Decreased Traffic?

[Knestis]

Mr. Dewhurst suggested elsewhere that he's seen a decrease in traffic here in the last few months, and wondered if it was influenced by the new system...

FWIW, while I'm not a fan of the sub-topic structure, I don't think that's been an influence on my posting rate, personally. Instead, I don't post as much simply because the dominant paradigm of this community has shifted dramatically in the last year, around the subject of most of my past interactions here - rules, their interpretations, and the philosophies that they reflect.

We used to have really good discussions about this stuff, with various positions being trotted out and kicked around. It used to be that there was a balance of sorts, in terms of histories, expectations, and positions, that contributed to a lively community. Yeah, there were disputes but people - including myself - actually considered the good questions raised enough that they re-thought their positions, and sometimes learned things. We got collectively smarter about the game.

That's no longer the case, for whatever reason.

Maybe I'm just a sore loser and the world has changed but those discussions seem to have been washed away by a wave of revisionist thinking (vs. originalist or "rules NERD" interpretations of the ITCS). IT entrants (those here, at least) sound more and more like their Production brothers - pushing interpretations, fighting for make/model competitive-edge turf, and making discussions about rules an extension of on-track racing rather than academic discourse. There also seems to have been an increase in shout-em-down tactics. Or maybe I'm just getting old. Whatever, it just quit being fun and interesting.

The perception of those involved, that a closed forum was going to be the only way to discuss ITR without getting mired in poo-chucking, is a SYMPTOM of the problem, not a cause of it. We've seen the complete implosion of a different good racing board in the last month or so, and it would be a terrible shame for this one to follow. A social scientist might tell us that cultural movement is inevitable and that all communities run their race, then evolve or die - but that regardless, they change. I'd like to hope that whatever direction this one goes, it's productive.

Kirk (aka "he who has the second greatest number of it.com posts")

[tom_sprecher]

I don't have a problem with the new system as I generally just "view new posts" as I guess most others do. Having a sub-topic structure is nice while doing searches or targeting a specific group, but several sub-topics could be folding together or brought up to the front. I think ARRC and Enduro racing should be combined and the tech subs brought forward, but that's just my opinion. Another forum (ApexSpeed) has more topics than you can shake a stick at and they have 3-4 times the traffic than is present here. Who knows?

The constant discussion of the “Rules” or the competitiveness of one car vs. another may be turning members off. It just seems like the usual suspects rehashing the same old crap. In general it’s boring. A "General Off Topic Discussion" might be good just to share non-IT subjects of interest.

It also may be the typical IT racer does not have the time, wherewithal or inclination to frequently post here. I wish they did. I frequent ApexSpeed (Formula Cars) and those guys can’t stop posting. If you go to the GT1DA (GT1 Cars) they never post on that forum. There’s no rhyme or reason to it.

[gran racing]

I'm a huge fan of IT.com but really do not like all of the new sub forums. Its just not necessary and creates more issues than its worth. The ONLY way I review this forum now is using the"posts since your last visit" feature. Unfortunately I've found that I miss some interesting topics this way (could be my fault). In the past, it was nice to be able to quickly pop into the major topics (rules, general, tech, and my general area - N.E.). Now I never do this.

I would really love to see the sub posts removed.

[C. Ludwig]

I don't like the sub forums either. I'll not look at posts because I don't want to click-click-click to get to them. However, I don't think I post any less because of it. I just don't read some threads that may be out of my topic range that I probably wouldn't respond to anyway.

That said I'm not running my car this summer because of several things but the state of the economy and gas prices are chief among them. I'm sure others are in the same boat. Because I'm not running the car my interest level in all things IT has slacked a bit.

[planet6racing]

The whole reason I've really stopped posting/reading is because of the Sub-Topics. I just don't want to make that many clicks to see what is new. And I don't use the "What's New" thingy because then I don't see what is old, too.

Plus, the BMW/Washer bottle/ECU discussions have gotten really old...

[lateapex911]

I'm on the fence on the subtopic thing. I thought I noticed a drop in postings too, but figured we were all out racing or prepping.

Also, I'm in danger of being IT.coms third or fourth "loser" as Kirk puts it, but frankly, I'd rather be further down the list, LOL.

I imagine that the internet has spawned sooo many sites that we look at ...Honda sites, Volkswagen sites, and so on that our time is divided. Some are still on phone lines or even DSL, and opening up more layers is really slow...you forget how frustrating it can be if you have fast cable. So for some, the new multi leveld approach is a drag.

[Jeremy Billiel]

I imagine that the internet has spawned sooo many sites that we look at ...Honda sites, Volkswagen sites, and so on that our time is divided. Some are still on phone lines or even DSL, and opening up more layers is really slow...you forget how frustrating it can be if you have fast cable. So for some, the new multi leveld approach is a drag.
[/b]

I believe this is certainly some of the problem. I know I have like 5 boards I frequent and I can't keep up with them all. I like to subtopics usually, but this only works well when there is a lot of traffic IMO. As this topic suggests, the board is down on traffic so right now it seems like a lot of clicks to get to where you want. There are still a lot of good people in this forum, but we have all given up talking about SIR's and how to butcher the rules to read how you want. I can tell you that Greg A and Kirk have just about stopped posting and are missed.

[Ron Earp]

A

But ITR happened differently. I was involved in the early off board discussions...and my email box was overloaded! We dicussed a forum on another board, but then, out of the blue, the "secret room" was set up here, and without the consultation of the 4 principals...or even a notification to them.
[/b]

This was puzzling to me. I logged in, could find no dicussion of ITR anywhere, and after emailing some folks found they were all in their own forum. Like you said, everyone went with it, but some notification to the folks that were setting up ITR and pushing for it would had been nice. No sleep lost.

But, I must say, I'm not liking the Subforums much. I comtemplating taking my forum, www.gt40s.com, and going over to the Invision software that powers this board. But, in the end I didn't do that and chose another software package. At any rate, both packages under consideration would do subforums but we'd never had them on GT40s.com and didn't want them - a click on the main page shows every forum we have, none hidden, and you can easily view the top post in each forum.

I remember with IT.com switched to subforums I was discussing it with some racers and none of them particularily liked it either. I know that my viewing of IT.com dropped off with the subforums, although I make an effort to return multiple times per day. I know I miss a lot of posts that I might like to read just because I'm "old school" and tend to get information by gathering it, sometimes slowly, instead of having it handed to me by an engine.

In fact, I thought about this new delivery method the other day. While I was working on my doctorate, years ago, library technology was nothing like it was today. So,the articles that I photocopied from scientific journals, some 500+ of them, were all obtained by getting the journal from the shelf, thumbing through it, finding what I wanted, and reading/photocopying it. Along the way I read a lot of articles I didn't intend on reading, but gained a lot of tangental knowledge and got an intuitive feel for where things were and where to look. I suppose you do the same thing now, faster, and have time for other things instead. But I still can't help feeling as if something is missed with the modern procedues we have now.

Anyhow, subforums, don't like'em that much.

Ron

[ryotko]

I was never much of a poster (I've learned way more than I could contribute) but I do find myself not stopping here as much as I used to.
I wish as much effort was put into "fixing" the things that could be better about IT as was put into the ITR initiative. Things like Motec stuffed OEM boxes, the BMW weight issue, VIN requirement, etc.

I'll admit that I haven't kept up with the latest ITR developments but it seems like a class of $30K+ (when new) street cars to me. Is this really where IT should be going? I just have to wonder how many are going to be built. You're looking at $10K - $20K donors for a lot of the cars on that list. Before someone points out the huge money (for an IT car) being spent on the 325 in ITS ask yourself how many of those cars wouldn't have been built if it didn't have a clear advantage. If ITR is done right, and I think a huge amount of effort is being put into doing it right, there won't be any car with an overwhelming advantage. Maybe I'm being naive but I've always looked at IT as an entry level class.

To sum it up, it seems that the emphasis in IT is moving in a direction that I'm not willing, or able to go. I'd like to see more newer cars added to the lower classes as a way of growing IT.

On the topic of subforums. I'm not big fan of them, but I look at it as someone tried to make the site better. This is still one of the best forums on the web for entry level racing.

-Bob

[Wayne]

Mr. Dewhurst suggested elsewhere that he's seen a decrease in traffic here in the last few months, and wondered if it was influenced by the new system...
[/b]
The format is the sole reason that I do not visit here much anymore, and when I do visit it seems traffic is way down from before the change over. In my experience the only time this multi-section type format works on a discussion forum is when you have significant membership numbers. Like 200K type numbers.

Otherwise the multi-section format dose nothing but fragment and frustrate a small community like this. People get tired of the micromanagement of topics, and figuring out what micro forum a specific topic is supposed to go in. Then once you find the forum section, there are only three posts in the last 6 months in there.

