Any e36 318's being built for ITA???

[Fastfred92]

Andy B. needs some BMW comp in ITA, anyone know if any e36 318's are being built?

[Doc Bro]

Even worse he's got a couple of Z3's to hold him up when lapping!!

R

[Fastfred92]

I may be dumb but I think the cars have a chance in ITA at 2600 lbs...... Love to know if anybody is building one.

Rob, any source for a good header for these cars ??

[Andy Bettencourt]

Fred,

I have been peripherally trying to help Rob with his development (searching for suppliers, etc) and it seems we have come up real short on go-fast stuff for these 1.9's.

I think they could be good too but they may have to be all one-offs like Greg's NX effort.

AB

[Fastfred92]

See Andy, everyone has it out for the BMW guys :D even vendors......... It is a shame that M42 / M44 engine stuff is so rare, I think they raced these motors in europe a few years back but all my internet search comes up with nothing........... except some cool neon carbon chrome dress up stuff! This seems like a uphill battle and I like it.

[snowmann]

We have a e30 318 that is was raced twice last year with decent results from a 130k mile motor...

In terms of go-fast goodies a lot of stuff from the m50s and euro s50s swaps in however it is all illegal stuff... (i.e. solid lifters valve train goodies pistons rods, and cranks from diesel 320s yeild a 2.1 displacement i believe)

BMW did race these in e36 320 touring cars in the early 90s after the s14 m3 engine was no longer. They were getting around 320hp or something to that tune but everything was obviously bmw backed...

Go fast goodies I think will come in the form of one off pieces as well as proper FI tuning... I know of cars with simple readily available bolt ons putting down well above BMWs listed hp rating...

for the serp belt cars, underdrive pulleys are available, for the vbelt cars a custom set must be made... Cam timing is adjustable and can produce some power with intake adjustments...

other than that getting the chassis right and suspension components to the extent of IT rules is where your time should be spent.

[snowmann]

On another note, not sure about the e36 variant, but the e30s had a very nice stainless header from the factory, not a cast type manifold. Thats one option I suppose if you guys dont have that header piece on the e36 chassis... Its actually sized appropriatly as well from my math...

Supposedly the other big problem is the harmonic balancer, but im thinking its more internet wives tale type of stuff as opposed to truth. Its a rubber unit and is one of the major problems when revving past 7200... Conforti has SUPPOSEDLY had these come apart when doing chip tuning, but too many variables like was it an old weather checked unit to begin with etc...

The hydraulic valve train is a bit of another problem past 7200rpm... however a lot of your off the shelf chips (the JC and the EAT) chip limit revs at 7200.

Tearing one down thinking your going to find all kinds of things BMW missed is another problem... these are built extremmely well, all ports are matched, everything is already extremmely close in terms of balancing, and on my mentioned 130k street driven car the bearings were just breaking into the factory tolerance! rings were also at factory spec and the damn cylinder walls still had the factory cross hatching

A few names I can drop are GT-tecknic and Rebello, GT-tecknic was building a full tilt GT2-3??? entry with the m42 powerplant, however as said full tilt with custom FI and/or carbs, custom custom custom was the key on that motor... Ive emailed them a few times but they have never gotten back to me...

There is also another place in Holland that has built the S42 variant which is the race m42 with a 2.0 liter capacity... They sell a lot of custom pieces that they build however I priced one of their harmonic balancers and a standard version was something to the tune of 800 bucks, (not including shipping from holland) and a lightweight version was in the 13-1400 range... So while they probabaly know what they're doing they're going to be spendy parts... (and as already mentioned mostly IT ILLEGAL)

[Fastfred92]

Snowman

Any websites / links to the folks in Holland ?

[snowmann]

Kempower (http://www.kempower.be/)

[JeffYoung]

Fred, Mark Whight (a member of RTP racing) has put some thought into building one of these. Not sure if he started tracking down parts, but you might want to talk to him.

PM me and I'll send you his work number.

Jeff

[Doc Bro]

As I reread this thread I realized I hadn't posted any of my experiences with my most recent development process.

Fred, the stock Z3/318 header is pretty darn good. We have been working with a fabricator/dyno shop and have done a protoype header. We covered every base....even did some math!!! Results...initially a loss of about 10hp!!!

Amazing!! Fact of the matter is the BMW engineers did a pretty darn good job on these little motors.

