Tim K's Wet Line and Station 8 Video

[Tkczecheredflag]

Thought folks might like to see the Station 8 wet line in question, and one lap in the rain with me a LRP.

Station 8 - Uphill line
http://www.NeedMoreRacing.com/Video/TK_RainLine.wmv

One lap in the rain at LRP
http://www.NeedMoreRacing.com/Video/TK_OneLapRain.wmv

[RSTPerformance]

Tim-

Your line looks good... but you certainly made ssure that you didn't show all the secrets to a "perfect" lap as I can see you line was altered to pass cars. I will never forget when I figured out that line. I give huge credit to Tim Mathers for pointing out how I should be driving Lime Rock!!! I remember thinking I was super fast, then aftert talking to him I picked up an additional 4 seconds a lap!!!

My experience/suggestions :)

1) Big Bend - Did you miss the braking zone or do you actually use the escape road? As odd as it seams maybe it is fast? You would want to just be aware of traffic that may think you went "off course" and come diving into the turn...

2) The Left Hander - I think I cary a bit more speed through the turn... I turn in early or run the inside as you did, however when I hit the concrete the car skids across it like it is on ice then picks up grip on the outside of the turn near the exit. I still have plenty of room to get back to drivers left for the enterance to no name.

3) The Up Hill- I never went all the way out ylike you do, I do however run as you did on the "third clip" that you have in one of the links. Right out to the outside of the "normal pavement." I didn't have any time to experiment with the "new pavement" but it does look fast. My question is though isn't that pavement "off camber?" If so does the grip drop off or does it really get better?

4) I love passing people on the outside in the downhill on the rain, but it is risky!!! If that other person looses grip yikes!!! Most people though I am comfortable passing thier :)



Anyway Tim, thanks for showing everyone the top secret line... now our advantage is out the window!!!! (JK)

Raymond :happy204:

[lateapex911]

Cool vids Timmy! You and I use the EXACT same line in certain areaas.

To a person up in the flag stand it could seem that if you lose traction with your line that you'll auger in right in front of them.............but...so could a guy who loses traction on a earlier/tighter line.

[Magical Trevor]

Well, you certainly didn't use anything that wasn't already there.... but as I interpreted the rules that were posted in the other thread (the marked pavement), you were off (pretty far over the line).

[lateapex911]

Well, you certainly didn't use anything that wasn't already there.... but as I interpreted the rules that were posted in the other thread (the marked pavement), you were off (pretty far over the line).
[/b]

What rules??? Please quote for the source, (Lime Rock Supps, for instance) as opposed to repeating a quote of someone posting. I would be interested in learning the actual definition of the situation.

I suspect you'll find, as the Stewards did when they examined the situation, that there isn't a specific rule that makes his actions any less legal than the Miata that he passed in his video.

That said, it's probably being discussed as we speak, LOL. If thats the case, how should a "rule" about it read???

No tires over the white line? (Will need to define the start/end section of the white line, or hundreds of cars will be sanctioned at dozens of other spots around the track)
No four tires over the white line?
No line that could result in the front of the car aiming at the flaggers? (yes, thats impossible, isn't it? That's my point)
Any line, but only if not sliding? (Define sliding?)

His video was interesting. We saw him swallow the Alfa and the Miata. Was he out of control? Dangerous? It looked to me like he was smoother and more planted than the Alfa, that's for sure.

I think we should just resolve that the issue isn't Tim, not the Corner Captain, nor the pavement. It's the placement of the flag station reletive to the new guardrail. Because of the new configuration, an incident that occurred last year could, this year, be identical in every respect but the outcome.

Our system worked....Tim drove, the flagger objected, the tower said (presumably) sorry, no Black Flag needed, the Corner Captain objected, requested a ruling with a protest, and the Stewards looked into it, and ruled. No foul.

If anything changes, the flag station should be moved back to open the "catchers mitt" that now exists.

We don't need more rules.

[Magical Trevor]

I'm not sure I fully understand the line that was being taken here---but if it was as close to the station as i think it was--it seems to me that it was a driving infraction.

The GCR Rules of the Road in 9.1.4. "Off-Course Excursions" says "The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competion, and shalll not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion".

