New Cage or Remove & Replace?

[tom_sprecher]

Well, it has been a little more than 2 weeks since the wreck and I have everything out of the car and am actively looking for a new shell, or actually a donor car since I need a few suspension components as well. I was curious as to how many of you have had to replace a body and if you went with a new roll cage or cut the old one out and re-used it in the new shell?

Yesterday, while watching Speed and hoisting a few bevies, some of my racing buddies looked at where to cut & sleeve the existing cage so it will come out in as few pieces as possible. I will probably look at the time and expense of doing it both ways and make a decision. Any advice on the pros and cons of both paths would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

[lateapex911]

Tom, I wish I could tell you how I did it.
But I haven't done it yet!
I too have a 1st gen that is twisted. (Watkins Glen Armco). I have a new straight and rust free chassis, which I will do a complete strip on.
My plan is to cut the current car and pull it straight up, and drop it in the new car, roof off. I will of course, add temporary structure to the new chassis.

The unresolved problem(s) with my still conceptual plan is how to deal with my front tubes which shoot thru the AC holes in the dash, and the cross car tube which is internal IN the dash. Might be simpler just to remake that one.

Other than that, it'll be a peice of cake!

[ITS5GB]

I have been trying to put together an IT7 car I bought as a project a couple of years ago. It came with a cage in it that is a kit with welded sleeves(no door bars or bar by dash). I also have a cage out of a GSL-SE that is a very well built cage. I wrecked that car several years ago and cut the car in half to save the cage as a whole. I finally, this past weekend, took the car and extra cage to a local cage builder to see what he could do. After measuring and thinking and measuring again and standing around looking at all the possibilities it was decided that in the long run it would take less time and money(because time is money!) to sawzall the kit cage out and build a new one from scratch. It's so difficult to get the cage to fight right trying to shoehorn it in. If anyone is interested in a full welded cage w/nascar bars or a kit cage cut apart, let me know! BTW, I have so much money sunk in to this "project car", I can't stop now. :bash_1_:

[joeg]

The Bottom line is that there are many ways to do it, but each way is dependent on your own skills, availability of tools (and your knowledge as to how to use them), time or budget--lack of a budget if money is no object.

The easiest is if you have money to spend and some time is to simply have your new shell professionally caged with a new cage.

Being on the "guilty side" (a bit frugal and not wanting to see good roll cage tubing go to the scrap heap), you may safely cut and sleeve. A bit neater--but way more intimidating--is to hack off the roof. I mean hack it off half way up the pillars so the entire shell is opened up. This can be done but it involves complete glass removal and possibly even access and use of a frame machine to complete the cage transplant and reattach the roof. This process means access to quite a few freinds and a freindly dude with a frame machine.

The mid course is the cut and sleeve process. This may require dash removal and maybe even glass removal, but skill wise, it is far less daunting for those choosing to save as much as possible out of the old cage.

Cheers.

[RSTPerformance]

You could also do what I did... The front (Including the firewall) was bent on my car after a hill climbing event that well never mind, to the point... lol

I cut my car in half and put a new front half back on. You can see a 1.5" seem in the floor, but that is it. I cut the floor midway between the peddles and the seat. I then cut the small portion of the frame around the window that supports the roof in the front. Some may argue that the way that I cut the rockers and what not is not as stiff (I did not layer the cuts) however the cage makes up for any loss IMO.

Take a look at the pictures on our website, and feel free to ask questions.

(Link to the page with all the pictures): http://www.rstperformance.com/pictures/rst...di51rebuild.htm (http://www.rstperformance.com/pictures/rstpictures2001season/01audi51rebuild/01audi51rebuild.htm)

All it took for tools was:

A sawsal to cut the cars in half (It is surprising how quick you can cut a car in half (About 10 minute’s tops)):

A Grinder to smooth the edges that were to be joined.

A measuring tape and marker to align everything

A few jack stands and boards to hold everything in the correct place.

A welder (and mask(s)) to weld the joints!!!

A couple pictures of progress just for fun!!!
http://www.rstperformance.com/pictures/rstpictures2001season/01audi51rebuild/Mvc-014s.jpg

http://www.rstperformance.com/pictures/rstpictures2001season/01audi51rebuild/Mvc-018s.jpg


To help ease my pain when I started cutting, I said its all sheet metal anyway; it’s worth a shot... I think the total cost of repairs was a front clip (free from a totaled/stripped car), less than $50 cash and my time.


Raymond

[racer_tim]

The easiest way to transplant a cage is to "top" the car. You cut out the old cage but leave it intact, and with the new car, simply cut the A pillars and the door jam and remove the top, place the cage back it, and then weld both the cage and the top back on.

Not sure how this wold work on an RX7 since the rear "hatch" is all glass, but this the standard way for a VW. I've done this in the past, as well as a friend with a Datsun 1200. Just make sure when you weld back the top on, to leave a little gap in the joint, depending on how you cut off the top.

I used a Sawzall to top the new car, so when welding it back up, make sure to add a blade width so all of the glass fits with the standard seals, etc.

[joeg]

Tim--Thanks for the term, "Top".

Raymond--What you did is what many street car rebuilders do "clipping" or sectioning a couple cars to make one good one. I suppose the section that is saved with the VIN becomes the salvaged or rebuilt car. Nice job!

I know in New York State, if you rebuilt a car in such fashion after having purchased it (and/or its donor car wreck) at the insurance auction and you want to get a "salvage" title for it in order to retail it, you do need a very special DMV inspection as they are on the look out more for stolen parts rather than the quality of the resurrection.

Tons of fun. If you know people in the business, it explains their affinity to one or two brands or models at most--they need the parts.

[tom_sprecher]

Thanks for the replies. The car bent like a bannana along the drive shaft tunnel so I think sectioning is not going to help. I own or have acess to all the tools mentioned except the frame straightening jig but Christmas will be here before ya know it. :P Before I put the car on the track I had added a NASCAR bar to the passenger side as well as a shoulder belt attachment tube to the main hoop so I have some experience at fabbing on a roll cage as well as setting drop cloths on fire. :rolleyes:

I can get the 1.75 x .120 tubing down the street for $5/ft in small quantities. I even have enough .1875" plate laying around here I should be able to make up some better mounting points for nothing. I believe I can get the main and window hoops out with a minumin of sawzall cuts. The sleeves would be internal with both ends of the tubing slotted so the ends can be brought together and the sleeve centered on the kerf.

I like the idea of cutting holes in the floor where the cage mounts so the tubes can drop down to get a good weld all around the top of the hoops. My cage is so close to the roof and sides it would be about the only way to gain access. Then you slide the mounts over the holes and under the tubes. You could actually shim up the whole cage against the inside of the shell if you did it right.

I'm going to get some pricing on installed as well as prebent cages as the RX-7 is pretty common. Depending on the results and when I can locate a shell I'll decide what to do.

Thanks,

[lateapex911]

I like the idea of cutting holes in the floor where the cage mounts so the tubes can drop down to get a good weld all around the top of the hoops. My cage is so close to the roof and sides it would be about the only way to gain access. Then you slide the mounts over the holes and under the tubes. You could actually shim up the whole cage against the inside of the shell if you did it right.

Thanks,
[/b]

Thats a cool trick, but it has a couple drawbacks too. First you can't do that too effectively if you want the front bars to land on the rockers...as you can't ...well you shouldn't cut your rockers that much. Also it makes the front tubes narrower on some cars. On my RX7 I did the top welding at the back with the cage tilted forward thru the windshelid, then puashed it back and put the front downtubes in, and cut access holes in the roof with a holesaw, which left neat peices to weld back in.

[tom_sprecher]

Does anyone know what the accepted length of an internal sleeve should be expressed in diameters? I was looking at Prepare To Win and Sir Carroll Smith wants something like 5 diameters. Now, I do not know what diameter or wall tubing he's using, but at 1.75" x .120" I don't have 5 diameters to play with.

He also advocates using a scarf joint (think diagonal) as opposed to a butt joint. But after looking at his diagrams he is using the scarf w/o a sleeve and the 5 diameters is for a splice at a tubing juncture.

Still, you guys have any ideas or observations?

Also, Raymond, what is the square tube? located at the visors for?

Thanks,

[lateapex911]

Also, Raymond, what is the square tube? located at the visors for?