We've since done some changing and reconfiguring. Results....no hp gains yet. We have brought the hp back to where it was with the stock header but cannot find anymore. The motor seems to like back pressure. It doesn't respond at all to breathing better. Unfortunately the header effort has been a confirmation of suspicion mission and not a hp gainer. It's at the coater as we speak....we'll see. We're hoping that the adaptive memory of the ECU will show some gains once the car has some hard runs on it.
We'll be dynoing it again after NHIS in April. I'll keep you posted.


R

[Fastfred92]

Rob, Thanks keep us posted.... I kinda suspected the OEM stuff was good off the shelf but wonder if the Z3 or e30 header was any better than the e36 part. Also looking for advice on chip burning. Anybody with and experience with the Supersprint header ?

[Doc Bro]

Fred, The supersprint is IIRC $1200. Go custom not much more money and there "may be" some tq gains (not sure how much if any) plus the supersprint is not coated. The ECU thing....ahhh...it's a flash ECU. What that means is the software is injected not chipped. What we need is either MOTEC or a code cracker to rewrite the software based on dyno mapping. If you disable the EWS (BMW antitheft) then you could have a couple of ECU's available for different ambient conditions. The EWS prevents the car from starting if the ECU and the key do not match. I have spare ECU's but I can't use them at this time. I've heard the EWS is easy to disable and I've also heard it is hard, so I haven't ventured there yet.

Some one had suggested converting it to OBD 1 , which I don't know if it is IT legal or not, but it would make some things easier I suspect. BMW does some interesting things with the electrical sytem so I don't know what the expectations/limitations of the swap would be. (for instance the on board computer for gas milage, trip distance, etc. is a hub for the wheel speed TCS so you can't just rip it out without going into limp mode). We spent half of last season in limp mode without knowing why. How fun is shifting at 5200 rpm?

The car has nice even hp and tq curves which is real nice. I think it may be still a little heavy given its increase potential. The car has one-off written all over it. If you like an oddball you'll LOVE this car.

R

Also, the e36 318 is the same car as the Z3 . The 318ti is identical just different body panels. If it mattters.

[Andy Bettencourt]

As a test, how about the OEM header, extrude honed and then an ID and OD coating?

That would an interesting comparision during a dyno day.

[Doc Bro]

As a test, how about the OEM header, extrude honed and then an ID and OD coating?

That would an interesting comparision during a dyno day.
[/b]


Explain the extrude honing process and if possible where to get it done, please. I'm up for the test Andy. I'll provide the header and dyno time. You provide the extrude honing and coating. :P

Also, what are advantages to internal coating?

R

[JamesB]

extrude honeing they blow a an abrasive material through the part to smooth out the surface. The internal and external coatings help with scavaging and keeping heat out of the engine compartment.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Explain the extrude honing process and if possible where to get it done, please. I'm up for the test Andy. I'll provide the header and dyno time. You provide the extrude honing and coating. :P

Also, what are advantages to internal coating?

R [/b]

It's basically 'abrasive flow machining'.

http://www.extrudehone.com/image_load/afm_full/micro_passage.jpg

Look here for more info:

http://www.gethoned.com/news/headers.php

The purpose of coating is two-fold as I know it. 1. to reduce underhood temps and 2. to keep the exhaust gasses as hot as possible while they exit through the exhaust. This 'scavenging' is reduced as gasses cool. So an ID and an OD coating provide maximum heat retention of the gasses while providing the lowest underhood temps.

AB

[Fastfred92]

I am leaning towards a 94-95 e36 318i / is, reason being it is less electronic crap ( EWS, trac control etc. ), OBD I and convert from OBD II to I would be illegal with a Z3, the 318ti has a crappy rear suspension setup and slightly less favorable f/r weight. I think the 318is would be ideal, it has decent aero, cheap body panels, the 325's brakes and suspension, and is well supported with aftermarket goodies (chassis wise), and if a map can be created for the FI it would be a little less hassle with OBD I which should still be a early motronic chip. Andy's suggestion of OEM header extrude honed and coated sounds interesting but my guess is more to be gained by simple cat delete and free flow pipe to a simple race muffler to keep a touch of back pressure. I wil post at BF to see if anybody has any experience with supersprint on a M42 / 44 and will keep IT.com posted.

