The Tim K LRP Qualifying Story

[Tkczecheredflag]

I was the ITA dirver that was protested. The protest was for driving off the race line in an unsafe manner.

First I want to say that I hold SCCA in the highest regard. In short I love this club. My roots in SCCA stem from F&C - I flagged for 4 years before I set foot into a race car in 1997. I am incredibly grateful for all the volunteers that make our events safe and fun, second to none are the Corner Workers - You guys (the unisex version of guys) are great!! - Thank You for your generosity and time and for keeping us safe. I also want to say that the SOM, Chief, Chair, Driver Rep and all Officals and Stewards who considered the protest were professional and courteous. We have rules that govern us and I beleive they exist, in part, to keep ALL of us safe and hopefully leave room for improvement. Anything I say about the protest is my response, read that as my version, and in no way meant to minimze the process, the outcome, or what happened. I consider this a seriuos issue. Okay?

Anyone who has raced with me at LRP prior to this year knows I love LRP in the rain. Call me sick but rain can be the great equlaizer especcaially if you know, and are comfortable, with the "wet line." In the uphill between Station 7 and 8 I have always run a wide, a drivers side left "wet race line". Many who have seen me think it's a bit carzy- I used to run extremely close to the ARMCO in the uphill (how close? I could touch it with my hand close) - anyone who has tried it knows that it's the safest place on the track in compromising, wet conditions. I must also ad that it is not neccessarily the fastest wet race line but it is the safest. On this section of track I like to place the car just off the "traditonal" racing surface on a section that I will term "run-off" - a section of asphalt that is rough (rougher than the "regular" track surface), and provides tremendous grip. I can't tell you all my secrets about this line, although I will ad that most are afraid to run out there as it is some what intimidating to the driver. I will say that one key for me were the Hoosier Dirt Stockers although now I use the new Molded Rains - a tremendous wet tire (your welcome - I love you too Bob Smart) Keep in mind that this is the area now termed "widow maker" (sexest to say the least), and has now been expanded with additonal new asphalt and a ARMCO extension. - I no way have I used the new asphalt surface or am I an advocate for using the new surface. The surface that I use is the "old" asphalt. On that note I suspect, based on what I have been told, that this great secret will be taken away. That would sadden me because I beleive it would compromise the safest part of the track, the best wet race line at LRP.

Prior to the expansion of this section of track my wet line has never been in question, Due to recent events (read that as wrecks), one as early as this weekend- I beleive the Corner Workers were feeling at risk of injury and this is seemed to be a good "stepping off point" in an effort to correct the problem. In an early session a SM got into trouble and compromised the safety of the corner workers so I completely unsderstand the issue. The workes unfamilar with my line were feeling at risk - that was the issue.

In the end Officals and Stewards did not uphold the protest - No rules were violated. I made it a point to wait until the day was over, and with cold beer in hand, offered my apoligies to the the corener captian and his team for scaring them, trying to reasure them I had the car under control.

I'm not sure what will happen going forward but my hope is this: If a referrence to "white lines" appear in the supps and if LRP re-paints the "white line" in the uphill - paint the line left of the "Old Surface" between the new and old surface leaving the safest part of the track available for racing. Whatever we need to do in an effort to keep the Corner Workers safe - DO IT.

Happy Fathers Day to all the Dad's - God Bless the Mom's for making it happen - It's great to be a Dad.

[lateapex911]

Good post Tim.

My take on it was that it might not have been about Tim, but he was the right guy in the right place doing the right thing at the wrong time.

Fact is it is awfully hard to protest him and win based on calling his actions "Dangerous", as that's awfully hard to define. And as there aren't any "No fly zones" that I am aware of in the GCR ot the Supps relating to that corner, it makes the protest against him much less winnable.

Tim told me, (correct me if I mis-state this Tim) that he didn't use any pavement that he didn't use pre corner changes in the rain. Obviously this is NOT an area used in the dry.

However, the flaggers felt threatened as never before, obviously.

To me, then, Tim isn't the villian, but changes that created a new outlook from the flaggers on the scene, are to blame. That seems awfully obvious.

(I heard one flagger who aso races, who was at the corner when the Flag Captain posted his protest say, if I understood him correctly, that he thought Tims line was pretty out there, but if he was behind the wheel he'd be out there searching for the same traction as well. That's an illuminating)

[Tkczecheredflag]

Good post Tim.

My take on it was that it might not have been about Tim, but he was the right guy in the right place doing the right thing at the wrong time.

Tim told me, (correct me if I mis-state this Tim) that he didn't use any pavement that he didn't use pre corner changes in the rain. Obviously this is NOT an area used in the dry.

[/b]

I beleive the wrong place wrong time theory is a good one Jake.

It was obvious to me that corner captian has never seen me run this line (pre track changes or post), and I probally feel that he may have never seen anyone one run this uncommon line. When I explained that I used to run within inches of the ARMCO (pre track changes) he had time believing me or that this was possible. There was also concern from the Station 8 about me putting more than two wheels "drivers left" of the white line. After watching my video I confess that I put four wheels left of the white line once and only once, not that this made a difference to me regarding safety - we were still on the safest surface available.

I have several SCCA race videos of rain races at LRP running this line, all of which include a victory lap. Truth be told we always gave the boys and girls in ITA a good run in the rain using this line with the "C" car - case in point the 2005 NARRC-OFFS when we finsihed 3rd overall.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I would like to learn from this. Maybe some long-time Stewards or Corner Chiefs can chime in.

Here is my question: Why no black flag for Tim if he was driving in such a (perceived) manner as to incur the wrath of a protest from a corner station? I would think that if he was irratic, dangerous to himself, the corner workers or the rest of us drivers, they would have given him first a closed black flag, then an open black flag as allowed by the GCR. Seemingly, none of this happened and I wonder why...if the offense was so severe that it warrented a corner station protesting his qualifying session.

I am however, very excited to see some ACTION from corners who see something they feel is wrong, I just think this was very extreme. I would love to hear the other side of the story. The workers in NER are the best at their craft and the more we can learn from each other, the better the races will be.

(In case there is any confusion, at the track I offered Tim my full support as a driver on track with him)

[Tkczecheredflag]

I would like to learn from this. Maybe some long-time Stewards or Corner Chiefs can chime in.

Here is my question: Why no black flag for Tim if he was driving in such a (perceived) manner as to incur the wrath of a protest from a corner station? I would think that if he was irratic, dangerous to himself, the corner workers or the rest of us drivers, they would have given him first a closed black flag, then an open black flag as allowed by the GCR. Seemingly, none of this happened and I wonder why...if the offense was so severe that it warrented a corner station protesting his qualifying session.

I am however, very excited to see some ACTION from corners who see something they feel is wrong, I just think this was very extreme. I would love to hear the other side of the story. The workers in NER are the best at their craft and the more we can learn from each other, the better the races will be.

(In case there is any confusion, at the track I offered Tim my full support as a driver on track with him)
[/b]

At about the third or fourth lap through as I was clearing Station 8 I did notice a a furled flag pointing to drivers right. I was not clear as to the color ( I was a little busy). I didn't know what to think. I shared this information with the Race Officials and Stewards when questioned susequent to them visiting Station 8 during the lunch beak My understanding of a "furled black" is that it is a Start/Finish or designated "black flag station" - flag only ( I could be wrong about this), and that it might accompany a car number and be followed by a open black and car number. Now the Corner Captain is routinely at Start/Finish and may have been using his descretion for a closed black but I was unfamiliar with this practice and like I said could not make out the color. No flag was displayed on the next lap at Station 8. Keep peddlin' right?

[Andy Bettencourt]

At about the third or fourth lap through as I was clearing Station 8 I did notice a a furled flag pointing to drivers right. I was not clear as to the color ( I was a little busy). I didn't know what to think. I shared this information with the Race Officials and Stewards when questioned susequent to them visiting Station 8 during the lunch beak My understanding of a "furled black" is that it is a Start/Finish or designated "black flag station" - flag only ( I could be wrong about this), and that it might accompany a car number and be followed by a open black and car number. Now the Corner Captain is routinely at Start/Finish and may have been using his descretion for a closed black but I was unfamiliar with this practice and like I said could not make out the color. No flag was displayed on the next lap at Station 8. Keep peddlin' right? [/b]

My read on the GCR is that the furled flag (first warning) is to be displayed at Starters stand with optional number board. Open black flag is to be displayed at SS as well with a manditory number board. The open flag can also be displayed at another flag station accompanied with a number board. (2006 GCR page 57)

[Greg Amy]

Now the Corner Captain is routinely at Start/Finish and may have been using his descretion for a closed black...[/b]

Individual stations do NOT have the discretion to produce furled (or open) black flags without express direction from the stewards of the meet. If this actually happened, that you received a furled black from that station - and especially if it was done without expressed instructions from the tower - this is MOST DECISIVELY contrary to the GCR and subject to sanction. - GA

[dickita15]

You are right that the station can not give you a furled Black on there own and reliable first hand witnesses told be they did not. Now they did wave something but it was not a black flag. May have been a tire iron. :lol: They were pretty freaked out.

The corner captain, who I know was sincere did repeatedly ask that Tim be black flagged during the session and was disappointed that the tower did not respond. He felt the tower showed him disrespect by not fulfilling his request so he protested.

I do not believe that Tim’s driving was a rule infraction so I would have been upset if he was black flagged. If there is doubt I believe it is better to argue it after the session than do a black flag. A black flag is a bullet you can not put back in the gun.

[Tkczecheredflag]

You are right that the station can not give you a furled Black on there own and reliable first hand witnesses told be they did not. Now they did wave something but it was not a black flag. May have been a tire iron. :lol: They were pretty freaked out.

The corner captain, who I know was sincere did repeatedly ask that Tim be black flagged during the session and was disappointed that the tower did not respond. He felt the tower showed him disrespect by not fulfilling his request so he protested.

I do not believe that Tim’s driving was a rule infraction so I would have been upset if he was black flagged. If there is doubt I believe it is better to argue it after the session than do a black flag. A black flag is a bullet you can not put back in the gun.
[/b]
Dick - It goes along with the wrong place, wrong time, right situation theory. The protest was not upheld because no rules were broken and I do beleive this had as much to do with F&C as it did with me. Now that I think about it your right, it probally was a tire iron. Again, I apologize publically for any concern I caused relating to Station 8's safety.

[LD71]

I'm not sure I fully understand the line that was being taken here---but if it was as close to the station as i think it was--it seems to me that it was a driving infraction.

The GCR Rules of the Road in 9.1.4. "Off-Course Excursions" says "The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competion, and shalll not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion".

I had looked this up as i have seen other drivers using the off-camber pavment (off-course) going up the hill, and wondered if this is legal. The way I read the GCR, the line up the hill is marked as the main pavement, and I believe teh off-camber part is off-course. We all have a tendency to go a little over teh line, just as we use teh cirbs on exiting other corners at LRP. Teh question is what constitues "an off-course excursion".

I'd be intersted to hear what you guys think. If I understand what was happening, I have to sde with the corner captain that a black flag was in order. If the pavement up to the guard rail is part of the course, I have to start going faster up the hill.

Larry DuLude
LD71 :D

[JLawton]

I'm not sure I fully understand the line that was being taken here---but if it was as close to the station as i think it was--it seems to me that it was a driving infraction.

The GCR Rules of the Road in 9.1.4. "Off-Course Excursions" says "The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competion, and shalll not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion".

I had looked this up as i have seen other drivers using the off-camber pavment (off-course) going up the hill, and wondered if this is legal. The way I read the GCR, the line up the hill is marked as the main pavement, and I believe teh off-camber part is off-course. We all have a tendency to go a little over teh line, just as we use teh cirbs on exiting other corners at LRP. Teh question is what constitues "an off-course excursion".

I'd be intersted to hear what you guys think. If I understand what was happening, I have to sde with the corner captain that a black flag was in order. If the pavement up to the guard rail is part of the course, I have to start going faster up the hill.

Larry DuLude
LD71 :D
[/b]


Tim was on the pavement and there are no lines on the track. In fact, Tim wasn't even onto the new pavement. How could that we considered off course?? Or gaining an advantage? It's not like running "below the line" in NASCAR. No where does it say (in track rules or supps) that you can't run certain areas of the track.

Therefore, any pavement at Lime Rock is fair game.......

It's certainly not like Tim is a reckless driver (unlike Crazy Joe :lol: ). Just the opposite! I think Tim's response was handled with class and the point is/was, that someone had an agenda and was trying to make a statement.

[Jeremy Billiel]

I am assuming that everyone else was running the rain line? The rain line at LRP requires you to run around the extreme outside of the uphill and I am curious why Tim was singled out on this if everyone was running the rain line.

The uphill in the rain on the dry line is VERY slippery. Ask me how I know! :D

[Andy Bettencourt]

I am assuming that everyone else was running the rain line? The rain line at LRP requires you to run around the extreme outside of the uphill and I am curious why Tim was singled out on this if everyone was running the rain line.

The uphill in the rain on the dry line is VERY slippery. Ask me how I know! :D [/b]

Tim's line is most extreme...and with the new rails at the top of the hill (and a SM that jumped them and hit the protector fence for the workers earlier in the day) the workers felt they needed to do something. Seemingly with no support from the PTB, they protested.

Bottom line? Tim's line was no different than it has been in the past and cooler heads prevailed.

Besides, maybe he will change it - his line can't be that fast if a Miata beat him in a rain Qual!!! :P :P :P

Man I can't wait for the NARRC Runoffs...maybe no Prod cars will show...

[LD71]

I hope I can post this picture(s) here---with credit and apologies to Clark Nichols.

I was suggesting that driving to the left of the white line appears to be "off-course". Maybe the white line is wiped away by now? To me, the pavement color (without the line) appears to mark th boundary---maybe you guys see it differently?

If Tim (and others including myself) was driving to the right of the white line, then I don't see what the fuss is all about. If to the left, looks like off-course to me.

Larry DuLude
LD71 :D

[attachmentid=471]

[attachmentid=472]

[Bill Miller]

I'm not sure I fully understand the line that was being taken here---but if it was as close to the station as i think it was--it seems to me that it was a driving infraction.

The GCR Rules of the Road in 9.1.4. "Off-Course Excursions" says "The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competion, and shalll not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion".

Larry DuLude
LD71 :D
[/b]

Larry,

The GCR Glossary doesn't define an "off-course excursion", but I think an operational definition is that the paved area is part of the course, considering that the rule that you cited says 'follow the pavement'. When a section of pavement would not be considered part of the course, is when it is isolated or sectioned off, similar to the kink at the top of the hill that they use for the Sports Cars.


The corner captain, who I know was sincere did repeatedly ask that Tim be black flagged during the session and was disappointed that the tower did not respond. He felt the tower showed him disrespect by not fulfilling his request so he protested.
[/b]

Dick,

I find this a bit disturbing. I support the tower for not black flagging Tim, as he violated no rule, and had no mechanical problems. And if the corner captain felt that he was right, and wanted to protest someone, he should have protested the person in the tower that decided not to black flag Tim, not Tim. This is an example of workers disregarding the rules, and in my opinion, could easily be considered a vexatious protest by the corner captain.

I have the greatest respect for our workers, but I believe that this is a case of them over-stepping their authority. From Dick's comment, the corner captain was pissed at the tower, so he was going to take it out on Tim. I applaud the stewards for not upholding the protest, but I think the corner captain should have been sanctioned for his actions.

[dickita15]

Well Bill, there was a lot going on and I am sure the captain was frustrated. He is certainly within his rights to protest any driver’s behavior. With out having proof that the driver was guilty of dangerous driving the captain would not have much of a case against the PTB. I am supportive of Tim in this protest and it is a shame that he had to waste 2 hours of dealing with, however I do not believe the corner crew acted in an inappropriate manner at any time.

From the first time reports I have Tim’s rain line is radically different than any other car that was running that day but that is his right.

Larry the white line is very faded but it exists, it’s just that there is nothing in the supps or the GCR that prohibits crossing it.

[zracre]

If that were the case, everyone at PIR would be D'Qed for using the new pavement instead of driving into gravel...if it is paved and there is nothing in the supps that mentions it, i would think you can drive there. espec considering the status of the white line...pretty faded with new pavement there i can see the confusion...and if there is more traction out there...thats where id be! Daytona has an access road just out of the horseshoe...everyone uses it to open the exit of the corner...same white line situation except no corner station or barriers.

[Bill Miller]

Well Bill, there was a lot going on and I am sure the captain was frustrated. He is certainly within his rights to protest any driver’s behavior. [/b]


Actually Dick, he's not. That's where the whole 'bad faith' and 'vexatious' protest issue comes in. You can't just protest someone because you don't like how they drive (provided that they haven't broken any rules). And I suspect that this person knew that they wouldn't get any traction w/ a protest against the person in the tower, not to mention that they would have probably been black-balled, so, he did what he thought he could get away with, protest the driver.

I look at it this way, if you're on station, and you call something in, and the tower says that it's ok, then that should be the end of it. Especially if you call it in more than once, and are told the same thing.

[dickita15]

Bill we can continue to disagree. I do have the advantage however of knowing all the players involved in this little drama and know each was guided by what they believe was right from their perspective.

Time to move on.

[Bill Miller]

Bill we can continue to disagree. I do have the advantage however of knowing all the players involved in this little drama and know each was guided by what they believe was right from their perspective.

Time to move on.
[/b]


Works for me Dick. :birra:

[dpc]

AMEN--- dave

[Tkczecheredflag]

I'm not sure I fully understand the line that was being taken here---but if it was as close to the station as i think it was--it seems to me that it was a driving infraction.

The GCR Rules of the Road in 9.1.4. "Off-Course Excursions" says "The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competion, and shalll not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion".

I had looked this up as i have seen other drivers using the off-camber pavment (off-course) going up the hill, and wondered if this is legal. The way I read the GCR, the line up the hill is marked as the main pavement, and I believe teh off-camber part is off-course. We all have a tendency to go a little over teh line, just as we use teh cirbs on exiting other corners at LRP. Teh question is what constitues "an off-course excursion".

I'd be intersted to hear what you guys think. If I understand what was happening, I have to sde with the corner captain that a black flag was in order. If the pavement up to the guard rail is part of the course, I have to start going faster up the hill.

Larry DuLude
LD71 :D
[/b]
Larry - With all due respect I believe the referrence to the "marked course" is applicable to an airport course configuration. The referrence to the "pavement" is applicable to the a race track configuation. I looked at your pictures and I was putting two wheels over the faded white line with exception of once, when I put all four over the line. I must ad that I didn't notice the line as I was watching the track ahead and the flaggers station. I ibeleive that I was was using the safest part of the track available for the current conditions. ALL of us compromise the "line" at various parts of the track at LRP - So I would be hard pressed to think that we are ALL having Off-Course Excursions

Again - I hold the Station Captian and his team in the highest regard and still beleive that with the smallest of inconvenience the sytem worked. In no way am I trying to defend my driving although I believe I was driving safely. My greater regret is that I made Station 8 fear for their safety.

Sorry I didn't read the end of the thread first.

No need to turn this into a pissing match. The system worked. Hopefully the Comp Board will look at this issue and adjust the "supps" if necessary.

I would also suggest that Skippy as well as many of the clubs not teach this line, as the "wet line", although it is a good and safe one.

Keep the peace my brothers and sisters! :rolleyes:

[StephF]

You are correct that Skippy teaches that line. That&#39;s what I was taught in my SBRS school. I believe that they called it a "rim shot". You crossed the dry line in such a fashion as to minimize contact with it, and used the absolute outside of turns such as the uphill to shoot around it. It does work pretty darn well, too. I&#39;ve had two wheels over the line, but never 4, at least not with the old configuration. <_<
I haven&#39;t been to LRP yet this season, hope to do so on July 4. I&#39;ll reserve comment on all of this until I see the setup and how it all flows. Hopefully, we can come to an agreeable place for competitors, workers, and the facility.

[Mattberg]

Interesting....

First I&#39;d want to know a couple of things. Has the flag worker ever driven a racecar? Has the flag worker ever driven Lime Rock? Can the flag worker quote passages from Carroll Smith&#39;s "Tune to Win"? :happy204:

Personal thoughts aside, if the driver was truely doing something inherently dangerous there might be cause for action. But that said, determining such requires a high level of expertise, hence the aforementioned questions. If all of the above were answered "no" you&#39;d have to rely on erratic behavior of some sort and it sounds like that was not part of the equation. It sounds to me that it was just a question of line and the driver was simply using a different part of the road. If there&#39;s something wrong with that, you better be a goddamn expert to call someone on it because that&#39;s racing.

Personal thoughts lead me a different direction. This guy had no right, experienced or not, to question non-erratic driving on a different line. Personally I wouldn&#39;t want this guy on a flag station period. He&#39;s the epitome of what&#39;s wrong with this club. The job is to inform drivers and respond to "situations" not critique driving. Unfortunately too many workers, God bless them, who&#39;ve had little or no experience in the car on track think they know about driving from standing on a corner. Sorry, just not the case. To make a determination on a driver&#39;s driving line is like a bankrupt guy telling Bill Gates he&#39;s not making money the right way.

It sounds to me like this worker wanted to strut his stuff and got appropriately snubbed by the powers that be. In response he filed a protest to protect his wounded ego and protect the thought that he knew what he was talking about. Pretty sad. If he truly felt their was danger he should have ordered his workers off the corner and left it to the SOM to deal with the situation. I doubt the other workers would have concurred. But even so, if he felt it was putting workers in danger than he endangered everyone around him by not doing so. He&#39;s wrong any way you cut it.

Bottom line is we drive and flaggers flag. You feel in danger, walk away. We&#39;ll deal with it. You want to stay and critique driving lines through protests that hassle drivers who provide the resources and cash for your enjoyment and hobby? Find someone who&#39;ll listen. Good luck. :wacko: Too many non-driving participants are trying to determine what, where and how we race. It&#39;s why we&#39;re losing out to other organizations.

Last and most important is that the Chief Steward is to blame for the whole mess. WHo was it? THis should have been taken care of with a single radio communication. An idiot on a corner thinking he&#39;s David Hobbs is one thing, but a leader who lets it escalate is not in control OR is as inexperienced and oblivious to racing as the corner worker. When what pavement we use, as long as it&#39;s part of the track, begins to become a judgement call it&#39;s not racing anymore. B)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Matt,

I think you are taking a really hard line here. There seemingly were some factors that led up to the issue.

1. The &#39;widow maker&#39; was the talk of the paddock as most of us had not seen it until we were out on track (in the rain).

2. In the first run group, an SSM car went up OVER the rail and hit the catch fence in front of the corner station in question.

3. What do you expect the CS to do? The call was made to BF, it was rejected - not once but maybe twice - by the CS presumably...and the corner captain filed a protest. The CS has no control over any of these actions, retaliatory or not. You can only expect for them to be dealt with expediciously when they present themselves.

4. I don&#39;t think any worker wanted to &#39;strut his stuff&#39;. I think they were concerned, had an incident earlier in the day (4 sessions) and wanted action. They didn&#39;t get it and they proceeded how they thought best.

I disagree wholeheartedly that any papers should have been filed on the driver and that a closed-door meeting between the parties involved would have solved the problem as well as set new expectations going forward.

It was a situation that I can understand from all 3 sides and am glad that Tim got to keep his place on grid. Hopefully we can all learn from it...but I would hardly call it "epitome of what&#39;s wrong with this club".

But maybe I just believe everyone starts out with good intentions.

[gran racing]

2. In the first run group, an SSM car went up OVER the rail and hit the catch fend in front of the corner station in question.[/b]

Are there any pictures of this incident?

[Tkczecheredflag]

Matt - I too feel you&#39;re being a bit tough. I appreciate your thoughts but think that you&#39;re "off the regualr race line too." At the end of the day the system worked, no one got hurt, egos intact, cars were in one piece. I angree with Andy on his points - That is there were several points of view all of which had integrity. Yes there were minor inconveniences but they were all inthe interst of saftey - We can never put too much emphasis on saftey.

One of the Corner Workers is national license holder who I race with - He said he was a bit un-nerved with my line at the station. If someone has web space with for a few megs available I will send some video of a couple of laps at the corner and we can all take a peek. I continue to say it&#39;s the safest part of the track although no one would beleive it unless you put your car out there - Caution, you&#39;ll need to bring a wheel barrel for your balls first (not sure what the girls use), it&#39;s not a comfortable line, but a lot of fun.

[lateapex911]

Personally I wouldn&#39;t want this guy on a flag station period. He&#39;s the epitome of what&#39;s wrong with this club.
[/b]

No Matt, that&#39;s yet another silly goofy statement you make to gain headlines and "Sound bites" for your position. You know better. Puleeez...we&#39;re not idiots here.




Bottom line is we drive and flaggers flag. [/b]

Uh no. Flaggers race and racers flag. I have personally run races within an inch of all four sides of the car raced by a flagger who worked that corner that day. He&#39;s a flagger, AND a racer. Or, maybe I should say he&#39;s a racer AND a flagger. I know dozens of guys who drive and flag, or drive and tech, or drive and officiate, or drive and write rules....or drive AND do whatever FOR the club.

How many hours of flagging and flag training do you have? You need to walk a mile in the other guys shoes...it will do us all good, as at least you&#39;ll be off the soapbox for a while...
;)


(I think we should ALL work various positions around the organization to better learn how the operation works, and to appreciate the roles people play. I&#39;ve gotten my feet wet on the track flagging, spent some time in tech, done a few race chair things, and served on Ad Hoc commitees. I&#39;m no expert in any single area, but it has been enlightening.)




Last and most important is that the Chief Steward is to blame for the whole mess.
[/b]

100% wrong. As pointed out above, that&#39;s completely incorrect. The system worked. Period. If you want to blame somebody, and I know your day just doesn&#39;t feel complete if you&#39;re not slinging arrows at someone, sling a few at LRP for not thinking thru the entire corner reconfiguration.

[gran racing]

Before I learned that a Miata went flying towards them earlier in the day, I thought it was a bit crazy to protest Tim and that line. But after learning that, it really explained things and the rationale behind it. As most others have stated, this wasn&#39;t about Tim - it was about a corner they felt was unsafe to work. I don&#39;t think that Tim should have been black flagged (as he wasn&#39;t), but this protest demonstrates how serious the workers were about being afraid out there. Don&#39;t forget - they are volunteers, and get paid nothing. In my opinion, the easy way out would have been for them to have told the Chief Steward "I&#39;m done working this station - get someone else to do it."

When we race, we accept that there are some risks involved with the sport. Someone who volunteers should not have to accept the same risks.

[Magical Trevor]

Are there any pictures of this incident?
[/b]

It&#39;s not much, but there&#39;s a picture of the fence after the accident.
This was interesting because it sounds like a direct result of the tires that have been placed in front of the "widowmaker"-without the tires it probably would have been worse for the driver.
http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/lrp1/images/DSC_2438.jpg

[Mattberg]

It&#39;s racing guys. My point is that he should have talked to the CS and gone over and chatted with the driver. A protest is a truly overt action and is perceived certain ways. None good in this case. No reason for it. And BTW a flagger is a flagger when he&#39;s flagging. A flagger can&#39;t be a racer when he&#39;s not belted in. No better than a Monday morning quarterback. Hard line? Yea, sure. But officials assume far too big a role in what we do and it really needs to be curtailed.

And safety is important too but for one man to make that call who is not a driver (I understand there was one at the station) is just not right. Furthermore, I don&#39;t know many serious drivers with contiguous ongoing racing efforts. Just the way it goes. I&#39;ve never met a racer who says "I&#39;d rather be flagging"... unless the wife is really tough and divorce is out of the question.

We gotta&#39; get officials out of the racing picture. RFA&#39;s against drivers by non-racing officials even when the drivers say it was a racing incident is all too common. You want to sit on a corner and make judgements on driving? Go right ahead but I think the right to protest by workers and officials should be removed. You want to get in the mix and speak your opinion? Get off that corner station, get a second job, divorce the wife and strap on the belts. Otherwise leave the racing to the racers. If you feel unsafe, leave the corner, take your crew with you if they agree and let the CS sort it out.

[StephF]

I continue to say it&#39;s the safest part of the track although no one would beleive it unless you put your car out there - Caution, you&#39;ll need to bring a wheel barrel for your balls first (not sure what the girls use), it&#39;s not a comfortable line, but a lot of fun.
[/b]

Personally, I use a dump truck Tim.

You know Matt....you haven&#39;t changed since the 1980&#39;s. Like the time you destroyed an S2 and blamed eveyone under the sun for your moves on track. Yeah, I was there. I watched it come back in baskets. The whole incident was stupid.
If this club is so frigging terrible, why are you still hanging around it?
And, FYI, you&#39;re starting to sound like an old, sexist pig with your remarks about "the wife is tough, so be a man and divorce her." Because after all, only manly men race, right?
Why don&#39;t you go back to riling up the Southern guys instead of trying to turn this thread into yet another train wreck.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Personally, I use a dump truck Tim.

You know Matt....you haven&#39;t changed since the 1980&#39;s. Like the time you destroyed an S2 and blamed eveyone under the sun for your moves on track. Yeah, I was there. I watched it come back in baskets. The whole incident was stupid.
If this club is so frigging terrible, why are you still hanging around it?
And, FYI, you&#39;re starting to sound like an old, sexist pig with your remarks about "the wife is tough, so be a man and divorce her." Because after all, only manly men race, right?
Why don&#39;t you go back to riling up the Southern guys instead of trying to turn this thread into yet another train wreck.
[/b]
Steph - Hoping I was not offensive with my "wheel barrel" comment and always believed this sport is for ALL racers.
Don&#39;t know of Matt but you know I hold our corner workers in the highest regard and I also beleive the system worked at LRP.
Matt - FYI the corner worker with the national license (driver and f&c), was there specifically to view the new configuration of this corner/station #8 for the benefit of ALL racers - A task not many of us would give up our seat to do. - Thanks Grant!

[RSTPerformance]

We gotta&#39; get officials out of the racing picture. RFA&#39;s against drivers by non-racing officials even when the drivers say it was a racing incident is all too common. You want to sit on a corner and make judgements on driving? Go right ahead but I think the right to protest by workers and officials should be removed. You want to get in the mix and speak your opinion? Get off that corner station, get a second job, divorce the wife and strap on the belts. Otherwise leave the racing to the racers. If you feel unsafe, leave the corner, take your crew with you if they agree and let the CS sort it out.
[/b]


Matt-

You are a friggen moron, and I think I speek for everyone.

Open your friggen eyes before you keep offending people. Tons of corner workers would love to go racing but can&#39;t afford it. Others have no desire to race but love racing...

Who the heck is going to keep checks and balances on our races??? OUR officials for the most part don&#39;t get totaly involved with stuff as they are mostly only concerned about safety and if we (drivers and workers) are having fun. If you don&#39;t believe me do some training, they protect the drivers a lot more than you think.

IF YOU think that the officials/workers and such shouldn&#39;t be able to protest/penalize people without drivers taking actions do you really think that anyone would ever get penalized? Sorry that I have to say this but MOST drivers are a lot of talk and actually never get up the "balls" (as you say) to file a protest. Most events have 1 or 2 protests at the most, however their are generally at least 6-10 CSA penalties issued by the stewards above and beyond any protests. All of the CSA are generally initiated by some worker who is ensuring that we all have a good and safe time today and another day in the future. You have NO IDEA what goes on and I really think it is time you quit racing and checked out the other side of the fence to see what really happens.

ALL the workers and officials are trying to make it fun for EVERYONE, workers and drivers alike. Drivers are no more important than workers, but Workers are a hell of a lot more important than drivers. If we lost 10 drivers from the club then our events will still go on, probably unoticible, however if we lost 10 workers would we still have another event???

I don&#39;t respect your opinion, and I hope that NOBODY is ever influenced by the stupid things you say that drive away our most important and valuable members.

GO TO ANOTHER ORGANIZATION ALREADY IF YOU HATE SCCA, WE LOVE IT AND YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE MY MIND EVER!!!

Raymond




OK I just reread my post and I decided that I was far to harsh. Matt because many corner workers and such don&#39;t have the means to race, but would love to I think we should take you up on your wonderful thought and take it to the next level.

Since you seem to be blind to any sort of financial constraints, and since you really want to make a difference in our club you are going to give the best gift ever and be the first one to pay for the workers PDX or drivers school event correct? And you are going to let them drive your car if they don&#39;t have one right? I mean this is all so that they can go racing and learn how hard it is to be a driver... And when they are at that drivers event you are gong to work the corner keep your mouth quite and just waive flags like a robot or monky right?

Raymond

[lateapex911]

It&#39;s racing guys. ......A protest is a truly overt action and is perceived certain ways. None good in this case. No reason for it. And BTW a flagger is a flagger when he&#39;s flagging. ....... No better than a Monday morning quarterback. Hard line? Yea, sure. But officials assume far too big a role in what we do and it really needs to be curtailed.

......We gotta&#39; get officials out of the racing picture. .....I think the right to protest by workers and officials should be removed. You want to get in the mix and speak your opinion? Get off that corner station, get a second job, divorce the wife and strap on the belts.
[/b]

Classic.

So, Matt...hows the SIT thing going????????


One thing that&#39;s "Funny" about this post is how often I hear racers...drivers...guys/gals ON the track, lamenting how the "Officials" aren&#39;t severe enough...how they don&#39;t "Do enough"..how they should be more agressive on "racing incidents" and other on track transgressions. Not to mention how most guys...well, maybe most IT guys, would BEG officials to start slapping down some "rip the engine apart papers".

When you read the appeals in Fastrack, it&#39;s pretty clear how the system works, and how, in certain cases, officials create actions. And those usually seem perfectly justified.

One of the reasons we as a club don&#39;t have greater influx of drivers from the marque clubs or the track day clubs is the reputation SCCA has for car wreckage. I know plenty of guys who just think the risk/reward ratio is out of line, and while they&#39;d like to join the club, they think better of it due to the known reputation for car damaging incidents. I know I&#39;ve spent buckets of time, missed races and have drained my bank account becuase of sloppy driving that results in T-bones and other incidents. I&#39;ve watched it from the sides too. Guys at the Runoffs who qualified poorly feeling that they "Deserved" to be up front, and push people out of the way, when they didn&#39;t "own" the corner or the spot. Rookies who just make mistakes. But who ends up paying for the mental wrongs that end up in bent metal?? I know it&#39;s cost me..and I know plenty of others as well. And thats not fair. Sure, "racing" isn&#39;t fair, but that doesn&#39;t mean we can&#39;t strive to make it as fair as possible. That&#39;s where the third party ...the Officials ..comes in.

Will removing the right to protest form workers make that situation better?? Will newcomers feel better about their chances to survive without the officials having protest rights? Duh......it&#39;s almost ludicrous to ask.

Please......step down and hand the soapbox over. Your opinion has been noted.

[BobsAuto]

I&#39;ve followed this thread and have tried to keep out of it but I really have to put my humble 2 cents in at this point. (Sorry Raymond).. Matt, you haven&#39;t changed one iota. I have been on track with you and have been the subject of your sexist tyrades, and yes, I quit because I really thought I had caused a major mishap that I believed involved you. It was that incident that made me realize that I was no longer quick to react to incidents around me. However, if it weren&#39;t for the corner workers and officials also letting me know that I had lost my "reaction time" I probably would have kept at it longer and yes, probably made some fool disasterous mistakes. The corner workers have watched and studied and if given the chance, would probably outdrive many drivers because of their "knowledge" of each corner they&#39;ve worked and their ability to "judge" the good lines from the bad and unsafe lines. As for the officials, I would hate to see you go to that higher level and run with the "PROS" of Nextel Cup. The officials would have you out of a car, fined, and thrown out of the track for the comments alone!

You need to sit back and read what you have said and really think about the consequences of your suggestions.

Yes, I am now a spectator, but I have crewed, driven, worked, and done my time at the club level, in SCCA, and as a worker for NASCAR. Now am to enjoy my kids and their comrades racing. I can still tell a good line from a bad line and a good call from a bad call by a corner station and/or an official. And I can still tell the pigheaded sore LOSERS that still exist out there. Grow up and take time to smell the roses. :bash_1_:

[Mattberg]

Stephanie, I apologize for the divorce comment. It was meant in jest not as an affront to women, marriage or anything else. Strictly toungue in cheek sarcasm related to an excuse I myself have been guilty of as it relates to money and racing. :D

As far as my accident at LRP, it&#39;s a good example of when officials should act and when not to act. And BTW, I blamed only one person. But that one person had been off the track three times in qualifying early apexing the downhill. A line that takes you off track consistently is a lot different than a line that just looks funny or different. I wasn&#39;t the only driver upset either and they didn&#39;t write off a brand new Lola. :rolleyes: The fourth time he did it was the end of the road, literally, not to mention coming back onto the middle of the straight and stopping. When I saw the brake light go on there was nothing to do but hold on. Still not sure how many flips and cartwheels I did but that was one wild ride. :wacko: He did get some kind of probation as I remember but it was probably deserved. I know I considered it a racing incident and never protested.

Ancient history. Anyway the problem I had with this situation is I believe it crossed a line and represents a precedent. As long as a racer is on the road is anyone really within bounds to criticize technique or a driving line? We deal with what the track offers, obey the rules and race, and it sure sounds to me like one driver found a quick way around that he felt comfortable with. If it endangers workers I think it&#39;s really a matter for the SCCA or local regions and the track management. It also is a bad precedent in my view if we start creating exceptions to the rules based on personal feelings or one&#39;s belief of what constitutes safe or unsafe driving (erratic or obviously dangerous driving excluded). If all agree, go out and paint a line and tell them in the driver&#39;s meeting not to go there. I just really have a problem with officials protesting a driver based on technique issues. What&#39;s next, unsafe passing? We see more and more situations where drivers agree something was a racing incident or within rules and boundaries, yet an official insists on a protest. A very high ranking official and former board member recently filed three separate protests for racing incidents at a National. All three were overturned by the CoA. Now did the drivers really need to go through all that even if they all agreed there was no cause? Maybe the protest process needs updating. Perhaps it needs to be sponsored or supported by at least two other members. Perhaps that takes the personal aspect out of it. Maybe they should have to pay to file. I don&#39;t know. I just hate seeing a driver going though a protest for playing within the rules.

[Mattberg]

Since you seem to be blind to any sort of financial constraints, and since you really want to make a difference in our club you are going to give the best gift ever and be the first one to pay for the workers PDX or drivers school event correct? And you are going to let them drive your car if they don&#39;t have one right? I mean this is all so that they can go racing and learn how hard it is to be a driver... And when they are at that drivers event you are gong to work the corner keep your mouth quite and just waive flags like a robot or monky right?

Raymond
[/b]


Raymond, I&#39;ve been giving away free time in my cars for years. I&#39;ve never charged them a dime and even paid thier entry fees. But generally I give the time to racers who are a little hard up on dough in order to keep their licenses. That&#39;s the way I do it and I will continue to do such. Giving a worker a ride or a school is a nice thought but I&#39;d rather help out drivers in need. They don&#39;t get much help or attention from the club.

[Mattberg]

Just to add...

How do you feel being pulled over for doing 47 MPH in a 45 MPH zone? Ticky tack. I&#39;m paying $300 more in insurance per year for that ticket and paid $125 for the violation. I feel raped. But even in that case, I was breaking the rules.

Tim broke no rules and had an official come down on him in the same way. It&#39;s just not right. He was doing 45 MPH in a 45 MPH zone and someone with no track or racing experience didn&#39;t like the way he was doing it. That&#39;s a bad precedent. If we&#39;re going to start judging driving lines, then yes, I will find another organization like many have. And unlike the descriptions that have been presented about SCCA being a crash fest that&#39;s not the reason people have gone elsewhere. I&#39;ve been involved with some other organizations and the biggest complaint about SCCA is overbearing officials and unfair treatment on classifications. The vintage guys are the ones that complain about crashing.

If drivers agree something was a racing incident, please explain to me what an official&#39;s protest produces other than acrimony? Joanne Jensen has no racing experience whatsoever but protests three drivers on their driving. She gets reversed by the CoA on all three because, basically, she had no idea what she was talking about. She&#39;s an idiot. But three drivers had to go through a bunch of BS so she could feel powerful. That&#39;s just wrong.

Do you really want no-drivers dictating how we race?

[lateapex911]

Just to add...

How do you feel being pulled over for doing 47 MPH in a 45 MPH zone? Ticky tack. I&#39;m paying $300 more in insurance per year for that ticket and paid $125 for the violation. I feel raped. But even in that case, I was breaking the rules.
[/b]

You got a ticket for 47?? Hmmm the Karma bank seems to be working, LOL.




Tim broke no rules and had an official come down on him in the same way.
[/b]

Uh, no, its NOT the same thing.

You were guilty, Tim was not, you got a ticket, Tim was not sanctioned. Seems obvious.

Beyond that of course, you&#39;re using this in yet another of your anti officials mental masterbation soapbox rampages, where the driver gets the screw, same theme as always...but you&#39;ve got to let this one go. Tim hasn&#39;t been sanctioned! He didn&#39;t get the screw.

Besides, it&#39;s NOT ABOUT TIM! This is about a larger issue. If you&#39;ve read and done your research..your due diligence, you&#39;ll know that.

Listen, rant all you want in Fla, go whine your case to Joannne whats her name, go protest HER, whatever! Heck..start your own website, finish the Stewards In Training program you started, be productive! But just forget about this one... this deal is closed. You won&#39;t find any fish biting your silly bait.

[charrbq]

Everybody makes occassional mistakes, and everyone has an opinion about it. And we all know that Mattberg has an opinion on everyone and everything...as is his right. It&#39;s just that he refuses to agree with everybody, or frequently anybody, and few can understand why he takes that line. Only he knows the answer to that, and I doubt that he can explain it without slandering someone. There&#39;s a history there.

I work and race...national licenses in both. I&#39;ve been fortunate to maintain a good raport with most drivers and stewards. I&#39;ve never had to protest a driver for anything, but have always had that as an option. Most often, all that is required is a talk to a steward on channel B of the radio about the situation in question, vent my fears at the steward, and he talks to the driver. If the driver takes issue, then it becomes the steward&#39;s problem, not mine. If I feel the steward takes inappropriate action, then I have the right to protest the driver or the steward. Personally, I can never see doing that, but it&#39;s my option.

If I&#39;d been at the corner in question, and had a near miss by a previous incident, I&#39;d be nervous as hell everytime a car passed. At lunch, or whatever, I&#39;d been screaming at the CS or the Safety Steward or someone in charge that something needed to be done to protect me and my crew from becoming statistics. We&#39;ve all seen the incidents on TV where a worker was in a supposed safe position and was injured/killed by and errant car. We all know the dangers and try to prevent them.

Tim did nothing wrong, that I can tell from the video. Cheeze, if we held true to the white line rule, no one could ever clip an apex without a DQ! That would totally destroy the lines of a certain, well-known ITB driver!

While the statement, "Without the workers, we could never race" is true, it still grinds me. I love working a race as much as I love racing, as do most people I&#39;ve worked with that do both. A lot of workers would love to race, but don&#39;t, for a miriad of reasons...economics being one, but certainly not the only one. Most of the people I work with truly enjoy do it because they love it. I agree with the statement, "Without the workers,
we couldn&#39;t race", but add, "Without the racers, we couldn&#39;t work." An example would be the CART race at Texas Motor Speedway a few years back that was cancelled the day of the races. I have several friends that showed up to work the race only to find out it&#39;d been cancelled. Workers and no racers.

[Mattberg]

Everybody makes occassional mistakes, and everyone has an opinion about it. And we all know that Mattberg has an opinion on everyone and everything...as is his right. It&#39;s just that he refuses to agree with everybody, or frequently anybody, and few can understand why he takes that line. Only he knows the answer to that, and I doubt that he can explain it without slandering someone. There&#39;s a history there.[/b]

One comment... :dead_horse: Maybe I should do what Barry Hair did and start a legal proceeding against you for insinuating that I&#39;ve ever slandered anyone... then not show up at the hearing like he did. Pretty hilarious. Par for the course for a lawyer... there&#39;s your slander! :happy204:



I work and race...national licenses in both. I&#39;ve been fortunate to maintain a good raport with most drivers and stewards. I&#39;ve never had to protest a driver for anything, but have always had that as an option. Most often, all that is required is a talk to a steward on channel B of the radio about the situation in question, vent my fears at the steward, and he talks to the driver. If the driver takes issue, then it becomes the steward&#39;s problem, not mine. If I feel the steward takes inappropriate action, then I have the right to protest the driver or the steward. Personally, I can never see doing that, but it&#39;s my option.[/b]

Let me ask this. Why does a worker need to protest a driver other than for an off track incident? The worker is not part of the racing per se. As I&#39;ve said, if two drivers feel something was a racing incident why should a worker or official make that determination. Why must an issue be made out of a non-issue? Like I said maybe a worker who wants to protest a driver should have to get the other driver to back it up or it can&#39;t be filed. It&#39;s sort of like me filing lawsuit against you for damage you did to my neighbor even though my neigbor really wasn&#39;t damaged in his opinion. Now if a driver got up in a worker&#39;s grill, acted like an idiot, or pushed or slugged the guy, protest him. Protests should be a direct relationship. I&#39;ve heard from officials that drivers don&#39;t protest enough so they need to step in for "our own good". Well drivers don&#39;t vote enough either but I don&#39;t see them taking any actions there to create more racer-centric governance.



If I&#39;d been at the corner in question, and had a near miss by a previous incident, I&#39;d be nervous as hell everytime a car passed. At lunch, or whatever, I&#39;d been screaming at the CS or the Safety Steward or someone in charge that something needed to be done to protect me and my crew from becoming statistics. We&#39;ve all seen the incidents on TV where a worker was in a supposed safe position and was injured/killed by and errant car. We all know the dangers and try to prevent them.[/b]

The key statement and one I totally concur with. "I&#39;d been screaming at the CS or the Safety Steward or someone in charge that something needed to be done to protect me and my crew from becoming statistics." Absolutely Chris. What I originally suggested. But that&#39;s not what happened.



Tim did nothing wrong, that I can tell from the video. Cheeze, if we held true to the white line rule, no one could ever clip an apex without a DQ! That would totally destroy the lines of a certain, well-known ITB driver![/b]

But he had to go through the hassle of defending himself for doing nothing wrong. Sort of spoils the fun and the purpose. That&#39;s all I&#39;m upset about.



While the statement, "Without the workers, we could never race" is true, it still grinds me. I love working a race as much as I love racing, as do most people I&#39;ve worked with that do both. A lot of workers would love to race, but don&#39;t, for a miriad of reasons...economics being one, but certainly not the only one. Most of the people I work with truly enjoy do it because they love it. I agree with the statement, "Without the workers,
we couldn&#39;t race", but add, "Without the racers, we couldn&#39;t work." An example would be the CART race at Texas Motor Speedway a few years back that was cancelled the day of the races. I have several friends that showed up to work the race only to find out it&#39;d been cancelled. Workers and no racers.
[/b]

Well there&#39;s a flipside to that. If there were no workers I guarantee you there would be racing. Without racers there&#39;s nothing. What happens when the racers don&#39;t show up? No money. No beer party. No food. No fun or fulfillment of being a spectator of racing. Your TMS example tells all. What happens when there are no workers? Well, it happened a number of years ago when there was a pro race on the same weekend as a double regional as well as an enduro at Moroso and all the workers went to the pro race, which as racing spectators and fans of racing, they were more attracted to. Not bitter, just pointing out that they&#39;re not workers necessarily, they&#39;re fans pusuing their interest. I&#39;ll get to that in a minute.

I believe it was Mike Cox, a driver, who might have even giving up driving that weekend (can&#39;t remember), who answered the call to arms and got it all organized calling on drivers to work. I was more than happy to volunteer. He did such a good job that most of us didn&#39;t have to work although we were all ready to! One of the best weekends I&#39;ve ever had racing. One thing I can tell you is having drivers on the corners... they really know what they&#39;re doing in reference to the passing flags. :D

Lastly, workers are great. They assist us in every aspect and every minute of a race weekend. When they protest us they become an annoyance and hinderance. It&#39;s happening too often lately. At the 2002 runoffs I heard there were almost 100 RFAs from officials and workers on Sunday alone for racing incidents. Isn&#39;t that a little out of control for folks who aren&#39;t in the race? They were told to cool it in 2003 from what I&#39;ve heard and there were very few RFAs. They came back in 2004 and started up again with another huge number of RFAs. Two guys come together fighting for the same peice of real estate is going to happen. If the drivers consider it racing why should a non-racer (I could care less if he/she has in car experience, they&#39;re not on the track) make a call?

If a driver is consistently trouble, sooner or later, someone is going to take action on the driver side. All that happens now is too many drivers get hit with probation and sanctions, many times for a racing incident and no real wrongdoing, not to mention bad feelings about the club, and race at a percentage of max for a couple of races to get off probation. Takes away from every aspect of the sport and fun.

Solution? Create two types of protests. A racing protest may only be filed by a racing participant, driver or entrant. A membership protest or complaint may be filed by any member against another member for conduct "unbecoming" if you will and only relates to off track incidents. I get drunk at the beer party and pee on your BBQ, I deserve to be disciplined. I drive like an idiot and almost kill someone in the paddock, I deserve it. I drive a different line than most totally within the rules and some workers don&#39;t like it? Tough beans. Imagine how many protests will be filed against me! :happy204:

[StephF]

To all, and especially to you Matt.

This link to an old thread is why he holds absolutely NO CREDIBILITY in my eyes, or in a lot of other peoples eyes too.

http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...topic=6918&st=0 (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6918&st=0)

I especially like the tone and content of post # 15.

It&#39;s long and sordid, but if you can slog through it, you&#39;ll have quite an eye opener as to his thought processes. And it&#39;s not pretty!

I started reading this when it was being posted with an open mind. After all, if something is being kept secret, we should know about it, right? Even if it isn&#39;t in my area, it&#39;s good to know what is going on throughout the club as a whole. And maybe this poster has something valuable to say, that should be said. Maybe there is a coverup here that could affect us all one day.

Hell, I didn&#39;t know that I even knew him when it began.
And I don&#39;t know any of the other parties involved, so I was reading it from a bystander&#39;s perspective.

I couldn&#39;t believe the evil crap that was being spewed here.

And guys, the angrier he made everyone, the more he kept coming back on here to scream away, Mr Voice Of Logic. It&#39;s almost as if he craves having people telling him to f**k off.

Do you have online Tourette&#39;s Syndrome or something, Matt?

I was going to leave it alone until you made reference to it in your last post.

I can&#39;t stomach people who come online in their made up names and start trashing someone else in their full name. I know your name, but I don&#39;t see you having the stones to put it anywhere in your post signature. But it doesn&#39;t slow you down from naming other people in full, does it?


Matt....being a member of a club is a PRIVILEGE not a RIGHT. So far, I&#39;ve seen more acrimony and bitterness from you than from anyone else here. And VERY LITTLE input that could be defined as constructive.

And I am especially offended by your constant trashing of ALL workers and ALL officials.

Because, guess what Matt? When you trash them like that, you trash me, my family, my husband, my friends, hell you trash EVERYONE in the club when you do that. Because this isn&#39;t about "us" versus "them", Matt. It&#39;s about ALL OF US. That&#39;s what a club is: it&#39;s EVERYONE!!!

Paying entry fees to race does not give you carte blanche to be a Richard Cranium to the other "non-driving" members of the club.

And I, for one, am tired of having to stumble across your toxic wastefields here on line.

Go join NASA, or EMRA, or hell, you&#39;re probably ready for vintage. Take your toxins with you and leave us alone.

[charrbq]

Thank you Stephanie, for reminding us of who we are and why we race and why we all need/like one another. Not everyone gets along, or sees eye to eye, but that&#39;s normally the exception.

Thank you Matt, for doing what you always do best...pick apart anything you don&#39;t like said about you and throw it back it their face...sprinkled with a healthy dose of ink from your poison pen. Maybe it was just me thinking, but I didn&#39;t think I attacked you, and certainly not in the fashion you attacked me.

You must really feed on this stuff.

[Eagle7]

Let me ask this. Why does a worker need to protest a driver other than for an off track incident? The worker is not part of the racing per se. As I&#39;ve said, if two drivers feel something was a racing incident why should a worker or official make that determination. Why must an issue be made out of a non-issue? [/b]
Tim didn&#39;t think there was an issue, he thought the system worked fine. Why should you make that determination? You weren&#39;t involved.

[Mattberg]

Well Stephanie, I&#39;d really like to know a couple of things. When and where did I "trash" ALL workers? And, how does calling for a policy to restrict on-track racing protests to racers "trash" ALL workers? From your response I can only assume that I&#39;ve failed in being issue specific. I will try and be more specific and if you can, please, as difficult as I think it is for you, do not take this personally. You and others get extremely defensive if ANYTHING is suggested that could possibly be, even in the slightest bit, interpreted as diminishing the role of workers and officials.

Anyway, to be specific and on topic, my issue is that these events and others like it, indicate to me that the worker role might be too broad or involved. When a worker can protest a driver for a racing issue doing nothing wrong, and that worker is ferociously defended to the point of unreproachable I&#39;d say there&#39;s a problem. In other words, any criticism of a worker (emphasis on the singular, "worker") even if it is valid is considered sacrilege and the driver is considered guilty until proven innocent. There&#39;s an issue of reasonable basis. Do you really think 100 RFA&#39;a in one race day from workers for on-track incidents can be justified? It&#39;s mind boggling to me. Perhaps it&#39;s just me. But for me to even suggest such is seen as an affront to ALL workers. As are my feelings that a worker shouldn&#39;t be able to protest a driver for playing by the rules because he/she doesn&#39;t like it. Feeling endangered is a valid claim but protesting a driver within the rules is unacceptable in my opinion. Even out of frustration or as a last resort, the fact that it was an option is what I take issue with. Should a driver be subject to a corner worker&#39;s frustration from lack of action by race officials? Not saying that&#39;s what happened but the system certainly makes it possibility. Is that good?

More importantly and pertinent to the issue being discussed is that a worker protested a driver for doing what he had every right to do under the given rules. Seems to me that&#39;s a good indication of a flaw in the system. Wouldn&#39;t you agree? Again, suggesting that or proposing a solution is seen as a debasement of the whole worker population. Our legal system is a good example. You can basically sue anyone for anything. Look at the mess that&#39;s created and all the calls for tort reform. All I&#39;m asking is that a line be drawn with a more sensible policy. A protest is sort of like a lawsuit. But when no rule has been broken it becomes somewhat like the four or five nuisance suits I see each year (it galls me to see the insurance company pay them off instead of fighting.:wacko: ) But I have to deal with it just like this driver had to deal with this protest.

So, is there any line, where is it, and what&#39;s next? Unsafe passing as interpreted by corner workers? It has nothing to do with workers per se, it has to do with the system and the potential misuse or abuse of it. Let&#39;s say you detest me (sounds like you do anyway) and just for the heck of it you protest me after seeing what you THINK is a bump draft. Meanwhile the guy I&#39;m simply drafting with is only too happy to have me there. Should I spend two hours with stewards getting hassled over it even if the outcome is in my favor? Has the system worked? One might say that in that case the outcome justified the system process but I would have to disagree having had to go through the hassle. I guess I&#39;m just trying to figure out why a non-racer should be passing judgement on a racer and creating what amounted to an unecessary imposition. Maybe I&#39;m wrong and in this particular case the whole mess will cause officials to establish some supplemental rules that makes the workers feel safe which is paramount. But that&#39;s a real roundabout way to justify it. As I&#39;ve said, bottom line, is I think the events that transpired illustrate a serious flaw in the system subject to misuse.

p.s. If you remember me from my NEDIV days perhaps that you&#39;ve forgotten that I was a grid and corner worker for a number of years while in college when tuition pretty much precluded me from racing.

I attacked you Chris? How? I asked a couple of questions. Sheesh. Actually I think you epitomize the perfect club member. You say you have as much fun working as driving. Model club member. Don&#39;t really believe that though. :D :D Nothing beats being on-track, right? Regardless, you do what you can to be there in whatever capacity you can for love of the sport. That&#39;s what an enthusiast club is all about. THe issue here is when that experience is imposed on without basis and the system that allows that to happen.

[Mattberg]

Tim didn&#39;t think there was an issue, he thought the system worked fine. Why should you make that determination? You weren&#39;t involved.
[/b]


I&#39;m not making any determination. Just questioning the system. Being involved is really irrelevant. I&#39;m looking at this and some other similar incidents recently as examples. I look at it this way. The precedent seems to be set and I&#39;m just a little uncomfortable with it. I&#39;m simply a driver knowing that I&#39;m exposed to review of my driving technique and potential protest by a non-racer. I&#39;m simply questioning that system premise. Ok?

If Tim isn&#39;t bothered by that and feels the system worked, that&#39;s fine. If it had happened to me I think I might be a tad annoyed. I think Tim handled it way better than I would have and with extreme poise. My hat&#39;s off to him. But like I said, I&#39;m trying to understand the need for a worker to pass judgement on driving when one is within the rules. If you&#39;d like, ignore this particular incident and consider it on a hypothetical basis.

Don&#39;t you think the system is subject to potential misuse or abuse? If someone thinks I&#39;m an a-hole (pretty good assumtion :D ) and decides to protest me just for the hassle when I&#39;ve done nothing wrong? Trust me, it&#39;s already happened. A lot of people would have a smile on their face and say I deserved it, but did I really or was it just an abuse of the system to satisfy a personal disdain for my existence? :rolleyes: I hate to sound like I enjoy being hated but can you objectively see that as anything but an abuse of a flawed system? Just fodder for thought.

[charrbq]

You say you have as much fun working as driving. Model club member. Don&#39;t really believe that though. :D :D Nothing beats being on-track, right?
[/quote]
If I said it, you can believe it. Twist it anyway you want, or believe what you will, but it&#39;s the truth. Learn to live with it.

[RKramden]

I just really have a problem with officials protesting a driver based on technique issues.
[/b]

I, personally, have protested a driver when I was working as a starter. It was at a drivers school. It was the only time I ever even wanted to file a protest.

The driver was a nationally licensed driver (and mostly in the back of the pack in his class) and he was enrolled in the school as a student.

He decided that he should show the other students what a real start was like (his words) and since he was at the front of the pack for the practice starts he proceded to get hard into the throttle at the apex of 11 (the last corner before start) at Lime Rock way before the green would ever come out.

First time, I waved them off, second time, he didn&#39;t learn and waved them off again. Third time, and he still didn&#39;t learn and the field was waved off and black flagged, everyone got a good lecture about starts by the chief instructor and he was removed from the school.

The operating steward did nothing and is known for doing nothing (e.g. never a penalty, never a CSA, never black flag anyone for anything) so I protested him for dangerous driving and my protest was upheld. The steward just wanted the problem to go away without doing anything.

Was that protest wrong, too?

(Charter member of the Piggly-Wiggly Racing Team.
If you have to ask, send an e-mail to John, Matt&#39;s brother, or read the H-Production board archives.)

[lateapex911]

Ralph, Ralph, Ralph.....

Matt&#39;s involved here...it&#39;s all about mental masterbation...why are you dragging logic and facts into it??

;)

[charrbq]

Ralph, Ralph, Ralph.....

Matt&#39;s involved here...it&#39;s all about mental masterbation...why are you dragging logic and facts into it??

;)
[/b]
Jake...I like that term, "mental masterbation"...it&#39;s funny, yet frequently appropriate. Can I borrow that for a future reference or to used in a sentence I might deem appropriate? :D

[lateapex911]

Jake...I like that term, "mental masterbation"...it&#39;s funny, yet frequently appropriate. Can I borrow that for a future reference or to used in a sentence I might deem appropriate? :D
[/b]


Sure, but...
...be neat. ;)

It has more impact that way.

[charrbq]

Of course...out of respect for it&#39;s author. B)

[Mattberg]

I, personally, have protested a driver when I was working as a starter. It was at a drivers school. It was the only time I ever even wanted to file a protest.

The driver was a nationally licensed driver (and mostly in the back of the pack in his class) and he was enrolled in the school as a student.

He decided that he should show the other students what a real start was like (his words) and since he was at the front of the pack for the practice starts he proceded to get hard into the throttle at the apex of 11 (the last corner before start) at Lime Rock way before the green would ever come out.

First time, I waved them off, second time, he didn&#39;t learn and waved them off again. Third time, and he still didn&#39;t learn and the field was waved off and black flagged, everyone got a good lecture about starts by the chief instructor and he was removed from the school.

The operating steward did nothing and is known for doing nothing (e.g. never a penalty, never a CSA, never black flag anyone for anything) so I protested him for dangerous driving and my protest was upheld. The steward just wanted the problem to go away without doing anything.

Was that protest wrong, too?

[/b]


Well, in this case it&#39;s a little different as the driver was actually doing something against the rules. What a National driver was doing participating as a student at a school is a little odd. I thought we didn&#39;t allow that? Not sure. Regardless, my suggestion of restricting the protest process is blown out of the water by this example. It&#39;s very interesting and something I hadn&#39;t even considered. Schools are a whole different animal, aren&#39;t they? I would venture to guess that MORE input from officials and workers would be a good thing and at that point they probably know the rules and guidelines better than many of the students. Right?

You also make another good point that screws my proposal. A person in charge that doesn&#39;t do his job as you described in your example leaves a dangerous void that could apply both to a race or a school. That actually is a whole separate problem. So, sure enough, you did the right thing. I gotta&#39; think about this. I&#39;m sorry I don&#39;t know your name but thanks for the input. I&#39;ll go back and re-think it. :unsure:

[Wreckerboy]

SNIP

Go join NASA, or EMRA, or hell, you&#39;re probably ready for vintage. Take your toxins with you and leave us alone.
[/b]


Jeez, what did I do to piss you guys off? Don&#39;t wish him on me! :018: :D

[RSTPerformance]

I&#39;m not making any determination. Just questioning the system. Being involved is really irrelevant. I&#39;m looking at this and some other similar incidents recently as examples. I look at it this way. The precedent seems to be set and I&#39;m just a little uncomfortable with it. I&#39;m simply a driver knowing that I&#39;m exposed to review of my driving technique and potential protest by a non-racer. I&#39;m simply questioning that system premise. Ok?

If Tim isn&#39;t bothered by that and feels the system worked, that&#39;s fine. If it had happened to me I think I might be a tad annoyed. I think Tim handled it way better than I would have and with extreme poise. My hat&#39;s off to him. But like I said, I&#39;m trying to understand the need for a worker to pass judgement on driving when one is within the rules. If you&#39;d like, ignore this particular incident and consider it on a hypothetical basis.

