I'll be first to post. Mayhem in ITA at NHIS [Archive]

biovic

05-29-2006, 08:01 PM

Ok, I’ll be the first to post on the ITA race on Saturday at NHIS. I think most of us have just tried to relax on this Memorial Day Monday, and not write on this board to start the comments flying. But I have a few minutes and have a story.
Minding my own business starting 3rd on Saturday, driving down the front straight, before the first corner, cars began bouncing off each other in a domino affect, tagging me (of course others) cars spinning all over the track, probably 7 cars involved, a few out for the race. I kept driving, although I knew my car was in tough shape, just wanted to finish the race. I was in 6th when on the last lap my front tire blew in turn 10 and had to limp the car back in. After surveying the damage to my Teg, out for the rest of the weekend and probably for the next couple months, to get my car back on track if even possible. Damaged rims and tires alone are $1000, then there’s the frame straightening, and undenting EVERY panel on the car (except the rear bumper and the driver side mirror).
So enough about me.
First off, in my 5 years of racing, and probably 45 or so races (I know it’s much less than many of you), I have never, I repeat NEVER, been in a race, seen or even heard of such mayhem BEFORE the first corner of NHIS or ANY racetrack. This type of incident which involved 2 fairly new drivers to NHIS and our regional ITA club should have never happened. The moves by the drivers to try to pass and race along the pit wall by the green VW and blue Nissan were stupid, futile for the track and caused serious damage to not only cars, driver injury (at least one trip to the hospital) and potential for more serious (especially going 80-90mph, not like the typical 30 mph in turn 3), and in my view, a very bad feeling by all drivers and lost camaraderie in our group.
That’s all for now. Video to come soon.

Victor Gangi
03 ITA

almracing

05-29-2006, 09:15 PM

What he said times 10!

Tkczecheredflag

05-29-2006, 09:43 PM

Okay my turn. I've been racing in ITA/ITC (ITA Civic Si and ITC Honda CRX) since 1996. Let me qualify myself first. I am human, I can, do and have made mistakes. Here is an example of some of my mistakes (once in 1995 in EMRA got my nose in a VW and spun him out on a low speed turn) and a couple of other errors in judgement (an unintentional bump, tire to metal rubs, and off course excerusions). Never have I expereinced the carnage that these newbies to ITA have caused with their racecars.

I've seen some video from other drivers concerning the wreck, I have seen my video and all I can say is that both drivers made a very low percentage (read that as DUMB) moves, that even if the passes were completed would only have taken out more cars, as they would have no place to go after the pass in T-1. I will offer what I beleive happened in a moment.

I was sixth on the grid behind Victor and was turned sideways by the Sentra (JOE!) and helped take out five other innocent bystanders (Victor G.Anthony R, Andy B. Brian M, Eric S), as I was pointed sideways on the front straight. In the process I lost the nose onf my car both fenders, had the drivers door T-Boned by the Green VW (ERIC!), need a radiator support, headlights, a couple of new tires, and need to straighten a kink in my tub a bit, and new bumper covers. Brings on a whole new meaning to "What does $260.00 get you these days at NHIS?"

I also made a couple of laps before I got meatballed for having the nose of my car dragging under the car and finished 22nd. This was supposed a fun weekend and it turned out to be a lot work to make it all worthwhile later and I suspect cost a few grand in repairs. This group of racers are good drivers. None of them desreved these dissappointment, frustration and needless expense and hospital visits. I offer to these two new guys, run with us, learn what we do. I can door handle to door handle with almost all of these drivers and do it with confidence, not fearing a wreck - Racing doesn't need to be a contact sport - We shouldn't even joke about it.

My hope is that the SCCA Officials make note of this incident in the "Red BooK" and make it part of their "Permeant Record".

Here's my take. First I thought after the pace car pulled off we picked up the pace we're pacing too fast which opened up the rear of the field a bit allowing them to get a run. Maybe a wave off would have helped but that wasn't the problem. Joe (Sentra) 10th on the grid, got a good run/start as did Eric (VW). I got a decent start and managed to get next to Victor heading into T-1, plenty of room for both of us. Joe drove his car up next to the pit wall and tried to pass me and got pinched by Eric, also was passing on the pit wall side. Are you counting cars? We are at least 5 maybe 6 wide now. Eric claims he didn't hit Joe, regardless there was no room to go anywhere down there this a low percentage Dumb move. In the video of one of teh other drivers that I beleive will be posted, you will see what appears to be tire rub between the Sebtra ans the VW, but I was told it was "speed dri" not tire. The more I think about it, I believe Joe lost traction in the "speedi dri", got sucked in to the wall and which launched across my nose spinning me sideways. All this before T-1.

So why do I say the move was Dumb aside form the obvious? Joe hasn't raced here for years. otherwise he would have known better. Eric doesn't know the other ITA drivers and whether he hit Joe or not, did not give Joe any room to work and may have had tire to tire rub too - We will never know - Dumb and Dumber. I beleive Joe would have wrecked us anyway if my "speedi dri" theory holds true, but still beleive at eh end of teh straight he would have come across the whole field.