[snowmann]

whoa, I wouldnt go as far to say a 318ti is the same w/ different body panels, the ti's are essentially e30s with 5 lug... They have the same rear trailing arm components which are nothing like those of the e36 models... yea you OBD deuce guys are screwed but as far as OBDI cars EAT and conforti are the only chip sources I would use personally, EAT however is a little more, not sure quite how to say it, but 'homebrewed' technology if you will, but he gets his stuff right on the money... And will burn custom chips

Im not so sure that the extrude honing process would be beneficial on a tubular header piece?

Or are there cast units on the e36 318 models? IIRC my 94 318is has a tubular style header though but havent really paid much attention as its just a street car

[nlevine]

We covered every base....even did some math!!! Results...initially a loss of about 10hp!!!
...
Unfortunately the header effort has been a confirmation of suspicion mission and not a hp gainer. It's at the coater as we speak....we'll see.
[/b]


I guess I can save some money on custom exhaust work, then :D

As for ECU programming, Dinan does have some downloadable software for the M44, but you have to got to a Dinan authorized shop to get it installed. I'm thinking about it, but mostly to give me a few hundred extra RPM before the rev limiter kicks in. With the gears I've got (3.64:1), I think that will help me avoid a couple of shifts (or at least move them to more convenient places). Besides, I think showing up to my local BMW dealer (and Dinan authorized shop) with a race car could be fun!

-noam (finally, it's almost getting warm enough to get into the garage and actually work on the car)

[Fastfred92]

whoa, I wouldnt go as far to say a 318ti is the same w/ different body panels, the ti's are essentially e30s with 5 lug... They have the same rear trailing arm components which are nothing like those of the e36 models... [/b]

No I ruled out the 318ti for same reasons, it has a e36 front suspension but a rear e30 style and very short overhang in the rear.


The e36 318is uses the same tubular header as the Z3 ( or very similar in appearance )


Any website for EAT ??

[Doc Bro]

No I ruled out the 318ti for same reasons, it has a e36 front suspension but a rear e30 style and very short overhang in the rear.
The e36 318is uses the same tubular header as the Z3 ( or very similar in appearance )
Any website for EAT ??
[/b]


That's exactly what I meant. The Z3 has an e30 rear suspension set-up. Which is much less desirable than the e36 trailing arm set-up.

Fred, there is currently a 318 ti race car for sale on ebay for 11,500. It has a nice cage. Maybe it'll get you motivated!

I've said if I ball up the Z3 I'll be looking for a 95 (OBD 1) 318 is.

R

[Z3_GoCar]

No I ruled out the 318ti for same reasons, it has a e36 front suspension but a rear e30 style and very short overhang in the rear.
The e36 318is uses the same tubular header as the Z3 ( or very similar in appearance )
Any website for EAT ??
[/b]

That's right, not all e-36's used multi-link on the rear, the 318ti and Z3 both use trailing arms. Another advantage for the 318i is the longer wheel base, 105 inches if I recall correctly. Around here the tracks are high speed with no really slow speed corners.

Neither the M42 nor the M44 have a vanos system, the M44 does have a multi-length intake manifold that you can't take apart and port match in the middle. Best thing you can do is add a motec type system and remove the traction control butterfly between the MAF and the throttle body. Has anyone figured out a way to zero lash the lifters? or given the red line they probably already have a piddle valve. Also I doubt there's a stock piston larger than 0.01 over, most that I've seen are the Max-sil coated one that I doubt are legel. Swirl pollish the valve with new valve springs. I'd install a baffel kit in the oil pan and run an accusump too. Still I doubt any major gain in hp or torque will be found. You can get lots of really good suspension components. Come to think of it Korman built an M-44 for somone in Latin America. Also you'd want toget the proper rear ratio depending on you max trap speed, I'd go with something as high as 3.96 or 4.12, otherwise you'll probably never use 5th gear.

James

[Fastfred92]

James, I was thinking of a factory 3:91 limited slip to start with and thinking the low tq # and relative wide tire allowed would limit wheelspin. I also think accusump might be needed but would start with a baffle, I guess that will need to be a home brew pan as I have not seen any.

Question for Andy B. what are the chances we would get the 96-97 cars on the same line, specs are almost identical but the 96-97 318's use the M44 1.9 ???? Also I remember the sport pkg cars having 16" wheels and being almost more common than the 15" wheel cars, would the CRB consider 16" wheels for the e36 318i / is cars?? I also notice the 95 cars not listed but they should be listed with the 92-94 cars, same line.

