IT7 tire rule question

[papabear]

I understand that all IT7 races will require use of the spec tire. I originally thought it would only be SARRC races but now it is IT races as well. Has any consideration been given to allow IT7 to run Hoosier tires, with a weight penalty. I have a couple of sets of good Hoosiers from last year that I would like to run. This would give competitors a choice of running the spec tire at regular weight or running the Hoosier with a penalty. I would rather race the Hoosiers with a weight penalty then purchase new tires. Does anyone have an opinion or know if this has been discussed?

I know we can run ITA, but I don't feel the RX7 will be competitive even withe the weight adjsutment.

thanks, papabear

[crushed]

You can run the hoosier in pro-it races. pro-it rules state cars must conform to itcs, which says any dot approved tire may be used.

[tlyttle43]

Russ -
How do you figure that the language you cited means that the tire rule doesn't apply to IT-7 in Pro IT? IT-7 doesn't exist in the ITCS. It only exists in the SEDIV regional rules, and those rules include the spec tire requirement. If the Pro IT rules specifically disavowed the regional IT7 spec tire rule, I'd understand. But since it doesn't, I don't see there's any way that the general IT-7 rules don't apply, i.e., with a spec tire.

I don't really much care, but if we're running IT-7 and the IT-7 rules call for a spec tire, why is Pro IT exempt?

Tom Lyttle

[crushed]

I swear there was a line in the pro-it rules that said "IT-7 is the 79-85 RX-7 prepared to ITA rules", but I guess I was wrong.

I still don't see how the SARRC rules apply to pro-it at all, they are two completely separate series (or maybe it's just wishful thinking :P ).

60 series tires don't belong on a race car!

edit:
if this is not the case, then the majority of the field was not legal for the PRO-IT race at the ARRC last year.

[instigator]

Russ you would be right but,and Tom you would be right as well. PRO IT is not a south eastern division racing series as is SARRAC,or the enduro races. It is a altanta regional race and that region makes the rules for that series. Therfore if they chose too they may allow the use of the hossier tire for that series or class .The information I received is that they did choose to go with the spec tire rule for this year 2006. The race at the ARRC was under 2005 rules which allowed hossier tiers,and the supps clearly stated for that weekend any tire went for all race series.

[Hracer]

This is interesting. I had no idea IT7s have to run a spec tire now. Not that I'm an IT7 participant, but any reasons for this?

It's also a shame since it would be interesting how fast the top IT7 cars will be around the tracks in the sediv on hoosiers. Imo with the lead that the Hondas have to carry around and the weight break the RX7s received, it would not surprise me one bit if the IT7 winner, even on spec tires, will also finish in front of all the ITA cars running Hoosiers. It's hard to bet against an ITA RX7, especially at a rwd track like Roebling, or even CMP and VIR. But then again, the way ITA looks at the moment, any one of 12+ different cars can win a given race.

[papabear]

I know the rule was made to run a spec tire, even though I don't like it I will respect it. I would like to propose letting competitiors run the Hoosier tires but with a weight penalty and still stay in IT7. I have talked to other IT7 drivers and they are going to run ITA just becuase they don't like the spec tire. IT7 is a great class and I would hate to see it disappear because of a tire rule. I am not asking the spec tire rule be overturned this year, but I would like to have a choice even if it meant a 50 to 100 lb penalty. That way teh spec tire should still have teh advantage but we have teh option of running other brands.

[crushed]

The spec tire went into effect on October 1st 2005, so the PRO-IT at the 2005 ARRC would have required a Toyo if we were in fact using the SARRC rules. SARRC and PRO-IT are two different series, I don't see how anyone would assume that PRO-IT uses SARRC rules, as there is no mention of the word "SARRC" in the rules for PRO-IT.

I will be one of those ITA cars if I'm forced to run Toyos in PRO-IT. What kind of contingency does Toyo offer us again?

[papabear]

I looked on the sedivracing.org website under regional class rules. On page 3 it states that all IT7 cars must use a spec tire. Other people I have tlaked with also think the Toyo will be required in IT races. I may be with you and forced to run ITA if Hoosiers are not allowed. By the way I think the contingency for Toyo's is "nothing". This is another reason I would like to run Hoosiers with some type of penalty. Is there anyone in the rule department that we could express our concerns to? Again I understand the spec tire rule was going to be in effect this year, but I thought it would only be in Sarrc.

[tlyttle43]

The reason that the IT-7 rule was proposed was that: 1) The Toyo tires are cheaper and 2) They last a bunch longer. Blair Stitt from NC was the person pushing the rule. He took a survey of all IT7 drivers in the southeast (in late 2004, I believe) and took it to the SEDIV comp board. There was some question about how comprehensive the survey was, so another was done last year. Based on that, the spec tire rule was adopted, effective October 1, 2005.

I voted for the spec tire, based on the cost and, primarily, the long wear of Toyos. I used them for years on my Nissan and the they do indeed last almost forever (they barely slow down until the cords show through, which takes a LOT of races.) A set is also about $100 less than for Hoosiers. So even without any contingency, they will save you a fair amount of money over replacing a set of Hoosiers every couple weekends as they quickly lose grip (unless you win every weekend and get good Hoosier contingencies)..

I still don't know why the 2005 ARRC and Pro IT didn't require Toyos, since it was after October 1. There was nothing I saw in the supps that would have negated the SEDIV IT7 rules. I didn't complain that we could use Hoosiers, since I had an almost new set anyway.

However, that was after I'd already bought a set ogf Toyos. And I must say that after using them for a seesion, I'm unimpressed. It's been a long time since I've driven a car that felt so wobbly. This was a real surprise to me, since the Toyos were always fine on the Nissan (not quite as fast as the Hoosiers, but they felt just as good).

So color me undecided about whether the spec tire rule is a good idea - I know it will save money overall for everybody except maybe Rickey Thompson, but it sure is less fun to drive.

Tom Lyttle

[tlyttle43]

A couple of other points on this -

The IT7 rule isn't a "SARRC" rule, it's a SEDIV rule for all regional classes. Therefore, as best I can tell, it applies to any races in the SEDIV. I assume Atlanta Region could override the spec tire rule for the Pro IT series, if they wanted (and whoever has to approve the Pro IT rules at the divisional level agreed). But they haven't.

There was also a suggestion that, if they had Hoosiers, RX7s could run with the other ITA cars. Sorry, there's not a chance. The RX7s have been running Hoosiers for years, including this year's ARRC as we've discussed. IT7s haven't beaten ITAs for years (outside an occasional fluke) and the gap continues to get larger (i.e., 4+ seconds at the ARRC between the fastest ITA and the fastest IT7s). 100 pounds off of the RX7 isn't going to overcome anywhere near that kind of a difference, even assuming that it's possible to take 100 pounds off existing cars, which is unlikely.

There are a bunch of very fast IT7s in SEDIV that usually qualify within a second or so, so I doubt that there is a lot more speed to be gotten from the cars. Short of a wholesale class restructuring, RX7s aren't going to be competitive in ITA for the forseeable future.

Which makes me ask a question of those who say they'll run Hoosiers in ITA instead of Toyos in IT7. Are you REALLY serious? Toyos may not be everyone's favorite, but to me it's a whole bunch better to be competitive in IT7 than to get utterly blown off in ITA. Remember, that's why IT7 was formed in the first place, and that's why a lot of us race there.

Tom Lyttle

[lateapex911]

A couple of other points on this -

The IT7 rule isn't a "SARRC" rule, it's a SEDIV rule for all regional classes. Therefore, as best I can tell, it applies to any races in the SEDIV. I assume Atlanta Region could override the spec tire rule for the Pro IT series, if they wanted (and whoever has to approve the Pro IT rules at the divisional level agreed). But they haven't.

There was also a suggestion that, if they had Hoosiers, RX7s could run with the other ITA cars. Sorry, there's not a chance. The RX7s have been running Hoosiers for years, including this year's ARRC as we've discussed. IT7s haven't beaten ITAs for years (outside an occasional fluke) and the gap continues to get larger (i.e., 4+ seconds at the ARRC between the fastest ITA and the fastest IT7s). 100 pounds off of the RX7 isn't going to overcome anywhere near that kind of a difference, even assuming that it's possible to take 100 pounds off existing cars, which is unlikely.

There are a bunch of very fast IT7s in SEDIV that usually qualify within a second or so, so I doubt that there is a lot more speed to be gotten from the cars. Short of a wholesale class restructuring, RX7s aren't going to be competitive in ITA for the forseeable future.

Which makes me ask a question of those who say they'll run Hoosiers in ITA instead of Toyos in IT7. Are you REALLY serious? Toyos may not be everyone's favorite, but to me it's a whole bunch better to be competitive in IT7 than to get utterly blown off in ITA. Remember, that's why IT7 was formed in the first place, and that's why a lot of us race there.

Tom Lyttle
[/b]
Tom....a couple points.

It IS possible to get the 7 to minimum weight, or VERY close.

Don't forget, many cars are running over 100 pounds more so the delta is really 200 pllus pounds.

But it won't be enough at many tracks. But at some the 7 could be way up there.
I heard Rick T. was going A this year.

What tire won the ARRC last year???
(I think I know the answer)
;)

[Hotshoe]

Tom....a couple points.

It IS possible to get the 7 to minimum weight, or VERY close.

Don't forget, many cars are running over 100 pounds more so the delta is really 200 pllus pounds.

What tire won the ARRC last year???
(I think I know the answer)
;)
[/b]
Jake,

... Your right about the weight. My car went across the scales at the ARRC weighing 2530 lbs. So I have a few pounds to loose. Driver could stand to loose some of that ... LOL

... As for the tire rule: :dead_horse:

... I left the class (IT7) just so I wouldn't have to slow my car down. Check the race results for VIR last fall. My fastest lap time in ITA on Hoosiers was 2:19.846 The fastest lap by an IT7 car during the same race was 2:24.381 .My fastest lap time in IT7 on Toyos (the day before during the ECR with the same car) was 2:21.113 My lap record @ VIR is 2:17.583 with a fresh motor and new Hoosier tires.
... I hope to duplicate or even better that time this March. The car will be 200 lbs lighter and Estus White is installing some new rotor housings and apex seal springs so I will have the power to get the job done.

... I'm glad that I can still ... RUN... in IT....A B)

... Rick

[Hracer]

There was also a suggestion that, if they had Hoosiers, RX7s could run with the other ITA cars. Sorry, there's not a chance. The RX7s have been running Hoosiers for years, including this year's ARRC as we've discussed. IT7s haven't beaten ITAs for years
[/b]
Since you are going off race results instead of giving this process we’ve all heard about the benefit of the doubt, just last year the IT7 winner beat all ITA cars in at least two separate events on two different tracks, Roebling and CMP. And this is just stuff I've quickly come across glancing at some results at mylaps.com. An important side note is that this occurred *before* the 215 lbs weight swing that has now benefited the RX7 when compared to the Honda cars at least - which were responsible for winning ITA in the above mentioned results.

As far as the ARRC, the success of most cars in ITA is (or will now become more) track dependant. It's clear the 1st gen RX7 has been at a disadvantage at Road Atlanta. This track places a great emphasis particularly on the car's ability to handle unusually large and abrupt loads in its suspension without upsetting it, mostly when going over curbs in key areas. Whatever car can't handle this well enough won't be as fast as one that can around this particular track. However, I have no experience with 1st gen RX7s to know if this is what is holding them back, or not at Road Atlanta. It’s just based on some observations.



Toyos may not be everyone's favorite, but to me it's a whole bunch better to be competitive in IT7 than to get utterly blown off in ITA.
[/b]
Unfortunately, it seems that on several tracks in the sediv, those getting "utterly blown off" by ITA cars also suffer the same fate when racing against people like Rick Thompson driving 1st gen RX7s, imo. ;) Which will be especially true now after the weight adjustments.

[tlyttle43]

Sorry, I was wrong about being "utterly blown off" in ITA with the new rules. I hadn't read through all the weight additions to the CRX, integra, 240SX, etc., so with a 200+ pound swing, an ITA RX7 now at least stands a chance. I'm still of the opinion that, for a similar level of car prep and driver, an RX7 still won't be able to outrun one of the current ITA frontrunners. Rick is the clear leader among the 7s racing in SEDIV. He occasionally beats all the ITAs, but not when a few of the frontrunning ITAs show up. Rick won at VIR in the fall, but I don't see any of the fastest ITAs there. At SARRC/MARRS, when a few did, he was 3 seconds off their pace. IF he can get down to 2280, he may have a chance, but I'ii reserve judgement on wheteher it will happen.

Tom Lyttle

[papabear]

I wonder how many IT7 cars will switch to ITA because of the tire rule? I hope this dosen't hurt the 7 class. Does anyone know how much the toyos will hurt the gear? Can I still run a 4.88 at RA and be competitive? What sizes do teh toyos come in?

[crushed]

I wonder how many IT7 cars will switch to ITA because of the tire rule? I hope this dosen't hurt the 7 class. Does anyone know how much the toyos will hurt the gear? Can I still run a 4.88 at RA and be competitive? What sizes do teh toyos come in?
[/b]

You've stumbled upon one of my other arguments against the Toyo, that nobody seemed to think about when they signed that petition.

205/60-13 is the ONLY size Toyo that will fit the 7. 4.88 is close at RA but the proper gear would be the 5.12. I don't have a 5.12, it would cost me $600 to buy only the ring and pinion gears. ISC charges $1200 for a complete 5.12 diff. Someone explain to me how Toyos are cheaper again?

[steve s]

i ran the arrc last year on toyos and a 4.88 .iwas right there with the front runners until i was punted off by one of my fellow competitor . you guys should be ok gear wise. the 5.125 may be better but you may lose through some sections.and gain through some sections resulting in about the same lap time.within .20sec.

[crushed]

Just to spread the word, I received clarification on this situation from Sandy Pence (the PRO-IT Administrator):


The pro it rules run under SCCA rules; additional rules made by SE Div. have not been adopted. Therefore, any tire is legal in the pro it.[/b]

Might be a moot point, we'll probably need snow tires for the next race anyway :lol:

[instigator]

hey, Tom do you remeber in Feb of last year at ATL during the SARRC race that you finished 2nd to a car on toyos. Not to mention that the car that won that race was punted at the top of the hill in turn 2 on the 1st lap ,and ran you down to win the race.I belive that you were on hossiers that race and that they were fairly new tires as well.I also belive that driver was none other than Ricky T, and he was in an unfamilier car for the first time that year. Yes before you mention it Brain did out qualifly him and did suffer mechanical failier during the race. He ran you down and you had a good half mile lead on him.

I have tried to make this point several times car prep is the key to making a fast car,but a good driver is what that car needs to win. the cost to make a hoosier preped car win with toyos will take about 12 sets of tires to recoop in savings. gee the tires last for a long time lets say a season , 12 seasons, I dont think it will save the cars any money that are already very competative on hooosiers. I do think it will make several car owners switch to ITA,due to the cost in volved in making this switch , be sides who wants to start all over again and redevelope a perfectly good car just because some one could not except that they were not able to take the time and work on their car,or that maybe they are not the driver they thought they were. That is what promoted the padded spec tire vote. The fact is still the same those who do choose to covert over to the spec tire and are normaly front runners will still be front runners becuase they will spend the money and take time to work on ther cars. This will not level the competiveness nor will it make it more affordable. It will just end up making alot of people mad and possibley killing the class.




Kurt IT7 #00 @ #59

[tlyttle43]

Kurt, I'm very aware that Rickey is faster than I am. He's faster than anyone in the southeast, with rare exceptions on the odd day (Brian at Road Atlanta is an example although that wasn't in his car. The SIC 2005 is another, although Rickey came back strong after his spin and might well have won without it). Basically, though, he gets outrun maybe once a year. Look at the stats. He has won about 90% of the races he enters, and most of the ones he didn't were ones in which he had problems.

But that's my point for people who think RX7s will be competitive in ITA. Rickey is clearly the fastest RX7 around and yet he's still several seconds off the pace when the really fast ITAs (i.e., the Rick Thompsons of ITA) show up. The weight changes will make it closer, but I still don't see RX7s being truly competitive in ITA. That's not to say that Rick and some of the other RX7s won't win some races. When the fields are a little weaker, it will happen (For a similar scenario, I've won 4 IT7 races in the last two years - but it was in races where Rick didn't show up. That doesn't mean I'm a truly competitive IT7 driver.)

And the reason for the spec tire rule was cost savings, not a desire for us slower people to drag down the fast guys. It wouldn't work. As you note, the fast guys are the fast guys for a reason. It doesn't make a difference whether everyone is on Hoosiers or everyone is on Toyos.

Tom Lyttle

[instigator]

Tom, you said in your post that your car did not handle or perform as well as it had with your nissan on toyos .I guess this means you will spend money for your already very competative car. So I ask were will the saved money go? It will go to redevedope your suspension on your car. Were did your savings go? You didnt get any you just got another budget increase. Your car performs very well with the hoosier tire. I hope that your post will help others to come to the same conclusion. If you developed your car with one tire make it will cost you money to get your car back to its perfomance standers after changing to another tire.


Kurt IT7 #00 @ #59

[tlyttle43]

Kurt -

I should have been a little clearer. I ran just one session on the Toyos - plus I made the mistake of using the unshaved version - so it's not surprising that they didn't feel as good as the Hoosiers. I'm sure I'll be able to get the car working properly within a handful of sessions, i.e., one set of tires, not 12. Even if it's not quite as fast as the Hoosiers, as long as everyone is on the same tire I don't see the problem (everyone will just go a little slower).

We'll see how things go this weekend. I assume you'll be there in ITA?

Tom Lyttle

[racerpepe]

i don't recall anyone bitching when we were getting our asses kicked by the crx's in it-a when Stan and Lee started it-7. now when something does not go your way you bitch or say your going to run it-a. it-7 is the most driver oriented class in scca. i don't recall any spec miata driver getting to vote or being asked their imput on a spec tire. in it-7 it was 5 to 1 for a spec tire. if you don't like it quit bitching and get support to change it or anything else you think will help the class grow. we can vote to bring back six thousand dollar remote res shocks if that is what we want. i don't care if the majority of drivers vote that we have to run on 1 rotor and space saver spares i will support that and support the class and if i don't agree with it i will try to change it but I WILL NOT RUN TO IT-A OR PUT DOWN THE CLASS. use your energy to help it-7. call Stan or Lee and ask their opinion and brainstorm with your fellow drivers on ideas to help the class. that is what will make changes for the positive. you are it-7. i for one don't claim to be in Ricky's league. and speaking of Ricky i have seen him run extremely fast on hoosiers and toyo's on the same weekend in the same car. also when scca did thier tire test to my knowledge they ran a nunber of different tires on the same cars with the same set up and came up with toyo. but unlike spec miata we can change this if the majority of us want it changed. try that in any other class. use your powers for good help it-7. i personally love this class as well as my fellow drivers and will continue running my mid pack self in whatever configuration or tire or whatever that WE decide. as with everything in our lives we have the power to help or to hurt. please try to help it-7 and you will always have me behind you. literally with my slow ass self. sincerely "LT" lap traffic Pepe.

[mocoboyz]

Amen, Pepe, you said a mouthful(for most people; you on the other hand, probably didn't come up for air!). That's why we luv ya!!!



Your friends in Moore County :eclipsee_steering: