Pocono PDX - call for instructors - June 16-17

[emwavey]

Pocono PDX - call for instructors
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The SCCA's Tri-Region race group is holding a Performance Driving eXperience (PDX) at Pocono on the long, or national, course on Friday, June 16th and Saturday the 17th. We are expecting a pretty good turn-out of "novices" and will need quite a few instructors.

There are several events going on around the NEDiv that weekend, but if you hold at least a regional license you are welcome to join as an instructor for one or both days if possible. It's a plus if you have previous experience as an instructor, too.

There is no charge for instructors, coffee & danish stuff in the morning, lunch both days, and a dinner friday night are included.

Bring your favorite track car too (street cars, and coupe/sedan race types that fit into IT and the T categories), for some "instructor only" time.

The idea is to provide an instructor for each novice driver, and any intermediate that requests one. So if you are free that weekend please consider attending and spreading the SCCA bug.

You must register as an instructor, you won't be allowed to just show up and claim the instructor status.

http://www.triregionracing.org...n.pdf and fill in the info, but just write Instructor in the track experience section.

If you have any further questions feel free to contact me, or the registrar directly.

[jimmy p]

Dave,
What course / configuration(s) will be used this year?
Thanks
Jimmy p

EDIT - Derrrr I just re-read and saw the long course.
Meaning Clockwise using North infield and NASCAR 1?

I assume then same as last year?
This is a horrible teaching configuration.
If its driver ed they want to provide, why not use one (or all three) road course(s) where we can actually provide some meaningful instruction on (any of the three road courses)?
That "long course" is just alot of floorboard holding, broken up by small amounts of steering.

Dont know why they insist on this configuration.
In that long course, the student gets ~maybe 8 looks at each corner a session?
On the North, South, or East (the best one for instruction) courses they might get almost 20 looks at each corner per 30 minute session.
East course is 11 turns in approx 1.3 miles. Just about every single type of turn is represented there.

I brought this up a while back over at the PHA site.
I would propose use all three courses, hold a TT on North, DE on the East, FULL novices on the South.
On the second day, reverse direction (well not on the North),,, or switch groups on the tracks.
Just one instructor's opinion.

Thx
jimmy p.

[emwavey]

There are definitely pros and cons to any of the four courses at Pocono. I was right there with you last year when they mentioned the idea of running the long course, but I'm not really on the decision making committee. In fact I'm really just helping to promote the event and offered to instruct, so my comments are just a personal opinion about why...

From strictly a driver's perspective, I love the East Course (not racing). It is like a large autocross course, and as long as there isn't much traffic, it's an absolute blast to drive. However, WHEN you encounter traffic at the East Course, it is very difficult to allow a safe pass in the short passing area there. One major reason the East Course was not considered primarily for the number of people we were expecting... it would be too crowded!

The South Course, well I'm just not a big fan of this course in general. It's kind of a snoozer, so I could really care less about this course.

The North Course is probably the best course to run a DE on since it has some really good turns and there is passing room, but we have the whole track to use, and we can not sublet out. I can't remember why though.

Using multiple courses was definitely something I was interested in seeing happen. However the major issue with trying to control more then one course is obviously a staffing issue. Grid, flaggers, EMTs, etc. Not only is it difficult to find enough qualified flaggers for the event, but since there are other activities in the area that weekend: NER's June Regional at Lime Rock Park, SCR June National, at Beaverun, plus there are some other local autocross events which is another pool for volunteers.

The Long course was decided upon since it's pretty much like the North Course, but it has more area, so if nothing else, it's not crowded at all. And WHEN you do encounter traffic, there is plenty of room to allow folks to pass. This is a big plus from both a driver's standpoint and an instructor's standpoint both in safety and in quality of time on track. I instructed last year at the South Course, and reigning in the student I had was difficult enough, having to also deal with lot's o' traffic was even more difficult since there were so many cars... "give yourself some space, plan your pass, try this, OK, how 'bout pitting in so we can discuss why you went off there..."

Honestly, after having instructed last year at the Long Course, I had to admit, it was a blast to drive on, and I found it to be rather safe from an instructor's standpoint. Traffic was easy to deal with, and for both the agressive and passive students, there was much less pressure, since there was plenty of space.

So I have to respectfully disagree with you that the Long Course is "horrible", though, again, I thought the same way you do, before I actually instructed there.

The other plus for attracting qualified instructors was being able to provide FREE track time on a course that SCCA racers would be running on.

PS. I would still love to see a time when we can use two or three courses at the same time... it really does become more of a logistic problem to solve then anything else.


So, back on topic, are you interesting in helping, either as an instructor or as a worker?

[jimmy p]

Thanks for the reply Dave.
I figured you were not on the decsion committe, just posting to rally instructors.
Mainly just stirring conversation.