It's actually pretty typical behavior for online forum communities that eventually bite the dust because of low participation numbers. In my experience designs like this format are most often done by "technical" people who are organizers and insist on sub-categorizing every little topic under the sun. They do this because it seems "logical" in their mind. That kind of mindset is fine for collecting data and such but it is a death warrant for a once active online community.

This topic really bothers me because I used to like this forum quite a bit. I felt the participants were more mature, open, and helpful than the other racing forums I frequent. I used to log on everyday and participate. Now I log on once every two or three weeks at best.

If you want to revitalize and grow this community, I suggest going back to the original sections with no sub-sections for this or that, no funky sections at the top of every main section etc. It's imperative to keep it simple when you have such a small membership.

Wayne

[Ron Earp]

To sum it up, it seems that the emphasis in IT is moving in a direction that I'm not willing, or able to go. I'd like to see more newer cars added to the lower classes as a way of growing IT.
[/b]

We are trying to add newer cars to IT, newer "sporting" cars that maybe new SCCA members would be interested in building and driving. But adding cars to C/B looks like it'd be hard to do. I had just started reading the board when the New Beatle was added to C, what a thread! But besides that, cars just don't have 75hp stock anymore and the ones that do are few and far between. I think most of the entry level econoboxes made over the last 10 years have more power than C supports, and probably B.

This same situation drove the creation of R too. Just about any"sporting" car made in the last 10 years or so simply is above the performance envelope for S. As time marches on so does performance potential.

Ron

[gran racing]

I do find myself not stopping here as much as I used to. I wish as much effort was put into "fixing" the things that could be better about IT as was put into the ITR initiative. [/b]

Bob, that was my first reaction too! Instead of giving the rich more classes to choose from, why not focus a bit more on how to better make IT easier for the masses (still middle class, right?) to enter. If a person has $30K plus to spend on a racecar, they'll find a way to get into racing just fine. But after giving more thought to it and what that committee's role is, whould they be the ones to pursue some of the items I think IT should be focusing on?

Jake's right, if we want more cars being classed, "all" we need to do is submit the requests. Bob, I'm not so sure that having more cars classes is the answer to what we're looking for though. I don't want to get into the other issues with the MX5 Cup, but SCCA is sealing engines and doing interesting stuff there. Hmm, but that stuff goes against the IT philosophy. What else could be done to make IT cheaper?

After thinking about this more, maybe SCCA needs a new class (not category)?

<div align="center">Back to our regularly scheduled program.</div>
Yeah, there&#39;s only so much SIR and weight talk I can take before I got bored with it.
I&#39;ve spoken with a few other people about where they&#39;ve been on IT.com, and the sub forum thing is always first out of their mouths.

<div align="center">Quick commercial break. :D </div>

Oh, going waaay off topic again but thought you guys can relate to this... Nice, my wife now talks to me about prices for things in terms of tires. :angry: We were at Home Depot looking at fencing, and some other stuff. One of the things she asked what my thoughts were about it - "Hmm. I guess it&#39;s nice but kinda expensive." Out of the blue she responds "Dave, that&#39;s only two tires!" Doh! Of course meanwhile I&#39;m thinking "Yeah! That&#39;s two tires I could get. Why in the would would we want to buy that silly thing when I could buy tires?" Needless to say, we&#39;ll be making a trip to Home Depot sometime this week to buy that thingy.

[Jake]

FWIW, I used to be here all the time. When the new sub-forum structure started I complained. When it didn&#39;t change, I pretty much stopped posting/reading here. It&#39;s just way too hard to find stuff now.

[MMiskoe]

Personally I don&#39;t have any use for the sub-topics.

I look at less things here now than I used to for one simple reason - the refresh speed is agonizingly SLOW! It used to open up a new screen as fast as you clicked it, for what ever reason its a long pause in between screens. The additional screens to click through certaily does nothing to help either.

Matt

[planet6racing]

2 other things I thought of whilst re-reading this:

1) This forum runs much slower than the others I read. It opens slower. It runs slower. Its just generally an ITD car in the land of ITS forums.

2) Lack of focus in topics. Case in point - this thread. Its gone from decreased traffic to Rules nerds to SIRs...