[snowmann]

We had a 4.10, now in to a 4.27, that is at BH farms however, which is relatively short...

5th gear on the e36 trans I believe is 1:1... however in our e30 its overdrive... the e36 box has tighter gears IIRC

http://www3.sympatico.ca/mdsylva/products.htm

like I said kind of a do-it-yourselfer, but in the e30 community he is highly praised and his stuff has been checked by end-users proving his advertised results...

Hes definatly slow on the email respones almost to the point where you would think the whole thing is a sham... but I think he does this as a side job...

The e36 and e30 front suspensions are so similar that many people swap in the e36 front struts and CA's to go to 5 lug... so thats pretty much standard between the two cars... but I believe the e36 CA's in the e30 location create a caster heavy car... many people run different CAB's to combat that...

Back to my previous question, can the extrude hone process improve a tubular style header? I know the basic process but never got real knowledgable on the issue... I wouldn't think that a improvement could be made in comparison to like a cast part that is extremmely porous..

also gt-technic sells a dry sump but cant remember if thats IT legal either...

http://www.gttechnic.com/catalog.html

[Fastfred92]

Sno

I think extrude hone on a tube header will be less benefit than a cast unit, but coating would be a big help. I am researching OEM headers now to determine if any difference in e30 or e36 or Z3...

[snowmann]

The ETK shows that up to 96 all cars used one style of header, then after they used another style, might have to something with OBDII conversion...

The only difference I can see via the ETK is that the check ports on the old style are on each primary right off the head, the 96 and newer model has 1 or 2 check ports by the collector area...

[Fastfred92]

I have got my junkyard guy looking for several different headers ( e30, Z3, late e36 ) to compare.

[Doc Bro]

Fred,
If you are looking to purchase a Z3 header I have two of them in great shape (one 12K mi the other 30K mi). Just so you know.

R

[Fastfred92]

Rob,

turns out the e30 / e36 / z3 headers are all about the same, different when OBD II kicks in but does not appear there is any design differences, just part#'s. On a funny note eBay has a header for m42 / m44 cars for $199.00 does not say but I bet atleast 20 hp to be had with one of those babies :rolleyes:

[Doc Bro]

Rob,

turns out the e30 / e36 / z3 headers are all about the same, different when OBD II kicks in but does not appear there is any design differences, just part#'s. On a funny note eBay has a header for m42 / m44 cars for $199.00 does not say but I bet atleast 20 hp to be had with one of those babies :rolleyes:
[/b]


Nice try Fred it's more like 50hp....... :P

R

[Fastfred92]

Whats even more funny is that I would be inclined to buy one ( eBay header ) at $199 just for kicks on a dyno day !!!

[Doc Bro]

Whats even more funny is that I would be inclined to buy one ( eBay header ) at $199 just for kicks on a dyno day !!!
[/b]


I've thought of that but I need the 200 for so many other things right now. But it is interesting.

R

[backformore]

I could find this info, but it is easier to post and ask. Someone mentioned 2600 lbs. Did the weight change from the 2840 the GCR shows? If so, hmmmm.......

[Fastfred92]

Backformore, it sure did change with the "great IT realignment of 06" I think you can find the actual change in Fastrack Feb addendum at: http://www.scca.org/_FileLibrary/File/06-2...ck-addendum.pdf (http://www.scca.org/_FileLibrary/File/06-2-fastrack-addendum.pdf)

Problem is with anything other than the magical 180 lbs driver I am not sure you can get all the way down to that but I may be wrong.....

[backformore]

Well, I'm a magical 200 lb driver, so maybe I'd be able to come close. As much as anything, at 2840 lbs, the car was going to be hell on tires, brakes, etc.

Like I said, hmmm....

[Fastfred92]

Backformore, I said Hmm.. too! I think this would be a good car with class leading brakes and as good of a chassis as any but still have some concerns in the engine department. I still think, when developed, the Miata 1.8 is going to be the car to have, at 220 less pounds and only 10 less hp stock ( but tons of development out there via the spec guys )... The e36 318 could be ( rules wise ) a few lbs less but I dont think you can actually get one down that far.... ANY BODY BUILDING A e36 318 KEEP US POSTED !

