2006 weight additions illegal per GCR

[GKR_17]

The only method allowed to change the weight of a current IT car is the PCA process.

See GCR 17.1.4.C

Except in rare or extreme circumstances (i.e. BMW E36) the PCA process is fixed after the vehicle has been classed for four years. Furthermore, the rule clearly states that the factor used in the PCA evaluation is "the vehicle's racing performance relative to other vehicles in its class". Not fitting a 'process' isn't justification for any PCA, only on track performance is.

If you agree that this weight addition is illegal, I suggest that you contact the Club Racing Board.

I've said more than enough on this topic already, and most likely won't say any more. For previous discussion on this topic, see the Del Sol thread in the Honda area, starting around post #125.

Grafton

[zracre]

that goes against all the changes they made...and I thought they said on track performance didnt matter??? Hmmmmmm...If 85% of ITA are hondas and a honda wins 85% of the time...

[Andy Bettencourt]

In a category-wide review of performance, and a check on the trending of new car classifications/reclassifications, it was found that while the cars classified using the new process were performing as expected, there were still cars that were dominant and cars that had no chance to compete (given like prep and driver ability).

Instead of using the PCA rule on just a few cars, it was decided that for the overall equity of the classes and the category as a whole (both now and moving forward), PCA changes would be made by using the current classification process by which all new car classifications and reclassifications are measured - on all cars. While most cars were within +/- 100lbs of the new target number, those that were not were indeed submitted for a change, up or down. All in the name of class equity and to form a solid basis for future equity.

The 'process' is not performance based...so the end result is not an individual 'penalty' on certain cars - like it is in Production. It is numbers driven using a bunch of different factors that try to fit as many cars as possible into like performance envelopes. It is applied using the same methodology to all cars.

If you feel this is not in the best interest of the SCCA or IT, I encourage you to send your thoughts to the CRB.

[GKR_17]

Andy,

There you go again saying that all cars have been through the process, though you've already admitted that is not the case.

In ITS alone (before the subjective adders) I see 8 cars that are more than 150 lbs underweight (337 worst example), and 8 more that are more than 300 lbs overweight (449 worst example) compared to what the 'process' says they should be. None of these 16 cars received adjustment. I realize that several could fall in line with adders, but not nearly all. The fact is the 'process' has been implemented selectively, and that is no better than before.

First and foremost, it is in the best interest of the SCCA to follow its own rules. The 'process' could be an improvement on the system, but only if it is applied to every car. Even then, the rules would need to be updated to allow it.

Grafton

[lateapex911]

that goes against all the changes they made...and I thought they said on track performance didnt matter??? Hmmmmmm...If 85% of ITA are hondas and a honda wins 85% of the time...
[/b]
C'mon Evan, IF the class was so comprised, (and it's not)...

Why do you think Hondas...(certain ones) are so well subscribed???

Maybe because the membership chooses to race cars that are known to be stronger than other cars.

As a matter of fact, I've been told dozens of times to stop wasting my time and "Just get a freakin Honda"...

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy,

There you go again saying that all cars have been through the process, though you've already admitted that is not the case.

In ITS alone (before the subjective adders) I see 8 cars that are more than 150 lbs underweight (337 worst example), and 8 more that are more than 300 lbs overweight (449 worst example) compared to what the 'process' says they should be. None of these 16 cars received adjustment. I realize that several could fall in line with adders, but not nearly all. The fact is the 'process' has been implemented selectively, and that is no better than before.

First and foremost, it is in the best interest of the SCCA to follow its own rules. The 'process' could be an improvement on the system, but only if it is applied to every car. Even then, the rules would need to be updated to allow it.

Grafton [/b]

Grafton,

You have to read up on all the topics and all the answers. Maybe the search function would be a good place to start.

All the cars have been looked at through 'process' glasses. Some cars that were out of whack were corrected and some not - the reasoning has been explained to you.

Why don't you list the cars you speak of? I am sure some are out 'spec' but I bet I can tell you why. Show me those 8 overweight cars........

...and I believe I have shown you that the rules do allow for these changes, whether you agree with the preceived 'cingularity' you read in the rules or not. It's about category and class-wide parity. Think forest, not trees.

[Tristan Smith]

that goes against all the changes they made...and I thought they said on track performance didnt matter??? Hmmmmmm...If 85% of ITA are hondas and a honda wins 85% of the time...
[/b]


YES all the Hondas should have more weight added!!!!!!!!!!!! (ha ha)

[JeffYoung]

Personally, I think red white and blue 240s from Atlanta need a few hundred themselves. I mean, they just LOOK too good........

Seriously -- Tristan, you going to Roebling?

[zracre]

C'mon Evan, IF the class was so comprised, (and it's not)...

Why do you think Hondas...(certain ones) are so well subscribed???

Maybe because the membership chooses to race cars that are known to be stronger than other cars.

As a matter of fact, I've been told dozens of times to stop wasting my time and "Just get a freakin Honda"...
[/b]

Awww c'mon guys just having a little fun!!! I just feel like complaining about something!! I just sent my letter off to try and have the weight placement rule into affect sooner than 1/1/07...they are well subscribed because they are cheap, easy to work on and damn fast...perfect candidate for an IT budget racer eh?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Awww c'mon guys just having a little fun!!! I just feel like complaining about something!! I just sent my letter off to try and have the weight placement rule into affect sooner than 1/1/07...they are well subscribed because they are cheap, easy to work on and damn fast...perfect candidate for an IT budget racer eh? [/b]

That's not the ONLY letter you sent!!! :)

[Knestis]

The single best thing to happen to IT since it was conceived and individuals are still going to whine when their own personal competitive interests have to take second place to the good of the category.

Ask me again why I'm so worried about real competition adjustments (bleah) finding their way into this category...

Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, waaaah.

K

[Super Swift]

kk - Why is following the rules a bad idea? You’re a self proclaimed rules nerd. Please, stay true to your self.

ab- Why were the 280zx & 280 2+2 adjusted below “Process” weight?

jg- You seem a little upset that someone feels your car lost 100lbs illegally. Does that make you … grumpy? (He quotes RULES. You call NAMES real mature for a board member.)


g's little brother

[Knestis]

A. Get it right. I'm an ex-NERD.

B. I'm not taking a position on following the rules or not following the rules. I'm simply critical of people who wrap their own little interests in grandiose claims.

I can totally support someone bitching honestly about not wanting the additional poundage: "Fair, not fair, whatever - I'm just pissed because now I'm at a relative disadvantage to other models in my class." But disingenuous, red herring crap like "my car won't be safe," "we have to follow the 'formula'," or "the formula is broken" - depending completely on what furthers one's own competitive position - just gets SO tiresome.

K

[JLawton]

The only method allowed to change the weight of a current IT car is the PCA process.

See GCR 17.1.4.C

Except in rare or extreme circumstances (i.e. BMW E36) the PCA process is fixed after the vehicle has been classed for four years. Furthermore, the rule clearly states that the factor used in the PCA evaluation is "the vehicle's racing performance relative to other vehicles in its class". Not fitting a 'process' isn't justification for any PCA, only on track performance is.

If you agree that this weight addition is illegal, I suggest that you contact the Club Racing Board.

I've said more than enough on this topic already, and most likely won't say any more. For previous discussion on this topic, see the Del Sol thread in the Honda area, starting around post #125.

Grafton
[/b]


Yup, just another whiney BMW driver. If it's so bad, why don't you go race with the BMW Club??

[lateapex911]

jg- You seem a little upset that someone feels your car lost 100lbs illegally. Does that make you … grumpy? (He quotes RULES. You call NAMES real mature for a board member.)
g's little brother
[/b]

First, if I've called anyone names, I apologise, but I would like you to show me the quote.

Second, I'm not at all upset that he's after my 100 pounds at all! becuase, if you read the title of the thread, and comments in his post, he's upset about weight additions.

If you agree that this weight addition is illegal, I suggest that you contact the Club Racing Board.[/b]
So that leaves me out pretty much.

Third, the definition of rare plays into this, and Andy has been discussing how the process is used to determine the correct weight. As a board member I prefer to look at the numbers, and use careful evaluations of track performace as additional information.

The ITAC folds a lot of information into long discussions about the weight setting of cars, and we've been pretty forhtright in our explanations. But of course, there is no way for everyone to know every sentence that is uttered over a 5 or 6 hour 9 person conference call. Racing performance is of course, discussed.

Were there mistakes along the way?? Probably?
Should the entire process be nullified? I think that's a little extreme.

If there are issues, why not focus on just the issue, rahter than a legal attack attempting to undo the entire process?

[gran racing]

I'll admit, if I were an owner of a car I'd be pretty pissed off. Those bastards! I get that.

But going along with K (in his underweight car :D See! I do get it) said, there are reasons for car to and not to have weight added. This board has done an awesome job.

Since I know them the best, take a look at ITA & ITB. There are many models / makes that could win on any given day. How freakn' cool is that?! And then to have board members actually respond to me whine about how a car was classed, and even give their rationale for it? No more BS one liner "not guaranteed to be competitive even though you are right (or wrong), but we won't take the time to provide you a real reason since its much easier this way".

The Integras are still crazy fast! Just because we can't call ITA spec Integra/CRX anymore isn't such a bad thing from an outsiders viewpoint.

[Geo]

A. Get it right. I'm an ex-NERD.
[/b]

I'm not so sure Kirk.

You see, there are rules nerds who focus on what you CAN'T do.

Then there are rules nerds who focus on what you CAN.

[zracre]

That's not the ONLY letter you sent!!! :)
[/b]

Nope it isnt...I whine on here and to the authorities... B) just voicing my opinion. There are some things I think are off and I am not the type to keep it to myself.

[Andy Bettencourt]

ab- Why were the 280zx & 280 2+2 adjusted below "Process" weight?

g's little brother [/b]

How do you figure?



There are some things I think are off and I am not the type to keep it to myself. [/b]
And that is the way it SHOULD be. :happy204:

[Fastfred92]

Evan
Don't feel bad, they (CRB) get so many emails from me that they have a special form letter reply just for me! And I think they put my email on a blocked sender list :P

[Tristan Smith]

Personally, I think red white and blue 240s from Atlanta need a few hundred themselves. I mean, they just LOOK too good........

Seriously -- Tristan, you going to Roebling?
[/b]

Hey they added a hundred pounds to my car!!

My racing is going to be limited this year. Kathy and I bought a house about 6 months ago that is going to need a huge remodeling. So my money and time will be going into that project. I will be going to Kershaw for the Monster Memorial, and I'll do the July RA race. But thats about it.
Some of you might remember my old ITB Datsun 200sx that I use to race. Well I brought that out to Barber last weekend for the SVRA IMSA RS Challenge Reunion. It was a lot of fun. Anybody who has an old 70's car that ran in that series needs to bring it out next year. A lot of fun and a where else can you see an AMC Spirit (besides Ed Forrest) race?

[e36its]

Yup, just another whiney BMW driver. If it's so bad, why don't you go race with the BMW Club??[/b]
Jeff --

Moving forward, will all comments on policy or rules be met with an encouragement to leave the SCCA or just those from BMW owners? Just wondering what I can expect. I'm not weighing in on the merits of Grafton's commentary either way, but dismissing him out of hand for the marque seems just like something a Saturn driver would do.

tom
(a bit serious, mostly kidding)

[JLawton]

Jeff --

Moving forward, will all comments on policy or rules be met with an encouragement to leave the SCCA or just those from BMW owners? Just wondering what I can expect. I'm not weighing in on the merits of Grafton's commentary either way, but dismissing him out of hand for the marque seems just like something a Saturn driver would do.

tom
(a bit serious, mostly kidding)
[/b]

Arrrrgggg,I hate it when other people are right!!

One of the many flaws of mine, generalizing before I wait 10 seconds!!

I was just a little surprised that someone could possibly be a year late to this argument!!

From the snotty Saturn Driver :P

[lateapex911]

....I was just a little surprised that someone could possibly be a year late to this argument!!

From the snotty Saturn Driver :P
[/b]

That's funny...

We got a letter from a competitor (In IT) that had a car that was at the VERY front of a very competitive IT race at the ARRC. He wrote that he had spent well over $30K on the car, and that it CLEARLY wasn't in need of weight, and HOW DARE us add weight, and how did this come to happen and on and on. He went so far as to say his car was worth only 1/8 of what it cost to build it. (I sent a check for $4500, but so far, no car has been delivered, and my check even included a little more than the 1/8 he says it's worth, LOL)

I read the letter and my eyebrows went up, and knowing the guy, knowing the people around him, knowing he has a son of internet age, and knowing that he's been actively racing for years now, I thought, "How can he be remotely serious?? Where has he been??"

It's not like the subject wasn't mentioned as official requests for input in Sportscar, or he doesn't know anyone in the biz, or that the internet is brand spanking new. Punch in "Improved Touring" into google (anyone heard of google??) and poof! There you go! A direct line INTO the minds of the rulesmakers!

What was even funnier, is that his car was one of two "poster cars" that showed the flaws in the system, if any cars were going to get a bit of attention, his was one.

[orlando_wrx]

Can't we all just get along? :D
People have been trying to get the MR2 pushed down to ITB for quite a while now, but I'm glad it's in ITA.
As I will soon be completing my first IT car (shared with Scott Branham); I'm looking forward to having a BIG challenge ahead of me. Even if I run at the back of the pack all day long, I'm gonna be out there having fun. I look forward to running with all the drivers/cars that are faster than me, just don't hit my rear bumper too hard as you lap by me :D

I guess my point is, don't be afraid of a challenge...what's a little weight to those of you on top of your game?


(please don't flame me for that comment, I'm just here to play devil's advocate)

[ITA_CRX]

Is there a limit to how much weight can be added to a car?

Or how often a weight adjustment can be made to a car?

[lateapex911]

Can't we all just get along? :D
People have been trying to get the MR2 pushed down to ITB for quite a while now, but I'm glad it's in ITA.
As I will soon be completing my first IT car (shared with Scott Branham); I'm looking forward to having a BIG challenge ahead of me. Even if I run at the back of the pack all day long, I'm gonna be out there having fun. I look forward to running with all the drivers/cars that are faster than me, just don't hit my rear bumper too hard as you lap by me :D

I guess my point is, don't be afraid of a challenge...what's a little weight to those of you on top of your game?
(please don't flame me for that comment, I'm just here to play devil's advocate)
[/b]


Interesting. Just curious, but why are you happy to be in A still? Lots of comments were saying the car would be better in B, and lots of commenters were saying a car like that didn't belong in B....still more objected to having to find 12 wheels.

Secondly, are you attempting to make min weight, and if so, how is it going?