[gsbaker]

With respect to the original topic, it is my opinion as a casual observer that any decrease in traffic is the product of those factors already mentioned, especially the increase in the number of forums. There was a time when those interested in amateur road racing had very little choice and IT.com was an excellent resource, even if one was not racing IT. With more forums for viewers/posters to chose from, IT.com has become, quite naturally, more focused on that which its name implies, IT racing.

Re subtopics, it is probably a negative, net net. That&#39;s unfortunate in some regards because a poster can target a specific topic without concern about boring the general community; it makes casual viewing more arduous, however.

Which goes to the tone, which I believe has changed. It is possible (more qualified opinion, anyone?) that the subtopic format promotes more somber consideration of serious, specialized subjects. Very productive but not nearly as much fun as throwing it in the "General IT Discussions" pot and stirring on high heat.

That&#39;s said, I&#39;m going to start a less somber thread, just for fun. :)

[imported_Webmaster]

>> Personally I don&#39;t have any use for the sub-topics.

Can somebody explain to me what they mean by "subtopics" There are a few in Tech Talk. You dont have to use them. You can post on the first page of Tech Talk if you wish. Otherwise the IT.com heirarchy is the same as its been for about 5 years. Below is a throwback to 2001

http://web.archive.org/web/20010801155352/...ring.com/chat2/ (http://web.archive.org/web/20010801155352/improvedtouring.com/chat2/)

I dont understand this "exta clicks"
I do agree that the forums are slower in general and that is somethign thats going to be adressed when I find time to change the look again. The speed decrease is due to some of the images or ads.

In case it needs to be said, the purpose of sub-FORUMS is to organize things so that somebody who wished to read through IT related suspension posts can do so easily without having to wade through 100 other posts about unrelated issues.

[gran racing]

First let me preface this by saying I am a huge fan of it.com! Everything being said in this thread is meant to be constructive feedback that hopefully will make this forum even better.

In regards to it.com being much slower – I don’t find that to be a problem. Heck, when I’m home looking at it.com, I’m still using dial up. Although DSL is finally being installed this week. J

About sub forums. Forget the whole then versus now – it really doesn’t matter what it was like (I need to remind myself of this too). Currently, in addition to the regular forum topics, the following are sub forums:

Engine Tech
Suspension
Chasis Fabrication
Driving Tech-nique
Data Acquisition

Fastrack
Vehicle classing process (another protected forum)

Race tracks
New to racing?

To a new person visiting this site, and to those of us who visit here frequently, there are too many sub forums. The extra clicks notion relates directly to how many sub forums there are and if a person wants to review what’s out there.


the purpose of sub-FORUMS is to organize things…[/b]
I hear what you are saying, but it creates other problems. In regards to having to go through all of the other stuff to get at what people want to see – don’t forget, there’s still the search functionality if someone wants to find something specific.

My question for everyone is what (if any) sub forums would you recommend keeping?

My personal feeling is ditch all but possibly Data Acquisition, and New to Racing.

[imported_Webmaster]

OK I actually agree that the latter of those subforums can go. I just haven&#39;t had the time to do it.
But nobody uises them anyway. So I&#39;m still confused. What&#39;s the big issue?

In the tech section there are some subforums that make organizational sense. Other that is there any problem with any of the other forum layout ? Looking for constructive criticism.

[itracer]

Heck, when I’m home looking at it.com, I’m still using dial up. Although DSL is finally being installed this week.
[/b]

OMG -- First he gets moved to ITB and now he is going to have faster internet! When will it stop? :o

[Wayne]

Other that is there any problem with any of the other forum layout ? Looking for constructive criticism.
[/b]
As I mentioned in my previous post, I think it is important to keep the categories very simple on a forum that has so little traffic. While I understand the desire to sub categorize for purposes of making data retrieval on a specific subject easier, that only works if you have significant forum traffic whereby stuff actually gets posted in all the sub categories. I think a better strategy for small forums relative to data retrieval is to insure that the forum search engine is robust. If I want recent posts on 6-point harnesses I can just do a search and pull-up up the posts on said subject.

I respectfully suggest the following format:

Tech Talk

Rules, Regulations, and Classing

General IT Discussions

Driving Technique and specific Race Track questions

Specific car Models

When a person comes to the IT forum page they see the above categories only. When they click into one of the above main categories they see a list of posts only. No subcategories, no full page long list of "stickys" etc. Just a simple list of the posts under that main category.

When the forum reaches 75K active members, and new posts are rolling off first page of the main categories every 60 seconds, then maybe look at adding further subcategories.

Wayne

[turboICE]

I only use view new posts.

I think the top level topics are fine, the second level topics are uneccessary and burdensome IMO. Just have one level of topics.

As for the rest of it in off season getting involved in discussion which I ultimately have an opinion on that I will feel compelled to participate in just isn&#39;t worth the time during the season.

Also I think that anything that is worth discussing on this forum should be worth discussing publically - a locked section limited to those with the same views isn&#39;t much of a discussion.

I definitely like the new system and interface much better than the old forum system.

[tnord]

without reading this whole thing i drop some loose change on the original subject....

as some of you know me from other boards, and know that i post and read quite frequently, the forum breakdown does lead to less reading/posting for me. on a certain other board that just got created i&#39;m there all the time because i can take a quick glance at everything that&#39;s being discussed in literally 10seconds (when it&#39;s working). here it takes about 10x longer to sift through everything. the result is that i really only click on two forums to see what&#39;s going on.

:024:

[imported_Webmaster]

I think the top level topics are fine, the second level topics are uneccessary and burdensome IMO. Just have one level of topics.
[/b]

You think there should only be 4 topics?
Or do you mean no 3rd level topics?


I have removed some of the subforums. I&#39;m looking at removing more.
But I REALLY want to understand what is meant by "additional clicks"

If you want to read posts on Mazda IT cars or NE Division IT posts how is this forum any differnt than it was when started years ago?

Trying to understand.


>> and opening up more layers is really slow...you forget how frustrating it can be if you have fast cable.

At the very bottom of every page it says "lo-fi" Use this if yo have dial up. Aslo this can be set in your personal profiles to be the permenant look. That will make the site fly.

Also speed should be increased for eeveryone now. Some things were optimised while we were eradicating the hacker&#39;s crap.

[turboICE]

You think there should only be 4 topics?
Or do you mean no 3rd level topics?
I have removed some of the subforums. I&#39;m looking at removing more.
But I REALLY want to understand what is meant by "additional clicks"
[/b]

Doesn&#39;t affect me as much anymore since the layering stopped me from looking in the layers for topics and I only view new posts now.

I guess third level in the admin hiearchy.

What I mean is that when I was looking at the forum page - and wanted to read on Tech Talk I wanted to click there and see everything I didn&#39;t want to have to go into and out of 4 subsections of Tech Talk.

All topics on the front forum page are fine - it was the subtopics below these that sent me to viewing new posts and avoiding the hiearchy of the sub-forums.

[imported_Webmaster]

subforums removed.

[Jeremy Billiel]

I like it much better! Thank you!

[imported_Webmaster]

Regarding the traffic...we dont even have a years worth of stas yet but the home page stats go way back and show a fluctuation every year. People seemed to get all geared up in the early spring and pre-ARRC.

Summer always slows down because some people with real lives dont sit in front of the monitor all day and night :P

Here are some #s to chew on....

Forum Popularity

http://www.improvedtouring.com/temp/stat1.jpg

Number of Monthly topics holding around 200+

http://www.improvedtouring.com/temp/stat2.jpg

Number of total posts is dropping since March. :unsure:

http://www.improvedtouring.com/temp/stat3.jpg

Total MB of traffic through home page (not a good measure)

http://www.improvedtouring.com/temp/stat4.jpg

[gsbaker]

Posts per topic is down since March, but do you have a measure of views per topic? Without year-over-year stats it is difficult to draw a conclusion. Could just be seasonal.

One thing is for certain: There are too many rules nerds in the Northeast. :duck:

;)

[ddewhurst]

***:duck:***

I like that ^ , some of them expect some of us to :OLA: to them.

Next thing ya know taking the torch & whacking away on the chassis so that a roll cage will fit will be deamed legal. Don&#39;t matter that ya can lighten the crap out of the chassis. :014:

[emwavey]

Lot&#39;s of stuff going on, both personal and professional have left me with not much time to visit IT.com

...

I&#39;m just glad it&#39;s still here and you guys are still posting. :)

FWIW, I really like the new format and happy to see some effort making IT.com a better place. Anyone remember how we used to have to post wanted ads? 1000 x better!

[gsbaker]

Dave,

It gets better by the minute; we have Blethen doing rap. ;)

[emwavey]

I saw that, kind of scary. Next thing you&#39;ll tell me is that he&#39;s actually able to take the ball to the hoop ...

Where&#39;s that basketball icon?

-dave, who&#39;s CRX is in the garage for no reason relating to the additional weight
8)