[backformore]

I like the possibility of the 318 as a daily driver to be converted to a track car/license keeper/ and eventually maybe full blown ITA competitor. I could put a cage and safety equipment in one and still be able to fit in it comfortably to drive to work. It would be a reasonable replacement for my 93 Accord which I love, but has no real competiton potential.

If I was building an A-kicking A car, it might not be what I'd choose. It does seem to have potential. I agree that looking at base, stock numbers, the engine seems to be where the question mark is. It would be interesting to know how much power the BMW experts think could be extracted from that power plant.

[Doc Bro]

I like the possibility of the 318 as a daily driver to be converted to a track car/license keeper/ and eventually maybe full blown ITA competitor. I could put a cage and safety equipment in one and still be able to fit in it comfortably to drive to work. It would be a reasonable replacement for my 93 Accord which I love, but has no real competiton potential.

If I was building an A-kicking A car, it might not be what I'd choose. It does seem to have potential. I agree that looking at base, stock numbers, the engine seems to be where the question mark is. It would be interesting to know how much power the BMW experts think could be extracted from that power plant.
[/b]


It would be really great to find a BMW "expert" who knows much about the m44 or m42 for that matter. It is a motor everyone seems to glance over. The development of the motor for us has switched from trying toextract gobs of power to documenting that the motor doesn't have the potential gains thought it did in IT trim. It isn't fun spending $$$ and not finding gains.

I agree with Fred about the 1.8 Miata. I think it will be THE car to have and as it is classed relative to the e36/37 m44. For some reason the "classing Gods" have shined down favorably on the Zoom-Zoom!!

[Fastfred92]

For some reason the "classing Gods" have shined down favorably on the Zoom-Zoom!!
[/b]

Did anybody really expect anything less??? It is, afterall, a Mazda !

[Andy Bettencourt]

Just wait. You will see what they can do. I fully expect them to be a very viable choice on momentum stuff and a complete failure on power/point-shoot stuff.

People are making a HUGE mistake thinking they will be exponentially faster than SM's. It ain't gonna happen. Get one in traffic and they are sitting ducks. The reason SM's run so well is that there is nothing on the track to hold them up in corners. They will qualify well, but they will not race as well.

AB

[zracre]

hmmm i just watched one go 2.3 sec a lap faster than the pole SM...2330 (?) or 2380 with 135+- bhp to the wheels? see ya!! oh and top 5 in ITS...i believe 3rd or 4th in the race...maybe.2 or .3 off Buzz...definitely not a complete failure at a hp track...

[Andy Bettencourt]

hmmm i just watched one go 2.3 sec a lap faster than the pole SM...2330 (?) or 2380 with 135+- bhp to the wheels? see ya!! oh and top 5 in ITS...i believe 3rd or 4th in the race...maybe.2 or .3 off Buzz...definitely not a complete failure at a hp track... [/b]

Compare lap records, not Regional results for us...I bet the SM lap record is fater than the time you are looking at and the ITA record is faster than the Miata time you quote...no?

[zracre]

Nope...I believe the lap record in a SM is a 1:45:3xx and the ITA Miata was circulating at 1:43:3xx I cant be sure without more research, but I know the car was legal and well driven (ITA)...I have no clue as to the lap record in ITA...It may have fallen with the 1:43:3xx.....

[Fastfred92]

Come on Andy, don't act so smug :P At our little local track called VIR ( all 3.27 miles of it ) the recent ITA guys had a 1.6 ITA Miata cruising around at just over 1 second under the SM record and I am sold on the fact that the 1.8 WILL be a faster car! I am sure there is no coincidence you are building one, I would too if I could get my big ass down to min weight !!!!! The BMW e36 318 is going to have about the same RWHp when all is said and done but it will be hauling and extra 220 lbs, atleast I might make weight with one.

[zracre]

If I had known the 1.8 Miata was going to be the car to have for 2006/2007 I would have gotten my hands on one before the GSR...It is obviously going to be an overdog...the SM's are generally about 1.5-2.5 seconds slower than the front runners in ITA...that number is getting smaller with SM development. Now we have an unrestricted 40 over 1.8 with motec and gear ratios and adjustable suspension and open intake and open exhaust header and brake ducting and additional bracing and...and...and 200-300# lighter than the majority of the field! If my SM was a 1.8 it would be converted already! oh well...How did that one slip thru again I ask!!!

[Fastfred92]

And how I wish my car was a 94/95 and not a over restricted 2000 ! Well maybe a adhoc member will chime in with the "how"...........

[Andy Bettencourt]

Come on Andy, don't act so smug :P At our little local track called VIR ( all 3.27 miles of it ) the recent ITA guys had a 1.6 ITA Miata cruising around at just over 1 second under the SM record and I am sold on the fact that the 1.8 WILL be a faster car! I am sure there is no coincidence you are building one, I would too if I could get my big ass down to min weight !!!!! The BMW e36 318 is going to have about the same RWHp when all is said and done but it will be hauling and extra 220 lbs, atleast I might make weight with one. [/b]

Hey Bowie - how close are you to the 1:42.054 track record at RA?

Neither Bowie OR Mike Van Steenburg thinks either version is much better than the other. We shall see.


And how I wish my car was a 94/95 and not a over restricted 2000 ! Well maybe a adhoc member will chime in with the "how"........... [/b]

I have no idea what you are asking.

[Fastfred92]

Andy, the "how" I was talking about is how did the 1.8 Miata get in ITA at 2380, and last I checked Bowie was a 1.6 and hovering around that SM track record at RA now..

The reason, I know, is the formula but ( as you often point out with the e36 ITS car the dyno sheets don't lie) in restricted form in SM these motors exceed their OEM hp number to the wheels. It is very reasonable to assume that in unrestricted IT trim they will exceed the normal IT formula gains. Now I dont blame you for building one of these cars, it will be THE car but will you lead the charge to mod the weight in a year or two when these cars mop up and the Honda Acura guys cry foul ???

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy, the "how" I was talking about is how did the 1.8 Miata get in ITA at 2380, and last I checked Bowie was a 1.6 and hovering around that SM track record at RA now..[/b]

If Bowie is 'hovering' around teh track record at RA now, he is 2 and a half seconds off the ITA record...isn't the net/net that people are worried that these will kill ITA?


The reason, I know, is the formula but ( as you often point out with the e36 ITS car the dyno sheets don't lie) in restricted form in SM these motors exceed their OEM hp number to the wheels. It is very reasonable to assume that in unrestricted IT trim they will exceed the normal IT formula gains. [/b]
Don't buy into the marketing machine. There are NO 130whp 94-97 SM's out there. And one thing you have to know is what they are doing to these engines at the top level that is SPECIFICALLY not allowed in IT. You have to know the in and outs of the details to understand that the % increase over a top SM motor is not going to be what you expect...but I am willing to let the results speak for themselves.


Now I dont blame you for building one of these cars, it will be THE car but will you lead the charge to mod the weight in a year or two when these cars mop up and the Honda Acura guys cry foul ??? [/b]

If my SM was a 1.6, that is what I would have built. Mine was just a 95 1.8. Bowie had an 'idea' of what the 1.8 would com in at for weight and he chose to re-body his 1.6....

For the record, I have already told the CRB that if my car makes significantly more than 'process power', I will be submitting the sheets and requesting the weight increase. It's documented.

[zracre]

Don't buy into the marketing machine. There are NO 130whp 94-97 SM's out there. And one thing you have to know is what they are doing to these engines at the top level that is SPECIFICALLY not allowed in IT. You have to know the in and outs of the details to understand that the % increase over a top SM motor is not going to be what you expect...but I am willing to let the results speak for themselves.

[/b]

of course there are no 130 WHP 1.8 SM's...they have centered FPR's!! thats why they make a restricted 118-123 hp...remove the FPR add 40 over add header/intake and add a motec...you dont think you can find 10 to 15 hp??

[Andy Bettencourt]

of course there are no 130 WHP 1.8 SM's...they have centered FPR's!! thats why they make a restricted 118-123 hp...remove the FPR add 40 over add header/intake and add a motec...you dont think you can find 10 to 15 hp??
[/b]

The SMAC has dyno charts showing the 47mm RP takes 2-3hp away. Remove the coating of the pistons that builders think is legal - and a LEGAL brain...and you will see realistic SM numbers for 1.8's.

Do I think one will make 10-15 more whp than 118-123? That is a 128whp to 138whp range. I think it is very possible to see a 135whp Miata with 115wtq in a full bore effort - and that is just what the model predicts. Decent power, pitiful torque, horrible aero and great handling. It will be strong on some stuff and not-so-much on others.

AB

[mlytle]

a well prepped and driven ita miata showed up at the hotly contested marrs series last summer. cleaned everone's clock. 7 wins in 8 starts and the new ita track record at summit point.

just a data point.

[Andy Bettencourt]

a well prepped and driven ita miata showed up at the hotly contested marrs series last summer. cleaned everone's clock. 7 wins in 8 starts and the new ita track record at summit point.

just a data point. [/b]

Bret has won in everything he has driven. His ITA times are within hundredths of like prepped and like driven HondAcura's.

It is a data point and I have followed it closely. Mike VanSteenburg has won in his ITA car as well. Again, nothing new for Mike except the car. Neither car has been to the ARRC and succeeds mostly on tracks where power is not the primary factor...as expected.

[Fastfred92]

For the record, I have already told the CRB that if my car makes significantly more than 'process power', I will be submitting the sheets and requesting the weight increase. It's documented.
[/b]


Thats fair, and all we could ask but how forthcoming will the other Miata guys be?

And what may I ask do you think the SM guys do engine wise that will not be done in IT ?????????

[Andy Bettencourt]

Thats fair, and all we could ask but how forthcoming will the other Miata guys be?[/b]

Shouldn't matter as my engine will have nothing left on the table.


And what may I ask do you think the SM guys do engine wise that will not be done in IT ????????? [/b]

Internal engine component coating. Not specifically disallowed in SM and done under something like a 'lubrication is free' allowance. The ITCS specifically does not allow this.

(On edit) Thought you might like to see a excerpt from Bob Stretch on driving an ITA 1.8...he commented on winning a race in one.

"I'll settle the mystery. The car is our old SM 1994 1.8. Is prepped to IT rules though we are not finished with the shocks/springs/swaybars. Car does have spherical bearings though, and a headter, and a good IT motor. I was VERY disappointed at the times the car turned, especially compared to my 99 SM times. However, we have a lot of work to do, the car had some bizarre handling problems that we need to sort out. It'll make a nice ITA car, but not a class beater. I thought it would gain more from the mods allowed, but it didn't gain as much as we expected. I expected the car to go at most 1.8 seconds a lap faster than SM, at the least 1 sec faster. We were well under that... Important to note I was on old SM Hoosiers (no new stuff at all), and I also didnt rev the car near as high as it ought to run."

YMMV. :)

[Fastfred92]

I think we have found a candidate!
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h267/Fastfred92/CRW37_2.jpg

[Z3_GoCar]

Looks good, :happy204:

When you've got the title mine telling us how much? I suspect that it's much less than most would think possible.

James

[Fastfred92]

Looks good, :happy204:

When you've got the title mine telling us how much? I suspect that it's much less than most would think possible.

James
[/b]
I will give you a hint how much it cost.......... This box of shocks cost 3 times what the donor cost !!!! :wacko:
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h267/Fastfred92/Picture008.jpg

[Z3_GoCar]

So, just over $1k, that's a good price. All the 318's out here are at least 2.5k, with most of them closer to 5k. Did you see the grassroots article on their 318is buildup? I realize that theirs is an e-30, but its got the same engine. Might be worth keeping an eye on, but sounds like their next step is to install a DASC :bash_1_: It seems this engine gets no respect when it's naturally asperated.

[Fastfred92]

So, just over $1k, that's a good price. All the 318's out here are at least 2.5k, with most of them closer to 5k. Did you see the grassroots article on their 318is buildup? I realize that theirs is an e-30, but its got the same engine. Might be worth keeping an eye on, but sounds like their next step is to install a DASC :bash_1_: It seems this engine gets no respect when it's naturally asperated.
[/b] In all fairness I bought it at auction with a blown head gasket for $900 plus auction fees but I have seen several running examples with high miles for around $2k... This car ( most e36 318s ) was less than most of the Acura 94-94 Integra donors I found

This is a pic after it hit the shop ( six hours later )
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h267/Fastfred92/Picture004.jpg

[zracre]

nice!!! but the question remains...will it be ready for the ARRC??!!!

[Fastfred92]

Evan, that is the goal.......... Lofty goal but we are going to try! You HondAcura guys and Andy and the Miata guys need some lap traffic :D

[JeffYoung]

Fred, excellent. Always wondered how one of those would do in A.

[zracre]

I think you can do it! My integras second race was the ARRC 2004...no rear swaybar and no development...just bolt on parts and rush to RA...I was 12th out of 21 or so ITA cars there...also the more time you have at RA the better! I will try to be there for June and July races. Good luck and hope to see ya at the races with the new car!

[Aged racer]

Fred- did you ever get this car built ? I ran across a good deal on an e36 318 the other day, started thinking about this thread from spring.

Curious how it turned out !

Thks- Steve

[Fastfred92]

We have ran into several road blocks with the e36 ITA project: 1) can't make it down to min weight 2) Can't find much more hp. 3) they approved ITR and the sheetmetal bits on our e36 would fix the old ITS 325. 4) BMWCCA has started Spec E36 and I have a commitment their. 5) I want to build a 2001 Mustang GT for T3 6) We ( in N.C. ) now have the powerball but the numbers keep eluding me

It is kinda on the back burner right now :D

[Aged racer]

Ah, racing goes that way sometimes. Better alternatives for limited cash resources.

Thanks for the update !

Steve

[Z3_GoCar]

We have ran into several road blocks with the e36 ITA project: 1) can't make it down to min weight 2) Can't find much more hp. 3) they approved ITR and the sheetmetal bits on our e36 would fix the old ITS 325. 4) BMWCCA has started Spec E36 and I have a commitment their. 5) I want to build a 2001 Mustang GT for T3 6) We ( in N.C. ) now have the powerball but the numbers keep eluding me

It is kinda on the back burner right now :D
[/b]

You know Fred, I don't think that BMW club has a VIN requirement, even for the stock class. I suspose you could transplant the DT from a 328 into the 318 chassis for your SE-36. It's a shame 'cause I think the e-36 318 has the best chance of all the ITA BMW's of being competitive in ITA. I guess the M-44 just doesn't have anymore hp to give in IT trim.

James

On edit:
I just had a look at the rules for SE-36, looks like engine swaps are out. Usually their pretty liberal in that reguard, I guess not in this case...

[kgobey]

I have always thought this car might be a good car...

The minimum weight is difficult, I am 218lbs right now, and that sucks ass... I was 195 3 years ago...

The engine is a dog... there, I said it... But, I know guys in England who made some pretty outragious claims on Horse Power with just ECU modifications... Of course we know the car/chassis can out-handle just about anything in ITA (forget the small tracks+CRX's), in Cali I suspect our wide open tracks are conducive to this cars' competetive potential.

What's nice is that in Cali people think that the 1.9 cars are POS, so they can be had for a song. I would go for an earlier model due to OBD1, but somehow you all have me wondering on that...

BTW - not so fast on damning the e30 rear end... It may not be as nice as the e36, but, just crack open an e30 catalogue and you'll see go-faster parts for that cars' rear-end too.

but the sedan is just too tempting.

I'm going to look at this seriously.

[Fastfred92]

Good luck K,

As Greg Amy has proved, most any car has a chance given enough blood, sweat and cash but the engine has proved to be a real stumbling block on this car not to mention that the weight will be difficult at best to achieve. I had a well known "pro" engine builder tell me that he saw little gains in the M42 engine within the IT rules set. You are right in that handling and brakes would be king in ITA but that will not help if you loose 10 car lengths every straight..

[Doc Bro]

I really hope there are ITAC members lurking on this forum. I've been saying this about the m42/m44 for months.

BUT, we'll be throwing money into it this winter with a full motor build. At that point the dyno sheets will speak for themselves. It stinks having to spend so much to prove the % increase estimate was wrong. I like the e36 318 it's a better car than the Z3 (better rear suspension, vented front brakes, better aero). If I ball up the Z3 that's where I'll be heading.

on re-read maybe it's time for another CRB letter.

R

[Fastfred92]

Good luck to you too, Doc! problem is even with dyno sheets in hand there is no more weight to remove from the e36 cars, I dont know about the Z3 variants but e36 coupe / sedan is done, weight wise... and it is way too much car to down another class.

[chiggins]

I guess you can say I've been lurking for awhile off and on here... I've been autoxing my 95 318i for the past few years with my ultimate goal being ITA with either another M42 318 or Z3 1.9 within 2-5 years. I have college loans to finish paying off and lots of track days ahead before I commit to building a racecar.

I might experiment with a few bolt on power-adders next year now that I've done 3+ seasons on the bone stock M42. I hope to get out to Summit Point and VIR more next year.