How the heck do you set up these FWD cars?

[zracer22]

I'm a BMW e30 racer for the lat 8 years, The GTI is my first FWD racecar. So what is the hot setup for suspenson. It has GC coil overs and that is all, everything else is stock. It doesn't have to be ITA legal because I will race it in GTS Challenge. www.gtschallenge.com I plan to lighten the car as much as possible, and squeeze as much HP out of the car as possible.

I will be visiting Bildon for a LSD, but after that I really don't know what to do next!

Thanks in advance for all the help you guys will provide.

Mark

[Bildon]

We just signed on to do a contingency program with the GTS Challenge. Hopefully we can get some of you guys up in front of thre Bimmers and Porsches. Shoot us an email and we'll help you out.

[zracer22]

Thanks Bill. That's great news, I'm glad you a Jeremy worked something out. I'll give you a call today from Mid Ohio if I get a chance.

Mark

[RSTPerformance]

Bill-

When are you going to give the VW/Audi guys/gals from scca something!!! ;) JK


Mark-

As for setting up the car, those Bildon boys have it figured out ;) You should do well by them. For additional ideas give Shine Racing a call. They also have the VW well sorted!!!

The VW guys/gals that are on this website I am sure will also chime in... some of them also have them really dialed in and should be able to help you out a lot.

When we started with the Audi's we (The Team) also had 10+ years of experience in RWD, but not a clue on FWD. We talked to many people with many different setups/ideas all of whome were fast. We then took our own path, and it has done us well so far.

Good Luck;

Raymond

[Knestis]

For some reason, I can't get to www.gtschallenge.com - what's the deal with the VWs being eligible now? I missed a memo. What's the class structure where the Golfs fit?

K

[Bildon]

Any sedan or coupe from any German manufacturer - Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Merkur or Volkswagen - that has been modified to meet all N.A.S.A Club Codes and Safety Regulations, and having a N.A.S.A issued log book is eligible for GTS Challenge competition.
Any modification is allowed as long as it meets all safety regulations.

Formula:

weight
____________
(WHP+WTQ)\2

Classes...

With DOT race tires (slicks classed higher)
GTSU = 5.99 and lower
GTS5 = 6.0 - 8.49
GTS4 = 8.5 - 10.99
GTS3 = 11.0 - 14.49
GTS2 = 14.50 - 18.49
GTS1 = 18.50 and higher

Hmmm, 1.8T GTIs have a place to play....

[lateapex911]

Interesting formula...

Just for giggles, I plugged in my ITA 1st gen RX-7:

2280

_________ so, 2280 /118 =19.3222

(130 + 106+236, 236/2= 118)

So that lands me in the GTS1 class...except I'm not eligible..

What does an ITB Golf look like numbers -wise?

Other questions....where do the WHP and WTQ numbers come from??
And ANY mod is allowed??? WOW...THAT is big time expensive. Think of all the chassis stuff you have to do in any particular class if you want to be at the top......

[Knestis]

Hmmm.

A place for my mythical tarmac rally crossover Golf. Seam welded, fully lightened, MkII Golf with a close-ratio 'box and built ABA 2.0.

The proper gearbox would cost $6K but...

K

[Bildon]

I was just paraphrasing the rules. If you check out their website you get the complete rules.
http://www.gtschallenge.com/rules.htm

Note they run under the 13/13 rule so like PCA so it's not quite "real racin"
Y'all know that "rubbin is racin" :D right?
Or depending on your point of view that rule actually enforces REAL racing... you have to be faster to overtake and not just a bully. :P

Kirk, why stop there? How about a Synchro Golf (AKA Rallye Golf) like this...

http://www.bildon.com/pub/SyncroGolf001.jpghttp://www.bildon.com/pub/SyncroGolf004.jpghttp://www.bildon.com/pub/SyncroGolf005.jpg

[Bildon]

>> When are you going to give the VW/Audi guys/gals from scca something!!!

Raymond. Umm, How about now? :D

We'll be at many NARRC and NYSRRC races this year with a new trailer full of parts...and we are about to announce a contingency program for IT racers running our gear. :eclipsee_steering:
http://www.bildon.com/pub/Trailer_sm.jpg

SCCA Club Racing is less "commerce friendly" than SCCA Pro where we have been active for years. So it's harder to help "SCCA Club" racers as a group. Trying to get anything established with a region or a series like NYSRRC or NARRC is tough...it's just not set up like NASA or SCCA Pro.

Are you listening SCCA ???? :023:

[zracer22]

And ANY mod is allowed??? WOW...THAT is big time expensive. Think of all the chassis stuff you have to do in any particular class if you want to be at the top......
[/b]

Expensive....not really. 95% of GTS racers are also BMW CCA or PCA racers that run in stock or prep classes. I ran at the top of GTS2 in an ITS e30 325i, simply by getting the weight down to the minimum for my 155RWHP. I had a blast beating up all those ITS e36 cars for a change.

I just got back from Mid Ohio, we had 35 GTS cars. GTS1 winner...e30 325i (Chuck Badder's old car)
GTS2 1985 Porsche 944. Anyone can win in GTS

[euro]

GTS is awesome. I will be playing in there this summer. I'm off to get my licesnse at The Glen May 8-9

To answer your original post read this (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7182).

Spring rate and camber settings are detailed in the post. I am having great luck with these settings.

[Bill Miller]

Hmmm.

A place for my mythical tarmac rally crossover Golf. Seam welded, fully lightened, MkII Golf with a close-ratio 'box and built ABA 2.0.

The proper gearbox would cost $6K but...

K
[/b]


Hmmm....

I'd go w/ a 9A rather than an ABA (that is, if the rules would allow a motor from a different marque (Audi)). And, I don't know if it's still available or not, but Autotech had a Quaife sequential 6-speed 02A that was 'lightly used' for ~ 1/2 of the normal retail (that's still above $6k though :o ). You should be able to get that car under 2000#!

[JamesB]

Bill the ABA is the mk3/A3 crossflow 8v motor. Much more power potential then a RD counterflow.

[ryotko]

Bill the ABA is the mk3/A3 crossflow 8v motor. Much more power potential then a RD counterflow.
[/b]

More than likely Bill's talking about the old Audi 2L 4, I think it was a 3A, from the 80/90 series cars. This was the 2L motor of choice until the ABA's came along. There was a lot of discussion as to which was better. As I recall the Audi motor has a shorter stroke than the ABA but thay are much harder to find.

-Bob

[euro]

9A is the block found in 90-92 GTi's and GLi's, 2.0 16 Valve

3A found in 4cyl 2 liter audi's from back in the day.

I use a 9A block and crank with Pauter rods and JE Pistons made to work with the 20Valve head on my Corrado

9A block is superior to the ABA block due to its shorter height and the german crank is forged unlike the newer mexican ABA cast cranks



Bill,
Where can I find more information on the contingency program with the GTS Challenge?

[JamesB]

ahhh yes the 3A. fun motor. but the ABA's are a dime a dozen and make the same power

[Bildon]

Bill,
Where can I find more information on the contingency program with the GTS Challenge?
[/b]

http://www.bildon.com/catalog/about/TeamBildon.cfm

http://www.gtschallenge.com/

[msogren]

How does the ABA head work on a 1.8 HT block?? or 9A block? Thanks, MM

[JamesB]

I never tried it. A lot of people are putting 16v heads on the ABA block to drop compression to make a turbo motor.

I would have to poke around the 8v forum on vwvortex.com to know the info.

[Eric Parham]

The biggest difference for setting up FWD is to remember to set it up on the hairy end of loose so it will balance out under power (just the opposite of RWD). That is, more throttle means less oversteer for FWD, while it meant more oversteer for RWD. I'd do it with one of these (which took the place of the 3 rear bars I used to have on my car): http://www.srsvw.com/parts/partdetail.asp?pid=11

[shwah]

Or at least that is one way to set it up. Just seems like a cars with that type of setup might be fast - or crashing. When you set a car up to be on the edge of control the consequences for crossing that edge are significant.

You are likely to find that there as many opinions on the 'right' setup as there are people competing. There are some guys that have been doing things the 'wrong' way for years and have done pretty well. The moral here is go ahead and ask around and get advice, but realize that the setup that works best for you will likely be a bit unique to you and your car.

[Knestis]

To put things in perspective, we've added a lot MORE bar this year on top of Shine's "big one," on the MkIII. It seemed really assey when i took off the front bar and put on that first rear unit.

K

[Bill Miller]

Or at least that is one way to set it up. Just seems like a cars with that type of setup might be fast - or crashing. When you set a car up to be on the edge of control the consequences for crossing that edge are significant.

You are likely to find that there as many opinions on the 'right' setup as there are people competing. There are some guys that have been doing things the 'wrong' way for years and have done pretty well. The moral here is go ahead and ask around and get advice, but realize that the setup that works best for you will likely be a bit unique to you and your car.
[/b]

That's true Chris. I knew a guy that was one of the fast ITC Rabbits at Summit Point, and he ran a front bar on the car.

[67ITB]

Eric,
only one of those SRS bars?

We run 2 of them!!

Matt

[Eric Parham]

Matt, TWO?! Well, um, um, ... hmmm. :birra:

Were the SRS A1 bars all the same rate? I do have pretty stiff springs (650 front, 425 rear). When I tried 400 lb rears, I did have to add a second rear bar (H&H style, don't recall the rate).

On the one hand, I like the idea of running just one rear bar to save unsprung weight. But, on the other hand, it was a lot easier to dial out oversteer for poor conditions when there was an extra one to pull. I guess almost everything's a trade-off!

[psykokid]

How does the ABA head work on a 1.8 HT block?? or 9A block? Thanks, MM
[/b]

aba head works well, since it is a fairly direct bolt on (one oil galley is different in shape on the aba head than on the standard 8v head) plus it has the benefit of removing the intake manifold from directly above the exhaust mani. ABA head (or any 8v head for that matter) on a 9A block will give you something along the lines of 13:1 0r 14:1 compression ratio IIRC..

[RacerBill]

Mark Barr:

Could you please post any impressions you might have on the MidOhio repaving on "Regional Forums, MidWest Central Division, 'Any word on MidOhio repave...'". We are waiting anxiously!!!

Thanks.

[zracer22]

The red n white curbing is ridiculous...tall, steep and you don't want to touch it. The pavement is smooth and grippy. The wet line is the same as the dry line. Lots of mud if you go off....no grass yet. The folks at Mid-O insist that the geometry of the track didn't change, but almost everyone says that the car doesn't get as light as it used to in Turn 11. Look for lap records set in every class this year. Time with the keyhole chicane this year are almost the same as times last year without the chicane.