On topic,,, I dont know"yet".
With my work I travel between 200 - 250 days a year, so I am never sure when exactly I will be home until a little closer to each event.
I know more about my availability probably closer to a month out, thats when my work schedule becomes more firm (about 1 month from when they happen).
So at that time I always correspond with the various head instructors and see what they need.

Off topic,
I do agree,,, there is alot of s-p-a-c-e on that long course.
Plenty of time for setting up passes etc., but I guess we will have to agree to disagree on its usefullness and fun to drive factor. I find it to be a serious yawner.
Dont get me wrong, a day on track is better than "any" day off track, but I have seen clubs put alot of cars on the various road courses at Pocono.
I dont know what numbers we did at last years PDX, but I have instructed at the small road course events with more cars than we had on the single long course. Like sold out BMWCCA / EMRA / PDA events.

Being pretty local to Pocono, I instruct with pretty much anyone who drives at Pocono (BMWCCA, EMRA, PDA, NASA, Ferarri club, a few others I am missing).
I have never had a problem with congestion and passing on the individual road courses.
The East course (as you know) has more passing zones that any of the others.
You can pass on the NASCAR straight, Into the hairpin, 1 car at exit of hairpin and 1 on car pit straight.
If the admin handles it well it flows like a dream.

North is a decent track, faster, easier to learn, less turns (but less interesting).
South I agree is a bit of a yawner, but VERY easy for 1st timers getting their feet wet.
Very short (1 mile), means lots of looks at each corner per session (reps are great for teaching) few turns (all pretty easy) big wide passing zone on NASCAR 1. I like teaching newbies on there (as long as you keep them reigned in on the banking).

Thats just my take though.
I will pass on my info to Tri Region if I can do it a little closer to the event and I can instruct.

I wish they would at least consider double infields (with the south hairpin, not the Yump).
That would be more interesting than that long course.
Cheers
jimmy p.

[turboICE]

There is another configuration that hasn't been mentioned and that is the double infield long.

I asked about the SCCA Long race configuration use last year and was told "that is the one we are familar with".

I agree east course has potential for being a good DE course - but it limits run group size and also can be of lesser appeal to someone who comes for some openit up time. Yes it is meant to be educational but if it doesn't appeal to the open speed factor of some they won't come for the education.

Something else about having the ability to get up to some speed is that it is as educational going onto and leaving fast sections as it is momentum sections - different education but still educational.

I think the double infield long configuration offers plenty of opening it up opportunities for fast turn opportunities and plenty of momementum turn opportunities as well.

The SCCA Long race configuration I do think is the least desirable though for the reasons listed too much of the lap is a test of the car acceleration/speed not the driver.

[emwavey]

Thanks for stirring the pot. I can appreciate that. :)


Yes it is meant to be educational but if it doesn't appeal to the open speed factor of some they won't come for the education.[/b]

Exactly, the long course does allow for folks to push down the go-pedal and get it out of their system before the in-field.

However if it wasn't for the busstop to at least throw in another set of turns, I'd be right there with you for another configuration. Keep in mind too, that this PDX thing is primarily geared toward attracting novices. Plus for those who actually race on the Long Course as instructors they have the benefit of some extra seat time. With any track, it's the little corrections, and 1/10ths that require time to pick up. Also for Novices there are two interesting lessons to be had off of the long straights. Turn one is a lesson in carrying speed, whereas the busstop can offer quite a few different lessons. Braking distance, entry vs. exit speed and how that translates all the way around to Turn one, throwing the car into a set of slower turns, plus an interesting area to experiment with late apexing, etc. Because it's an isolated set of turns, it's easy for a Novice to prepare for. Would I rather teach on the East Course, sure, and would I rather drive the east course, uhm, yep.

Has there ever been a time, or is it even a possibility, to use the East Course with the long course. Perhaps this wouldn't be an ideal track for a DE either, but after having done the Grand Course at VIR, I'm kind of jonesin' for something with Lots o' turns.

The long course might not be ideal, but without enough support staff for the extra corners the point is moot.

:dead_horse: (just wanted an excuse to use this emoticon)

[turboICE]

I don't think the merges on the east course would incorporate well with a long course from my recollection, east course is where I have the least track time. It is a good educational course.

While I can see the point of face time with turns (# of turns per session), first timers on track really do benefit for the breathing room from one educational experience (turn or set of turns) to another educational experience - ie the straights.

BTW there is no reason not to add another PDX day at a different time on the east course when the north and south courses are in use by other groups. I wouldn't mind more time on it, but most of the time the east course is being used by motorcycles and I am with a group on the south course and one of the arrive and drive schools is using the north course.

Its all good, pot stirred.

[jimmy p]

Good discussion.
While we are tearing Dave's thread off topic...
Ed, I think perception is part of the problem with the East course.
Most people (and clubs) have never run it, they look at it and assume its slow.
My terminal speed at the end of the NASCAR straight going into the East infield portion is only 5-ish MPH off my terminal speed at the end of the NASCAR straight on the North course.
Its plenty fast enough.

I agree, it would be kind of weird incorporating the East infeild into a long course event, but hey,,, I'd sure be open to it.

I'm at just over 100 track days at Pocono.
I have driven every course and configuration at pocono imaginable,,, all of them in both directions (except the North - CW only always).
By far the most misunderstood is the East course.
I believe its by far the best kept secret in the Northeast. I'd rather drive the East course than Lime Rock.
I think alot of it's lost perception has to do with the motorcycle clubs grab up every avail they can because its far more intseresting to them than the others. Thus it gets classified as the "motorcycle course".
I think its a great momentum track. You really have to disect the line correctly to carry momentum. Otherwise it turns into a point and shoot track, which takes all the fun out of it (which may be why alot of people say its slow).

Maybe its just my instructing preference, but I'd rather have a student get alot of whacks at a corner per session (and day) than have long straights to chat. We can download after the session.
For me there is nothing like reps, lots of reps (and looks) at each "event area" be it a corner entry, track out or a brake zone. Thats the "only" downside of instructing at the Glen. Its sheer size and how many laps you get a session / day. That to me is the one (and only) big upside of running novices on the South course (as I posted above) well other than its one of the few places in the Northeast you can learn driving on banking...

Plus,,, and again this is just my personal preference,,, the Long course as it will be used for this PDX (and is used by SCCA) runs the North infield "backwards". To me in that direction its very "clunky".
I really feel it flows much better in the other direction. So to me, in this config, the only real infield part you get, is really choppy. The exit back onto the Tunnel Turn is just awful.

All the other courses run pretty well CW and CCW.
My times on the East course are with .5 sec in either direction.
South is similar, but its a little slower CW than CCW.

I totally agree with your previous post though, they should "at minnimum" be looking at Double Infields, vs the long course using NASCAR 1. Actually if it "had" to be a long version,,, my wish,,, I'd prefer double infields Counter Clockwise "with" the South hairpin. Thats a good course.

Good discussion,,, I am somewhat surprised by the fact that you guys seem to accept the long "National" course so easily. Its the one configuration I can honestly say I kind of hate.

Cheers
jimmy p.

[Matt Rowe]

Good discussion,,, I am somewhat surprised by the fact that you guys seem to accept the long "National" course so easily. Its the one configuration I can honestly say I kind of hate.
[/b]

It has been a good discussion and to one extent or another I agree with what has been said . . . except for Jimmy's last comment. :P

As one of the officials of last years event and this years I can tell you the decision of which course to use was hashed out over many discussions last year and was reviewed in depth again this year. It is a compromise between safety, cost, marketing, staffing and a number of other concerns, but then again most events make those same compromises in one form or another. I can also say that the choice of courses is likely to continue to be reviewed each year as the event evolves and these opinions will be taken into account.

One last point, while long flat out periods are boring for experienced racers and some students, they also provide a nice time to "collect oneself" for others.

Now back to :dead_horse:

[turboICE]

I'd prefer double infields Counter Clockwise "with" the South hairpin. Thats a good course.

Good discussion,,, I am somewhat surprised by the fact that you guys seem to accept the long "National" course so easily. Its the one configuration I can honestly say I kind of hate.[/b]

Exactly.

I do think East course is a great course and a lot is there to be learned from it especially momentum (it can be driven fast but not usually by novices), I do know some first timers get a little overwhelmed on east course because a lot is coming at you at once for the first time on track.

More importantly than constructive critiques of course selection is that I am glad SCCA is having these PDX and that Tri-state jumped on it early and is continuing them. Good call! Any chance of adding a second one each year in the future? How was attendance last year?

[emwavey]

I think if 'we' were to do a one day, perhaps if and when another date is added to the "pdx" schedule, then yeah I'm all for the East Course. Coming from an autocross background, I absolutely love this course because it's so busy. There's a little breathing room here and there, but it really forces a driver to connect corners.

Part of the reason I'm accepting the Long Course so easily is primarily for the greater good of holding PDXes in the first place. Like someone said, a crappy course is better then no course. :)

During one of the last instructor sessions, I had the priviledge of taking a corner worker out for a ride. It was his first ride on a road course even though he'd been flagging for a few years. I asked him to let me know occasionally with a thumbs up or down about the speed I was driving around the course. After the ride he was all smiles... even on this "crappy" course.

Frankly, novices don't care about the course, they just want a date and a place to drive.

Where would I want to drive? I think you know. :)

[turboICE]

By no means is it crappy and never meant that at all, just another discussion waiting to get back on any course. And since the new engine is in and running, that will hopefully be next weekend on Shenandoah.