I have to say thank you to Bob Smart (Hoosier Tire), who help piece me together, Robert Willis who lent me the nose of his disabled TEG, and my CPM Motorsports Team ,Ken Schielke, Jerry and Carol Miller for their support and help. These guys were incredible and this team made it possible to pull off a couple of third place finishes coming from the 22nd spot on Sunday after hours of work on Saturday after the wreck. I will public say I apoloigize to the guys I got a piece of, even though they all know I was along for the ride.

You see that's the point. Admit your wrongs, make amends. Don't defend your position - You were both wrong, post it. Public scrutiny is the one way I know to keep people on the up and up. Come and see my bumper. It is there I have added "THANKS JOE !!! THANKS ERIC!!! in magic marker - I plan to keep it there for a while as a reminder of what we are NOT trying to do. My only hope is that by doing so I have not insulted the Corner Workers. Thanks CORNER WORKERS, too - For Real!!!

Jeremy Billiel

05-31-2006, 07:01 PM

I heard that NHIS was great weekend, but I am sad to see so much carnage in the ITA race. I do not want to add any comments as I was not there, but if anyone has video I would like to see it. Tim I hope to see the Integra out there again and good luck getting it back together. If you need any special Integra knowledge feel free to shoot me an email or give me a buzz.

Congratulations to Greg Amy for the wins! :happy204: :happy204:

Greg Amy

05-31-2006, 08:00 PM

I'm expecting this to turn into a major brawl. In fact, I think it's very good that we had a few days to all think about last weekend, and possibly even cool off (hopefully, NOT rev up). I personally can offer ZERO unique insight or hindsight to the matter, simply because I didn't personally witness a damned thing. Further, I cannot be objective on the matter, simply because I have friends on every side of this fence.

I do ask for one thing: thought before digging out the poison pen. Think before you post. I am personally aware of at least three useful videos: from inside Joe DiMinno's car, from inside Noam Levine's car (who was immediately trailing Joe), and inside Victor's car. BEFORE EVERYONE STARTS GOING OFF HALF-COCKED, let's all look at the videos and play our best armchair quarterbacking after looking at them.

I don't know that Noam or Victor have posted theirs anywhere, but I do know that Joe has posted his video in the following locations:

A partial slow-motion version:
http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/showphoto...500/ppuser/2081 (http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/2761/cat/500/ppuser/2081)

A full-speed longer version, 34MB: http://spooled.sr20forum.com/smokinjoe/joe-nhis06.mpg

(the latter one required I download a viewer from http://www.videolan.org/vlc/download-windows.html to view it)

By the way, Tim, I don't think I paced the field too fast as you described. Per my data aquisition, the pace car had us between 29.5 and 30.5 mph through NASCAR 3 and 4 (second gear and about ~3700 RPM for me). I maintained that speed as the pace car sped away and dove into pit lane. Once it was clear of the track I slowly picked up the speed and held the field at 46 mph (second gear and ~5760 RPM for me - as is my prerogative) until the green flag was dropped (even when Brandon got snookered into jumping the start in Race 3). That is hardly what I would call fast. I did the same exact thing all three races... - GA

Andy Bettencourt

05-31-2006, 08:38 PM

Well I am not going to take as hard of a line as the guys that got collected (go figure). I am the last car through in the slow-mo video you see (dark green Miata with day-glo decals) and consider myself to be rediculously lucky. It was literally 'the big one'.

I started 6th and came through with nobody behind me...freaky really.

There HAD to have been 7 wide. On the right side of the track was Mushnick - Bettencourt - Lawton and on the left was DiMinno - Shiflet - Klavna and in the very middle was Gangi. You can see these 4 from Joe's slo-mo. I was in the middle of the other 3.

The bottom line? When you put yourself against a wall with cars near you, you have left zero room for mistakes. Have I done it? Yup. Was I lucky? Yup. Have I backed out when I thought it was too risky? You bet.

It happened on both sides of the track (Brett Bogart and Jeff Lawton both took me on the outside wall while my torqless wonder clawed for speed) with Gangi in the middle. Shit happened and the metal flew. It sucked.

I watch the races and, although I am new to the class, I already know the guys to be careful around. It's my job to know.

I am glad everyone is ok. Oh ya, I do not belive for 1 second that speedie-dry caused the accident.

AB

Bill Miller

05-31-2006, 08:49 PM

Greg,

You have to be a member to see the first one, and I couldn't get the second one to work.

almracing

05-31-2006, 08:54 PM

Wow… that was a crazy weekend. To say the start on Saturday was pathetic is an understatement. So far my season has been 6 minutes and 15 seconds. (April race, Memorial Day race)

From my perspective, I saw Tim’s bright red car sliding across the front on the pack, and the blue Nissan bouncing off cars and the wall to my left. As I slowed, a hole opened up as the Nissan slid left and Tim slid right. I thought I had it made, until a big slam on my right and another on my left. Turns out it was Tim coming off the wall from the right… which sent me into the Nissan on my left. That quick right-left hit gave my melon a good shake so I went to medical where they found tenderness in my upper neck. (I was wearing a HANS) That got me a free ride to the hospital where only strain/bruising of the neck was found.

I want to thank a bunch of people who helped out during the afternoon. First would have to be Maryanne Rhodes (Safety Steward) who knew I needed to go to medical before I did. Brian Mushnick for telling me the walk to medical was free; the ladies with Speedway Ambulance who let me understand the seriousness of my sore neck; my paddock partners Victor Gangi and Noam Levine, for getting my trailer and gear in order. My crew guy Bud who drove all around to get clothes and items to me at the hotel.

From my wife’s point of view, a big thanks to Fred White. He was at turn three with a radio connected to race control and was able to let Lisa know that I drove in and was walking around. She was a rock watching me get strapped to a backboard and carrying a cranky 3-year old around the hospital.

And thanks to all of the competitors and officials who caught up with me to see if I was ok. It is comforting to both my family and I that others are looking out for me, even if I don’t.

This may sound like an Oscar acceptance speech, but I would be remiss if I did not take a moment to let people know that they are appreciated.

lateapex911

05-31-2006, 08:59 PM

I know what it's like to be the meat of a multicar sandwich....as a matter of fact, my car is still twisted, which is why I missed this one! (mine happened during qualifying at the Glen, but it was only 4 wide)

But lets see some vids...if they can be posted someplace that doesn't need special registration or downloads, all the better. It sounds as though Noam's is most illuminating...

Greg Amy

05-31-2006, 09:06 PM

biovic

05-31-2006, 09:08 PM

Here is the long-awaited in-car video from Noam Levine. (I haven't downloaded mine yet, but there's not too much to see except the pit wall and a blur from my camera trying to autofocus.)

http://victorgangi.com/media/Memorial_Day_Race_1_crash.wmv

And here is a picture of my car (didn't bother to take a picture of the other side, it looks similar.) I get the auto body assessment tommorow night. Wish me luck.

http://victorgangi.com/sitebuilder/images/DSCN2210-488x361.jpg

almracing

05-31-2006, 09:35 PM

I have to agree with Tim that I thought the start was fast.

In no way do I think it caused the incident, but I think it allowed the field to break apart and scatter much quicker than usual.

2006 GCR Section 7.5-4
"Once the pace car pulls off for the start, the pole car shall maintain the speed of the pace car just prior to pulling off."

Doing the math: 30 mph to 46 mph = 53% increase in speed.

biovic

05-31-2006, 10:03 PM

I originally thought the start was very fast, up until now... After reviewing my video tonight, and since I was right behind Greg, it wasn't as fast as it 'seemed'. I'll explain.
When the green flag dropped I was just about pegged in 2nd gear, so it was about 50 mph (Greg's speedo read 46, 50 is my estimate, as I can't read my tach speedo that close in the video).
However, what I did notice was we were all going along at about 30 or so through NASCAR turn 3, then the pace car pulled off and Greg sped up through NASCAR turn 4, but then slowed down again (I had to check up and go off the throttle). So if the first couple rows sped up at that point, the rest of the field would have been accelerating through NASCAR turns 3 and 4 to line up close and catch the car directly in front of them. Of course by then the green flag was out for them so it was a fast start for them. In conclusion, it would appear to most of the field that it was a fast start, although it wasn't for us at the front (who eventually ended up at the back). <_<

Victor

16v

05-31-2006, 10:05 PM

That was one big rediculous mess.

http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/nh2/images/DSC_1612.jpg

http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/nh2/images/DSC_1614.jpg

http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/nh2/images/DSC_1617.jpg

http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/nh2/images/DSC_1643.jpg

http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/nh2/images/DSC_1703.jpg

Good to hear you're doing ok Anthony. I still can't believe Tim K got his car back together, that was magic

Tkczecheredflag

05-31-2006, 10:56 PM

http://www.kakashiracing.com/temp/NHIS_CRASH_SLOW_MO.wmv Please right-click and "Save As". If this gets a lot of hits it'll get pulled. If someone else can host it, send me the link and I'll edit this post.
Download that player I linked to for the second one.
[/b]

It think the video pretty much supports the Dumb and Dumber comment - or am I missing something? What were they (JOE! and ERIC!) going to do when they got to the end of the straight away - Fly away???? Call it what you want (inexperience, poor jugment, low percentage move) I'm sticking with Dumb and Dumber - I paid for the privledge. Hey no hard feelings, really - "That's racing" right (I think Jim Carrey and Jeff Daniels coined that phrase)? Please allow to laugh a little - If you don't I'll cry and my neck is still killing me.

Greg - My comment about the start of the race was spot on for acceleration supported by the video, and I believe Anthony's comment of 53% is worthy of consideration.- Not blaming you for anything as orignally stated in my previous post. I also thought that race 3 should have been waved off too - Brandon was three car lengths ahead of you at the green - Again worthy of consideration not pointing fingures (they hurt too).

What is obvious from this video is that Joe had plenty of warning to feather the gas and Eric didn't give him any room to work, on a part of the track that is used for nothing but collecting wrecked cars. Has anyone actually raced against pit wall from this group? Racing down there makes about as much sense as going through T-1 and T-2 at speed, in the marbles, against the wall - It's a wreck waiting to happen. PLEASE!

I am only offering my humble opinion - Not tryng to make any enemies as I have too many friends in "A", as mentioned, I've been racing with many of them since '95. Truth be told who's been racing in "ITA/ITC" in NER longer than me, that was racing at NHIS this weekend? That alone should allow the the privledge to spout off a bit, no??

Keep in mind no one filed a formal inquiry or protest (funny how amnesia works). As far a I know, no one got in an officials face a screamed for action, right? This forum is our opportunity to view video and discuss - If discussion a "brawl" then the injuries from the wreck are much worse than I orignally thought and I really do need my head examined.

The Dilaudid is kicking in for the pain - I gotta go to bed.

cpm motorsports

05-31-2006, 11:22 PM

I know that I should probably leave this for the drivers to discuss, but as Tim's sponsor and as a witness to this incident, I felt I needed to reply to Greg's initial post.
A lot of time, effort and money goes into these race weekends. We do it for fun, for the thrill and for the "comraderie". But when all that is put in jeopardy by a bad judgement call it is hard to stay calm, cool and collected.
Congratulations to you Greg, for your win, but for those of us who will need to spend days and dollars dealing with someone else's mistake, I think a little passion is justified.

Ed Funk

06-01-2006, 05:51 AM

Just to add fuel to an already raging fire, heard it from the horse's mouth, the starter was given strict instructions to not wave off anything in the interest of the schedule! May not have made a difference in your race, but there were some very badly bunched starting fields!

JLawton

06-01-2006, 06:08 AM

OK, my turn............ Since I was the last one collected in the mess...... I managed to get a good run and was headed up the outside wall and got collected by Brian. I was lucky enough to be able to get the car back together and aligned although I had a bent sub frame and two blown shocks (thnk god for plastic body parts!!)......... It sucked for everyone involved..........

Anthony, glad you're OK. I hadn't even realized anyone got hurt!! Of course, I spent the rest of the weekend under my car so I was a little out of it.....

Tim gets the "rising from the ashes award"!! :OLA: And the best sense of humor!!

In my opinion:
Joe's attempt was risky but if I saw that much open track and was coming like a freight train, even I would have tried it (and I have no balls!!) He would have made it if Eric realized he was there........ Speedy dry my a$$.

Eric looked like he came out of it OK, but he got off the brakes and looks like he was back on the gas when he plowed into Tim. I think that was one hit that could have been avoided.

As far as the start in the last race?? I think that was a great move by Brandon!! Here is is sitting next to the guy who just broke the track record, having a snow balls chance in hell of wining the race, why not go for it!! The worst they could do is wave off the start!! :lol:

I too will be missing the next couple of races. Unfortunately my reapirs are going to be a little more difficult than I had anticipated.. :mad1:

I don't hold anyone responsible. I don't think any protest would have been upheld. That's racing..........

Again, just one person's opinion...........

almracing

06-01-2006, 07:03 AM

Current Count of Cars Wrecked = 8

I know that we cannot point to any one item that caused the carnage this weekend. Like with many big accidents, there was a multitude of things that went wrong.

I look forward to racing with everyone again this season and share in the after party beers. Just not sure when that will be.

dazzlesa

06-01-2006, 07:03 AM

in my oppinion joe should have backed out.the vw was in front and he was coming to the left which left no room for joe.yeah he had a run but as you can see by the results, the risk was not worth it.the start did not help but we all have gas pedals and brake pedals to control our cars.not the starts fault.
i will expand that spec miata has this problem. a guy in front looses momentum. the 2 cars behind him get a run. they all stick it into the next corner and someone gets the short end of the stick.that is why i left SM. no give or take. rick

Tkczecheredflag

06-01-2006, 07:49 AM

[quote]

Tim gets the "rising from the ashes award"!! :OLA: And the best sense of humor!!

Jeff - Thank God someone found the "tongue and check" is was hoping for - I'm here all week folks. If we can't be serious at the track let's not try to get all serious now.
Kudos to my team (Carol, Jerry, Ken), Robert Willis, and Bob Smart (Hoosier Tire) for all their help putting Humpty Dumpty back togehter - My heroes.

In my opinion:
Joe's attempt was risky but if I saw that much open track and was coming like a freight train, even I would have tried it (and I have no balls!!) He would have made it if Eric realized he was there........ Speedy dry my a$$.

So much for my Speed Dri theory - The tape has proven me wrong. But again, what were they going to do fly away - Anyone who runs NHIS knows there's no place to go down there heading into T1

Eric looked like he came out of it OK, but he got off the brakes and looks like he was back on the gas when he plowed into Tim. I think that was one hit that could have been avoided.

That hit was the hit (T-Bone) that has me on the Dilaudid - Eric this stuff is great!

ner88

06-01-2006, 08:56 AM

:D Glad I run Spec Miata

Andy Bettencourt

06-01-2006, 09:05 AM

As far as the start in the last race?? I think that was a great move by Brandon!! Here is is sitting next to the guy who just broke the track record, having a snow balls chance in hell of wining the race, why not go for it!! The worst they could do is wave off the start!! :lol:
[/b]

Love those BBR guys to death but if I were the stewards, it would have been a real easy 'stop and go' judgement if you didn't want to wave the start - and that WOULD HAVE been worse than a wave-off. Frankly, with just one car 'misaligned' (aka - jumping the start), I don't like a wave off anyway. Being second on grid is not a great spot IMHO, I would rather be 3rd or 4th to get a little run.

Anyway, great discussion. We all feel the frustration but we have kept it above board. True NER class. Needless to say that I have been looking forward to racing against Victor, Tim, Brandon and Brett, Greg, etc all winter. Maybe the NARRC runoffs we will all be back together!

LRP will be a little thin in a couple weeks.

AB

Greg Amy

06-01-2006, 09:57 PM

Anthony, I accept that the GCR has new verbiage controlling the speed of the start. However, the new GCR addition was not done to hobble the pole winner's advantage by putting him/her at a disadvantageous speed versus his/her competitors, it was added to stop the silly practice of pole sitters screaming away at the start and putting everyone else at a significant disadvantage.

At NHIS the pace car had us at 30 mph around the oval (as measured by GPS data aquisition, not a speedometer); that's about 3700 RPM for me in second gear, outside my optimal torque curve. The only alternative would have been to move to FIRST GEAR and 6500 RPM, but I would not have been able to maintain a consistent speed there and probably would as a result have dropped to 25 mph or so (OMG! A 17% deviation!) The bunching would have been much worst as a result. Plus, you don't want to get into a low-speed drag race with an SR20DE. I used my prerogative as the polesitter to set the pace speed to one which is most advantageous to me and - not so coincidentally - most disadvantageous for my significiantly-higher-geared HoMoCo competitors. I believe while it may violate the new letter of the rules, it's definitely within the spirit of them. Further, expect that the activity will continue going forward to a certain degree. If I have to ask the pace car to pick it up a bit, especially given there is no specific speeds called out in the GCR, then that's what'll happen, but write that number on your dashboard...best of all, I just handed you a nice big chunk o' strategy to mull over for the next race...

I'm unimpressed with silly statistics like **OMG 53%!!!** The reality is, it was 15 miles per hour. That difference is slower than most people were driving through the paddock.

Tim, I disagree with your assertion that the speed was not a factor in the accident; it can most certainly be argued it was a factor, simply because I had placed my - and as a result, Joe's - engine in its sweet spot. Joe got a hell of a run as a result and took a shot at a hole that was as big a chunk of daylight as pretty much any other corner/braking passing zone (e.g., NHIS Turn 3...). So, if you want to add that in as a factor, you won't hurt my feelings. Hell, just as Jeff pointed out, I'd have taken a run at that hole myself, especially given the delta speed, and I bet you would have too. It's real easy to sit here, four days later, already knowing the result, and saying you wouldn't have gone for it, but deep down I think we all know better. To say otherwise would be to say "nah, I'd not have gotten on that airplane that crashed" or "wouldn't have gone to work that day and gotten in the wreck". I'd like to think I'd have seen the accident coming and bailed out sooner as that chunk got smaller (sure is easy to see in hindsight from my desk while viewing multiple times from two different angles), but the fact is we'll never know.

Bottom line: Joe didn't bail, Erik didn't see him coming, and we all learned something important that day...

Finally, Carol, you're right, there are allowances for passion, and no need (or intention) to quash discussion. What I'd hope to avoid was a lot of ugliness, which, not so surprisingly, has not happened here... - GA

Andy Bettencourt

06-01-2006, 10:58 PM

As to the speed...and how it affected the outcome...it did - and here is why:

Greg brought the field up to 'his' speed very quickly. It wasn't much faster than the pace-car but I had to floor it (from the 3rd row) to get grouped. The differential in speed from the first three rows and the rows behind (greater the further you go back) was created by the timing of the green flag.

Rows 6-8 were probably close to full song when the flag flew creating a very large disparity in speed. This was not becuase they got great runs, but because the timing was just right as they were 'bunching up'. Take a look at Noem's video again, you will see what I mean. I actually count 8 wide as people scatter catching the front of teh field because the speeds were so different.

No blame on Greg, just an observation. I actually thought the green flew late...

Full diclosure: I was not aware of the new verbage on the pole-sitters duties. It seems as if it is the job of the front row to remain at the pace the pace-car set. Period. Hmmm...I can see legitimate protests coming from further back...I always thought the pole-sitter determined the pace but can't find that anywhere in previousl GCR's.

Z3_GoCar

06-02-2006, 12:34 AM

As an impartial, it looks to me like the minor bump of the green Golf on the blue Nissan was the inital cause; however, it looks like there might have been a similar action on the outside. But really glad no one was seriously hurt inspite of how hard the hits were.

As for setting the speed from the pole, it might be one of those things you learn in school and repeat over and over, but don't have in the GCR. Kind of the verbal tradition of racing.

James

(Not to get into blaming anyone; however, we can all learn that improved situational awareness is what would have prevented this.)

lateapex911

06-02-2006, 01:05 AM

Glad I wasn't there. Been there, done that.

Since I'm not a player, i won't render judgement, but the videos make it clear that judgment was lacking.

It's too bad.
As a guy who's started on every row from the second row to the last, Ii can say that kind of surging is typical, even when the lead row is consistant. Joe just got the cycle right...a lucky green timing. But Eric got a bit of it too....and neither wanted to give it back.

Greg Amy

06-02-2006, 05:38 AM

Andy - so noted. Thanks for the feedback.

"I broke the dam."

JLawton

06-02-2006, 05:59 AM

As others have stated, I'm glad this discussion didn't get ugly. Ugly discussions would only turn future racing ugly as well. I think this incident will make all of NER ITA a little more sensitive to their surroundings and fellow crashees. Other than that incident, and considering I was limping the whole weekend (and probably in the way) I appreciated everyone's clean driving.

Tkczecheredflag

06-02-2006, 06:34 AM

Greg - I think it is safe to say this disccusion is not about you, or your pace speed, or the officials wave off - At least form where I am coming from anyway. Congrats on your win - No need for you to feel a resposnsibility to moderate the discussion because of your pace speed or defend it to the group. You did what you did and the F&C repsonded the they way they responded. The GCR says what it says and I think it was appropriate for Anthony to point out the text and the math. Your interpretation of the rule is your interpretation, for better or worse - No biggy. The only relevance the start has is how WE, the rest of the field, responded to it. ALL of us, not just Joe and Eric - all of us. Right?

I don't want to :dead_horse: over "the hole" discussion but it is Joe and Eric's interpretation of "the hole" that I will continue to focus on. Would the two drivers in question have us believe that the option to feather out of the gas was some how mysteriously taken away from them, that some "Gas Pedal God" had control over their feet forcing it through the floor board, that "the red mist" from hell possed their inner soul driving them to racing greatness and they had no control over their ability to make "judgement call" ???? That's what I'm talking about- Guys making good or bad judgement calls based on the circumstances at hand and the cards dealt to them. Did they make a mistake? Hell Yeah! Did they make a poor judment call?? Hell Yeah! Is it uncomfortable for them to duscuss it openly in from of their peers?? Hell Yeah!!! Am I trying to humuliate them in public??? Hell No!!!. Am I hoping to nurture the opportunity for drivers to to reflect on the situation in the hope that they might THINK when the circumstances require thought??? Hell Yeah!!! Is it at Joe and Eric's expense??? Yeah - But I didn't create the opportunity - They did - I'm just respondiing to it. They don't need anyone to "block" for them - They're big boys as are we. I always try to walk a while in anothers shoes when I don't see eye to eye with them or in this case sit in their drivers seat. I suspect if you were sitting in my drivers seat might feel differently. Like you said in the beginning you really didn't see what happened.

If the discussion causes discomfort I suspect it's minimal in compasrison to the physical and financial discomfort I continue to feel. The way I deal with it is with my tongue and my cheek. I think the "Supps" say that's allowed - Maybe I read that somewhere else.

Finally - I hope to post my video (if I can figure out how) soon. Although it will not offer much more than Joe shooting off the wall and choping off my nose it might provoke thought.

gran racing

06-02-2006, 06:36 AM

No Greg, "I broke the dam."

(Still laughing at that silly episode I was forced into watching!)

Tkczecheredflag

06-02-2006, 06:38 AM

For the record - JOE - I STILL LOVE YA!

ERIC - Joe and I are going to see "Broke Back Mountain" again tonight - Wanna to come???

dominojd

06-02-2006, 06:55 AM

Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda. I guess that's racin.

First off I want to say sorry to all involved in the incident. If I would have thought for one minute
any of this could have happened, shit I woulda locked down the binders and slid in behing Erik.
Could it have been avoided Maybe, maybe not. I guess we will never know.
As far as my take on the incident all I needed was few measily inches to have made the pass
and continued on my merry way. I'm not going to turn this into a pissing match of who did what and what should have
been done.
I will and hope everyone else will use this as a learning experience of what not to do.

I have to agree with Jeff on this one. Tim gets the "rising from the ashes award"!! And the best sense of humor!!
I have just recently met Tim and he has to be one of the nicest guys I have met in a while, classy guy.
You could see it in his face how pissed he was but just grinned and beared it and moved on. Tim you and Victor could
have bitch slapped me I woulda took it like a man. :)

I'm glad to here you are OK Anthony. I didn't know anytyhing about anyone making a visit to the Hospital
until yesterday reading it here on the forum between its down time.

I hope to see all at the track real soon.

For the record - JOE - I STILL LOVE YA!

ERIC - Joe and I are going to see "Broke Back Mountain" again tonight - Wanna to come???
[/b]

I love ya to man! (tear in my eye)

Cool i love that movie been there 5 times already. :happy204:

Tkczecheredflag

06-02-2006, 06:56 AM

Nicely done Joe - No BS.

Is it your turn to drive to the movies tonight or mine - Show starts at 7:00 - Eric are you coming???

almracing

06-02-2006, 08:14 AM

Thanks guys... I am feeling ok. I can certainly understand that news travels differently around the paddock. Especially when you are under the car with hammers and welders. Unless of course there is a rumor about a "fast car"... then news travels fast. (tongue and cheek)

I agree that Greg should put himself into the best position to clear the field at the start. That is the privilege of being the pole sitter. Unfortunately, on this particular Saturday the stars aligned to make Greg's strategy one of the many items that are now part of our discussions. I do have to say that I got to watch him driving around on Sunday... he was fast (I say driving around, because no-one was near him. :D). Seems that alot of work has payed off.

I am hoping to get the car back on the track for August. Initial inspection by my body shop guy shows that it can be pulled. We need to take some measurements to see if anything is twisted. Nothing that alot of money won't fix... DOH! (There goes my new golf clubs)

The discussion here has been very good. I know that beneath the discussions are some pissed drivers/car owners, but everyone seems to understand that racing is not always a kind sport. I personally run a CRX because I know that the car could come back as a wad of metal someday. That is easier to explain to the Mrs. than crunching a $50,000 BMW.

mgyip

06-02-2006, 08:27 AM

Now that the dust is settling and I've waded thru this thread, let me start by saying that I'm sorry to see that so many cars were damaged. I won't get into the "blame game" but am very curious if the Stewards took any action other than pulling tech stickers?

Doc Bro

06-02-2006, 09:43 AM

I've been quiet on this....but I did have a bird's eye view. I was the first car to get through clean, leaving me in 6th. I'll try to post my in car soon. THE TRACK WAS BLOCKED because we were running 7 wide or something crazy. It's always exciting!! (smart -questionable, exciting -yes)

Sorry to all involved. If it is any consolation I think Joe was a gentleman in his post. Joe, I'll race with you any day, and I've enjoyed meeting you.

Victor, my sincerest regrets in regards to your recent bad fortune. You are the nicest guy with the worst luck and you and your Dad represent what this type of racing is supposed to be about, others should follow your lead. I feel for you and can't wait to see you at the track real soon. Hope it's fixable.

Tim, way to pull victory from the hands of defeat.

In my opinion it is ALL...EXCLUSIVELY.....UNDOUBTEDLY....WITHOUT QUESTION.....Greg's fault.
And I personally would like to invite him to remove himself (as a gentleman) from the rest of the season. Or run an SIR, or remove the calipers from the rear, or run a 3" wide rim, or........

Congrats friend.....

R

JLawton

06-02-2006, 11:17 AM

In my opinion it is ALL...EXCLUSIVELY.....UNDOUBTEDLY....WITHOUT QUESTION.....Greg's fault.
And I personally would like to invite him to remove himself (as a gentleman) from the rest of the season. Or run an SIR, or remove the calipers from the rear, or run a 3" wide rim, or........
R
[/b]

That's too funny!! :lol: Yeah, I think I smell an SIR coming on!! My propsal is in the mail to the CRB!!

biovic

06-02-2006, 12:46 PM

Rob, thanks for your kind words. (I second your sentiments about my Dad, he has always been there for me with this crazy hobby of mine.) :rolleyes: And my wife Cyndie needs to be mentioned for her constatnt support also.
I can say the same in that this is the way I feel about most of the guys I race with in ITA, great guys that enjoy cars and enjoy racing on the weekends, and that's why I do race in ITA. Yes, I was very upset last weekend and had the inkling to stay away for a while, but I'm coming back! :cavallo:
The good news for me is the Integra is fixable, I had the body shop come to my garage yesterday. A little time on the frame machine to pull the front, the drivers side rocker and the passenger rear quarter, that’s all for that machine. Of course then the new door, fender, rear panel, front bumper, headlights, rear upper control arms. Then straighten and undent the other fender, the hood, the other rear quarter, and the rear hatch. Some new tires and I’ll be all set, no problem! <_< That’s why I work, to pay for racing. (not)
See you in July, either the 4th or the 8th, not sure yet.

Don’t get me wrong, I won’t be all buddy buddy just yet with the wrongdoers (IMO), I’ll hold a grudge for a while. B)

Victor
ITA #03

Very special thanks to my newest sponsor, RAMSDELL Motorsports (aka C&G Autobody in Beverly, MA)

JLawton

06-02-2006, 02:22 PM

Here are some pictures from the event.
http://allisonf.smugmug.com/gallery/1514161

http://allisonf.smugmug.com/gallery/1515663

Doug, let us know when you have your pictures posted. Hope you got one of the new car before the damage!!

RSTPerformance

06-02-2006, 04:49 PM

I have only seen one video (the one posted here) and I did not see the race... I had lots going on in my world as well, so with that all I want to point out one thing that I instantly saw in the video and many drivers I think could benefit from the advice... It may or may not have anything to do with the incident, but it instantly came to mind.

Go sit in your car and check your mirrors... do you have blind spots? If so fix them... this is racing and you never know where somone might be trying to make a move. While it is the responsability of the "passing" car to have room I personally feel that it is also the responsability of the "getting passed" car to leave room. This also aplies (and may be more relevent) in hard braking zones... Once you have entered the braking zone the car that is trying or maybe made a mistake and outbroke you when they shouldn't have probably cant slow down any faster than they are, if you turn down on them they have NO PLACE to go. people seem to always use the excuse "I never saw you" or "it was my line, you should have moved." Remember that once a driver has made a commitment to some sort of action many times they cant change that, and if you can avoid them to prevent an accident you should, for yourself, for them, and for the rest of us who want to go home without an incident. You might loose a position and if you really feel they made a "red mist" move or "dive bomb" go chat with them after the race, with a stright car...

My initial thought when watching the video from (I think) the blue Sentra is that the green VW didn't see the sentra, or thought the sentra had plenty of room to continue moving over. The sentra with good reason went for the open hole, as any aggresive/good driver would do. The sentra may or may not have been able to slow down to avoid the hit, not sure. At anyrate, I simply saw 1 video and different views certainly add a different opinions many times.

Glad to see everyone will make it out for another day, good luck on your repairs!!!

Raymond "we have all made mistakes, most of us have learned and will continue to learn" Blethen

Greg Amy

06-02-2006, 08:43 PM

...And I personally would like to invite him to remove himself (as a gentleman) from the rest of the season. Or run an SIR, or remove the calipers from the rear, or run a 3" wide rim, or...[/b]

You guys are too much!! Although Brandon was talking about passing the hat among ITA competitors to cover my 2006 tire bill, but only if I agreed to run Toyos...or Continentals or something like that...and I think he was serious...instead of "Hoosier" on the fender I could put "Thanks NER ITA Competitors!"...

Hmmm..... :023:

16v

06-02-2006, 10:00 PM

Doug, let us know when you have your pictures posted. Hope you got one of the new car before the damage!!
[/b]

they were up Wed night

http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/nh2/images/DSC_2071.jpg

Tkczecheredflag

06-02-2006, 10:43 PM

they were up Wed night

http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/nh2/images/DSC_2071.jpg
[/b]
Doug - Please post #1616 - Considering the circumstances it's a classic.
Great Shots!

Andy Bettencourt

06-03-2006, 07:28 AM

Your wish sir...

http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/nh2/images/DSC_1616.jpg

http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/nh2/images/DSC_1617.jpg

http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/nh2/images/DSC_1618.jpg

Jeremy Billiel

06-03-2006, 07:48 AM

Your wish sir...

http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/nh2/images/DSC_1616.jpg

http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/nh2/images/DSC_1617.jpg

http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/nh2/images/DSC_1618.jpg
[/b]

What a shame! I loved having a red twin! Hope to see everyone at the track soon!

Andy Bettencourt

06-03-2006, 08:14 AM

No need to wait Jeremy! This is why everyone gave him the 'back-from-the-ashes' award!!!

3rd place on Sunday :birra:

http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/nh2/images/DSC_2085.jpg

StephF

06-03-2006, 08:38 AM

Andy Bettencourt

06-03-2006, 08:42 AM

Hey, what am I doing wrong in regards to 16v? I go to your site, and all I can find is from 2005 back. Can you post the link to this years photos, especially from this event?
Thanks!
[/b]

http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/default.htm

First pull down is 2006 NER Events

StephF

06-03-2006, 08:44 AM

Ah HA! There it is!
Thanks Andy!

cpm motorsports

06-03-2006, 10:24 AM

It is still a bit of a shock to see the condition the car was in. Getting the car back on track was a miracle,
but so was the fact that there were no serious injuries. And I neglected, in my "height of passion" to say
thank you for all the physical and emotional support we received then and since.
I think we have all come away from this with a truer sense of what the racing community is really about.

carol

16v

06-03-2006, 10:24 AM

sorry 'bout that, you may have needed to refresh the window to get the newest additions to load :024:

Tkczecheredflag

06-03-2006, 01:29 PM

I loved Tim's story about Kathy Barnes and his car after the wreck....maybe if you ask him nicely, he'll relay it for you guys too. :P
Hey, what am I doing wrong in regards to 16v? I go to your site, and all I can find is from 2005 back. Can you post the link to this years photos, especially from this event?
Thanks!
[/b]

Okay here goes. After getting bounced around during the start at T-1 (almost T-1), I pull my straps a little tighter (video to follow soon), and like a good racer should, find first gear and get the #11 underwayagain. I'm getting all the funny smells you might imagine after a wreck, hear a lot of rubbing and grinding, but I'm stil on all four so we race - right??? I make it through the first lap (finally) and while doing so I'm watching the eyes of all my hereos working the corners to see if I can learn more about the condidtion of the car. I'm also watching the gauges and except for the fact that I am runnig cooler than usual - 160 degrees on the water temp- everyhting seems okay (at that point I didn't realize I had no nose on the car thus the 160). Next time through T-3 they hang the "meatball #11" and one worker gives me the "smoking hand signal" (you have to remember my roots were in F&C for three years under the leadership of Dick P, so I know the hand signals). I radio to Jerry M that unless I am dropping fluid I believe I am okay to race - the gauges are good. I pull into the pits, find my crew, and Kathy Barnes is working the pits and comes over to the car, finds the piece of door molding hanging off my door, while Jerry takes a look at the front. She says, "okay you're good to go" - the racing gods have spoken, :happy204: right on!!!. Jerry in the front says I don't think so - thank god because I probally would have run him over. Needless to say after pulling off the bumper rail Kathy thought better of letting me make laps - of course I agreed. :wacko: