IT7 Spec tire YES OR NO ??

[Tere]

OK Guys,
The mid year meeting is upon us - I have had several opinions, give me some feed back. Do you want a spec tire Yes or No. I will use these replies and conversations I have had to make my decision.
Thanks
Tere Pulliam
Atlanta Region RE

[steve s]

yes spec tire. :happy204:

[Hammer]

Yes for a spec tire

Paul McNamara
IT7 #56

[sgallimo]

This IT-7 driver says yes to the current IT-7 spec tire rule.

[crushed]

no spec tire

[sgallimo]

Spoke to IT-7 driver Rex Deffenbaugh via the telephone. He is on vacation and has no internet access.
He votes yes on the spec tire.

[tom_sprecher]

No spec tire.

[it7rx739]

NO spec tire.


Attila Lukacs it7/A #39

[dobsontowing]

No to spec tire














Brian Dobson
IT-7 #6
IT-A #6

[papabear]

No spec tire rule

Freddy Klopper
IT7 #7

[tlyttle43]

Yes to the spec tire.

Tom Lyttle
IT7 #43

[Mike Guenther]

Freedom of choice. No spec tire requirement. Freedom of competition between tire manufacturers to develope better tires at competitive value, (cost versus performance and longevity). No spec tire monopoly.

For what its worth, let me say that I use the tire that is currently spec'd. I have used several of two other brands also and made my decision based on performance and longevity with some cost consideration. But this is one area that I think each person should be able to make that decision based on their own evaluation and not be forced into one brand.

[edweiner]

yes to spec tire. it keeps the playing field even.

ed weiner it7 #84

[IT728]

Yes to spec tire rule

IT7 #28
Robert Mitchell

[mocoboyz]

We agree with the Spec tire rule as written.



Team Emylou

[GSHAMP]

NO SPEC TIRE! This is a safety and cost issue to real racing. The Toyo is tall and hard. Therefore, it will require lowering the Rx7 into the bump stops to meet the ride height limit. Hitting a bump stop results in instance oversteer or understeer depend on which end bottoms first. A hard tire WILL be softened until it is as soft as possible and still make the race distance or come apart. Racing is about optimizing parameters within the confines of the rules. What I have stated above is not outside the rules.

[tom_sprecher]

Tere,

Unless you know these people or can identify them as from the SEDiv, unknown voters should not count if you are taking a poll on which to base your decision.

[lateapex911]

NO SPEC TIRE! This is a safety and cost issue to real racing. The Toyo is tall and hard. Therefore, it will require lowering the Rx7 into the bump stops to meet the ride height limit. Hitting a bump stop results in instance oversteer or understeer depend on which end bottoms first. A hard tire WILL be softened until it is as soft as possible and still make the race distance or come apart. Racing is about optimizing parameters within the confines of the rules. What I have stated above is not outside the rules.
[/b]


Ahhhhhhhhhh. the safety card!!!

LOL.

Didn't Lukas WIN the ARRCs one year on those same tall hard, and clearly unsafe Toyos?

Good chuckle, that!

[Catch22]

I am not an IT7 driver, but I have lots of experience with Spec Tires, especially Spec Toyo RA1s. So here is some information. Thats all it is, you can choose to take it or leave it.

There is a common misconception that a Toyo Spec tire "Levels the playing field." As any frontrunning, experienced racer will tell you (especially one thats been in Spec Miata for the last few years) this just isn't true. The absolute WORST choice for a spec tire is one that needs to be shaved and performs very differently at different levels of shavedness. You know, like the Toyo RA1.

Let me explain...
You spec a Toyo tire because you think the guys with the most money to buy new Hoosiers every weekend have a distinct advantage. So if everyone has to run Toyos that advantage is gone... Right?
Wrong. A guy that can run new Hoosiers every weekend can also afford to shave his Toyos to 1/32, use them once or twice, and throw them away. Meanwhile, Captain Budget is using 4 to 6/32 tires and trying to get 4 weekends out of them. By the time they are at 1/32, they are heat cycled a dozen times and are sort of crappy.
So, what have you gained? Is everyone on the same tire?
Well... Everyone is on the same brand of tire, but everyone is not on the same tire. The guys who had the advantage before still have the advantage, and the grid order hasn't changed at all. All you managed to do was give Toyo a monopoly and reduce your own choices.
Don't believe me?
Look at SM. They have been on spec toyos, open tires, and back to spec toyos over the past few seasons. Have you seen ANY change in who is at the front of the grid??? :rolleyes:

I know this is a hard concept to swallow, and many just simply refuse to do so. And thats your choice.
But I have a feeling that all IT7 will accomplish with a spec toyo is running off alot of cars to ITA. Thats fine tough, its a good ITA car now.

Really want to spec a tire? Something that guarantees drivers are actually on equal ground on the most occassions? Spec a Hoosier or a Kumho. Tires that gain nothing by shaving them. Tires that can run up to 6 (or even 10) heat cycles without falling off if you care for them properly. THAT gets all the drivers on the "same" tires alot more often than the Toyos do.

Just some info.

Carry on...

[gprodracer]

OK,

Have your blow torches ready..

Toni Creighton comes on this board 4-6 weeks ago, and essentially asks the same question.....Initially, there were very few responses, then suddenly the topic catches fire, and soon there are 8 pages or so of very heated debate posted. Some questioned motives, family members, etc, and some were screaming that they never voted the first time, while others were saying that this forum wasn't inclusive enough, and suggested that there unnamed personal agendas.
Well, which is it?
And why aren't all of you who were involved in the first threads compliaining now? There were a lot of intelligent (and some not so) posts on this topic, but now that the question is asked again, we get a bunch of simple yes or no responses? Several argued with me that Toni should have said nothing, and let the rule be "rubber stamped" without letting you know it was up for vote. Silly me, I said that I thought it was a good idea to inform the participants about votes that would affect their class for the next year.

You all wonder why, or how things don't go the way you want them to?? I have absolutely no dog in this hunt, I was just posting in favor of keeping you all up to speed on whether rules would be voted on "with or without your input".
Sorry people, at this point you derserve what you get. Hopefully we've all learned something...
Mark

[Andy Bettencourt]

OK,

Sorry people, at this point you derserve what you get. Hopefully we've all learned something...
Mark
[/b]

Come on Mark! Why do the people have to keep posting that this method - as a singular - is simply NOT conclusive. It's a broken record. The people involved have made their feelings heard very loudly.

Those people who didn't get to vote this time because they didn't know they had to speak up again...it's THEIR fault? Toni is trying to help the whole Div. At least this RE is trying to decide on his own patch - but as has been pointed out, we have new IT.com users who may or may not be duplicates or even in division who won't sign their real name being counted as votes? HA!

Here is my take right now:

- The vast majority of the class was polled in 2004

- That produced a pro spec tire choice - specifically the Toyo

- A vocal minority has rammed an agenda through for an open tire rule

- A weak at best 'straw poll' has been taken with minimal 'offical' votes being recorded

- The spec tire rule will be repealed based on 'member input'

- The majority who wanted a spec tire last year and who didn't know this was up for debate (beacuse they were not notified in their monthly publications, e-mail or snail mail) will go ape-crap

- There will be no data to support the change other than hear-say. Questions as to why the change was made and where the official votes are will be dismissed because there won't be nearly the actual data there was in 2004

The whole thing just stinks of something fishy. Good luck to you IT7 drivers.

[lateapex911]

What he said......
at this point, it's almost comical.

[sgallimo]

And why aren't all of you who were involved in the first threads compliaining now? [/b]
I didn't feel it was necessary to repeat it again here. It's already duplicated in two different threads. And I assumed that Tere was able to read the other threads.


Sorry people, at this point you derserve what you get. Hopefully we've all learned something... [/b]
Excellent! Then I expect to hear that the IT-7 rules, as supported by the previous driving community majority, have been approved for another season or that, after completely and fairly polling the current driving community, new rules have been voted in -- new rules that accurately reflect the desires of the majority, just as the previous [current] rules have [do].

Something told me that it was going to be a very, very good day.

Not meaning to detract from your point that everyone needs to become involved in the governing and growth or our club...

[gprodracer]

Andy,

I'm at a loss here.. I'm pretty sure that we agree on most of the basic issues. Maybe I just haven't made my stance on them clear. MY opinion is that the spec tire rule should remain in place, as voted on by the overwhelming percentage of the IT7 drivers in the initial vote, which was polled in the most inclusive way possible back in 2004.
Now, the yearly? review of the rules comes around, and instead of keeping things as status quo, without letting the members know that a vote is taking place, Toni decides to post here that the RE's? are going to "rubber stamp" the existing rules. While I personally have no problem with that, if I was an IT7 driver, I would want to know if a rule that affects my class was being voted on!
Toni posts on this board to solicit opinions so the RE's have some sort of data as to what the IT7 community wants, but clearly states " they will vote with or without your imput". There is a HUGE amount of debate, both pro and con about the spec tire rule, and that Toni posted the message on here, which would not reach all the IT7 drivers.
So now the "vocal minority" (my words in an earlier post) are attempting to force a rule change. Please quote me from any previous posts where I state that I am in favor of an open tire rule for this class. All I have been in favor of is letting the members know about voting on the rules that affect their classes.

We have both recieved many PM's about this topic, there are many other forces at work here, but we are on the same side of this debate...Yes it is a "straw poll' I never said it wasn't, all I said was that they would vote on the rules with, or without the input....perioud
Mark

[GSHAMP]

Tere,

Unless you know these people or can identify them as from the SEDiv, unknown voters should not count if you are taking a poll on which to base your decision.
[/b]

SORRY. Your right, I should qualify myself. I am Steve Hampton. Sam Henderson's #3 and Brian Dobson's #6 crew chief. I also share driving the #70 IT7/A Rx7. I have been involved with this class since the beginning. You may not know me because I race instead of politic. Let's add that votes be multiplied by the number of races run over the course of the life of the IT7 class. Maybe even add the points accumulated.

[gprodracer]

What Scott said!!! :happy204:
To all who want to change the rule, get started on getting an all inclusive form of voting that is fair to both sides ( one vote for each competitor ) for NEXT YEAR. This will (at the very least) give the people who have invested in tires for this season the time to prepare for the possibility of a change. This won't affect the larger budget racers either way, but it could hurt a lot of the others, which would lower participation numbers.
There seems to be some level of politics going on here, but since I don't have that information, this method will give both sides ample time to prepare their respective cases, and will eliminate most of the "I didn't know a vote was being held" arguments. This seems to be the fairest approach.
Party on people!
Mark

[sgallimo]

SORRY. Your right, I should qualify myself. I am Steve Hampton. Sam Henderson's #3 and Brian Dobson's #6 crew chief. I also share driving the #70 IT7/A Rx7. I have been involved with this class since the beginning. You may not know me because I race instead of politic. Let's add that votes be multiplied by the number of races run over the course of the life of the IT7 class. Maybe even add the points accumulated.
[/b]
Hi Steve. Just to clarify this. You are suggesting that the folks who have driven the most races, or perhaps only the front runners, should have a larger say in the rules making process than the average competitor. Right? A departure from the "one member, one vote" mentality?

[it7rx739]

Sorry Jake I never raced on Toyos in the ARRC every time I win was Hoosier tire on my car.
Toyo tire never win the ARRC not even com close to that

[lateapex911]

Sorry Jake I never raced on Toyos in the ARRC every time I win was Hoosier tire on my car.
Toyo tire never win the ARRC not even com close to that
[/b]

Sorry, I stand corrected. But I seem to remember somenting unique to your tire set up from your win oon...either '04 or '05. Did you run the higher profile tire? Perhaps a 60 series?

BTW, isn't that the same avatar that Stacy with the Probe from California uses??

[it7rx739]

Yes, I used the 225x50x13 series before and mowed to 225x45x13.
The hit makes a lot off difference, especial the side wall flex mach smaller


Attila Lukacs

[dickita15]

I remember some one who qualified in the top 3 a couple of years ago on toyos. the year the field spent an hour on grid because a SM hit the timing beacon. not good at names was it maybe Jeff Ryan.

[it7rx739]

Yes,was Jeff Ryan.

[instigator]

That car you speak of is my personal car which several years of development and a very good driver to get it to that point. I am not capable of that level of driving yet but as I tried to inform evey one in years past you have to make significant changes to a car to get it to that level of performance and that cost money! I know I spent the money and time on that car to get it to that point. Jeff was not my only source for information Ricky Thompson was also another driver used, and yes even Attila Luckas was one of those drivers as well. I did my research worked on my car and got good results from my efforts on this tire. You can all do this as well and even the playing feild by working on your equipment and ask for help. The IT7 community has alot of racer's willing to get you to ther level of compition. we can make all the excuses we want a tire will not solve the problem. Removing competitors from our class based on tire preferance hurt our class even more. Those who say this is to help cost. It does not help cost for those who have devloped ther cars for other tire brands. I have another car that runs on a tire other than the spec tire and in order to run IT7 competatively it will cost money to do that as it will for other competetors with the same problem. Just some of my experiance on this issue.



Kurt Jackson IT7 #59 & #00

[GSHAMP]

Hi Steve. Just to clarify this. You are suggesting that the folks who have driven the most races, or perhaps only the front runners, should have a larger say in the rules making process than the average competitor. Right? A departure from the "one member, one vote" mentality?
[/b]

That's right! There you go with the politics again. Racing is a competitve event, not a social-political picnic. There are different levels of competition. Some race to win and will do whatever it takes to run up front. Any change in the rules requires time and money to get the most out of the rules. To some, it is an accealarating(sic) experience just to be on the track. They are not going to spend the time and money (in my personal case, they may not have the talent) to run up front. You are not entitled to win!

By the way, when the "VOTE" was taken on the spec tire, was the short Hoosier a choice? As I remember the Toyo was the only offering. That kind of smells!

The short Hoosier is the best tire in my opinion. It has sufficient life if you don't soak it and it is short enough to leave some suspension travel.

[lateapex911]

That's right! There you go with the politics again. Racing is a competitve event, not a social-political picnic.
[/b]

Very elitist!

So, for example, lets say you have 6 guys.
You want a system that gives more experience a bigger vote. So, lets say, a vote per year in the class.

Of the 6 guys, one has 4 yrs, votes yes, one has 2 yrs, votes yes, one has 2 years, votes no, and the rest have under 2 years and vote no.

Final tally is 2 yes votes for a score of 6
4 no votes for a score of 5

2 to 1 Yes, but No carries the day.

Think that will fly??

:rolleyes:

Oh...PS...this is Club racing...

[GSHAMP]

9
Very elitist!

So, for example, lets say you have 6 guys.
You want a system that gives more experience a bigger vote. So, lets say, a vote per year in the class.


[/b]

Interesting distortion of what I said. I never used years as a multiplier! Participation(events entered) and success(points scored) are the multipliers. Yes it is a club, but it's not a trade union or school based on seniority.

[lateapex911]

Interesting distortion of what I said.[/b]

No. Not a distortion. A simplification for the expediency of an example.


I never used years as a multiplier! Participation(events entered) and success(points scored) are the multipliers. Yes it is a club, but it's not a trade union or school based on seniority. [/b]

So your system wants to give the most power to those who can afford the time and money to race more often and score more points. (Those go hand in hand by the way, and talent and intellegence are only one factor in the matrix) If that's not elitist, then I better head to the dictionary.

Actually, I did. Wikipedia states:
"Elitism is a belief or attitude that elites — a selected group of persons whose personal abilities, wealth, specialised training or other attributes place them at the top of any field (see below) — are the people whose views on a matter are to be taken most seriously, or who are best fit to govern. Elitism may also be used to convey a less rational and more purely arrogant sense of entitlement to better treatment owing to wealth, social standing, etc."

I submit that this IS a club, and 150 drivers have a right to have their votes heard and counted...on an equal basis.

However, the issues facing a club or class can be complex, and experience is often, but not always, an important tool is being able to sort an issue out. For those reasons, it is common to have those with more experience serve on ad hoc commitees that guide classes and categories. But to have them decide what is best for the class based on their personal agenda....or to create a system that does the same....is no way to protect the health of the class.

Sometimes the masses may not understand the subtleties or the details of an issue. It's the class leaders job to help explain those. It must be done responsibly of course. Then poll the consituents. If the leaders truly knew better, then it will become obvious when the votes were counted that the masses "saw the light".

In my view, giving those who win more and race more the power to dictate the majorities future is going to result in disention and long term health issues for the class.

Again, I don't have a vote either way in the matter. But the process needs to be respected.

[GSHAMP]

If that's not elitist, then I better head to the dictionary.

Actually, I did. Wikipedia states:
[i]"Elitism is a belief or attitude that elites — a selected group of persons whose personal abilities, wealth, specialised training or other attributes place them at the top of any field (see below) — are the people whose views on a matter are to be taken most seriously, or who are best fit to govern.

SOUNDS GOOD!

I submit that this IS a club, and 150 drivers have a right to have their votes heard and counted...on an equal basis.

You need to go back to the dictionary and see that the democracy is not a part of the definition of club.

[chumpy36]

If that's not elitist, then I better head to the dictionary.

Actually, I did. Wikipedia states:
[i]"Elitism is a belief or attitude that elites — a selected group of persons whose personal abilities, wealth, specialised training or other attributes place them at the top of any field (see below) — are the people whose views on a matter are to be taken most seriously, or who are best fit to govern.

SOUNDS GOOD!

I submit that this IS a club, and 150 drivers have a right to have their votes heard and counted...on an equal basis.

You need to go back to the dictionary and see that the democracy is not a part of the definition of club.
[/b]


Good thing it doesn't work out that way. As evidenced by the recent vote.

BTW, Neither is oligarchy a part of the definition of club.

Club:

A group of people organized for a common purpose, especially a group that meets regularly

[jvarble]

Do they have spec tire rules in NASA ??
is there a class for 1st gen rx/7s ?
what is your longest race ?
where can we find out more on NASA?

[lateapex911]

Do they have spec tire rules in NASA ??
[/b]
yes, I think so.


is there a class for 1st gen rx/7s ?
[/b]
not really, they get lumped into the hugely confusing matrix of Performance tuning, a category mainly designed to ease the transition from Drivers ed/HPDE to racing, as it allows any mods (kinda) and tries to equalize all.


what is your longest race ?
[/b]
Who's longest race??


where can we find out more on NASA?
[/b]

Google is your friend. Took me 3 seconds to come up with:
http://www.nasaracing.net/

[chumpy36]

Do they have spec tire rules in NASA ??
is there a class for 1st gen rx/7s ?
what is your longest race ?
where can we find out more on NASA?
[/b]


Hi Joe,

At least I assume that's who you are. I'm actually a customer of yours. You've done my diff and tranny.

As for your questions. They do have a class for first Gen rx7s. It believe it would run in Perfromance Touring D.

It's based on performance calculations really.

A good place to start would be the SE region PT website which is:

www.pt-southeast.com

You can talk to the PT SE director Russ Marshall as well.

Then nasaproracing.com and nasa-southeast.com

There are no spec tires in Performance Touring I do not believe.

The longest race we've had is a 90 minute enduro but they are generally sprints - a double every event.

Let me know if you have any questions. I'll be happy to help

JAson Holland

[jvarble]

Thanks Jason
i'm the guy your thinking about.
i'll follow up on what you said.
thanks again