if they screw up, just like any other official. That is the same as it happening to a driver, a letter goes in you record file.

The executive steward can do an "Officials" review, just like a "Drivers" review. The result is not normally nice, as it is often a suspension of a license for a year or so or some other remedial action. Or not, it depends on what caused the review. It normally isn't a single incident, but having a bunch of letters in your folder. It is a process to deal with the person who is a problem at race after race, but one that doesn't always get them points. (and officials don't have "points" in any case.)

As far as the "underworld" goes, the way it used to be in my division, the high level stewards get together at a invite-only meeting and discuss the license grades of all the stewards in the division and any other officials they feel the need to talk about.

The system works well, except when there is a problem with the Executive Steward or one of the other high level stewards. From first hand knowledge, I can tell you that a long phone call to the right person at "national" to discuss a few serious problems can result in an high level stewards being called on the carpet by the folks out west.



So, if you file a protest, you will most likely get your money back, as it was well founded, and at least, there should be a reprimand or something like it in the responsible stewards folder, hopefully preventing such a screwup from happening again. And, word will spread far and wide as well, maybe helping a few others to "learn".

[dj10]

As one who
A: Lurks here,
B: Wears white (but never after Labor Day!),
C: Sometimes drives the Pace Car, and
D: used to be a steward,
maybe I can shed a bit of light on the "underworld".

[/b]



Thanks Dave, informative.