Thanks,
[/b]

I think he uses that to see his brother behind him....


hee hee

[RSTPerformance]

QUOTE(tom_sprecher @ Mar 14 2006, 04:40 PM)

Also, Raymond, what is the square tube? located at the visors for?

Thanks,

I think he uses that to see his brother behind him....
hee hee
[/b]


yup, I can see my brother as well as Jake in the wink mirror :cavallo:

As you might be able to tell nothing was stripped other than the front of the car... the mess in the passenger seat is the wireing harness from the engine bay.

Raymond

[seckerich]

Tom if the car is trashed already just cut the car off the cage.Carefully go around the welds for the door bars and the upper tubes where they attach to the main hoop with a cutoff wheel. Just cut the welds or at the least the bars that attach to the hoop. do not dig into the main hoop if possible. Remove the main hoop and down bars as a section and the front with door bars as another section. When you go to weld it back together just gussett the joints and it will be as strong as ever. should only have to replace the tubes to the firewall and use everything else as is.

[joeg]

Tom--I believe you make your internal sleeve out of 1 &5/8 OD tubing. You will be making a plug and it really does not have to be that long, perhaps a few inches at most.

Sometimes scale on the tubing prevents the tubes from fitting in with each other, so you have to clean things up both inside and outside really well.

I would just rosette the plug (on both sides of the joint) and buttweld the joint. The better you do this the stronger the tube will be.

Look at Figure 5 in the GCR page 117

[tom_sprecher]

Steve I like the way you think. Even if I loose a little (maybe .125 after clean up) off the door bars and Petty bar I just move the two assemblies that much closer upon assembly into the new car. I'll take a closer look at it tonight as the windshield and dash bars may have to be done the same way in order to get the front section out of the car.

I think the sleeves, if I use them, would be 1.75" - 2 x .120" = 1.50" with .010" clearance. Clean the ID and OD and they should go together perfectly.

Can you save windows or just bust 'em out?

Thanks,

[seckerich]

Steve I like the way you think. Even if I loose a little (maybe .125 after clean up) off the door bars and Petty bar I just move the two assemblies that much closer upon assembly into the new car. I'll take a closer look at it tonight as the windshield and dash bars may have to be done the same way in order to get the front section out of the car.

I think the sleeves, if I use them, would be 1.75" - 2 x .120" = 1.50" with .010" clearance. Clean the ID and OD and they should go together perfectly.

Can you save windows or just bust 'em out?

Thanks,
[/b]
Carefully cut the windshield out and install clips like a production car when you replace it. Use a gasket around the window instead of sealer and you can change it in minutes if you crack one. If you must cut the front tube to get it out cut at a 45 to increase the weld area for the repair sleeve.

[titanium]

Tom,
Tammy and I are heartbroken about the car.
You put alot of work into it over the past months, but it was still our 'baby' for 5 years.
I think it is a great idea to try to save the cage.
The one thing I worry about is if the cage got bent or twisted in the wreck.
If you want me to take a look at it, we could swing by on the 4th and 5th of April.
(Tammy and I will be camping in Ft Yargo in Winder Ga. on those dates)
Let me know.

P.S.
Once your done with the shell, if you can find a wrecking yard to crush it into a 3ft cube, I'll buy it from you.

[tom_sprecher]

Thank you for the condolences and I can assure both of you Donna and I share them about "our" loss. It was an excellent car when we received it and all I did was paint it and go through everything mainly to familiarize myself and make sure nothing was overlooked. The car ran flawlessly for almost 7 hours before its demise.

I'm not sure what to do with the shell. Unlike where you guys are, my driveway is quite a hill, so I'll either chop it up into pieces and put it in the back of the F-250, or I'll get a flatbed tow truck to back down and pull it out. Either way I'll cut out a piece and send it to you. Also, PM your email and I'll send some pics of before the physics experiment.

I'm calling it The Phoenix Project since the fuel cell caught fire (again) and the new car will rise from the fiery wreckage. Or something like that.

BTW - How's your car coming along? Say hi to Tammy and Trinity. And if you can stop by while in the area you are more than welcome.

Thanks,

[Renaultfool]

I did this job on a friends Golf that he had wrecked and put the cage into a Jetta. We torched the mounting plates loose from the floor of the wrecked Golf. Used a sawzall to cut out the door bars and dash bar as they were straight pipe and easy to replace. We cut the front hoops/down tubes from the main hoop leaving enough room to make the cage "bolt in" using an 8" outside sleeve and bolts as required by the GCR for a bolt in cage. We felt that it was better to not cut the main hoop or front hoop elements more than that as they were the main strength of the cage. We were able to get the main hoop out of the car with the rear braces that went to the rear shock towers attached, as we cut the roof off the wrecked Golf. We cut them off later as the doors on the Jetta were smaller as it was a 4 door and we couldn't have gotten the main hoop through a door with these rear braces attached.
We cleaned up the mounting pads, removing the pieces of old floor, and in some cases made up new mounting pads and welded them into the Jetta. We were able to get the main hoop into the Jetta through the front passenger door after removing the steering wheel. Once in place we tacked it to the mounting plate already welded to the floor with one small tack on each side to allow us to lean it forward and back. We made up new rear tubes to go to the rear shock towers as they were straight pipe and easy to replace. They attatched onto the main hoop at an angle so it was not problem to weld all the way around them.
We used the outer sleeves and bolts where the front hoops connected to the main hoop as in a bolt in cage. When the installation was complete we tacked these sleeves to the tubing so that the cage would be stiffer than a bolt in cage. We left the bolts in place as they are legal in a bolt in installation and we could not weld all the way around the sleeves as the roof was too close, so we had the best of both worlds. We replaced the door bars and dash bar with new straight tubing and all was well.
I think that the installation in the Jetta is as stiff and safe as the original installation in the Golf.
Carl

[JimLill]

I have an VW A2 with an Autopower bolt-in. The front hoop mount points were enhanced and welded. Any comments on the acceptability of further welding on that? For example, the 2007 side bars and maybe a front hoop cross-bar. How about welding the bolt in sleeves?

[joeg]

Weld away, Jim.

Just be aware of mounting point limitations.

[tlyttle43]

In some cases, it is possible to reuse a cage without even using sleeves. I have a cage in one of my current cars (an ITS Nissan 200SX V6) that is in its third tub and it is indistiinguishable from when it was in the first.

Here's how you do it - cut the roof of the old car, then carefully remove the old cage. Cut it into two sections - with all the cuts flush with the front of the main hoop (i.e., the top hoop and door bars). This leaves you with two parts - a) the hoop and everything back and B) everything forward. Detach the cage from the floor using a sawzall or torch around the mounting plates.

Then you clean everything up - grind the ends of the welds off the main hoop, grind the extra material from around the mounting plates (welds and old floor), renotch the top tubes and door bars. Then stick everything into the new tub and reweld. The only possible problem is that the front section may be so large that you can't get it into the new tub without removing the roof. If so you either have to do that or else cut out and replace the door tubes. Whether this is a problem is mostly a function of how far behind the door opening the main hoop is located. (Farther back = longer door bars = harder to get in the door) Other factors include how close the cage is to the shell and how low you bottom door bar is. The easiest way to check this in advance is to not cut the roof off the old car - if you can get it out originally, you can get it in the new tub.

When you're finished, the only difference is that the cage is about 3/4" shorter than when you started.

As I say, it's worked for me twice.

Tom Lyttle

[Mark LaBarre]

.... The car bent like a bannana along the drive shaft tunnel .


[/b]


Then your cage is probably bent too, right? So you'll not only have to remove it from the old car, try to straighten it, install it in the new car.
Seems like a lot of work for something that won't be up to snuff when done.

[tom_sprecher]

Depends on the banana. Maybe I exaggerated there a bit but it was intuitively obvious to the casual observer that the tunnel was kinked. The cage has been taken out by cutting the old tub away and then it was zizzed apart at the welds. The main hoop remained intact but the window hoop and NASCAR bars had to be zizzed off to get them back in. I have had most of it back in the car to mock up where the new pads needed to go so it should go in w/o a problem albeit about a half an inch shorter front to back. It’s slow going due to other priorities and the fact the it’s so damn hot here now the idea of welding is not too appealing. The pads are in but need to be second passed, then I’ve got to clean up the cage tubes and weld it back in. Then there’s fuel cell mounts, rear axle rebuild, painting, etc, etc, etc.

Good thing I bought a used race car so I wouldn't have to build one from scratch. :rolleyes: