Need Help From A1 Experts--Building a Toy

[nordtexan]

I would love to gain the insight and expertise from any A1 experts in the group. I am building as a "therapy" an A1 GTI car to Solo and Autocross. Eventually would like to participate in track days, but not sanctioned/class racing.

Presently, the car is in pieces and I am accumulating the proper parts for assembly. I have completed the engine rebuild and tranny/lsd install.

What I need to sort out relates to the suspension, brakes, roll-cage, tire/wheel package, and data-acq. system.

With regard to the front control arms and rear spindles, can they be adapted to use Porsche spindles/hubs to accept P-car brakes and 5 lug hubs? The a-arms are the same as early 944 control arms, so I thought they might bolt up. Anyone have experience with parts interchangeability? What has worked for others on improving brakes? I did the swap to rear disc off a Scirocco, but I would like to "over-brake" the car. Additionally, I would love to use phone dial wheels from same make. What off-sets will I need to run to avoid clearance/rubbing of suspension and arches. I may use coilovers, as I have heard with the tighter springs, you gain clearance on the inside.(is that true?)

Roll-cage is a tough thing to shop, as I suspect it's best to get locally given shipping costs. I understand the benefits of bolt vs. weld in, so I guess it comes down to geometry. Any suggestions.

I will likely not use the factory gauge cluster, rather I would shop a DA system that has graphical display of tach, speed and allow for export of data. Any favorites out there under $1-2000?

Thanks for any and all help!

[Conover]

You can use the bigger brakes off of a later model VW with little or no modification, I think that the use of Porsche parts will end up costing you more than it's worth in terms of performance. I wouldn't want to go through all of that just to run a certain set of wheels. You can make that Chasis perform very well on the cheap, it seems counterproductive to reengineer the suspension.

[Greg Amy]

I agree with Cameron. The 11" Scirocco 16V brakes simply bolt right on. Coupled ot the rear discs that's PLENTY of brake for that chassis (I installed 'em on my '84 GTi.) - GA

[Bill Miller]

Actually, the 16v Scirocco brakes are 10.1 inch (stock GTI are 9.4). The 11.1 inch brakes weren't available until the Corrados came out. Also, while similar, the 944 arms are not a straight bolt-up.

How you implement some of the things you've mentioned, depends on what class you're going to run in, and what ruleset you're going to be bound by. If you're willing to do some fabrication, and accept the fact that you're probably going to end up in a highly modified class. You can fab tubular front control arms, and use knuckles off a VR6 Corrado (5-lug). This will give you the 5-lug conversion you want, as well as the 11 inch brakes. I haven't looked into what it would take to run 5-lug hubs on the rear. I don't know if you could just use VR6 Corrado rear hubs or not. While I'm not a fan of them, you can get 4-lug to 5-lug conversion spacers. I think H&R may make them. I wouldn't use them of a full-out race car, but they may be adequate for auto-x.

I don't know if you can get 'phone dials' in the right offset or not. Most FWD cars run wheels in the ET33-43 offset range. Stock A1 GTI wheels are ET38. Most RWD cars run wheels in the ET0-25 offset range. I don't what offset you can get phone dials in.

For the cage, go to a local fab shop that does road-race cars, and have a custom cage put in. It'll fit the car better, and work better.

Unfortunately, I have no input on the dash choice.

[shwah]

Convert the rear to disk - easiest way is to bolt up the whole rear axle beam from a Scirocco 16v.

Then just install rotors from a VR6 Golf 3 and you have 5 lug rears.

:023:

[Bill Miller]

DOH! There was a senior moment! Forgot that there are no rear hubs on a VW, the inner and outer bearing press into the rotor, and that mounts on the stub axle.

So yes, you should be able to pull any 9.4 5-lug rear disc, and use that, so long as the stub axle size is the same.

[nordtexan]

Thanks, Guys! All good info. I should have started to say that I did bolt up the underpinnings from a Scirocco already, but thought that bigger would be better. Sounds like from your collective experience the 10.1 fronts might be enough with the tiny discs on back. I might look into the stub axles on the Corrado, though. When I compared my Boxster to the GTI/Scirocco calipers, I was really not impressed. I guess the weight difference is really the key. As far as rims, I guess the esoteric side of me prefers the phone dials, but I guess like my other car, I'll just get a set of track tires/rims for special use and spacers for "cruising."

As I mentioned, I won't be allowed in any sanctioned class racing as I also intend to make a swap to a 16v motor. Really, this is just a toy to release aggression and frustrations safely. Ultimately after much more seat time, I intend to buy an old GTI Cup car and get my SCCA's license.

[burban]

I've got a project similar to yours its a first generation scirocco 79"body I seam welde the whole chassis and put in a chrome-moly cage. On the front suspension, I used the front a1 arm with a2 ends welded on and extended 12mm a side I used late A2 spindles and fabricated weld-on ball joint spacers to allow the car to sit lower without losing the f/e geometry the A2 spindles have a lower tie rod attachement and I used this to line up the spaceing incrememt as to not introduce bump-steer. Brakes, I used a late model rear stub axles to do rear discs with Wilwood dynalite singles and 11" fron discs with with wilwood dynalite 2's in front. to keep things simple I'm running a high compression 2.0L 8v rather than a 16V and an 8v is 34lbs lighter.

[nordtexan]

Thanks Burban. You sound a bit more advanced on the technical scale than am I. Sounds like a fun project you have going. Course the weight penalty of the chromoly cage will negate the lighter engine and the greater torque and hp will make mine faster. ;-)

[nordtexan]

Sorry Burban, but that was a prod to a flame war. It seems that everytime someone on vortex talks about a 16v, they always throw in how their 8v is faster/better. I understand the difference between the two, but I just thougth I would throw a little needle. I also just read an article about how emails & electronic communication have the same odds as a coin toss in conveying the intended meaning. For that, I apologize for sounding like an a$$.

I am moving forward on the project and I going to try and get ahold of 5 lug rear disks and see if the spindles are a direct fit to the rear suspension bar.(as mentioned, I already have the entire 16v Scirocco rear suspension and brakes, but want 5 instead of 4 lug.)

Has anyone had success in buying a roll cage from an "out of state" vendor? I am trying to see if it makes sense to pay up locally or can you get a good deal from an online vendor and come out ahead after shipping.

Thanks.

[Bildon]

You may want to look into these VW 4 to 5 lug conversion hubs...
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/DetailsList....407.615ES&Nav=5 (http://www.bildon.com/catalog/DetailsList.cfm?ID=357.407.615ES&Nav=5)

[psykokid]

Sorry Burban, but that was a prod to a flame war. It seems that everytime someone on vortex talks about a 16v, they always throw in how their 8v is faster/better. I understand the difference between the two, but I just thougth I would throw a little needle. I also just read an article about how emails & electronic communication have the same odds as a coin toss in conveying the intended meaning. For that, I apologize for sounding like an a$$.

I am moving forward on the project and I going to try and get ahold of 5 lug rear disks and see if the spindles are a direct fit to the rear suspension bar.(as mentioned, I already have the entire 16v Scirocco rear suspension and brakes, but want 5 instead of 4 lug.)

Has anyone had success in buying a roll cage from an "out of state" vendor? I am trying to see if it makes sense to pay up locally or can you get a good deal from an online vendor and come out ahead after shipping.

Thanks.
[/b]

since you already have the disc rear spindles, save your self some time and money and just get the 5 lug rear rotors and new bearings as the stub axle is the same between 4 and 5 lug discs. the only difference between the two being the amount of holes drilled in the rotor.

[nordtexan]

Thanks Psychokid! That was the answer I was looking for.

I think several folks alluded to this, but I didn't ever seem to catch the point that they were driving to. I will buy the disks and bearings then for the rear.

I am still lost relative to the front, though. I was trading comm's w/Bildon, but I never got in plain english whether their product was for the front or rear or both. If I have the rears nailed down, then I am still looking for a way to get 5 lugs up front. As previously mentioned, I have the front suspension off a 16v Scirocco as well. Therefore, is there an easy way to achieve 5 lug's on the front with what I have? Or do I need to buy new spindles/knuckles/or what-ever the proper terminology for the accommodating components.

Cheers to all and a big thanks for everyone's time, patience and help.

Hope to see you all at the track by the year's end.

In case Chuck Davis frequents this group, I still haven't put the tranny in the car. It's killing me!

Jack

[JamesB]

It depends, people have taken differnt approaches. Some make a custom hub to fit the mk1 spindels, others swap for mk2 spindels which I believe will take the hub and bearing of a corrado vr6, which also requires its outer CV joint be used.

Bildons setup you need late model MK2 hubs which as far as I can recall will bolt direclty up to the scirocco suspension and steering rack. Then you install the hub and bearing setup from bildon and use a 5 lug brake roter. The smallest rotor is 11" from a corrado so you will need to change caliper carriers.

[shwah]

The 16v Scirocco does have the bigger front hubs already, so there should be no need to change over to later A2 stuff.

[JamesB]

correctly, however, Bildons product is very specific for a reason, but you should ask him why as I am no expert on VW spindles I just know how to care for my car.

[burban]

If you are going to run A2 hubs you need to make a tierod ball joint spacer as the A2 hubs have the
steering arm in a different height location than the A1's, I used A2 hubs and made it into a drop spindle to bring the car down with over angling the front arms. I'm running 16V scirocco CV shafts

PS I wasn't going to fight, people get all freaky on the particular powertrain choices,

[JamesB]

you wont get that here. People run the motor for their class. I run an 8v for ITB, if I was in ITA I would run a 16v. Each have its own needs to stay reliable but the 8v is a bit easier to care for. 16v motors can be picky but if your picky like me you can keep them humming really well.

good luck with your builds guys.

[nordtexan]

Thanks for the kind words and inspiration. I just bought from another member thru another thread an Autopower roll cage. It's in Cinncinati, but should be shipped down in a couple of weeks. About that time the body will be heading to get media blasted and have the cage installed.

Still making sense of the suspension options, but they seem to be coming together.

I guess the last two question that I have center around spring/strut/shock combo's or coil-overs and offsets for rims. Has anyone run wider than stock snowflakes and had rubbing issues? I perceive that coilovers with their smaller diameter springs will allow a wider rim, but I have no practical knowledge to back that up. Any experience out there?

:birra:

[JamesB]

well if they will bolt up (I would have to check) have a sleaved shock setup from ground control. It has boge turbo rears (good for up to 300lb springs.) and bilstien sport inserts (you can have then revalved to any rate you want.) I have some 250# springs, but you would need to buy something heavier for the front (only had 3 sets of springs and 2 sets are on my car.)

If your interested I will snap a few pictures after I get from the track this weekend.

[burban]

Since my car has been retired and is now a personal track car I'm running 15x7 kosei K-1's 38mm
offset I've cut the flanges on my front fenders and shortened and rolled the rears, I've test fit a set of k-1's for BMW 2002 same bolt pattern 25mm offset, rears fit but your limited to how nuch you lower your ride height , a 30-32mm offset on a 7" rim would fit the best but other than 3-piece wheels that offset id ard to find.

ps. and 15x7 -ET38mm with a 225/40/15 hoosier is extremely tight on the clearance to the strut,(running coil-overs) clearanced upper strut towers allow the camber plates to be adjusted with more angle to clear this combo.

[nordtexan]

I have been off the site for a while. Our little boy is growing up so fast that I am trying to spend more time with him before he is off to college!(He just turned 9 mo's last week.)

Thanks again for the great info Burban. I'll keep that in mind.

Also, James, unless there is a racing secret that you are not wanting to divulge to me, I would appreciate any photos. The more I see the better I can finalize my plans. Since I will probably be involving a race shop to help out with any technical details, a photo will explain what I am not technically knowledgable/capable of expressing.

Thanks again to all who have read and posted. I am soon taking the chassis to the shop for blasting and welding the cage in. Thanks Ken for the great Autopower cage at a bargain!

I am starting a new thread regarding "home made" paint jobs. Please feel free to chime in with any experiences that you all might have.

Cheers,
Jack