Don&#39;t you think the system is subject to potential misuse or abuse? If someone thinks I&#39;m an a-hole (pretty good assumtion :D ) and decides to protest me just for the hassle when I&#39;ve done nothing wrong? Trust me, it&#39;s already happened. A lot of people would have a smile on their face and say I deserved it, but did I really or was it just an abuse of the system to satisfy a personal disdain for my existence? :rolleyes: I hate to sound like I enjoy being hated but can you objectively see that as anything but an abuse of a flawed system? Just fodder for thought.
[/b]




Well, in this case it&#39;s a little different as the driver was actually doing something against the rules. What a National driver was doing participating as a student at a school is a little odd. I thought we didn&#39;t allow that? Not sure. Regardless, my suggestion of restricting the protest process is blown out of the water by this example. It&#39;s very interesting and something I hadn&#39;t even considered. Schools are a whole different animal, aren&#39;t they? I would venture to guess that MORE input from officials and workers would be a good thing and at that point they probably know the rules and guidelines better than many of the students. Right?

You also make another good point that screws my proposal. A person in charge that doesn&#39;t do his job as you described in your example leaves a dangerous void that could apply both to a race or a school. That actually is a whole separate problem. So, sure enough, you did the right thing. I gotta&#39; think about this. I&#39;m sorry I don&#39;t know your name but thanks for the input. I&#39;ll go back and re-think it. :unsure:
[/b]



wow, Matt you gave me a lot of reading to catch up on... some of your posts I actually like, but others I completely disagree with you on... but I will try to dig through all the crap and find a couple of possibly intellegent comments... :rolleyes:

1) At one time in my life I thought you were correct in one area- that many workers could benenfit or needed a better understanding of a drivers perspective. That is why I started getting involved in the SIT program... What did I learn?

A ) Yes thier are a lot of officials and workers that could benefit from a "drivers perspective." To my amaizment they have been far more open to my opinions that I ever imagined they would be. While some might not admit it others have, and I think many people have learned as much from me as I have from them. From what I have seen the workers and officials would like more involvment from drivers, so don&#39;t be shy and step up... it is actually a lot of fun!!!

B ) As a very active driver I can say that I learned a TON from being a very active SIT last year. Working every specialty has tought me a lot about a "workers perspective." It is amaizing how different things are. I am trying to put it into words and I can&#39;t quite figure it out... I guess thus far part of what I have learned is that I was wrong, most of the workers/officials DO NOT need to learn "what its like to be a driver." Thier decisions for the most part deal completely with safety concerns for all members or obviose rule violations. Sure as mentioned in "A" they can benefit from understanding drivers better, but all that helps them do is understand where "we" (drivers) are coming from. That understanding has generally made absolutely no difference in the final outcome or results of a protest. Many times that "drivers perspective" only helps in explaining to the drivers the results that they are presented with. Also please remember as with Tims case ( I was not involved at all from a official standpoint, I only saw these discussions) it seems to me that most of the workers/officials respect the drivers opinions and thier statements. IMO generally they are the most important during a protest be it from an offical or another driver.


2) I can see that "the starter" was able to finally get you to think about your position - should workers/officials have the ability to file protests? His/her example is good but IMO in no way different than the protest Tim had to "deal" with recently at LRP. I can easily see how the worker at the uphill could interpret that Tim was going against the rules by driving "off course." This also was a safety concern for the workers and drivers alike. Do I think the corner worker was wrong in filing a protest? NO. Do I agree with his/her interpretation, NO but I do respect their opinion and I find it valuable. Safety concerns as well as rule definitions are based on peoples interpretations. We as members in whatever capacity need to respect each others intrepretations and thus protests. IMO we as members also need to respect the current process that exists. Certainly "politics" IMO has brought out issues with "our" process however for the most part those issues are resolved with each step in the process. Their is no way that we can avoid that, it happens with every organization.



In closing I would say Matt If I read between the lines a bit I can see that you bring forward valid concerns of different people and their capacity to have have rights as members. However I thikn your concerns are not valid as a whole, as with every organization thier are a few less gifted members. I do think that the protest process that we (Memebers of SCCA) have created to deal with oposing views of ALL of our members at an event is the BEST process that could be made and should not be altered at this time in anyway other than possibly to address some better uses of new technology and communication. Their are plenty of "checks and balances" that prevents any one person or group of people from having to much power.

Matt I would also suggest that you give the SIT thing another chance if the spot is still open for you. You obviosly didn&#39;t didn&#39;t "click" well with your mentor. Maybe you can get someone else to show you the ropes so that you can see the benefits of the things you so frequently argue against. Also remember a perfect process can certainly be flawed with "bad" people. If you think that it is flawed with "bad" people then fix it by getting invloved yourself (not just bitching about it) and bring along a few friends - I did, and I found that the areas that I thought were "bad" were actually increadably correct and a good part of the reason for SCCA&#39;s success.

Hope all is well;

Raymond "I hope I am not making anyone mad" Blethen

PS: Matt All anger and joking aside you have a lot of potential to be something great for this club. Figure out how you are insulting all those around you so you can stop, then do something with all that "intelagence" you seem to possibly have. You can make a difference, just go about it a different way.

[dickita15]

PS: Matt All anger and joking aside you have a lot of potential to be something great for this club. Figure out how you are insulting all those around you so you can stop, then do something with all that "intelagence" you seem to possibly have. You can make a difference, just go about it a different way.
[/b]

Raymond, that was a very good well thought out post, but unless I have gravely misjudged matt he has no interest in not being insulting.

[RKramden]

Yes thier are a lot of officials and workers that could benefit from a "drivers perspective." To my amaizment they have been far more open to my opinions that I ever imagined they would be.
[/b]

Well, you failed at Start and need to work there again. :018: This time, doing lapcharts of the "wings and things" race at NHIS. Lets see, 120 MPH under your feet, and you have to pick out the nose numbers.....Just might be a challange.

I think it fair to say that I had rather lengthy chats with the Exec Steward and your mentor about you. I don&#39;t consider any of what I said private. What they said, however, is, but only because I won&#39;t speak for others.

I did like that rather than hit the driver with the rule book, you wanted to help the driver understand why something was important so he could understand why he was being asked to change something on his car. A lot of stewards use the rule book as a justification of their actions. It is very different than using the rule book to guide your actions.

Dave

Ex driver, ex steward, ex tech inspector, ex fire rescue, ex ....
Starter, Flagger, and sometimes Pace Car driver.

[RSTPerformance]

Well, you failed at Start and need to work there again. :018: This time, doing lapcharts of the "wings and things" race at NHIS. Lets see, 120 MPH under your feet, and you have to pick out the nose numbers.....Just might be a challange.

I think it fair to say that I had rather lengthy chats with the Exec Steward and your mentor about you. I don&#39;t consider any of what I said private. What they said, however, is, but only because I won&#39;t speak for others.

I did like that rather than hit the driver with the rule book, you wanted to help the driver understand why something was important so he could understand why he was being asked to change something on his car. A lot of stewards use the rule book as a justification of their actions. It is very different than using the rule book to guide your actions.

Dave

Ex driver, ex steward, ex tech inspector, ex fire rescue, ex ....
Starter, Flagger, and sometimes Pace Car driver.
[/b]


Dave-

I only failed at start cause you do such an amaizing job!!! :birra: Years of experience certainly shows in your abilities to do that job. Those dam lap charts :wacko: I am confident that I can say I understand the aspects and responsabilities of the starters job, but certainly agree that it would take years of practice to become "one with the starters stand" as you have.

It was fun working with you and I look forward to future oportunities to do so again!!!

Raymond

PS Dave-

Your post left me wondering what your conversations with my mentor and Exec Steward were... Not sure if your comments were to be taken as a positive or a negative. Be sure to let me know ESPECIALLY if thier were negatives that I should be aware of. - Thanks

[lateapex911]

Dave,

One thing you have to give Raymond....

He has a great attitude.
He tries very hard.
He wants to be fair.

Ok, that&#39;s 3 things.
But they are all qualities that are needed to be a Steward.

[emwavey]

Interesting discussion.

[RSTPerformance]

PS:

I just want to thank Dave for getting back to me offline. I think his post here looked a bit different than how he felt. We have talked a bit and it was great to get his feedback on what he liked about me as a potential future steward.

To all workers,drivers,crew,pets, etc. I think it is always important to get/give feedback be it positive or negative. Negative feedback (and involvement) encourages changes while positive feedback helps keep things going in the right direction.

Mattberg- YOu sort of halted in your path of a "debate" a little while back. Have you thought things through and made any changes on your view? If you have that is great!!! If not I really do hope you try and get back into the SIT program to A ) make changes or B ) understand the organization a little better.

Hope all is well;

Raymond

PSS: Jake- Did you compliment me??? Thanks I think that is the first ever public compliment you have ever given me... Maybe I will need to find one for you :unsure: :014: :119: :birra: :cavallo: :bash_1_: :wacko: :D (Just kidding I know that we are always bashing each other in good fun, thus the need to point out how you were nice to me!!!)

[lateapex911]

PSS: Jake- Did you compliment me??? Thanks I think that is the first ever public compliment you have ever given me... Maybe I will need to find one for you :unsure: :014: :119: :birra: :cavallo: :bash_1_: :wacko: :D (Just kidding I know that we are always bashing each other in good fun, thus the need to point out how you were nice to me!!!)
[/b]
Me?? bash you??? naaaaa..! (Well, I might have quoted your brothers comments about you here and there..;0

No compliments needed in return.

I&#39;ll just put it in my pocket for later. Just don&#39;t come after me when you read the new Audi weights in the GCR next year...

[lateapex911]

Kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

;)

[Mattberg]

Raymond,

Not that I&#39;ve changed my view, it&#39;s just that there are certain safeguards that result from a worker protesting that I hadn&#39;t considered and are very significant. That said, I think those safeguards are exceptions to the rule. First is schools. Obvious need there for MORE worker involvement. A bad CS or other high ranking official that does nothing or ignores a problem? That&#39;s a reach and true exception and it&#39;s also a whole separate problem and he/she shouldn&#39;t be a high ranking official. I&#39;d rather see the worker protest the official for doing nothing as it addresses a far greater problem. Either way the safeguards address the exception not the rule. Sometimes that&#39;s what safeguards are for but when they also open the doors to abuse or misuse I start thinking of better ways if possible to do it.

Specifically, and what sparked me on this issue, is when drivers get protested and the drivers involved see no violation and it happens too often. The 100 RFAs at the Runoffs is a perfect example of system abuse for no other reason than to create a situation and an ego booster for officials and workers to "lay down the law" and show the drivers who&#39;s the boss not to mention getting into the mix despite not driving. There is no other explanation. There is no excuse. Ergo, I do think that workers and officials protesting drivers for on-course incidents needs to be somewhat more regulated and restricted.

I like the idea of a "seconding" of a worker against driver protest by another driver. Seems to me that controls the situation without losing the safeguards or integrity of the system. IN the case of a worker protesting an official, a "seconding" from another worker would be in order. It takes the personal factor out of it for the most part and limits potential abuse or a misguided protest as well intentioned as it may be. Remember also that protests shouldn&#39;t be seen as a member&#39;s right but as a mechanism for protecting the event, sport and participants. Is it really so terrible to require a consensus of sorts before a driver gets hauled down to the tower?

You see, in Tim&#39;s case, hopefully, a driver, when asked to support the protest would say, "He wasn&#39;t breaking any rules. Take it up with the CS". Problem solved. No hassle for Tim and perhaps the CS talks with him but the whole nasty protest process is avoided and this thread ceases to exist. :happy204: Without driver support, perhaps the worker protests the official and gets support and a bad official gets written up and/or ousted. Good thing there. Either way I think it&#39;s a system that can be improved. Right now it&#39;s sort of like a single voice in a community being able to take action unilaterally with or without any support of that same community. No petition, no meeting. Makes the accused guilty until proven innocent. When the violation is a corner worker&#39;s judgement of driving technique I really have a problem.

Lastly, I have definately not changed my mind about a worker or official passing judgement on driving technique such as choice of racing line. Totally out of line (excuse the pun). Unless a rule is broken it can&#39;t be heard even with support. The worker is not there to judge technique. As I said before, if the captain feels something is unsafe, talk to the CS or walk off the corner. Make it the CS&#39;s problem or protest the CS.

Hope all is well with you also. :D

p.s. Go BORIS! NEDIV SCCAer!

[Tkczecheredflag]

Raymond,

You see, in Tim&#39;s case, hopefully, a driver, when asked to support the protest would say, "He wasn&#39;t breaking any rules. Take it up with the CS". Problem solved. No hassle for Tim and perhaps the CS talks with him but the whole nasty protest process is avoided and this thread ceases to exist. :happy204: Without driver support, perhaps the worker protests the official and gets support and a bad official gets written up and/or ousted. Good thing there. Either way I think it&#39;s a system that can be improved. Right now it&#39;s sort of like a single voice in a community being able to take action unilaterally with or without any support of that same community. No petition, no meeting. Makes the accused guilty until proven innocent. When the violation is a corner worker&#39;s judgement of driving technique I really have a problem.


p.s. Go BORIS! NEDIV SCCAer!
[/b]

Matt - I beleive more tha just the Captian were feeloing uncomfortable with my line. and they might have been supportive - not sure though.
Other drivers did offer to appeal the protest and I beleive were supportive. I am not sure what was happening off the record but I beleive other drivers/officials might have been makinfg a case for me too - Not sure here either.

[RKramden]

Matt,
<blockquote>Not that I&#39;ve changed my view, it&#39;s just that there are certain safeguards that result from a worker protesting that I hadn&#39;t considered and are very significant. That said, I think those safeguards are exceptions to the rule. First is schools. Obvious need there for MORE worker involvement.
</blockquote>
Schools or races, the rules are the rules. If it had been a race, I would have protested the driver in my case. And, by the way, the flagger in question is a good friend, but I personally think he was incorrect in this case.

The safeguards are important, and that is why the GCR says the officials, drivers, entrants and organizations can file protests for anything covered by the GCR. Note that CREW cannot.
<blockquote>A bad CS or other high ranking official that does nothing or ignores a problem? That&#39;s a reach and true exception and it&#39;s also a whole separate problem and he/she shouldn&#39;t be a high ranking official.</blockquote>
It&#39;s not a reach or an exception. It happens all the time, and it is often dealt with in different ways that are more effective than a protest. I have been a race chair, steward, or a speciality chief a number of times, and my wife has been the chief registrar as well as our regional comp board chair. You see a lot that, but because it is a club, you either ignore or have a private discussion to cure the problem.
<blockquote>I&#39;d rather see the worker protest the official for doing nothing as it addresses a far greater problem. Either way the safeguards address the exception not the rule. Sometimes that&#39;s what safeguards are for but when they also open the doors to abuse or misuse I start thinking of better ways if possible to do it.</blockquote>
Two ideas here.
First, you seem to make a distinction between "Workers" and "Officials". What is that distinction? The SCCA considers all the F&C, Tech, Grid, et. al. workers to be "Officials" with respect to the GCR.
Second, your statement about safeguards vs abuse reminds me of a quote: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety".- Benjamin Franklin. I am willing to deal with the occasional abuse for the sake of assuring the safeguard. What has not been discussed is that the Stewards of the Meet failed to apply any correction to the system and retain the protest fee. If you lose the protest fee for an abusive protest (and I&#39;m not sure that this one was abusive), then the system tends to self correct, but only if the SoM keep the protest fee.
<blockquote>Specifically, and what sparked me on this issue, is when drivers get protested and the drivers involved see no violation and it happens too often.</blockquote>
That is why we have Stewards of the Meet, and why the thought of a bunch of stewards who have never driven a race car is a very disturbing idea to me. It should not be a requirement, but the stewards program needs to find people like Ray to keep things in balance.
<snip the part about the RFAs, as that is a whole different topic. RFAs are not like a protest in a few very significant ways.>
<blockquote>Ergo, I do think that workers and officials protesting drivers for on-course incidents needs to be somewhat more regulated and restricted.</blockquote>
$25 dollars per protest, and you lose it if it is not well founded, will certainly cut it right down.
<blockquote>I like the idea of a "seconding" of a worker against driver protest by another driver. Seems to me that controls the situation without losing the safeguards or integrity of the system. </blockquote>
Nope, another driver may not have seen the incident being protested. $25 works just fine.
<blockquote>IN the case of a worker protesting an official, a "seconding" from another worker would be in order. It takes the personal factor out of it for the most part and limits potential abuse or a misguided protest as well intentioned as it may be. Remember also that protests shouldn&#39;t be seen as a member&#39;s right but as a mechanism for protecting the event, sport and participants. Is it really so terrible to require a consensus of sorts before a driver gets hauled down to the tower?</blockquote>
Same Issue, there may not be another witness that could "second" the protest.
Also, you are still making a distinction between workers and officials. They are one and the same.
<blockquote>You see, in Tim&#39;s case, hopefully, a driver, when asked to support the protest would say, "He wasn&#39;t breaking any rules. Take it up with the CS". Problem solved.</blockquote>
Or, the SoM listen, tell Tim "have a nice day.", and the club gets $25 richer. Yea, there is a bit of a hassle, but we need to have that to prevent the other abuses that we could have if the ability to freely protest was not there. Your idea puts the other driver in the position of being the judge. He may not have been able to tell if there was a violation, given his perspective. And some drivers cannot be trusted to tell you the correct time of day. The SoM have time to interview more than one person, deliberate, and make a reasoned decision. The other driver would probably think they don&#39;t want to get involved, so they simply shut up and refuse to admit to anything.
<blockquote>No hassle for Tim and perhaps the CS talks with him but the whole nasty protest process is avoided and this thread ceases to exist. Without driver support, perhaps the worker protests the official and gets support and a bad official gets written up and/or ousted. Good thing there. Either way I think it&#39;s a system that can be improved. Right now it&#39;s sort of like a single voice in a community being able to take action unilaterally with or without any support of that same community. No petition, no meeting.</blockquote>
Anyone can walk into a police station and file a criminal report. It is up the the police and the DA to sort it out and decide if it should be acted upon. If you file too many vexatious ones, there is a cure for that as well.
<blockquote>Makes the accused guilty until proven innocent. When the violation is a corner worker&#39;s judgement of driving technique I really have a problem.</blockquote>
I only agree with part of this. The system almost worked, Pete didn&#39;t lose his $25. I think it would be a big mistake to require that there be two or more people who see a rule infraction and both be willing to file a protest, no matter what or where, on track, off track, be it driver, official, or others.
<blockquote>Lastly, I have definately not changed my mind about a worker or official passing judgement on driving technique such as choice of racing line. Totally out of line (excuse the pun). Unless a rule is broken it can&#39;t be heard even with support.</blockquote>
Well, yes it can be heard, and, as in this case, the SoM determine that there was no rule broken, thank you very much, now go home. Only they gave Pete his $25 back.
<blockquote>The worker is not there to judge technique. As I said before, if the captain feels something is unsafe, talk to the CS or walk off the corner. Make it the CS&#39;s problem or protest the CS.</blockquote>
While I agree that the worker is not there to judge technique, he is there to make sure that the track and the racing is as safe as possible. If he sees a driver do something that he feels is very unsafe, he should take action. IIRC, 14.1.4 was the actual rule, and the protest effectivly said that, in his opinion, Tim was in violation. That is like the DA bringing the case before a judge. Let the SoM make the judgment, as that is their job. That is not an abusive or vexatious protest. It caused everyone a bunch of hassle (more than just Tim), but that is the price you pay for having a system that can work.

As for the protest that I wrote about, you said I should protest the steward who didn&#39;t take any action. Well, using your own logic says that is exactly the wrong thing to do, as the steward did nothing that was against the rules. The GCR (6.11.3) says that the steward MAY, not MUST, deal with the infraction. Big difference. His decision to do nothing was fine, and the only recourse, by the book, is for an official (worker) to protest the person who did break the rules. If you lose a civil case in Federal court you can appeal it, and if you lose that, file an appeal with the SCOTUS. I know of one woman who did this, numberous times, until the courts told her she had to ask for permission to file an appeal in the future. But she had to really, really abuse the system before that point was reached.



Matt - I beleive more tha just the Captian were feeloing uncomfortable with my line. and they might have been supportive - not sure though.
Other drivers did offer to appeal the protest and I beleive were supportive. I am not sure what was happening off the record but I beleive other drivers/officials might have been makinfg a case for me too - Not sure here either.
[/b]
The other flagger onthe corner is both a Nationally licensed flagger and a Nationally licensed ITA driver. :o

[lateapex911]

The other flagger onthe corner is both a Nationally licensed flagger and a Nationally licensed ITA driver. :o
[/b]

I talked to the other flagger who is an ITA driver. He thought Tim was scaring himself and the other flaggers...he wasn&#39;t happy with the "line". But, when I asked him what he&#39;d do if he was driving, he said he&#39;d probably try the same line.

Which is a pretty good example of how issues can be very dependent on your point of view.

As for the concept of using other drivers as the judge and jury, if i understand correctly, it&#39;s certainly going to be a conflict of interest if you use active drivers in the same group and or class. Of course, you could use drivers from other groups, but now you lose the guys who were out there in the same conditions and car types.

I do agree that I like to see Stewards (and SITs) that have race experience, such as Ray is trying to do.

[Mattberg]

Why are pro races so different? Why do pro racers, a lot of whom also club race get so much more respect? Why do you see virtually no RFAs and protests as compared to club racing? Why are there 300 RFAs at the Runoffs and maybe three per year in CART? PLease explain that.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Why are pro races so different? Why do pro racers, a lot of whom also club race get so much more respect? Why do you see virtually no RFAs and protests as compared to club racing? Why are there 300 RFAs at the Runoffs and maybe three per year in CART? PLease explain that. [/b]

I don&#39;t know the answer to this but those other organizations have policies in place to penalize on the spot. They review video and data and hand down penalties in a dictatorship. It works.

[RKramden]

Why are pro races so different? Why do pro racers, a lot of whom also club race get so much more respect? Why do you see virtually no RFAs and protests as compared to club racing? Why are there 300 RFAs at the Runoffs and maybe three per year in CART? PLease explain that.
[/b]

The last time I worked at a pro race, I was one of the "control" radio operators. I was running the Flagger radio net and feeding information to the stewards, and relaying the stewards orders out to the flaggers. While the session was running, I would be about 2 feet from the steward all the time. I saw lots and lots of fines handed out in two short days. When a crew chief was called to the tower, he brought his check book.

Why do they not have tons of RFAs? Because their organization is a benevolent dictatorship. No need for RFAs. The steward is the DA, the judge, and the jury all in one.

We have RFAs because we are a club and we act like a club. Sometimes that is good, and sometimes that is bad. Someone going crazy with RFAs is not so good. Maybe if the steward files a RFA and it is overturned, either by the SOM or on appeal, the steward should get a note in his folder (they have folders, just like drivers.) Too many notes over a few years and you are invited to a license review.

If there is a problem at a pro event (stupid driver, silly crew, illegal car), the pro steward tells the crew chief that his team was just fined $500, $1,000, $5,000, or whatever he thinks is right. Plus probation, suspension, disqualifcation, loss of points, etc. No SOM that has to get involved, no-one to second guess his every move. Yes, there is an appeal process, but you pay the fine first. Unless there is a clear indication that the rules were not followed you don&#39;t have a chance of getting the decision overturned. If you are questioning the stewards judgement, you may find the fine doubled. Teams know this. In the case of a fine, like $5,000, and you lose the appeal, and the fine is doubled, it makes the appeal fee be something like $5000. Way more than the $25 for a protest or $100 for an appeal. It really cuts down on the BS.

Pay the fine or take your car home is the only choice the pro teams really have.


Bottom line is that if you don&#39;t like the Sports Car CLUB of America acting like a CLUB, then spend you nickels elsewhere. NASA is a dictatorship, and I&#39;m sure they are willing to take money from you.

[Marcus Miller]

NASA is a dictatorship, and I&#39;m sure they are willing to take money from you.
[/b]

The only fine I&#39;ve ever seen given in 3 years of running with NASA is $50 for not wearing nomex, as outlined in either the CCR (CLUB codes and regulations - empahsis mine.) or regional supps. Now, DQs? Yes. Suspensions? Yes. Do something stupid with evidence available to prove it and get penalized. Pretty simple.

Edit: example of "something stupid" that garners a penalty:
http://images.miller-motorsports.com/thill...alify_start.wmv (http://images.miller-motorsports.com/thill062505/video/sunday_qualify_start.wmv)

This driver was sat down for the weekend.

Marcus

[lateapex911]

So the RX-7 decided to play the role of a matchmaker? "Mr Porsche 944, meet Mr Toyota MR2"!

Worked well for you though, eh?/

So, a standing start? Cool!

[Marcus Miller]

You got it! The Mr2 had already been in one scuffle that weekend, and it was finally DOA.

It worked our fantastically for me, at least until I put two offand ended up 2nd.

Not only a standing start, but a 25 minute Qualifying race... Last year, we had 4 races each weekend.
:birra:
Marcus

[dickita15]

Why are pro races so different? Why do pro racers, a lot of whom also club race get so much more respect? Why do you see virtually no RFAs and protests as compared to club racing? Why are there 300 RFAs at the Runoffs and maybe three per year in CART? PLease explain that.
[/b]
The huge difference in a pro series is you have the same stewards in charge and the same driver pool every event. This allows a repore to be built. In club racing the stewards can’t really say “I am keeping an eye on you”. At a club race we probably never see the same chief steward twice in the same year.

[Bill Miller]

The only fine I&#39;ve ever seen given in 3 years of running with NASA is $50 for not wearing nomex, as outlined in either the CCR (CLUB codes and regulations - empahsis mine.) or regional supps. Now, DQs? Yes. Suspensions? Yes. Do something stupid with evidence available to prove it and get penalized. Pretty simple.

Edit: example of "something stupid" that garners a penalty:
http://images.miller-motorsports.com/thill...alify_start.wmv (http://images.miller-motorsports.com/thill062505/video/sunday_qualify_start.wmv)

This driver was sat down for the weekend.

Marcus
[/b]

Marcus,

What exactly was the infraction that the driver was penalized for? Looked like the Porsche was asleep at the switch when the flag flew. It also looked like he moved to the left.

[RKramden]

The huge difference in a pro series is you have the same stewards in charge and the same driver pool every event. This allows a repore to be built. In club racing the stewards can’t really say “I am keeping an eye on you”. At a club race we probably never see the same chief steward twice in the same year.
[/b]
Except for "The Book."

For NEDIV Nationals, it is (was) the "Red Book" (or it used to be.) At each race the CS fills out what some of the issues were, who needs to be watched, if there were drivers who acted like idiots, etc. It is delivered from race to race so the next CS has an idea of what was going on. When you are the CS at the next race you can read the history of the last few seasons.

I know at one time this was going to be done for NARRC races as well but I&#39;m not sure if it ever became part of the routine.

I don&#39;t think it is as much an issue with MARRS, as that is, for all intents, just one region.

[RKramden]

The only fine I&#39;ve ever seen given in 3 years of running with NASA is $50 for not wearing nomex, as outlined in either the CCR (CLUB codes and regulations - empahsis mine.) or regional supps. Now, DQs? Yes. Suspensions? Yes. Do something stupid with evidence available to prove it and get penalized. Pretty simple.
[/b]

Since I don&#39;t consider NASA as a "PRO" series, but still a dictatorship, all those actions make a lot more sense than fines. In a pro race, teams are businesses, and the event is all about the show, so fines have a much more direct impact on the teams in terms of profit/loss. You don&#39;t want to force teams to sit out a race, as that hurts the show. But you can take a few thousand without blinking and it does get their attention.

Just look at NASCAR. "Probation", yes. "Points", yes (hurts standings, and hence sponsorship potential plus end of year money.) "Fines", Yes, Yes, Yes. But almost never making a driver sit out the race, and then, the team brings in another driver, so the car is still running, keeping the sponsor happy. And, never anything that changes the "results". You don&#39;t get disqualified for an illegal car, but the car (or the illegal part) gets confiscated, you lose points, and the fines are rather heathy. The sin: "Actions detremential to NASCAR", which can mean anything. I bet some stewards would love to have a rule like that in the GCR, but that would open the door for more abuse than you (or Matt) could ever imagine. This "worker protesting a driver" stuff is small change.

[Mattberg]

The fact that you don&#39;t consider NASA "pro" racing and that you make a distinct differentiation is indication of the problem. You don&#39;t respect the drivers in the same way and that&#39;s a big issue for me and I think a lot of workers and officials feel the same way as you do. That&#39;s a problem IMHO.

I watched the greatest farce I&#39;ve ever witnessed a few years back when at least ten workers LIED in their testimony to protect another worker&#39;s misdeeds and an official&#39;s need to go after a specific driver. The audacity to do such can only come from lack of respect for what we ("amateur" drivers) are and do. I read the reports and ten workers claimed a driver drove on a cold track, yet there were six cars behind him when he came in including two others that were called into black flag BEHIND him. Only the one driver was sanctioned. Please explain that.

I&#39;ve changed my mind. The safeguards aren&#39;t worth it. Even in schools. Let the instructors take care of it. Workers are there for ONE thing. If they don&#39;t like it, walk away. But most do and it&#39;s why they&#39;re out there. It&#39;s why I did it. I NEVER would protest a driver, EVER if I weren&#39;t on track. But some think it makes them more a part of the action... peer level, important. That&#39;s ruining the club. It&#39;s becoming a status club not a racing club. I say change the protest rules.

[lateapex911]

I watched the greatest farce I&#39;ve ever witnessed a few years back when at least ten workers LIED in their testimony to protect another worker&#39;s misdeeds and an official&#39;s need to go after a specific driver. The audacity to do such can only come from lack of respect for what we ("amateur" drivers) are and do. I read the reports and ten workers claimed a driver drove on a cold track, yet there were six cars behind him when he came in including two others that were called into black flag BEHIND him. Only the one driver was sanctioned. Please explain that.


[/b]

This wouldn&#39;t be the famous incident where your brother, John Weisberg, ignored (I know, "allegedly" :rolleyes: ) a stop command and drove onto a closed track at the Runoffs in Mid Ohio, is it? Might the sanctions be due to the huge altercation and screaming match that ensued? (Which I understand you were involved in) Reports from non involved observers (not workers) listed that one as quite the spectical!

[Mattberg]

This wouldn&#39;t be the famous incident where your brother, John Weisberg, ignored (I know, "allegedly" :rolleyes: ) a stop command and drove onto a closed track at the Runoffs in Mid Ohio, is it? Might the sanctions be due to the huge altercation and screaming match that ensued? (Which I understand you were involved in) Reports from non involved observers (not workers) listed that one as quite the spectical!
[/b]

Well there you go Jake. You understand I was involved? Where did you hear that? I was in no way involved and never said a word nor was I accused of doing so or written up. I was with the car getting ready to bring it back to the paddock. You can add whomever said I was involved to those that would lie to make their point or protect their buddies and not hesitate to abuse the system.

[RKramden]

The fact that you don&#39;t consider NASA "pro" racing and that you make a distinct differentiation is indication of the problem.[/b]
If the problem is your lack of understanding, then I would agree. Have a look at this page (http://www.nasanortheast.org/about-us.htm) to see what my local NASA group thinks they are all about. That&#39;s not "Pro" racing at all. Heck, most of what they run isn&#39;t even racing, never mind "pro" racing.


You don&#39;t respect the drivers in the same way and that&#39;s a big issue for me and I think a lot of workers and officials feel the same way as you do. That&#39;s a problem IMHO.[/b]
Matt, Matt, Matt. What are we going to do. Because I didn&#39;t think of NASA as "Pro" racing, suddenly, you throw a few assumptions into the pot, toss in a couple off the wall conclusions, and spice the whole thing up with a leap of logic or two. Stir it about and you have soup. So, "Nasa isn&#39;t pro" equates to "Dave doesn&#39;t respect drivers." Astounding. All that throwing, tossing, and leaping, which you seem to keep doing at such a high rate, must keep you quite fit.

I respect drivers like Dick, Jake, TIm, Greg, and many others quite a bit. Yes, there are some drivers I have no respect for but they are the minority by far. Yes, there are officials I respect and as with drivers there are some officials I have no respect for. Respect isn&#39;t about being a "driver" or being an "official". Having the title of "Driver" or "Steward" does not demand respect. Nor should it.

All told, I probably respect a higher percentage of drivers than other groups of club racing participants, like officials or crew. Stewards, as a sub-set of officials, probably get the least. I&#39;m sure that dickita15 would gladly confirm that.


I watched the greatest farce I&#39;ve ever witnessed a few years back when at least ten workers LIED in their testimony to protect another worker&#39;s misdeeds and an official&#39;s need to go after a specific driver. The audacity to do such can only come from lack of respect for what we ("amateur" drivers) are and do. I read the reports and ten workers claimed a driver drove on a cold track, yet there were six cars behind him when he came in including two others that were called into black flag BEHIND him. Only the one driver was sanctioned. Please explain that. [/b]
Thanks for the eloquent proof of who lacks respect for whom. These topics, and the ones in other forums are replete with such proof. Thank you, really, thank you for providing oh so much proof.

As for the event you allude to (http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/File/03-12-fastrack.pdf) (Page 308, center column, bottom), it must have been some kind of conspiracy. Some vast underground conspiracy that the whole club execpt you knows all about. Maybe the Republicans are behind it. Or maybe Arlo Guthrie is behind it, and really wants everyone to sing a chorus of "Alice&#39;s Resturant". In harmony. With fealing.


I&#39;ve changed my mind. The safeguards aren&#39;t worth it. Even in schools. Let the instructors take care of it. Workers are there for ONE thing. If they don&#39;t like it, walk away. But most do and it&#39;s why they&#39;re out there. It&#39;s why I did it. I NEVER would protest a driver, EVER if I weren&#39;t on track. But some think it makes them more a part of the action... peer level, important. That&#39;s ruining the club. It&#39;s becoming a status club not a racing club. I say change the protest rules.
[/b]
All because I don&#39;t think of NASA, an organization that seems to mostly run HPDE events, time trials, autocrosses, drifting, and other such events, as "Pro" racing? It is amazing. Simply amazing.

Also, ad hominem attacks so belittle your argument.

Since you appear to have such major issues with just about everything in how the club operates, then please feel free to not pay your dues for the next year. As someone recently said: "If [you] don&#39;t like it, walk away."

[Mattberg]

You ignore the facts Dave and the basis for my argument. Someone within the worker/official community is making claims that I was involved in something where I clearly wasn&#39;t. That one would be willing to lie and/or pass along that lie to others is a sign of the lack of respect for participants on the driver side and also a sign of the worker/official community being separate from the driver community. It&#39;s un unfortunate wedge created by what I believe is everything from jealousy to ego. To not believe it&#39;s there is naive. We&#39;ve all seen it. I only wish to see it removeed as an aspect or impact on the actual racing.

The flagger that protested Tim had a right to do so but no place in doing it. He was a spectator protesting technique. That&#39;s a formula for chaos. That right must be restricted. Racers are the show. We&#39;ve turned it into event run by hall monitors who feel they need to exercise their rights in order to feel good. They have little respect for the racers who provide the product and feel they need to display their peer level status. THat&#39;s all it is. THey wouldn&#39;t do it at a pro event. That&#39;s the point.

[lateapex911]

...... Someone within the worker/official community is making claims that I was involved in something where I clearly wasn&#39;t.....
[/b]

Where do you get that??? I merely related that it was observed that there was a huge screaming session, and I understood that you were involde, but I guess not.(although maybe you should have been, pulling John away).

Nobody said anything about an official....and ....oh nevermind.

Honestly..... does anyone buy the tortured and trumped up pablum that you spew??

[Mattberg]

Where do you get that??? I merely related that it was observed that there was a huge screaming session, and I understood that you were involde, but I guess not.(although maybe you should have been, pulling John away).

Nobody said anything about an official....and ....oh nevermind.

Honestly..... does anyone buy the tortured and trumped up pablum that you spew??
[/b]


I did pull John away. That was my involvement. No one was pulling back the obscenity spewing official Peter Olivola. The other workers and officials actually seemed to be enjoying it. Bunch of people eho complain about $100 to enjoy doing what they do while we&#39;re spending $10,000 to provide the medium. Nice. Ask Peter if he got expense money to be there. Bet he did.

As far as buying the conspiracy that occured I could care less if you do or don&#39;t. It happenened and it&#39;s in the past. I know that it happenend and it can happen again. Workers and officials now run the club. They have proven to me that they will go to any lengths to support their own and we as drivers are on our own.

Jake you like to argue with me but the facts are that the club is no longer ours. Paupers with nothing more than a passing interest can protest us. Makes them feel good. THey can ruin a $80K investment with a single lie and get it backed up by ten people just based on the fact that I have more money than they do and the jealousy of such. Makes them feel better. I&#39;ve seen it happen first hand so don&#39;t tell me it can&#39;t happen.

There are four levels of people. Those who do it. Those who want to do it but can&#39;t for financial reasons. Those who simply don&#39;t want to take the risk, financially or phyiscally. Those who would like to do it but physically can&#39;t. Anyone other than those who do it should honor the fact there are people that do it so they can enjoy it. But they don&#39;t. They want to be part of the action. It&#39;s sad but true.

[Gary L]

Paupers with nothing more than a passing interest can protest us. Makes them feel good. THey can ruin a $80K investment with a single lie and get it backed up by ten people just based on the fact that I have more money than they do and the jealousy of such. Makes them feel better. [/b]

Well, ya gotta love it... an elitist racer, driving an SSC Neon. :lol:

[lateapex911]

I

Jake you like to argue with me..................
[/b]

No, I merely am stupid enought to attempt to provide an alternative view that isn&#39;t trumped up BS.

Did you ever wonder why John was sanctioned yet nobody else was in the incident you refer to, when you state 6 others committed the same offense??

Hint:

It&#39;s the same reason you find that 90% of the people roll their eyes when they read your posts.

[Mattberg]

No, I merely am stupid enought to attempt to provide an alternative view that isn&#39;t trumped up BS.

Did you ever wonder why John was sanctioned yet nobody else was in the incident you refer to, when you state 6 others committed the same offense??

Hint:

It&#39;s the same reason you find that 90% of the people roll their eyes when they read your posts.
[/b]


You just admitted to everthing I&#39;ve said. Abuse. Not only that. You endorse the abuse.

[lateapex911]

You just admitted to everthing I&#39;ve said. Abuse. Not only that. You endorse the abuse.
[/b]

Oooooooo..
Shiver me timbers............

:rolleyes:


:wacko:

I&#39;m done.


cheers~

[RKramden]

Oooooooo..
Shiver me timbers............[/b]I think Matt might be from Bizarro. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizarro#The_Bizarro_World) :dead_horse:

[lateapex911]

I think Matt might be from Bizarro. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizarro#The_Bizarro_World) :dead_horse:
[/b]


Lol...gotcha...here&#39;s a quote from Bizarro:


Though Bizarro acts in what he believes to be the best manner, his Bizarro logic often causes him to act for evil.[/b]

[benspeed]

I just keep coming back to this thread because this mattberg character is funnier than the comics. My eyes hurt from the contant rolling :blink:

Jake - you win the patient parent award - case of beer says you have kids at home. My 8 year old son was reading some of the "writings" with me and he said, "dad, this guy sounds very unhappy. He thinks people are after him".

[dickita15]

WOW that is one heck of a smart 8 year old.

[benspeed]

Looks like Mattberg was run off by an 8 year old kid....

[lateapex911]

Sometimes kids have the clearest vision, and it&#39;s hard to argue with that!

[BobsAuto]

Perhaps an alien in disguise? Trying to get into our heads? I think we are all too strong.

[RSTPerformance]

Perhaps an alien in disguise? Trying to get into our heads? I think we are all too strong.
[/b]


Sorry but What???? :wacko: lol


Raymond "your son" Blethen

[Mattberg]

I just keep coming back to this thread because this mattberg character is funnier than the comics. My eyes hurt from the contant rolling :blink:

Jake - you win the patient parent award - case of beer says you have kids at home. My 8 year old son was reading some of the "writings" with me and he said, "dad, this guy sounds very unhappy. He thinks people are after him".
[/b]


Just tell your son that I only hope he has the same opportunity that I did, to grow up around real racing, race fans and people not looking to build or protect their egos and someday participate in it. WIth a club now run and dominated by non-driving officials, stewards and non-road racers that may not be in his future. That to me is sad. Here&#39;s how the official/worker centric elected officials are doing:

National racing percentage gain/loss for the year:

FM -1
SRF -4
DSR -7
HP -9
GP -10
GT-3 -12
GT-1 -13
CSR -16
EP -16
FF -16
GT-2 -17
T-1 -19
FV -24
FA -26
SSC -26
T-2 -27
FP -27
FC -27
S2 -40
SSB -40
AS -41
GT-L -44
F500 -50

Nice job. Maybe the worst performance of any management group ever assembled. That&#39;s why you don&#39;t elect secretaries and welders to the BOD regardless of how good an SCCA official she or he might be. It&#39;s a multi million dollar operation. BUt workers and officials dominate the vote. Imagine having a company with 25+ products and every single one of them realized a loss. THrow in a major litigation loss due to lack of knowledge of how to run an organization and STUPID actions that I warned them about prior to when they violated and became liable, ( I sent a letter and legal brief to BoD member Eric Skirmants on the risks of BoD involvement in operations and the theoretical application of Surbannes Oxley principles to non profits, backed up with an article on the same topic from the Harvard Law Review, which was obviously ignored) and the writing is pretty much on the wall. For the eight year old who listens in here... I told them not to put a wire in the electrical socket but they still wanted to try it thinking they&#39;d get a gumball. :D

Voting rights, family memberships and multiple votes, three year olds and dogs voting (I know of a worker who has his wife, dog and three year old son on his family membership and votes their votes. One man four votes), workers protesting drivers for on track competition issues, officials making rules who know nothing about racing, officials protesting other officials for not handing out severe enough penalties (that one really irks me. Fritz Baker should be taken out and flogged) Idiots refusing to classify cars to protect their friend&#39;s interests and standing, secretaries and layman with no practical experience getting voted to the BoD... all things that are pushing educated, informed drivers with readily disposabale income away to other organizations. We are cultivating the paupers and budget racers and losing the high profile racers. It&#39;s actually becoming more cost effective and more fun and hassle free to go pro racing for many.

Add our financial woes to the mix and the future is none to bright given no change. (maybe not all of you caught in the financials that we&#39;ve maxed out our credit letters) But I still hope deep down that things work out and your son does get the chance and opportunity I had, within a great organization, to participate and maybe race if that&#39;s what he wants.

[BobsAuto]

Have you ever stopped to think that the numbers are down due to the state of the economy in this country as a whole? How many of those drivers are servicemen/women putting their lives on the line for the US in Iraq? How many people can even afford gas these days to support their racing habit? How many people have gone from upper middle class to lower middle class because their pay increases do not equal the cost of living increases? You seem to have blinders on as to the rest of the nation and what is involved with survival vs. play? Grow up and take time to see the forest from the trees.

[Mattberg]

That&#39;s a blind rationalization Bob. You&#39;re simply guessing and you have NO data to back up your specualations. Porsche Club isn&#39;t having any problems. NASA is on the rise. I actually tried to get into the March race at Sebring and couldn&#39;t. It was FULL! When was the last time you heard that at an SCCA race.

Fact is that every sport has experienced an increase over the last 12 months in attendance including an astonishing 30% increase in baseball for a second year in a row since a steady decline following the strike. You been to a ballgame recently? You know what it costs? I went to a b-ball game a couple of weeks back. Almost two bills for Diana and myself and the game was sold out.

It&#39;s people like you that blindly follow the morons that get elected and make excuses for them when they fail that has put us in this position. THe economy? Paaalease. My IBM stock I bought three years ago is still worth more than 50% of the strike from three years ago. THe DOW is still right around where it was before the huge SCCA losses started. It&#39;s been static for three years. You&#39;re talking out your butt with layman speculation spouting off opinions on topics you obviously know nothing about. THe only big change in the economy is a bunch of idiots who were paying $800 a month for an interest only ARM on houses they couldn&#39;t afford in the first place and are now looking at a BK. THey aren&#39;t racers. And as far as the Iraq conflict causing 40% + decreases in SCCA participation? Are you on drugs? That&#39;s insane specualtion. Please back that up. I&#39;d bet there aren&#39;t 5 racers in Iraq. Simply nonsense.

Do you think it&#39;s right for a worker&#39;s dog and three year old kid to vote in an election for an organization where a third party provides 100% of all the supporting funds?

[Andy Bettencourt]

For th sake of arguement, IT has never been stronger and SM is the largest class in National right now. How many have jumped to SM from undersubscribed classes to actually race every weekend?

[lateapex911]

Well Matt, if what you say is true (and I trust your presentation as far as I can throw a loaded refridgerator), what are you going to DO about it??

What ACTION will you take?

More whining? More insulting? More attacking anyone that dares disagree? More posts from the biggest chronic malcontent/complainer this or most other BBSs have ever seen?

According to you, you know best, you know everything that everybody is doing wrong...and you know all about everything. If you&#39;re so good, pick a problem, any problem, and fix it. Post when you&#39;ve actually accomplished something.

Or get off the pot.

[Ed Funk]

:birra: Don&#39;t hold back Jake, you&#39;re being much too gentle! :happy204:

[BobsAuto]

That&#39;s a blind rationalization Bob.

--Oh, BTW, Bob cannot use the computer as he cannot see the words. So, don&#39;t assume that when the signature has two names that it&#39;s the guy answering. --

You&#39;re simply guessing and you have NO data to back up your specualations.

--Blind? No, realistic. Data, plenty. For instance, more people came without their campers to NHIS than with to the NASCAR event because they couldn&#39;t afford the gas. MANY had for sale signs. Yes, the crowds were still their, but in car pools and two or three families to a camper as opposed to one family to a camper or driving up alone. Oh yes, and those who have had tickets for years but needed to sell them and were in LINE to sell them at the track so they could afford gas for work...--

It&#39;s people like you that blindly follow the morons that get elected and make excuses for them when they fail that has put us in this position.

--I make no excuses for no one. I don&#39;t BLINDLY follow the "morons" who got elected. Personally, I never voted for the idiots that presently run the country. --

THe economy? Paaalease. My IBM stock I bought three years ago is still worth more than 50% of the strike from three years ago.
Guess you wouldn&#39;t know what a fixed income is. Or what&#39;s it&#39;s like to have your IRA loose money 2 years in a row....or not be able to cover medical costs because your HMO won&#39;t cover it or can&#39;t afford your medications because they aren&#39;t APPROVED by your HMO.....I forgot, you live in CA and live in the "perfect" world out there. --


You&#39;re talking out your butt with layman speculation spouting off opinions on topics you obviously know nothing about.

--Am I a layman? No more so than you are. Talking out of my butt? Never. --

THe only big change in the economy is a bunch of idiots who were paying $800 a month for an interest only ARM on houses they couldn&#39;t afford in the first place and are now looking at a BK. THey aren&#39;t racers.

--Oh, Really? You REALLY don&#39;t have a clue about anything, do you? I know many a racer who is paying that and more and are racers or former racers who can&#39;t afford to run anymore because a house over their heads is more important than the hobby. --

And as far as the Iraq conflict causing 40% + decreases in SCCA participation? Are you on drugs?

--No, I am NOT on drugs. I know of two drivers who were intending to build cars here in Loudon and could not because they are now in Iraq. There&#39;s 40% of one town of racers alone. --

That&#39;s insane specualtion. Please back that up. I&#39;d bet there aren&#39;t 5 racers in Iraq.


--Gee, I guess my step-son must have lied to me when he was there and met a few....--
Simply nonsense.

Do you think it&#39;s right for a worker&#39;s dog and three year old kid to vote in an election for an organization where a third party provides 100% of all the supporting funds?

--For a matter of fact, I must say that I agree with you on this one simple point. I also agree with the general consensus that you are an egotistical maniac who, from my humble opinion and with my knowledge of many disorders feel you are either manic depressive or bi-polar. I can just picture you at your computer ranting and turning red with the temper tantrums everytime you write. Might I suggest you see one of the many psychiatrists that race in SCCA and get some counselling? As I said, grow up and well, nevermind. Oh, yeh, as Jake said, What ARE you going to DO about it? :dead_horse: :dead_horse: :dead_horse: --
[/b]

[Mattberg]

You really need to look beyond your backyard window to get the bigger picture. You made some typical rationalization comments. First, people "intending to build cars"... I wish I had a dime for every time I heard that one. Pure fiction. People who talk about it rarely get to the track. The ones who do are few and far between Second, the fixed income argument... You really shouldn&#39;t be involved in racing if that&#39;s the case. It&#39;s an expensive hobby. But the club is catering to those people and the results are what we have now which was the original point. We try and protect investments and make it possible for those old junkers to keep running competitively and nurture those who can&#39;t afford $100 for gas. Meanwhile, we push the growth element off to other organizations. I think you&#39;ve allowed your own personal situation and perhaps a few others close to you generate your overall view.

What am I going to do about it? Nothing. Look for other organizations and keep my SCCA membership for as long as the club stays afloat. I personally can&#39;t fix the problems and certainly can&#39;t fight the masses who control the club and have steered it in a terrible direction. I can bring the facts to light and see if it can generate change.

You want some changes that will keep the drivers now being lost to other organizations? Here&#39;s a couple of suggestions:

1. Leave the racing to the racers. No worker or official protests.
2. Revise voting. One vote per paid license.
3. Reduce the number of classes. Combine and consolidate.
4. Create a CoA of drivers only.
5. Create an event based CoA of 6 participating drivers selected randomly that carry final word over any protests.
6. Create policy that at least 6 active drivers sit on the BoD.
7. Reduce insurance benefits and coverage for non-drivers/workers.
8. Eliminate membership fees for workers.
9. Open up the books in Topeka.
10. Eliminate the National convention and SCCA University
11. Pay workers but not officials unless they also work a specialty.
12. Universal common internet entry system and common software for every region
13. Universal live timing and scoring
14. All safety issues to be determined by driver CoA.
15. The BoD may not meet or talk with anyone related to business operations of the club.


That would be a start. :birra:

[Mattberg]

...and one other I forgot:

Add regional classes to the participation formula for the Runoffs 24 classes. At our club&#39;s showcase event I&#39;d rather see a good IT battle than 12 CSRs with two of them lapping the field. :015:

[benspeed]

Well Mattberg, I have goofed on you a bit on this site but I did run across and example of worker excess that now makes me appreciate your perspective a little. I was going to grid for a hardship run at Watkins Glen and was unaware that you needed a special hardship coupon to get on track. Nothing in the supps about that. I was suited up and ready to go and they wouldn&#39;t let me on track. I did bitch the policy was BS and I&#39;d never heard of such a thing before. Then they told me to back up and get off grid in a very insulting manner. I began to back up and at the last second noticed the wing of a FC car directly behind me and nearly ran the guy over. The grid workers totally walked away from me and I was unable to see anything with a hans on in a full sized SPO stocker. Totally unsafe situation.

When I did finally get off grid (without any help from the grid workers) I came back and politely introduced myself and told the grid workers that I thought they had been very unsafe in how they handled me and my car on grid. Not only did the guy start shaking his finger right in my face and calling me a "young fella" (I&#39;m 41) he told me he was going to write me up and I wouldn&#39;t be able to race.

I reiterated I was not pleased with the way they handled grid and said they should be more careful and walked off.

20 minutes later I am summoned to the tower over the loudspeakers. Fortunately the Chief Steward was a totally reasonable guy (Bill) and asked me for my side of the story first. He then apologized about what happened at grid and asked me to apologize to the workers - which I did because he asked me to and what does it really take to say sorry even if you think you did nothing wrong. (I was accused of disrespecting an official when I said the policy was BS - grow a thicker skin worker.)

So the end of the day the worker was looking to ruin my race weekend over nothing. Makes me think less of the workers and why they "volunteer". I know not everybody who is a worker doesn&#39;t shove thier hand in your face and try to screw up your weekend but I would rather race with workers who are paid and don&#39;t get to screw with you. Volunteerism is a home for many malfunctions and we seem to collect many.

At the NNJR board where I volunteer - nothing but top talent and great people to work with. I don&#39;t know what to think of the grid worker other than I should not let this one person prejudice my opinion of the others.

[lateapex911]

At the NNJR board where I volunteer - nothing but top talent and great people to work with. I don&#39;t know what to think of the grid worker other than I should not let this one person prejudice my opinion of the others.
[/b]

Well, that&#39;s EXACTLY the situation. One bad apple can really piss you off! But you have to remember, that usually, if you deal with it rationally, you&#39;ll find the person up the ladder to listen, and often get steamed when they hear your side.

When I read about your situation, I thought about it happening at the tracks we run..can you imagine Karen or any grid worker acting like that?? I can&#39;t.

Of course bad things happen....in all organizations. But I think it&#39;s usually an exception to the rule in the SCCA. And as such, working from within the system can help rectify it, as you&#39;ve done.

[Bill Miller]

Ben,

Was it an SCCA worker, or was it a Race Communications worker? BTW, you want to hear how workers shove their weight around, go read the thread on the Prod board about paddock speed. :018:

[JohnRW]

For those keeping a &#39;Mattberg as Hamlet&#39; journal, we have the following Mattberg post from specmiata.com, posted 02-03-2005 at 3:32 PM:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MattBerg)</div>


Thanks Jim. You hit the button. And to be clear I&#39;m not citing or alleging malfeasance...Just want to get an idea about how the money is handled. I don&#39;t think that&#39;s asking too much. Especially considering that our recent elections have put people with virtually NO finance experience in place. To be told it&#39;s none of my business bothers me.

As a result I am going to run for the BoD and although I&#39;m pretty sure they&#39;ll kick me out if I win, I&#39;ve been told by enough people to shit or get off the pot
[/b]


Static & noise. All I hear is static and noise. When will it all go away ? Enough of the &#39;savior/martyr&#39; crap...I&#39;m thinking &#39;egotistic megalomaniac&#39;.

Hamlet.

[lateapex911]

For those keeping a &#39;Mattberg as Hamlet&#39; journal,[/b]

LOL...like I have that kind of storage space on my computer! Sheesh!! I&#39;ve only got 100Gig Hard drive!


Enough of the &#39;savior/martyr&#39; crap...I&#39;m thinking &#39;egotistic megalomaniac&#39;.

Hamlet.
[/b]

Well, that&#39;s a nice fancy uptown/educated term for it......

[JohnRW]

Well, that&#39;s a nice fancy uptown/educated term for it......
[/b]

I figured that the moderators might disapprove if I wrote "shit-head".

[RKramden]

Race Communications worker[/b]

Boy, I haven&#39;t heard about RCA in a long, long time.

They used to be big back when the Glen had the F1 race.

You had to show up for uniform inspection each day, and you had to have the number of days you had worked on your sholder with boy scout numbers. No kidding.

Your "flagger whites" had to be clean and PRESSED, no rips or tears, all the right patches and emblems, and a red hat. Had to have the red baseball cap. It was a BIG DEAL.

We used to call them Red Capped Assh$#@&.

I have a pile of "RCA" storries. Ask me next time you see me drinking a beer. :lol:

D

[benspeed]

Well, that&#39;s EXACTLY the situation. One bad apple can really piss you off! But you have to remember, that usually, if you deal with it rationally, you&#39;ll find the person up the ladder to listen, and often get steamed when they hear your side.

When I read about your situation, I thought about it happening at the tracks we run..can you imagine Karen or any grid worker acting like that?? I can&#39;t.

Of course bad things happen....in all organizations. But I think it&#39;s usually an exception to the rule in the SCCA. And as such, working from within the system can help rectify it, as you&#39;ve done.
[/b]


I can&#39;t imagine folks on our grids doing that kind of deal - I&#39;ve never had any kind of weird situation at grid and always feel like procedure is so synchronized and well planned. You don&#39;t see people waving their hands and telling you to back up while other cars are coming up to grid behind you.

Never the like in my experience.

[RSTPerformance]

Matt-



You really need to look beyond your backyard window to get the bigger picture. You made some typical rationalization comments. [/b]

Look beyond your own backyard... You don&#39;t have the best grass, the best garage, or even the best dog either... ok maybe you do, I will never come to visit so I wont know.



First, people "intending to build cars"... I wish I had a dime for every time I heard that one. Pure fiction. People who talk about it rarely get to the track. The ones who do are few and far between [/b]

Agreed most people don&#39;t build a car, but those that do are the ones we play with every weekend. Each person who is "intending to build a car" are some of our best hopes for "new membership." Those are the ones we need to push just a little further and show them how much fun we can be.



Second, the fixed income argument... You really shouldn&#39;t be involved in racing if that&#39;s the case. It&#39;s an expensive hobby. But the club is catering to those people and the results are what we have now which was the original point. We try and protect investments and make it possible for those old junkers to keep running competitively and nurture those who can&#39;t afford $100 for gas. Meanwhile, we push the growth element off to other organizations. I think you&#39;ve allowed your own personal situation and perhaps a few others close to you generate your overall view. [/b]

If you are on a fixed income you may be our best members... You might not race but we can certainly use the help, and we will give you a good show for a bonus!!! :035:




What am I going to do about it? Nothing. Look for other organizations and keep my SCCA membership for as long as the club stays afloat. I personally can&#39;t fix the problems and certainly can&#39;t fight the masses who control the club and have steered it in a terrible direction. I can bring the facts to light and see if it can generate change. [/b]

Your not going to do anything cause you suck. :dead_horse:




You want some changes that will keep the drivers now being lost to other organizations? Here&#39;s a couple of suggestions:

1. Leave the racing to the racers. No worker or official protests.
You really need to get into that SIT program and get a clue... whats the problem? nobody wants to be your mentor?

2. Revise voting. One vote per paid license.
Agreed

3. Reduce the number of classes. Combine and consolidate.
Agreed, however the "poster clubs" that you WISH we were have more classes than we do. Everytime someone new shows up who isn&#39;t competitive those clubs just make a new class.

4. Create a CoA of drivers only.
Again you really need to get into that SIT program and get a clue... whats the problem? nobody wants to be your mentor?

5. Create an event based CoA of 6 participating drivers selected randomly that carry final word over any protests.
Again you really need to get into that SIT program and get a clue... It is amaizingly difficult to race and be on the SOM. It certainly takes a VERY dedicated person to do that. If you want people who are not racing that weekend good luck... MOST of the drivers do not go to races that they are not competing in, and if they do it is to sociolize, not work. (Everyone don&#39;t get mad at me, I said MOST, not ALL!!!)

6. Create policy that at least 6 active drivers sit on the BoD.
[b]Possibly a good idea, but again, find 6 drivers willing to go that extra mile. Also prove to me by giving examples of current BOD members who are not performing a good job? I am not aware of "the bad ones."

7. Reduce insurance benefits and coverage for non-drivers/workers.
I would not reduce the benefit as anyone can get hurt, however I would be interested to see if the plan charges different rates for the different "duties" depending on risk?

8. Eliminate membership fees for workers.
Agreed

9. Open up the books in Topeka.
You can&#39;t please everyone, this will only open up issues that don&#39;t need to be open. And honestly I am more concerned about my local region and I get involved so I also keep myself informed.

10. Eliminate the National convention and SCCA University
Agreed... Others that post here, can you tell me the "benefit" of either one?

11. Pay workers but not officials unless they also work a specialty.
Paying workers will only loose more money for the club. While I would love to see workers paid a $$$ amount I don&#39;t think it is feasable. However I must say NER does a great job at paying "worker bucks" as well as rafling off the worker fund at the end of each day. Personaly though I do think that the worker fund could generate more money if it was handled differently.

12. Universal common internet entry system and common software for every region
Agreed

13. Universal live timing and scoring
Agreed

14. All safety issues to be determined by driver CoA.
Again you really need to get into that SIT program and get a clue... whats the problem? nobody wants to be your mentor?

15. The BoD may not meet or talk with anyone related to business operations of the club.
That would be a start. :birra:
What???

16. Add regional classes to the participation formula for the Runoffs 24 classes. At our club&#39;s showcase event I&#39;d rather see a good IT battle than 12 CSRs with two of them lapping the field. :015:
Some days I agree woth you and some days I don&#39;t


Interesting that I agreed with you that some of the above are things we could do better, however they certainly are not things that turn our membership away. People like you is a far better example of what pushes people away.

Those issues that I don&#39;t agree with you I honestly think it is because sometimes I have a clue and you don&#39;t have a clue. Those areas if you were to only do something and volunteer you could "get a clue" Do IT ALREDY!!!

Raymond

oh and PS: I am one of those poor racers who can&#39;t afford to get IBM stocks because I race, and I am running a POS car, so you must think I shouldn&#39;t be racing and/or that I have no right to be in our club. I have my $$$ in the right places and my talent still in good shape... I would challenge you anyday. bring it :cavallo:

[BobsAuto]

Boy, Raymond, You said it so well! :happy204:

I bet his teachers couldn&#39;t stand him in school either! :bash_1_:

[RSTPerformance]

Boy, Raymond, You said it so well! :happy204:

I bet his teachers couldn&#39;t stand him in school either! :bash_1_:
[/b]


Many teachers couldn&#39;t stand me in school either... :rolleyes:

While most of us disagree with Matt on everything remember to look at things with an open mind and realize

1. He is NOT from our region and his problems probably stem from his local region. He has clearly stated that when he was younger he didn&#39;t feel SCCA had many of these issues... When he was younger he came from the Northeast. I think if he were here today he might have a different opinion on many things.

2. He has brought up sever points that we could work on as a "National Organization." - let me restate, SCCA Localy to my region (NER) is not a region I think needs changes... NER IMO does a fantastic job and other regions should come and learn from us if they are having problems.

And lastly mom I got to call you on it... just posting that "I said it so well" would have been enough, we (including me) don&#39;t need the one line bashes that follow every statement.

Raymond

PS: you might wonder where my new found love for matt coming from???? First, its not love and I still wish he would stop posting negative comments about our wonderful club and back of his envolvement and just come and race and be done with it. However I will admit we had a private conversatin about a list of things that he has run up against with SCCA, unfortunatly I wasn&#39;t able to argue any of the issues for two reasons... 1. I have no information either way if he is tellig the truth or not but more importantly 2. I could see all of his problems throughout the years actually happaning.

[BobsAuto]

Many teachers couldn&#39;t stand me in school either... :rolleyes:

I mostly disagree with that, but then again, you must know better...:)
And lastly mom I got to call you on it... just posting that "I said it so well" would have been enough, we (including me) don&#39;t need the one line bashes that follow every statement.

Yes, you are right. I DID lower myself on that one.

PS: you might wonder where my new found love for matt coming from???? First, its not love and I still wish he would stop posting negative comments about our wonderful club and back of his envolvement and just come and race and be done with it. However I will admit we had a private conversatin about a list of things that he has run up against with SCCA, unfortunatly I wasn&#39;t able to argue any of the issues for two reasons... 1. I have no information either way if he is tellig the truth or not but more importantly 2. I could see all of his problems throughout the years actually happaning.
[/b]

[b]It has been mentioned to me by several people you have worked with in the SIT program that anything you say is well thought out and with basis. I agree, Matt should come and see what NER is doing right and maybe he would see that maybe that the problems he is encountering are possibly not part of SCCA as a whole. NER does do a fantastic job and the people involved with NER, drivers, workers, AND officials have worked hard to make it a fun place to play. Keep up the good work that you, yourself, do. You are a credit to the organization.

Mom, your sometimes "dumb" one at that. B)

[benspeed]

Ben,

Was it an SCCA worker, or was it a Race Communications worker? BTW, you want to hear how workers shove their weight around, go read the thread on the Prod board about paddock speed. :018:
[/b]

Hi Bill,

I missed your question - it was an SCCA worker. I won&#39;t name the guy cause that wouldn&#39;t be cool.

Cheers,

BP

[jjjanos]

You want some changes that will keep the drivers now being lost to other organizations? Here&#39;s a couple of suggestions:

1. Leave the racing to the racers. No worker or official protests.[/b]

Ah yes. Have a driver mow down a flagger and receive no penalty. Have a driver be verbally abusive and possibly physically abusive and receive no penalty. Why? Because no other driver was involved.

I&#39;ve flagged NASA events and frankly, I&#39;ve never seen a bigger bunch of idiots in my life. Drivers blowing two red flags - one of which was being displayed by a flagger leaping in the air (and later commented on by spectators in the stands) and locking their brakes when they realize that there are a half dozen cars stopped in front of them. I ended up with 7! cars sitting in the grass because they didn&#39;t realize they had to stop until they saw the stopped traffic. Thank gawd the grass had dried by that point otherwise it would have been total mayhem.


3. Reduce the number of classes. Combine and consolidate.[/b]

Entirely counter-productive to your purpose. You&#39;ve either made one group of cars very uncompetitive or you&#39;ve significantly increased the cost to one or both classes you&#39;ve consolidated - I&#39;ve either got to buy lots of go fast parts to race with the guys in the faster class or I need to buy go slow parts to be legal.


4. Create a CoA of drivers only.[/b]

And what do you do when you cannot find sufficient number of drivers both qualified and willing to serve? Active drivers only or any one who once held a license?


6. Create policy that at least 6 active drivers sit on the BoD.[/b]

And since the BoD is elected by geographical area, how do you decide which area gets stuck electing someone they don&#39;t want just because he has a license? Please define "active"... currently licensed? run more than 5 races each year? someone who is your good friend?


7. Reduce insurance benefits and coverage for non-drivers/workers.[/b]
Which does what to keep DRIVERS from leaving? Or do you think that the marginal cost of this insurance coverage will keep people within the club?


15. The BoD may not meet or talk with anyone related to business operations of the club. [/b]

And thus the purpose of the BoD (you know, the folks who RUN the freaking organization) would be what?

[Mattberg]

Ah yes. Have a driver mow down a flagger and receive no penalty.[/b]

You can&#39;t possibly be serious. That is the most utterly ridculous comment and supposition I&#39;ve ever heard in defense of a worker&#39;s right to protest. :rolleyes:

[RKramden]

You can&#39;t possibly be serious. That is the most utterly ridculous comment and supposition I&#39;ve ever heard in defense of a worker&#39;s right to protest.
[/b]

Mr. Pot, let me introduce you to Mr. Kettle. Mr. Kettle, this is Mr. Pot. :018:

Considering that you have managed to make some of the "most utterly ridculous comment[s] and supposition[s]" in this very topic, of any I have ever read in any racing forum, anywhere, if find this statement very, very funny.

Of course, there is always an exception. The great "Piggly-Wiggly" comments in the prod forum were really, really stupid as well.

But, wasn&#39;t it you who made those as well?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
:dead_horse:

[JohnRW]

At least he shares some family personality traits with his relative, Pol Pot.

Interesting symmetry, huh ?

[jjjanos]

You can&#39;t possibly be serious. That is the most utterly ridculous comment and supposition I&#39;ve ever heard in defense of a worker&#39;s right to protest. :rolleyes:
[/b]

It is a logical consequence of your desire to remove the ability of officials to protest drivers for the drivers&#39; on-course behavior. No other driver in the field has a dog in the hunt. Driver stops at the station, checks car, tries to leave without doing his belts and gets verbally abusive when I won&#39;t let him. Since you want to remove my ability to protest that driver.... who is going to protest him for his -

1. Failure to obey the directions of an official
2. Abuse of an official
3. Unsportsmanlike conduct
(I would define these, but I understand that you are well aware of these infractions.)

No other driver was involved.

And please get this straight skippy... I&#39;m not a worker... I am an official and an official&#39;s responsibility is to ensure that potential violations of the rules are investigated. If I see a pass under the yellow that endangers my co-officials and the power&#39;s that be do nothing about it... you bet I&#39;ll file a protest because it&#39;s my arse that&#39;s going to be mowed down when some stupid driver blows a flag and plows into me or my barrier. Remove my ability to protest a driver who ignores a yellow flag and you remove me from officiating your event.

You want to make me a worker... fine. Give me an hourly salary, workers compensation when I get hurt and an OSHA inspection of my work area. You&#39;ve just seen the last of your hot-pulls and every time a car needs to be yanked, you&#39;ll go FCY because no way OSHA will let anyone out on a hot track.

I&#39;m sorry your brother was a real chowder head at Mid-Ohio and got penalized for his boorish behavior. I&#39;m sorry that your brother was ignorant and unaware that he could have protested the actions of an abusive official. I&#39;m sorry that you are unable to realize why your brother was penalized, but it had more to do with what he did when he came in to the pits then for ignoring the direction of an official.

[Mattberg]

Mr. Pot, let me introduce you to Mr. Kettle. Mr. Kettle, this is Mr. Pot. :018:

Considering that you have managed to make some of the "most utterly ridculous comment[s] and supposition[s]" in this very topic, of any I have ever read in any racing forum, anywhere, if find this statement very, very funny.

Of course, there is always an exception. The great "Piggly-Wiggly" comments in the prod forum were really, really stupid as well.

But, wasn&#39;t it you who made those as well?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
:dead_horse:
[/b]


Can you tell me what comments I made that were even close to as outrageous as a driver running down a worker on track with intent to harm, maim or kill? Think about that supposition for a moment, please. Do you really forsee that as a possibility? And please tell me what was stupid about the "piggly wiggly" comments other than the fact that a worker of the year lied out his ass along with numberous other officials and workers and when yet another worker lied about witnessing here on the net and later recanted they used the whole piggly wiggly thing to create a joke and diffuse the situation? All you&#39;re doing is trying to discredit the messenger in order to avoid the truth. Give me some comments I made that compare. Give me something I said that was as unreasonable as a driver running down a worker. Post them. I doubt we&#39;ll see anything from you other than more unsupported pro-official commentary and opinions without backup. But I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll say anything to keep that shiny whistle and the ability and opportunity to blow it.

[jjjanos]

Can you tell me what comments I made that were even close to as outrageous as a driver running down a worker on track with intent to harm, maim or kill?[/b]

Excuse me, but where did I say that there was intent?

How about just plain old incompetence - like over driving a yellow, spinning and hitting an official?

How about this scenario... driver has loose exhaust, violates sound level, gets black flagged while leading, looses temper when told at black flag that he has to park it, roars away at excessive speed from black flag, looses exhaust entering paddock (nearly hitting pit official with the flying exhaust) and proceeds to race back to his paddock space at a speed well in excess of paddock speed limit.

Hypothetical? Unlikely? Well it happened at Waterford Hills in the early 1980s and the driver was a National Champion.

What punishment do you think is fitting for such a driver?

More importantly, since none of the people he was racing against say the incident, whose going to protest them?

Is the intent of your proposal simply to allow your brother to behave as boorish as he would like to the race officials?

[Mattberg]

Excuse me, but where did I say that there was intent?

How about just plain old incompetence - like over driving a yellow, spinning and hitting an official?

How about this scenario... driver has loose exhaust, violates sound level, gets black flagged while leading, looses temper when told at black flag that he has to park it, roars away at excessive speed from black flag, looses exhaust entering paddock (nearly hitting pit official with the flying exhaust) and proceeds to race back to his paddock space at a speed well in excess of paddock speed limit.

Hypothetical? Unlikely? Well it happened at Waterford Hills in the early 1980s and the driver was a National Champion.

What punishment do you think is fitting for such a driver?

More importantly, since none of the people he was racing against say the incident, whose going to protest them?

Is the intent of your proposal simply to allow your brother to behave as boorish as he would like to the race officials?
[/b]

Simple... It&#39;s a non-racing incident. Protest all you want. This thread is about a worker critiquing a totally legal line under the rules. THat&#39;s what I find objectionable. I also find it objectionable that officials are regularally protesting drivers for on-track racing situations where even the drivers admit to a "racing incident". Joanne Jensen was overturned three times in one month on such protests. Does that mean the system worked or that an official caused unecessary hassle for drivers putting her official nose where it shouldn&#39;t be? I think the latter.

p.s. I love a one time example almost 25 years old of something that "nearly" happened. Typical. :rolleyes:

[lateapex911]

p.s. I love a one time example almost 25 years old of something that "nearly" happened. Typical. :rolleyes:

[/b]

LOL...well I had made a comment about the hypocrisy in that statement, but then we had a power dip, and Poof! it was gone. Which is good in a way, because I know all of you will be thinking, "Not woth your time to debate the senseless"....and you&#39;re right!

I&#39;m going to go work on a car.

[BobsAuto]

[quote]


Unsupported? As a former driver and as crew, I can tell you that the person you say makes unsupported comments, can very well back up every comment he makes. He is a most observant person who has always been most fair in any situation and is very pro-driver.....if he weren&#39;t he wouldn&#39;t post here. Give it up and end this thread. Go on to some other gripe and quit taking up bandwidth to prove your little points. You&#39;ve made the points, now quit defending them and let us go on to more intelligent uses of this forum.

[jjjanos]

Simple... It&#39;s a non-racing incident. Protest all you want. This thread is about a worker critiquing a totally legal line under the rules. THat&#39;s what I find objectionable.[/b]

But that&#39;s not what you proposed. You said you wanted to remove the ability of officials to protest - period.


I also find it objectionable that officials are regularally protesting drivers for on-track racing situations where even the drivers admit to a "racing incident". Joanne Jensen was overturned three times in one month on such protests. Does that mean the system worked or that an official caused unecessary hassle for drivers putting her official nose where it shouldn&#39;t be? I think the latter. [/b]

It means the system worked. The system specifically allows such protests. It allowed them when you joined the club and it still allows them. You got a problem with that rule... you probably shouldn&#39;t have joined the club.

And here&#39;s a racing incident... standing yellow flag. Driver overdrives turn and spins causing the officials responding to scatter. Driver continues. Is that a racing incident? What other driver was involved? Shouldn&#39;t the driver who spun under a standing yellow be punished? Who&#39;s going to start the action against the driver?

Has it happend? Yep... a couple of times each year.

The "innocence" of your brother relies on some vast conspiracy of officials. Poppycock. /R/E/A/D/. it&#39;s very easy to infer from the Appeals Court summary why the the driver penalized in the Runoffs pit out incident got dinged - what he did when he came back in.

SCCA consists of the most cantankerous individuals you will ever meet and there is NO way that 10 people would cooperate long enough to "get" a driver by covering up a lie.

The protest that started this entire thread was ridiculous and the Steward who accepted it should have strongly encouraged the official making it to drop it.

[lateapex911]

That your brother cannot control is anger when he is in his racecar makes me question whether he should be driving at all. [/b]

His drive in the actual race was rather "spirited"...remember what expert commentator Jonny O&#39;Connel had to say about it on the SPEED telecast??

(I think the driver in question would likely forget the whole incident. Day to day he&#39;s a great guy with a paddock FULL of friends. Judgement was lacking for a short period, (A couple days) however.)

[StephF]

I&#39;ve known John for many years now, and he&#39;s always been a nice guy and a good racer. Too bad he had Mr.Personalities footsteps to follow in. It made it tough on him when he first came around in the late 1980&#39;s. He literally used to hide his face when people asked him if he was Matt&#39;s brother. :unsure:
I hoped he hadn&#39;t turned into an asshole too.

Matt, I said it before and I&#39;ll say it again.
You just don&#39;t get it.
And you never, ever will.

Why don&#39;t you go into politics or something? Spend all this energy on something else instead of riling up people who are here to have some fun doing what they love, whether it&#39;s driving or working. There is absolutely no reason or excuse for some of the remarks you have been making at the track, here and on the production site. Such as:
Calling a worker a "welfare bitch"
Making a reference to workers that starts with "fat-assed donut eating..."
Taunting someone online, telling them that they ought to stick a shotgun in their mouth because you have stocks in IBM and they have nothing
Saying that all the folks on the IT site were a bunch of ass kissers
The list goes on and on and on and on. Unbelievable some of the garbage spouted by you.

I skimmed through some of the posts by you on the prod site and it was disgusting. If I didn&#39;t know better, I&#39;d think it was done by a 12-year old looking for attention.

It&#39;s one thing to question finances or rules interpretation. Or to debate merits of a car, or hypothetical situations.
It&#39;s quite another to sling nasty, vindictive crap at people on a personal level, to the point of name calling and taunting.
You have no class at all Matt. And everytime you sling this garbage around, you sink even lower.

[RacerBill]

Quote from post #85 - Mattberg

"Jake you like to argue with me but the facts are that the club is no longer ours. Paupers with nothing more than a passing interest can protest us. Makes them feel good. THey can ruin a $80K investment with a single lie and get it backed up by ten people just based on the fact that I have more money than they do and the jealousy of such. Makes them feel better. I&#39;ve seen it happen first hand so don&#39;t tell me it can&#39;t happen."

I have not taken the time to read subsequent posts in response to this particular communication. Please tell me if I am mis-quoting your statement!

I spent 14 years in the American military to protect yuor right to say whatever you want. I was also protecting my right to say what I want to refute your statements. In particular, one sentence - &#39;Paupers with nothing more than a passing interest can protest us.&#39; I can find no requirement in the GCR that you can only be an official if you make less than x dollars per year, or if your net worth is below such and such. &#39;...passing interest...&#39; I still have my log from 1969, the year I graduated from college and was on my own to spend weekends as I wished and can count 29 days I worked corners from New Hampshire to Watkins Glen to Reading, PA. That&#39;s about 300 hours, not including the time and expense to drive to the tracks. Now this might be my only my humble opinion, but that is more than just a passing interest. I spent 18 YEARS as a Sound Control official (speaking of under appreciated specialties) in Central Division, maintaining sensitive electronic equipment, in order to fend off the efforts of outside interests to put an end to racing. The officials that are my closest friends are National License drivers, who give back to the sport by volunteering their time - time that they could be spending out on the track. I knew corner officials who traveled from Philadelphia to Indianapolis to volunteer their time to our sport.

One of the questions on the new corner worker evaluation forms that we used in New York Region was &#39;Would you trust this worker to work green flag with you?&#39; implying would you put your life in his hands and watch your back while you were watching out for YOU!. People with just a &#39;passing interest&#39; do not do these things!

I first became a member of SCCA in 1966 - that&#39;s forty years! I resent you saying that officials have a passing interest. My interest will &#39;pass&#39; when I pass on!

The purpose of the officials is 1) to provide a SAFE environment in which to race, and 2) enforce the rules that all participants agree to operate under, many of which are there for our SAFETY. It is their RESPONSIBILITY to inform the officials that are controling the event of unsafe situations.

&#39;backed up by ten people just based on the fact that I have more money than they do&#39;. Can you provide witnesses that will swear that these ten people got together and said &#39;let&#39;s all lie about what happened because he has more money than we do&#39;. If not, then I submit that your statement is a contention on your part and may in fact not be &#39;fact&#39;. BTW, I also own IBM stock!

I do not deny that there are occasions where officials may act in a questionable manner. Hopefully, those incidents have been delt with appropriately. I personnaly know of at least one individual who was permenantly banned from a track, and had his membership in SCCA revoked for inappropriate actions, so I know the system works. Luckily, this situation did not involve on-track safety and there were no injuries or worse.

&#39;Jake you like to argue with me but the facts are that the club is no longer ours&#39; Approximately 10% of the total club membership are licensed drivers. When you use the word &#39;ours&#39; are you referring to just drivers? Where on your membership card does it say that you have a &#39;driver membership&#39; as opposed to a &#39;official membership&#39; or a &#39;solo membership&#39;. Mine says I have a family membership and have a Crew License, a Competition License, a Pit/Grid License, and a Starter License. With the exception of the yuts (I grew up next to Brooklyn NY where that is a proper word - youngin&#39;s to those other parts of the country), there is only one membership.

OK, I have said my piece in defense of the &#39;paupers&#39; who protect us drivers.

Sorry for the hijack, don&#39;t think it was too far off the path. I also apoligize to any others who were offended by Mr. Mattbergs comments on officials and posted before me.

[RacerBill]

Mr. Mattberg Post #105

You really need to look beyond your backyard window to get the bigger picture. You made some typical rationalization comments. First, people "intending to build cars"... I wish I had a dime for every time I heard that one. Pure fiction. People who talk about it rarely get to the track. The ones who do are few and far between Second, the fixed income argument... You really shouldn&#39;t be involved in racing if that&#39;s the case. It&#39;s an expensive hobby. But the club is catering to those people and the results are what we have now which was the original point. We try and protect investments and make it possible for those old junkers to keep running competitively and nurture those who can&#39;t afford $100 for gas. Meanwhile, we push the growth element off to other organizations. I think you&#39;ve allowed your own personal situation and perhaps a few others close to you generate your overall view.

What am I going to do about it? Nothing. Look for other organizations and keep my SCCA membership for as long as the club stays afloat. I personally can&#39;t fix the problems and certainly can&#39;t fight the masses who control the club and have steered it in a terrible direction. I can bring the facts to light and see if it can generate change.

You want some changes that will keep the drivers now being lost to other organizations? Here&#39;s a couple of suggestions:

1. Leave the racing to the racers. No worker or official protests.
2. Revise voting. One vote per paid license.
3. Reduce the number of classes. Combine and consolidate.
4. Create a CoA of drivers only.
5. Create an event based CoA of 6 participating drivers selected randomly that carry final word over any protests.
6. Create policy that at least 6 active drivers sit on the BoD.
7. Reduce insurance benefits and coverage for non-drivers/workers.
8. Eliminate membership fees for workers.
9. Open up the books in Topeka.
10. Eliminate the National convention and SCCA University
11. Pay workers but not officials unless they also work a specialty.
12. Universal common internet entry system and common software for every region
13. Universal live timing and scoring
14. All safety issues to be determined by driver CoA.
15. The BoD may not meet or talk with anyone related to business operations of the club.


&#39;First, people "intending to build cars"... I wish I had a dime for every time I heard that one. Pure fiction.
People who talk about it rarely get to the track. The ones who do are few and far between &#39;

And you point is???? These folks are inferior???? I am one of those folks. Bought a car that had been a SSB and built it into an ITA. I have spent two race weekends sorting it out. Only one finish, but I have been having a blast. I&#39;ve waited 40 years to do this and for you to say that people like me should not be racing is elitist bullnuggets.


&#39;Second, the fixed income argument... You really shouldn&#39;t be involved in racing if that&#39;s the case. It&#39;s an expensive hobby. But the club is catering to those people and the results are what we have now which was the original point.&#39;

But we don&#39;t prohibit people who receive food stamps from buying lottery tickets, do we? As an extremem example, if the club was catering to the less financially endowed, we would require all race cars to be flat towed or driven to the track - NO MORE TRANSPORTERS!!!!!!


&#39;Meanwhile, we push the growth element off to other organizations&#39;

Just what is the ITR proposal?


Let&#39;s go down Mr. Mattberg&#39;s list. I know I will disagree with a couple of responses, but this is my opinion.


1. Leave the racing to the racers. No worker or official protests.
So, you are saying that as long as another driver does not see you doing something stupid that endangers the people who are enabling you to race, you have gotten away with it. How long do you think officials will continue to support you with that attitude.


2. Revise voting. One vote per paid license.
Yeah, I&#39;ll go along with that. Let&#39;s see, I paid my membership, thus I have paid for my licenses. My membership card says that I have four licenses, so I get four votes. My wife has three, so she gets three votes, and my daughter who has no votes now because she is a minor, has one license, so she now gets one vote.

3. Reduce the number of classes. Combine and consolidate.
There is already a procedure for this, and it is working. Witness GTL.

4. Create a CoA of drivers only.
From the registered drivers at an event, or from drivers who are not, and are not racing at another event, and agree to give up a weekend, and pay all their own expenses? If the COA is made up of registered drivers, how are you going to deal with conflicts of interest ie a member who must judge on an event that occurred in the race he was in. Not a simple as you suggest.

5. Create an event based CoA of 6 participating drivers selected randomly that carry final word over any protests.
Item 5 is just item 4 with more words. Same response.

6. Create policy that at least 6 active drivers sit on the BoD.
Then I insist on a BOD of at least 60 members since the licensed drivers are only 10% of the club. Let&#39;s see, how many rally BOD members, Solo, Time Trials, T&S, F&C oh, and lets have at least one BOD member for Sound Control!

7. Reduce insurance benefits and coverage for non-drivers/workers
So, if I am working a corner, and get injured pulling you from a burning car, I get less money. Even though my medical expenses would be the same for the same injuries (just to talk apples to apples). Oh, okay, so my insurance coverage is less if I go work sound control or grid, or pass out victory flags to drivers between on track sessions (cause our worker base is low this weekend). Are you a lawyer of something to come up with that idea? Whose going to keep a log of when I was working and when I was driving? Only a lawyer could come up with that administrative and litigation nightmare!
The concept of insurance is to spread the risk across a large base in order to provide the coverage at a lower cost. Now I admit that a registration official has a much lower risk of injury than a driver, but the driver pays a higher premium when he renews his license every year.


8. Eliminate membership fees for workers
So, now we have to make up for that lost revenue by driving up driver license fees and entry fees even higher, making driving more of a rich persons sport. Workers are already paying less, by the fact that they do not have to pay license fees. Eliminating all membership fees might have legal consequences as the membership is a form of contract in which the member pays a fee and receives services.

9. Open up the books in Topeka.
Already being done. Not a new idea.

10. Eliminate the National convention and SCCA University
National convention - how else are you going to exchange ideas with a membership of 60,000 that live and work thousands of miles apart?
SCCA University does not turn me on that much, although the intention is good. I would be more for it if there was a better way of getting the information out to the people.

11. Pay workers but not officials unless they also work a specialty.
Again, you are separating workers and officials. But anyway, if you pay someone, they are either employees or contractors. If they are employees, then you are going to have to factor in payroll processing costs, workers comp. and on and on. Who is going to administer this - National? the Regions? OK, there contractors. IRS says that to be a contractor, you supply your own tools. Now you are going to require that the workers sorry, contractors supply their own tools (above and beyond the personal tools they already provide)?


12. Universal common internet entry system and common software for every region
I agree in concept, but how would this be implemented? Would National dictate the software, How you you get all the regions to agree on what it would look like?


13. Universal live timing and scoring
I agree in concept, but how would this be implemented? Would National dictate the hardware and software, How you you get all the regions to agree on what the configuration would be?


14. All safety issues to be determined by driver CoA.
Here I am going to defer to the previous remards of others. The SIT and steward program is providing educated officials in this area. To rely on untrained individuals just on the basis that they are &#39;drivers&#39; would
be a big step backwards, and not in the best interest of all concerned.


15. The BoD may not meet or talk with anyone related to business operations of the club.
What &#39;business operations&#39; SCCA Enterprises, Pro Racing? Enterprises may not be much of an issue in the near future. Pro Racing? You want to spin them off too? If not,then someone has to oversee the operations.

and your added point: Add regional classes to the participation formula for the Runoffs 24 classes. At our club&#39;s showcase event I&#39;d rather see a good IT battle than 12 CSRs with two of them lapping the field.

While I don&#39;t like to see the types of race you describe, one has to look at the potential long term effects of having IT go National. Not sure if I like that. But if a good proposal were made, I would listen to it.

Anyway, those are my comments. I am impressed that at least these were all positive ideas, and got me to think about important issues.

[Mattberg]

&#39;First, people "intending to build cars"... I wish I had a dime for every time I heard that one. Pure fiction.
People who talk about it rarely get to the track. The ones who do are few and far between &#39;

And you point is???? These folks are inferior???? I am one of those folks. Bought a car that had been a SSB and built it into an ITA. I have spent two race weekends sorting it out. Only one finish, but I have been having a blast. I&#39;ve waited 40 years to do this and for you to say that people like me should not be racing is elitist bullnuggets.

Did I say inferior? My point was that we build too much policy around longshots. If they build one great but to put the dependence and/or survival of a class on the fact that someone says there are potentially cars being built? Like I said I&#39;ve heard it many times and seen the results. It&#39;s the most common response in extending policy for something that is most likely dying. The focus should not be there. Build your car that&#39;s great. I&#39;m not saying to not allow you. I&#39;m just saying let&#39;s not bet the farm on the belief that "they will build them" sooner or later because most, unlike you, won&#39;t.



&#39;Second, the fixed income argument... You really shouldn&#39;t be involved in racing if that&#39;s the case. It&#39;s an expensive hobby. But the club is catering to those people and the results are what we have now which was the original point.&#39;

But we don&#39;t prohibit people who receive food stamps from buying lottery tickets, do we? As an extremem example, if the club was catering to the less financially endowed, we would require all race cars to be flat towed or driven to the track - NO MORE TRANSPORTERS!!!!!!

Who&#39;s talking about prohibiting anything or anybody from doing anything. Again I&#39;m just saying that building policy around a certain demographic or bringing fixed income into the equation doesn&#39;t make sense. There&#39;s also a dangerous ledge when policy caters to the less fortunate where you lose the more fortunate. THose people are needed and bring steady and readily disposable dollars to the club. It&#39;s sad to me when I hear of a gung ho racer who says he can&#39;t afford this race or that race. I&#39;ve let guys drive one of my cars and I&#39;ve paid an entry or two in my time for a couple friends who were in that position. But to lose the regulars who drive full schedules and have no budget concerns like that because policy has limited their recreation?... not a good idea.



&#39;Meanwhile, we push the growth element off to other organizations&#39;

Just what is the ITR proposal?

A proposal and nothing more. Tell me how it keeps people upset with officiating from leaving the club or helps those who want to race Nationals in prod in a car less than thirty years old?



Let&#39;s go down Mr. Mattberg&#39;s list. I know I will disagree with a couple of responses, but this is my opinion.

1. Leave the racing to the racers. No worker or official protests.

So, you are saying that as long as another driver does not see you doing something stupid that endangers the people who are enabling you to race, you have gotten away with it. How long do you think officials will continue to support you with that attitude.

Enabling me to race? That&#39;s a stretch. If every worker and official decided not to go to a race, the racers would still race. I&#39;ve seen it happen. Regardless, I am not saying a driver should be able to get away with doing something stupid. I&#39;m saying that officials and workers should not be judging blame in racing incidents if the drivers see no foul. But I&#39;m seeing it almost every race. It&#39;s like third man in on a hockey fight. But if there&#39;s no fight, they create one.



2. Revise voting. One vote per paid license.

Yeah, I&#39;ll go along with that. Let&#39;s see, I paid my membership, thus I have paid for my licenses. My membership card says that I have four licenses, so I get four votes. My wife has three, so she gets three votes, and my daughter who has no votes now because she is a minor, has one license, so she now gets one vote.

The idea was to curb multiple voting by a single person through family memberships. Should a dog or a three year old be voting. Yes, I know of someone who has a dog on their family membership. Does a person with four kids and a wife deserve six votes versus my one?



3. Reduce the number of classes. Combine and consolidate.

There is already a procedure for this, and it is working. Witness GTL.

THere is no procedure I know of. Please let me know where I can find such. As far as I know, the guys in the classes got together and worked it out on their own. But we have other classes that are dying yet the participants are reluctant to combine or consolidate because it provides an easy road to the Runoffs. Unfortunately it takes up class space and puts us at a disadvantage in bringing in new cars, new classes and new blood.



4. Create a CoA of drivers only.

From the registered drivers at an event, or from drivers who are not, and are not racing at another event, and agree to give up a weekend, and pay all their own expenses? If the COA is made up of registered drivers, how are you going to deal with conflicts of interest ie a member who must judge on an event that occurred in the race he was in. Not a simple as you suggest.

Licensed ACTIVE drivers. Maybe 6 picked out of a hat or assigned by the BoD? Sort of like a Supreme Court. Maybe an alternative or two to take care of conflict of interest concerns. And what are they giving up. If being on the COA takes that much time then yes we need to fix the protest rules. Outside of the protests from officials there are very few as I read Fastrack.



5. Create an event based CoA of 6 participating drivers selected randomly that carry final word over any protests.

Same concept but drivers from the event. Appeals go to the regular CoA.



6. Create policy that at least 6 active drivers sit on the BoD.

Then I insist on a BOD of at least 60 members since the licensed drivers are only 10% of the club. Let&#39;s see, how many rally BOD members, Solo, Time Trials, T&S, F&C oh, and lets have at least one BOD member for Sound Control!

I disagree. Being the minority population but the majority bread winners is a big reason for some of the problems. Without road racing there is no club. Period. All of the others are basically cost centers and to dicipher the Topeka books (another big problem) I&#39;m sure this would be proven true. How the club can assign half a million plus in expenses to administration of licensing for just road racers is just silly. That&#39;s more than the membership. Just ain&#39;t so. But the expenses are spread to raod racing to protect those other areas and the members who enjoy them. Unfortunately there are no safeguards to stop that from happeneing except for having more road racers in a position of oversight.



7. Reduce insurance benefits and coverage for non-drivers/workers

So, if I am working a corner, and get injured pulling you from a burning car, I get less money. Even though my medical expenses would be the same for the same injuries (just to talk apples to apples). Oh, okay, so my insurance coverage is less if I go work sound control or grid, or pass out victory flags to drivers between on track sessions (cause our worker base is low this weekend). Are you a lawyer of something to come up with that idea? Whose going to keep a log of when I was working and when I was driving? Only a lawyer could come up with that administrative and litigation nightmare!

The concept of insurance is to spread the risk across a large base in order to provide the coverage at a lower cost. Now I admit that a registration official has a much lower risk of injury than a driver, but the driver pays a higher premium when he renews his license every year.

You didn&#39;t read what I wrote. I said non-workers/drivers/officials. But over insuring for non-participants should be examined. We are over insured in a lot of areas as I see it. It&#39;s only an invitation to get sued. If there weren&#39;t any insurance no lawyer inthe world would touch it. What are they going to get? The $32,000 in non-trust cash? Our tapped out $600K letter of credit? Furthermore I&#39;d love to see a program that allows people to waive the insurance. Maybe that would get us a price break. I have to pay an additional premium for coverage on three separate policies (life, medical and keyman) just because of racing. I&#39;ve got to pay it regardless of other coverage. I&#39;ll waive it if it will help. The idea is to reduce the coverage to help control entry costs.



8. Eliminate membership fees for workers

So, now we have to make up for that lost revenue by driving up driver license fees and entry fees even higher, making driving more of a rich persons sport. Workers are already paying less, by the fact that they do not have to pay license fees. Eliminating all membership fees might have legal consequences as the membership is a form of contract in which the member pays a fee and receives services.

I&#39;ll pay extra. So will a lot of others. Another reason not to cater to those in questionable financial condition. I don&#39;t think we should be looking to workers for revenue. It&#39;s just wrong. And trust me, read the financials. We don&#39;t make a whole lot on memberships given the cost and support of those 50,000 people. Sportscar alone is a huge expense that wipes out a big chunk.



9. Open up the books in Topeka.

Already being done. Not a new idea.

No it hasn&#39;t been done. They create generic balance sheets that no person could ever decipher. I&#39;m talking about details but they say that information is confidential.



10. Eliminate the National convention and SCCA University

National convention - how else are you going to exchange ideas with a membership of 60,000 that live and work thousands of miles apart? SCCA University does not turn me on that much, although the intention is good. I would be more for it if there was a better way of getting the information out to the people.

Exchange ideas? C&#39;mon. It&#39;s a party for officials. OK, so maybe some are really there for purpose. Have it at the Runoffs. Maybe we&#39;d get more spectators. It&#39;s a HUGE waste of cash, effort and administration as a separate event.



11. Pay workers but not officials unless they also work a specialty.

Again, you are separating workers and officials. But anyway, if you pay someone, they are either employees or contractors. If they are employees, then you are going to have to factor in payroll processing costs, workers comp. and on and on. Who is going to administer this - National? the Regions? OK, there contractors. IRS says that to be a contractor, you supply your own tools. Now you are going to require that the workers sorry, contractors supply their own tools (above and beyond the personal tools they already provide)?

Sure there will be details. I guess I&#39;ll pay the extra. THe return will be worth it.



12. Universal common internet entry system and common software for every region

I agree in concept, but how would this be implemented? Would National dictate the software, How you you get all the regions to agree on what it would look like?

If we had it, it&#39;s usable and drivers were happy it wouldn&#39;t matter. It&#39;s an easy deal. If the regions don&#39;t accept it they don&#39;t get sanction numbers. Tough love baby.



13. Universal live timing and scoring

I agree in concept, but how would this be implemented? Would National dictate the hardware and software, How you you get all the regions to agree on what the configuration would be?

These systems are not rocket science. Develop a system and implement it. Heck, a worker from Iowa could work a race in New York or Monterey. It&#39;s a no-brainer. Unfortunately you have too many egos on the regional level who think they have a better idea. Funny, because I don&#39;t know of any regions that have decent systems that are anywhere near what they should be.



14. All safety issues to be determined by driver CoA.

Here I am going to defer to the previous remards of others. The SIT and steward program is providing educated officials in this area. To rely on untrained individuals just on the basis that they are &#39;drivers&#39; would
be a big step backwards, and not in the best interest of all concerned.

Instead we&#39;ll depend on the untrained individuals who aren&#39;t drivers? THe CoA of drivers can be educated and informed every bit as well as the non-drivers. Two year belts would never have been approved by drivers. It&#39;s just too simple. A group of officials got wined and dined by SFI and the drivers paid the bill. Either that or they played the insurance card and that might even represent a crime. I might check into that.



15. The BoD may not meet or talk with anyone related to business operations of the club.

What &#39;business operations&#39; SCCA Enterprises, Pro Racing? Enterprises may not be much of an issue in the near future. Pro Racing? You want to spin them off too? If not,then someone has to oversee the operations.

There is a difference between overseeing operations and corporate governance to "running the operation" which our BoD has been doing over the years. They are not qualified and legally bound not to. They are to oversee Topeka&#39;s implementation and make decisions based on results of their performance and nothing more. That&#39;s why we just paid Fran Am a big pile of dough.



and your added point: Add regional classes to the participation formula for the Runoffs 24 classes. At our club&#39;s showcase event I&#39;d rather see a good IT battle than 12 CSRs with two of them lapping the field.

While I don&#39;t like to see the types of race you describe, one has to look at the potential long term effects of having IT go National. Not sure if I like that. But if a good proposal were made, I would listen to it.

I didn&#39;t say anything about going National. Just take the numbers from all racing and take the top 24. If ITS and ITA have better numbers than HP, guess who goes? Just a better product for the fan, worker, official, driver and spectator.



Anyway, those are my comments. I am impressed that at least these were all positive ideas, and got me to think about important issues.

[ulfelder]

I ignored this thread for weeks because I couldn&#39;t see what Tim K&#39;s qualifying had to do with me. But this morning, having noted the astonishing number of posts, curiosity forced me to check it out, and so I say ...

Bravo! :happy204: Hilarious stuff. Don&#39;t know who made up this Mattberg, but he&#39;s the funniest character since Kramer.

Steve U
05 ITS
Flatout Motorsports

[jjjanos]

Regardless, I am not saying a driver should be able to get away with doing something stupid. I&#39;m saying that officials and workers should not be judging blame in racing incidents if the drivers see no foul. But I&#39;m seeing it almost every race. It&#39;s like third man in on a hockey fight. But if there&#39;s no fight, they create one. [/b]

Learn the rules of your club. Other than the SoM, the volunteer officials - I am unaware of any workers - do not judge blame in any racing incident. We give witness statements that are submitted to the SoMs. An official might be asked his opinion based on his experience, but it is the SoMs that determine the value of that opinion.

The Tim K LRP protest is an oddball event and I will agree that the protest was ridiculous - but the system worked.

Your proposal, however, is an incredible overreaction to an extremly rare occurance that eliminates those instances when a protest lodged by an official is justified.

Case in point - A national at Summit. Driver of fast formula car has about one-half lap lead over second place. He is trying to set the lap record. He goes through turn 10, where a waving yellow is being displayed for a car into the pit wall and the attending EVs - latter on course. Driver does not lift, darts to the right to go around a backmarker and causes the EV people to scatter.

The overtaken driver didn&#39;t see a foul - he didn&#39;t lose a position. The second place driver didn&#39;t even know about the pass. Sooooo should this driver get off without any punishment? The ONLY people in position to lodge a protest are the officials who witnessed the pass.

This driver just made a STUPID decision that endangered people responding to a car into a wall and in Matt&#39;s world nothing happens.

Now, some would argue that the Stewards should be licensed or ex-drivers. Great. Excellent. Find me enough of these who are willing to do the job.

Worse yet, such a rule would prevent on the most respected, knowledgable, restrained and fair members of the club from serving as either a steward or member of the Court of Appeals because, as far as I know, she never raced. I&#39;d rather have SR in the chair or as an SoM than all of the Runoffs champs in the world.


These systems are not rocket science. Develop a system and implement it. Heck, a worker from Iowa could work a race in New York or Monterey.[/b]

Hmmmm.... they already can.

[RKramden]

I&#39;d rather have SR in the chair or as an SoM than all of the Runoffs champs in the world.
[/b]jj,

A LOT of people feel the same about her.

Back when she was the C/S at the runoffs I worked for her as the protest steward, basically a full time job tracking all the protests, fines, SoM decisions, and CoA decisions. I watched her be level headed and very, very fair when a communications issue between tech (they said X, meant to say X&#39;) and a driver (who did X) got tech all bent out of shape. Wanted the driver tossed. Her listening to the driver and then deciding what to do was pleasent to watch. And, Boris got to keep his win as well.

She gave me a nice present as a thank you (a Swiss Army pocket knife) that I still carry.

I&#39;ve had to talk a few matters over with her from time to time and have always known that the fair and proper thing would be done. That has never been a question.

Out of all the stewards and any other person I have ever met in SCCA, I have more respect for her than anyone else, and as a rule I really don&#39;t like stewards all that much.

D

[Mattberg]

These systems are not rocket science. Develop a system and implement it. Heck, a worker from Iowa could work a race in New York or Monterey.


"Hmmmm.... they already can."

What dream world are you living in? We had half of our times at the Homestead National lost and waited a more than a week for final results with workers familiar with the system. Mostly because a T&S official didn&#39;t know what they were doing and refused help from a worker from a different specialty who knew what was wrong. Then claimed, "drivers are never happy" and laughed. I was there and heard it FIRST HAND. A whole room of officials laughed along. That is pitiful.

Why were there fifteen T&S people in the tower? THey say we need to keep the manual system in place for just such an occurrence. What were they doing that weekend? PLEASE TELL ME. EXPLAIN THAT TO ME. From what I saw of the nice buffet they had layed out there I can pretty much surmise...

[jjjanos]

Should I take the lack of a rebutal for the inane "limit who may protest" proposal as a sign that you recognize its lack of merit?




What dream world are you living in? We had half of our times at the Homestead National lost and waited a more than a week for final results with workers familiar with the system. Mostly because a T&S official didn&#39;t know what they were doing and refused help from a worker from a different specialty who knew what was wrong. Then claimed, "drivers are never happy" and laughed. I was there and heard it FIRST HAND. A whole room of officials laughed along. That is pitiful.

Why were there fifteen T&S people in the tower? THey say we need to keep the manual system in place for just such an occurrence. What were they doing that weekend? PLEASE TELL ME. EXPLAIN THAT TO ME. From what I saw of the nice buffet they had layed out there I can pretty much surmise...
[/b]

Boy, bad things just seem to happen to you everywhere you go. I&#39;m vacillating between whether it is a case of karma payback or indications of BPD.

1. Some Regions are better than others in terms of competency and treatment of entrants. It is well known which are good and which are bad and wise drivers avoid those Regions that are in need of improvement.

2. The T&S person didn&#39;t know their own system... what makes you think they would know how to operate a universal system? Nor would a universal system have prevented a T&S official from refusing the help of someone in a different specialty.

3. Gauging your attitude, I believe the statement made by the official to be correct.

4. What were they doing? Perhaps dealing with chowderheads who immediately copped an attitude because everything was going right in the world?

You are correct. We need a standard T&S system and online entry system for the entire club. I suggest we finance the purchase of all of this new equipment and the training of the officials by dramatically increasing the cost of obtaining a National driving license because Regions that already have invested in systems that work fine should not be forced to pay for new equipment simply to satisfy out of region drivers. In fact, I would recommend that the increased fee be permanent and used to finance a per diem to send insular officials to out-of-region tracks so that they gain a better understanding of how other people do it.

Yep.... a $200 or more fee for a national license should cover it.

[Knestis]

I think this point was made back on p. 2

http://www.affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/Train_20wreck_207_20smash_20050215_small1.jpg

K

[RacerBill]

I want to protest! I don&#39;t see any numbers or class designations on those vehicles!!!!!!!!

[itracer]

I want to protest! I don&#39;t see any numbers or class designations on those vehicles!!!!!!!!
[/b]

If you are a worker and not a driver in that event you can&#39;t protest! -- Per Mattberg :P

[BobsAuto]

Are there any drivers on the Stewards Committee? If not, forget the protest!