I had looked this up as i have seen other drivers using the off-camber pavment (off-course) going up the hill, and wondered if this is legal. The way I read the GCR, the line up the hill is marked as the main pavement, and I believe teh off-camber part is off-course. We all have a tendency to go a little over teh line, just as we use teh cirbs on exiting other corners at LRP. Teh question is what constitues "an off-course excursion".

I'd be intersted to hear what you guys think. If I understand what was happening, I have to sde with the corner captain that a black flag was in order. If the pavement up to the guard rail is part of the course, I have to start going faster up the hill.

Larry DuLude
LD71 :D
[/b]

I was referring to the above post.

Please make note of Tim's original topic subtitle- "Take a peek and judge for yourself".
I wasn't trying to argue anything.

[lateapex911]

The GCR Rules of the Road in 9.1.4. "Off-Course Excursions" says "The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competion, and shalll not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion".[/b]

Ah, well, that quote is rather contradictory. many times we run over the line at track out...and we most certainly DO gain an advantage. So if the white line is used to deliniate the "marked course", then we have violations all over the course. Or this isn't an issue and he's fine.

[Magical Trevor]

Ah, well, that quote is rather contradictory. many times we run over the line at track out...and we most certainly DO gain an advantage. So if the white line is used to deliniate the "marked course", then we have violations all over the course. Or this isn't an issue and he's fine.
[/b]

Yeah, I think the latter is really the case here.
I was simply viewing from technicality and again, not trying to argue a point. :dead_horse:

[Mattberg]

Good line. Fast line. In control and within the rules. End of story. Like I said, and I know it's a hard line and offensive to some, the flag captain who has NO experience racing as I understand, has NO right to protest this driver. He is totally in control and using the track allowed to be used under the rules. Someone really needs to tell him that. If he still feels in danger, walk off the corner and take it up with the CS. To give a driver grief for this is unacceptable.

[Scott Koschwitz]

Tim, the line you run is the text-book line I learned at Skip Barber. The only real difference is that you go farther left in the Uphill, which was impossible when I went to school because the aarmco wasn't pushed back then.

Your line works. There's fresh pavement on driver's left in the Uphill, which I imagine provides more grip compared to the older pavement on the "traditional" rain line in the Uphill. While you have to steer right towards the top of the Uphill, it doesn't appear to compromise your speed or grip.

Granted, the perspective from the workers station at the top of the Uphill is different, but the in-car video you posted shows that you were in control of your car through the Uphill. Of course, I didn't experience having a car nearly land in the station during an earlier qualifying session either.

On another note, your video clearly shows how much faster the rain line is compared with dry line in the wet. I was surprised to see some drivers drive much closer to the dry line in those conditions in the Uphill and the Downhill. Your video shows how much speed they are surrendering.

[Andy Bettencourt]

On another note, your video clearly shows how much faster the rain line is compared with dry line in the wet. I was surprised to see some drivers drive much closer to the dry line in those conditions in the Uphill and the Downhill. Your video shows how much speed they are surrendering. [/b]

Actually, I will disagree somewhat here. The amount of distance Tim has added seems to add time in my mind. He also has to enter slightly more conservativly becsue there is no room for error. I ran my video side by side with Tim's and I feel these are factors in overall time. Our segment times are identical (ones that I used from visual cues from the video - rough but repeatable) and speeds into West Bend are equal. Food for thought.

I think Tim was on the Hoosier Wet tire (as was I) so the only differnce was the car (he in an Acura and me in a Miata).

I will try and post the video. Good discussion overall.

I am praying for dry weather for the NHIS double so Time and I actually get to race side by side for the first time this year...

[lateapex911]

Thats a good point Andy, and it is SO apples to Oranges to try and make comparisions.

Maybe the line Tim took was best for his car in that condition. Or maybe not. I bet he was on a dry setup, which guess correctly means springs in the 1000 pound rate up front, and damping to match, plus swaybars set for dry.

It's interesting to see the "changing of the guard" in the rain, when cars that aren't always front runners do well. THe RX-7 in particular seems more rain friendly than you'd expect.

And even though Tim shot by the Miata in his video, we need to be careful in assessing his speed to just his line. We know nothing about the Miata, except what we see. The driver could have been playing it conservative, or on dry tires or any of a number of things.

Bottom line though is that Tims line was fine...for TIm...but the corner workers thought otherwise.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Thats a good point Andy, and it is SO apples to Oranges to try and make comparisions.

[/b]

Agreed 100%. Maybe I will line up next to him in the rain next time! :)

As far as that Miata (a SM on Toyo's), it's qual time was a 1:26.6. Tim's was a 1:22.7, mine was a 1:19.9 and Benazic smoked us all with a 1:17.8.

Can't wait for NHIS already.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Actually, I will disagree somewhat here. The amount of distance Tim has added seems to add time in my mind. He also has to enter slightly more conservativly becsue there is no room for error. I ran my video side by side with Tim's and I feel these are factors in overall time. Our segment times are identical (ones that I used from visual cues from the video - rough but repeatable) and speeds into West Bend are equal. Food for thought.

I think Tim was on the Hoosier Wet tire (as was I) so the only differnce was the car (he in an Acura and me in a Miata).

I will try and post the video. Good discussion overall.

I am praying for dry weather for the NHIS double so Time and I actually get to race side by side for the first time this year...
[/b]
Andy, love to see the side by side video. As the times tell no lies I am not convicned it is the fastest way around but still like it for safety.

Saturday at NHIS with the south chicane - i love the double chicanes (i'm in the minority) - will records fall???. We can door handle to door handle on Sunday if I can keep up with you. See ya in a couple of weeks.
tim

[benspeed]

I think Tim has balls of steel to put the vid up knowing that his driving is going to be critiqued by the folks trafficking this site!

Classic line I learned at Skippy school - also takes some balls to run it. (And the gals racing have plenty)

[Tkczecheredflag]

I think Tim has balls of steel to put the vid up knowing that his driving is going to be critiqued by the folks trafficking this site!

Classic line I learned at Skippy school - also takes some balls to run it. (And the gals racing have plenty)
[/b]

FYI - I did offer the video to the Officials to be reviewed while the protest was being considered. If I the line was wrong is was willing admit it and take my licks, say my "I'm sorries" and move on.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Tim-

Your line looks good... but you certainly made ssure that you didn't show all the secrets to a "perfect" lap as I can see you line was altered to pass cars. I will never forget when I figured out that line. I give huge credit to Tim Mathers for pointing out how I should be driving Lime Rock!!! I remember thinking I was super fast, then aftert talking to him I picked up an additional 4 seconds a lap!!!

My experience/suggestions :)

1) Big Bend - Did you miss the braking zone or do you actually use the escape road? As odd as it seams maybe it is fast? You would want to just be aware of traffic that may think you went "off course" and come diving into the turn...

Missed the breaking zone - I have a new thought about that area.


2) The Left Hander - I think I cary a bit more speed through the turn... I turn in early or run the inside as you did, however when I hit the concrete the car skids across it like it is on ice then picks up grip on the outside of the turn near the exit. I still have plenty of room to get back to drivers left for the enterance to no name.

[/b]Usually do the "Skippy Slide" through the left hander. I was trying a different line - don't think it was better.

3) The Up Hill- I never went all the way out ylike you do, I do however run as you did on the "third clip" that you have in one of the links. Right out to the outside of the "normal pavement." I didn't have any time to experiment with the "new pavement" but it does look fast. My question is though isn't that pavement "off camber?" If so does the grip drop off or does it really get better?

Never got on the "new pavement", although I did get 4 wheels on the old (I'm sure that didn't help Station 8 feel safer) - I heard it is off camber but have no direct knowledge.

4) I love passing people on the outside in the downhill on the rain, but it is risky!!! If that other person looses grip yikes!!! Most people though I am comfortable passing thier :)
Anyway Tim, thanks for showing everyone the top secret line... now our advantage is out the window!!!! (JK)

If you have to pick your spots - that one is probally my favorite - agreed that you need to get it done and be on your way quickly and safely.
Thanks Raymond!
Raymond :happy204: