Curious about KA24DE classing.

[turboICE]

It has always surprised me that the DE was up classed entirely.

I guess my view on the OEM 15HP difference even if widened to a 20HP difference in IT full build is that the full class up wasn't justified.

One explanation given to me was that at the time of classing DOHC was considered so high tech that it just had to be ITS. No idea if it was any basis or not.

I have been told that DOHC or not the throttle body housing is restrictive to ever experiencing the full benefits of the DE head. As well I have heard that there aren't any known S14's that can make ITS weight.

I am just curious with all the process activity why those running the DE in ITS wouldn't have asked for an ITA classing with a weight some X pounds over the E motor? Too heavy? Want to run the S chasis in ITS against the Mazdas and Bimmers anyway?

Just hypothetically what would the wieght of a KA24DE 240SX be under the new process if it was ITA instead?

[zracre]

Putting that car in ITA would take all the 12 valve cars down a notch...the car runs decent (its no front runner) in ITS...Chris Newberry did a good job with one...with a few adjustments in weight it should be a good car for ITS. I think all the 4 cyl cars in ITS need alittle help. The carbed rotarys seem to have a problem making torque (hp is good) to be competitive in ITA but fuel injection obviosly helps (huge brakes and better suspension too). Same deal with GSR vs non GSR with hondas...GSR makes lots of power but same torque as non GSR so lap times are close... another two pennies B)

[Joe Harlan]

Ed I do agree the car is to much for ITA but I also agree that most folks are struggling to get them to ITS weight..(S/14) I would think that a move to ITA could and should be considered with an SIR to cap them to HP numbers that would fit the class. That may sound a little funny but I have raced an S14 at 2900 lbs and would not do it again. I built the engine in Darins car and I believe I could still squeeze a little more out of it which would take it above ITA but it would not be enough to have a shot at the front of S. This is why I would go for the SIR I think if the HP were limited to the 12 valve it would be a good ITS car.

[erlrich]

It has always surprised me that the DE was up classed entirely.

I guess my view on the OEM 15HP difference even if widened to a 20HP difference in IT full build is that the full class up wasn't justified.[/b]

Just guessing Ed, but I would think that the E motor is probably right at the ceiling for HP in ITA, and therefore anything above that would automatically get bumped to S.



Just hypothetically what would the wieght of a KA24DE 240SX be under the new process if it was ITA instead?
[/b]

Again just a guess, but I would bet you'd be looking at a car in the 2,800 - 2,900 lb. range. As Joe mentioned, I'm not sure the car would handle or stop very well at that weight. I think the car would be in the same situation in ITA as the Bimmer is in ITS, and would have to get the same treatment.

Of course, 2,900 lbs. would be nice if you ever needed to move a 2,200 lb. Miata or CRX out of the way ;)

[turboICE]

Joe, I hoped to hear from you on the topic, since even working/fielding these cars you approach their treatment in class and rules in an almost objective disinterested fashion.

I assume you mean good ITA car in the last sentence. ;)

Wow, that was a response that I definitely wouldn't have expected.

So the IT potential power is enough that the weight would be quite a lot in ITA targets? 2900 lbs?

Skip any other reason that could have been given, it is justifiably outside the ITA window if that would be the resultant weight.

Extremely interesting that you would (completely hypothetically of course) consider the possible shift to ITA with an SIR for a car that can not realistically get to the front of ITS because it can't legally make competitive weigth for its HP potential, no matter how low they make the weight it in ITS.

You didn't respond in the thread on helping cars legally make their new process weights. I guess without disagreeing that what you mention is a valid method to address the car's classification, I would think providing more legal ways to reduce weight (lexan) in ITS would be easier to move on (given the explosive response to SIR technology) than a move to ITA with SIR.


Of course, 2,900 lbs. would be nice if you ever needed to move a 2,200 lb. Miata or CRX out of the way ;)
[/b]And given the sturdiness of the rear bumper would make an excellent brake for me when I go too deep!



Again just a guess, but I would bet you'd be looking at a car in the 2,800 - 2,900 lb. range. As Joe mentioned, I'm not sure the car would handle or stop very well at that weight. I think the car would be in the same situation in ITA as the Bimmer is in ITS, and would have to get the same treatment.[/b]

Probably makes for one excellent example of when else an SIR might be warranted. If ITS 240SX participants were to ask for classing in ITA with an SIR limiting to KA24E potential and resulting warranted weight - it sure would make their whining look rather petty!

Out of curiousity Joe where would you put an SIR in the intake?

[Joe Harlan]

Joe, I hoped to hear from you on the topic, since even working/fielding these cars you approach their treatment in class and rules in an almost objective disinterested fashion.

I assume you mean good ITA car in the last sentence. ;)

Wow, that was a response that I definitely wouldn't have expected.

So the IT potential power is enough that the weight would be quite a lot in ITA targets? 2900 lbs?

Skip any other reason that could have been given, it is justifiably outside the ITA window if that would be the resultant weight.

Extremely interesting that you would (completely hypothetically of course) consider the possible shift to ITA with an SIR for a car that can not realistically get to the front of ITS because it can't legally make competitive weigth for its HP potential, no matter how low they make the weight it in ITS.

You didn't respond in the thread on helping cars legally make their new process weights. I guess without disagreeing that what you mention is a valid method to address the car's classification, I would think providing more legal ways to reduce weight (lexan) in ITS would be easier to move on (given the explosive response to SIR technology) than a move to ITA with SIR.

And given the sturdiness of the rear bumper would make an excellent brake for me when I go too deep!
Probably makes for one excellent example of when else an SIR might be warranted. If ITS 240SX participants were to ask for classing in ITA with an SIR limiting to KA24E potential and resulting warranted weight - it sure would make their whining look rather petty!

Out of curiousity Joe where would you put an SIR in the intake?
[/b]

I didn't respond to the weight reduction thread because I really don't want see IT turned into prod. I have enough history to understnd that it started out with "i am just gonna put it in for a second" Now they are all preggo.....

As far as the SIR goes I really think that putting out in front of the MAF sensor will be the best place. Lookig at the one raetech desigh I could put that coned end into a Pop Charger type filter. The advantage as I see it would be that the MAF would try to counter the effect of air going sonic which may net one or two more HP at the end. It would also keep the motor from flooding the plugs when it runs out of air. With a little research I think people will get behind this technology but like anything in life nobody wants to give up even the smallest advantage. I like racing. I like building cars and building engines and helping the underdog at the racetrack. I really don't care if it is a bimmer or a yugo as long as it is classed fairly.

[murphyd]

Personally as an owner of a 95 s14 ITS car I don't feel that there has been enough development to the cars to warrant reclassification. I realize that the question in this post was why these cars were classified where they are. Again personally I feel that the car has been classified correctly. My experience, here in the SE at tracks such as VIR, Lowes, CMP, Roebling and Road Atlanta, is that with a developed package, including Driver, that the cars can be competitive. More so at certain places than others but that seems to be true with other cars as well. I believe the jury is still out on this issue. I, like others, would hate to drive this car at 2900lbs!! Let's keep developing them in S at current weight and see what happens. Just my 2 cents!

[Joe Harlan]

Personally as an owner of a 95 s14 ITS car I don't feel that there has been enough development to the cars to warrant reclassification. I realize that the question in this post was why these cars were classified where they are. Again personally I feel that the car has been classified correctly. My experience, here in the SE at tracks such as VIR, Lowes, CMP, Roebling and Road Atlanta, is that with a developed package, including Driver, that the cars can be competitive. More so at certain places than others but that seems to be true with other cars as well. I believe the jury is still out on this issue. I, like others, would hate to drive this car at 2900lbs!! Let's keep developing them in S at current weight and see what happens. Just my 2 cents!
[/b]


David, I am not pushing for a move just stating it this way. I think the package comes up 20HP short if you actually make weight. Now the is 20hp to a 240z or RX7. Having built a few of these engines I am pretty convinced that 20HP will be really hard to find.

[jamsilvia]

At one point I was really on board for the DOHC going to ITA. But thinking about the weight (especially now that the ITA cars got a bump) - I have to agree that the car doesn't belong in ITA as the rules exist now...and definitly not at 2900 lbs. And I do agree that the E is probably very close to the top of the envelope for ITA.

I can only speak from a limited prep point of view (of which there are many) - but my car with similar mods to a FC gets readily spanked (in a straight line....I don't think the FCs handle nearly as well, IMHO). If that can be extrapolated to the top of the prep ladder, then I think the car really is a huge underdog...handling or not. I at least have the advantage of having a S13 chassis - so I can closely make weight (but not quite)...I lose out on the wider track and bigger wheels available tho.

I'm one of the guys that think an appropriately sized restrictor based on your running weight across the IT board might be reasonable.....so I like the idea of the DE in ITA with a SIR.

My $0.02

joe

[turboICE]

I lose out on the wider track and bigger wheels available tho.[/b]
How so?

[stevel]

How so?
[/b]

I'm assuming he meant that because he has the DE in the S13 chassis. I assume the S14 chassis has those bits.

s

[turboICE]

Not sure if the S14 fenders are wider but track can be adjusted to your fender width with spacers or offset and the S13 spec line in ITS can use 16" wheels. So I didn't understand the track and wheel size give up on the S13 in ITS.

[Joe Harlan]

Not sure if the S14 fenders are wider but track can be adjusted to your fender width with spacers or offset and the S13 spec line in ITS can use 16" wheels.
[/b]
The S14 doesn't get the good early cams though.

[murphyd]

What do you mean when you said "similar mods to an FC"? I assume you mean fellow competitor. Not to play devils advocate but similar mods effect differnt cars in different ways. I agree that the cars are down on horsepower to the top cars in class, but again at certain tracks the torque and handling of the 240sx has, at least in my experience, been able to overcome this somewhat. I do feel that this car requires me to be a better driver to compete because of the lack of more HP. I guess this is why NASCARteams have so many different chassis' for the different tracks.

Joe Harlan- How much effect do you think the early model cams have? I have a friend who has a track days s13 91 model with an IT prepped engine and pretty much the same suspension as our s14 and I'm consistently faster in the S14. His hopes are to run ITS in the near future and we do a lot of side by side testing. Weights are close but our car is slightly lighter (150lbs). SO far this is where I have figured most of the difference comes from. Other opinions?

Nice to good discussion of these cars!!

[Joe Harlan]

What do you mean when you said "similar mods to an FC"? I assume you mean fellow competitor. Not to play devils advocate but similar mods effect differnt cars in different ways. I agree that the cars are down on horsepower to the top cars in class, but again at certain tracks the torque and handling of the 240sx has, at least in my experience, been able to overcome this somewhat. I do feel that this car requires me to be a better driver to compete because of the lack of more HP. I guess this is why NASCARteams have so many different chassis' for the different tracks.

Joe Harlan- How much effect do you think the early model cams have? I have a friend who has a track days s13 91 model with an IT prepped engine and pretty much the same suspension as our s14 and I'm consistently faster in the S14. His hopes are to run ITS in the near future and we do a lot of side by side testing. Weights are close but our car is slightly lighter (150lbs). SO far this is where I have figured most of the difference comes from. Other opinions?

Nice to good discussion of these cars!!
[/b]

David, The early cams allow the engine to rev a bit better. The difference in the S13 is it uses the same small MAF sensor as the early S13. The S14 has a late design that allows much better air flow. The S14 is cam limited. I have built a 225HP engine out of stock parts but it would not be IT legal. I gues the point is I am not sure you cn rub hard enough on legal parts to make the required HP to get to the front. I know the car is good on certain tracks but it need to be good on a larger average of tracks.

[jamsilvia]

Not sure if the S14 fenders are wider but track can be adjusted to your fender width with spacers or offset and the S13 spec line in ITS can use 16" wheels. So I didn't understand the track and wheel size give up on the S13 in ITS.
[/b]

The track is wider on the S14 - so yes, I can make the S13's track wider - but doing the same offset change to the S14 would result in still a wider track for that car.

My bad on the wheel thing. The S13's never came with 16" wheels - so I didn't think they'd be allowed to run them...and I didn't open the GCR when I originally posted.

[jamsilvia]

What do you mean when you said "similar mods to an FC"? I assume you mean fellow competitor. Not to play devils advocate but similar mods effect differnt cars in different ways. I agree that the cars are down on horsepower to the top cars in class, but again at certain tracks the torque and handling of the 240sx has, at least in my experience, been able to overcome this somewhat. I do feel that this car requires me to be a better driver to compete because of the lack of more HP. I guess this is why NASCARteams have so many different chassis' for the different tracks.
[/b]

Yes - a fellow competitor. And yes, I agree - the mods DO make power differently on each car. e.g. the FC's have a header/exhaust combination that makes a 28% gain over stock. Supposedly JUST with that header/exhaust change! And the individual I was considering for comparison doesn't have this top of the line job - he has the 2nd or 3rd best option.

For comparison:
my car: JWT ecu, HotShot headers, 3" header-back exhaust, electric fan, 160k motor
his car: header, 3" header back exhaust, elect fan, open filter air intake, 120k roatree

As to the handling-vs-power, driving 240's on track since I first started DEFINITLY made me appreciate proper driving style and keeping speed through the corners (compared to others I know that started out with AWD pitch-and-catch driving styles). And the 240 does seem to corner on par with the Miatas....which does say something about the car considering the weight difference.

In places like Nelson Ledges - the car can hold it's own pretty good, since there's so many long turns - and the track tends to favor handling (and proper shocks!!....holy bumpy!) over power. But at places like VIR full course - the gain through the twisties is offset quite easily by that looooonnnnggg back straight!

joe

[murphyd]

Wow! 225hp! That would be great! I have noticed that the S14 revs quicker and likes to go a little longer before shifting. How much is there to be gained in developing a good header? Tuning the exhaust? How about in the head with a really good valve job and some time on a flow bench? Your opinions of course.

On another topic- I have a helical LSD that I would like to install but it is missing the axle shafts. I know I can purchase these, but have been told that the axles out of a J30 infinity would work. Any experience with these?

[turboICE]

I assume the 225HP stock parts motor (not IT legal) is the S14 MAF and ECU (or AEM), with the S13 DOHC and the SOHC pistons. Which would be the best combination of 240SX parts - highest flow MAF housing, best cam profile and highest CR possible (north of 11:1).

[Andy Bettencourt]

Yes - a fellow competitor. And yes, I agree - the mods DO make power differently on each car. e.g. the FC's have a header/exhaust combination that makes a 28% gain over stock. Supposedly JUST with that header/exhaust change! And the individual I was considering for comparison doesn't have this top of the line job - he has the 2nd or 3rd best option.

For comparison:
my car: JWT ecu, HotShot headers, 3" header-back exhaust, electric fan, 160k motor
his car: header, 3" header back exhaust, elect fan, open filter air intake, 120k roatree

As to the handling-vs-power, driving 240's on track since I first started DEFINITLY made me appreciate proper driving style and keeping speed through the corners (compared to others I know that started out with AWD pitch-and-catch driving styles). And the 240 does seem to corner on par with the Miatas....which does say something about the car considering the weight difference.

In places like Nelson Ledges - the car can hold it's own pretty good, since there's so many long turns - and the track tends to favor handling (and proper shocks!!....holy bumpy!) over power. But at places like VIR full course - the gain through the twisties is offset quite easily by that looooonnnnggg back straight!

joe [/b]

As you probably know, this is a tough comparison. The rules don't allow for any internal mods to the rotory, except for upgraded seals. Common theory can be applied to these - they run fast when loose - almost best when they are about to pop. Just bolting on a good exhaust, open intake and a FPR can get you some nice gains. It's a chainsaw ya know!

I think the ITS S14's are one of the best looking cars in ITS...would love to see one up here in NE with some of the momentum tracks we have. I just love the coupe look of the S13 as well. They are sooo cool. Tristan's car is one of my favs.

[Tristan Smith]

Thanks Andy, nice of you to say that.

[Joe Harlan]

I assume the 225HP stock parts motor (not IT legal) is the S14 MAF and ECU (or AEM), with the S13 DOHC and the SOHC pistons. Which would be the best combination of 240SX parts - highest flow MAF housing, best cam profile and highest CR possible (north of 11:1).
[/b] Close there was some custom machining that went on to get the compression to 12.5 and We also squeezed a little more than factory duration out of it. You get the basic picture. Getting to a reasonable W/HP number may not be doable. I am still working on it though.

[murphyd]

Yes - a fellow competitor. And yes, I agree - the mods DO make power differently on each car. e.g. the FC's have a header/exhaust combination that makes a 28% gain over stock. Supposedly JUST with that header/exhaust change! And the individual I was considering for comparison doesn't have this top of the line job - he has the 2nd or 3rd best option.

For comparison:
my car: JWT ecu, HotShot headers, 3" header-back exhaust, electric fan, 160k motor
his car: header, 3" header back exhaust, elect fan, open filter air intake, 120k roatree

As to the handling-vs-power, driving 240's on track since I first started DEFINITLY made me appreciate proper driving style and keeping speed through the corners (compared to others I know that started out with AWD pitch-and-catch driving styles). And the 240 does seem to corner on par with the Miatas....which does say something about the car considering the weight difference.

In places like Nelson Ledges - the car can hold it's own pretty good, since there's so many long turns - and the track tends to favor handling (and proper shocks!!....holy bumpy!) over power. But at places like VIR full course - the gain through the twisties is offset quite easily by that looooonnnnggg back straight!

joe
[/b]

Yeah, VIR is a tough place when the really fast guys show up!! But it's only 30 miles for me so I show up, drive my butt off and hope for the best.

Keep the info coming!!

[turboICE]

Close there was some custom machining that went on to get the compression to 12.5 and We also squeezed a little more than factory duration out of it. You get the basic picture. Getting to a reasonable W/HP number may not be doable. I am still working on it though.
[/b]
Nice. IIRC the KA is still a bit lighter than the entire SR20DET package, so getting those types of NA numbers is killer. What was the intended use of the build? Customer? For the fun of it?

[Joe Harlan]

Nice. IIRC the KA is still a bit lighter than the entire SR20DET package, so getting those types of NA numbers is killer. What was the intended use of the build? Customer? For the fun of it?
[/b]
No I ran it in my RS car. I am doing one now that should see 265 to 275 at the flywheel. I will be all race parts though. I lso have started collecting parts to do an all out ITS engine. I will likely have to put it in Darins car mid year and test it. Lucky for me that he has wrecked and broken enough of my stuff over the years that I should be able to be comfortable taking chances with his hotrod... B)

[TBreu007]

...coming out of the woodwork...

I have a '92 S13 with KA24DE that I built for ITS. I've had it at quite a few DE's getting it all sorted out, so I can hit the ground running. The car has an overbuilt cage, and at my weight of 170lbs, I was under 1650lbs total for the car and myself. With a properly stripped/built car, there should be no problem getting to minimum weight on the S13 in ITS...it's another story for the ITA cars.

I feel that running with well built Bimmers with good drivers it an unattainable goal, so the RX7 was my main target in building the car. The RX7 is 30lbs heavier and makes just under 180whp in most cases. Few would argue the RX7's competitiveness. 240sx is lighter, has similar drag numbers, similar weight distribution, similar CG, wheelbase and a better rear suspension design.

That being said, what is the general consensus on the amount of HP needed for the ITS 240sx cars to be competitive in the current ITS world?

My car still has 3-4 track days of development before I race it, but the times are real close to where they should be in ITS. I personally want to see the car stay where it is. The intake rule change and allowance of underdrive crank pulleys does a lot with this car…these rule changes did very little for the RX7’s.

Give me a couple more months of development, and I’ll talk again on this. *Hopefully* I won’t change my mind and just buy an ex-SS car. Or blow everything I own on a DSR.

Tim Breuer

[murphyd]

...coming out of the woodwork...

I have a '92 S13 with KA24DE that I built for ITS. I've had it at quite a few DE's getting it all sorted out, so I can hit the ground running. The car has an overbuilt cage, and at my weight of 170lbs, I was under 1650lbs total for the car and myself. With a properly stripped/built car, there should be no problem getting to minimum weight on the S13 in ITS...it's another story for the ITA cars.

I feel that running with well built Bimmers with good drivers it an unattainable goal, so the RX7 was my main target in building the car. The RX7 is 30lbs heavier and makes just under 180whp in most cases. Few would argue the RX7's competitiveness. 240sx is lighter, has similar drag numbers, similar weight distribution, similar CG, wheelbase and a better rear suspension design.

That being said, what is the general consensus on the amount of HP needed for the ITS 240sx cars to be competitive in the current ITS world?

My car still has 3-4 track days of development before I race it, but the times are real close to where they should be in ITS. I personally want to see the car stay where it is. The intake rule change and allowance of underdrive crank pulleys does a lot with this car…these rule changes did very little for the RX7’s.

Give me a couple more months of development, and I’ll talk again on this. *Hopefully* I won’t change my mind and just buy an ex-SS car. Or blow everything I own on a DSR.

Tim Breuer
[/b]


What change in the intake rule do you think will help this car? Joe and I have discussed this previously and see only minor gains at the most with the air intake. As for the underdrive pulleys, I would love to get all the info about these as this is one change that I have yet to make.

[Joe Harlan]

...coming out of the woodwork...

I have a '92 S13 with KA24DE that I built for ITS. I've had it at quite a few DE's getting it all sorted out, so I can hit the ground running. The car has an overbuilt cage, and at my weight of 170lbs, I was under 1650lbs total for the car and myself. With a properly stripped/built car, there should be no problem getting to minimum weight on the S13 in ITS...it's another story for the ITA cars.

I feel that running with well built Bimmers with good drivers it an unattainable goal, so the RX7 was my main target in building the car. The RX7 is 30lbs heavier and makes just under 180whp in most cases. Few would argue the RX7's competitiveness. 240sx is lighter, has similar drag numbers, similar weight distribution, similar CG, wheelbase and a better rear suspension design.

That being said, what is the general consensus on the amount of HP needed for the ITS 240sx cars to be competitive in the current ITS world?

My car still has 3-4 track days of development before I race it, but the times are real close to where they should be in ITS. I personally want to see the car stay where it is. The intake rule change and allowance of underdrive crank pulleys does a lot with this car…these rule changes did very little for the RX7’s.

Give me a couple more months of development, and I’ll talk again on this. *Hopefully* I won’t change my mind and just buy an ex-SS car. Or blow everything I own on a DSR.

Tim Breuer
[/b]


Tim, quick note and I will give more thought will working today. The S13 is the car I would build if I were starting from scratch for and ITS car. It cleary has more of a shot and making weight and the 91 has the best cams of all years. Even given the poor MAF flow. The big air tube rules help but I have considered running a smaller diameter unit on the dyno to see how it effected the power curve in the engine. on the early car running through a 2.0 inch hole for a MAF to a 3.0 inch tube just seams wrong to me. The S14 really has to be rubbed on to get even close to weight but that's just racing and we all have to deal with it. I am not pushing to get the 240sx moved to ITA as I think it is truely a cr that has more than we have seen I am just not convinced it will be enough. We are continuing to try to find more. My deal is at the point that we are sure it is not a front runner I would likely request a move to ITA with a restrictor that would pull into that performance window.

[jamsilvia]

I feel that running with well built Bimmers with good drivers it an unattainable goal, so the RX7 was my main target in building the car. The RX7 is 30lbs heavier and makes just under 180whp in most cases. Few would argue the RX7's competitiveness. 240sx is lighter, has similar drag numbers, similar weight distribution, similar CG, wheelbase and a better rear suspension design.
[/b]

It's the 180 whp that I'm worried about. I think the ITA cars are running something like 160's whp when fully built. We'd need to get almost 20 more HP out of the DE.

Anyone running a built DE motor want to comment on general HP potential of the motor (I know exact numbers are many times considered a secret)????

joe

[slickS14]

I also own a S14 240sx ITS car and have had some success with it, I'd rather you guys leave it alone in ITS. I get beat at some places and contend for the win at others but the GCR doesn't guarantee your car to be competitive. I have no problem getting close to minimum weight either. I keep seeing these posts about the S14 not being competitive in ITS but I've only seen 3 in the country including mine that are racing. I finished 4th in the SAARC points this year and was on podium almost every race I entered. I can get spanked on the straights at Road Atlanta by most top e36's and RX'7s but run door to door or ahead of them at places like Roebling or Kershaw. Even the mighty e36 got beat at Daytona last year, considered a horsepower track, so each car will have tracks they favor and so will a driver. I don't see anyone contribute any factor of competitiveness to car prep, driver ability and experience, tires, etc.... Just leave the cars alone and race please. If you don't feel it's competitive then don't build one, it's as simple as that and the GCR warns you of that in the beginning. I feel very comfortable with my chances to be competitive when I arrive at a racetrack with my S14.

[Joe Harlan]

I also own a S14 240sx ITS car and have had some success with it, I'd rather you guys leave it alone in ITS. I get beat at some places and contend for the win at others but the GCR doesn't guarantee your car to be competitive. I have no problem getting close to minimum weight either. I keep seeing these posts about the S14 not being competitive in ITS but I've only seen 3 in the country including mine that are racing. I finished 4th in the SAARC points this year and was on podium almost every race I entered. I can get spanked on the straights at Road Atlanta by most top e36's and RX'7s but run door to door or ahead of them at places like Roebling or Kershaw. Even the mighty e36 got beat at Daytona last year, considered a horsepower track, so each car will have tracks they favor and so will a driver. I don't see anyone contribute any factor of competitiveness to car prep, driver ability and experience, tires, etc.... Just leave the cars alone and race please. If you don't feel it's competitive then don't build one, it's as simple as that and the GCR warns you of that in the beginning. I feel very comfortable with my chances to be competitive when I arrive at a racetrack with my S14.
[/b]

Hey CHris there is nobody trying get the car moved today. There is a nice discussion and idea sharing thing happening here. congrats on you limited sucess. I don't you should try to shut other down just cause you don't agree. While you may not see alot of them racing that sports car only lists the top 3 spots? Maybe there are more cars 3 rd and back.

[slickS14]

Hey CHris there is nobody trying get the car moved today. There is a nice discussion and idea sharing thing happening here. congrats on you limited sucess. I don't you should try to shut other down just cause you don't agree. While you may not see alot of them racing that sports car only lists the top 3 spots? Maybe there are more cars 3 rd and back.
[/b]


Joe either you were drunk when you typed that or your fingers got smashed at the shop today...LOL. I know it's not today but I get irritated when these discussions get rolling fueled mostly by speculation about performance that is one dimensional speculation at that. The comment about 3 cars meant that I only know of three S14's in ITS in the country and they are mine, Darin and David Murphy. I know that you know what your talking about when I read your posts and it's from experience but alot of folks go throwing in their pennies and all of the sudden I have an over developed ITA car. I just can't see why people discuss moving a car that has not had it's fair share of development that's all...not trying to be hostile. Why in the world would I want to bolt on 250# AND a $350 restrictor AND then drop down a class? You guys asked for thoughts and there's mine, leave the car where it is and let's race.

[Joe Harlan]

Joe either you were drunk when you typed that or your fingers got smashed at the shop today...LOL. I know it's not today but I get irritated when these discussions get rolling fueled mostly by speculation about performance that is one dimensional speculation at that. The comment about 3 cars meant that I only know of three S14's in ITS in the country and they are mine, Darin and David Murphy. I know that you know what your talking about when I read your posts and it's from experience but alot of folks go throwing in their pennies and all of the sudden I have an over developed ITA car. I just can't see why people discuss moving a car that has not had it's fair share of development that's all...not trying to be hostile. Why in the world would I want to bolt on 250# AND a $350 restrictor AND then drop down a class? You guys asked for thoughts and there's mine, leave the car where it is and let's race.
[/b]

Not drunk just not proof read....lol Nobody said anything about adding 250lbs. I said without the restrictor that's what it would take to go to ITA. I would rather see the restrictor if it were to ever be moved. I have been contacted by a few other guys wanting to build these but the deal is at this point is they don't pencil. I am glad you feel your on the right path but until I can make the HP numbers I am not convinced.

[jamsilvia]

I am glad you feel your on the right path but until I can make the HP numbers I am not convinced.
[/b]

Joe, what kind of wheel HP numbers can we expect to see with a well built DE??

joe

[turboICE]

And what type of bhp or whp would be needed for a well prepped, well driven DE to be able to shoot for the podium in a competitively prepared and driven ITS race group of BMWs, Mazdas and Acuras?

[Joe Harlan]

My estimates say 205 Crank HP at the current weight. ( cars cannot get lighter)will bring them into the current ITS window. I think I can get 195. The big issue for the S14 is the poor camshaft selection. While these are sporty cars they have a truck motor in them. Again I am not trying to move the car.

[zracre]

here are a couple of examples of a well driven DE

http://sedivracing.org/SARRC/2005_results/SIC/Gp3RACE.pdf

http://mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=193079

[TBreu007]

My estimates say 205 Crank HP at the current weight. ( cars cannot get lighter)will bring them into the current ITS window. I think I can get 195. The big issue for the S14 is the poor camshaft selection. While these are sporty cars they have a truck motor in them. Again I am not trying to move the car.
[/b]


Without getting into too much detail and stepping on any toes, I can tell you 205 crank HP in a S13 motor is very attainable in fully legal ITS trim.
One just needs to drop the money to the proper engine builder.

[Joe Harlan]

Without getting into too much detail and stepping on any toes, I can tell you 205 crank HP in a S13 motor is very attainable in fully legal ITS trim.
One just needs to drop the money to the proper engine builder.
[/b]

Well I hope that wasn't an indication that I am not a proper engine builder...:)

Evan you missed one: http://mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=193077

Now while Chris is knocking out the best effort I know of right now it looks like almost 2 secs off the fast car in those results? I hope you all are not telling me that's acceptable. I understand and am glad the adjustments are not track performanced based.

[zracre]

I agree...the 4 cyl guys are losing out not because of a HP defficiency, but torque... :dead_horse: and the DE motor is one of the best 4 cyl examples. we are not going anywhere unless the RX7 fattens up or the KA powered cars (and B series) get a diet :D wouldnt it be cool to see more than RX7's and BMW's at the front? the BMW may now be controlled but the RX7 will continue to open cans of whoop ass. The only other car I can think of that can hang is the 240z....with a full on spend lots of money every weekend effort...ITA had a complete makeover...why not ITS as well?

[Andy Bettencourt]

ITA had a complete makeover...why not ITS as well? [/b]

ITS had the same 'makeover' as ITA. There was just way more 'sore thumbs' sticking out in ITA that any class. Lot's of heavy cars and a few light ones.

The 240Z, the DOHC 240SX, the RX-7 and the Integra all fit inside the ITS performance envelope as currently classified.

The process is the SAME for everyone... :bash_1_:

AB

[TBreu007]

Well I hope that wasn't an indication that I am not a proper engine builder...:)

Evan you missed one: http://mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=193077

Now while Chris is knocking out the best effort I know of right now it looks like almost 2 secs off the fast car in those results? I hope you all are not telling me that's acceptable. I understand and am glad the adjustments are not track performanced based.
[/b]

Hey Joe, I'll take you meant that with a jabjab,winkwink,nudgenudge, but in case you didn't, I certainly didn't mean to knock (pun intended) your engine building skills. B)

That being said, I was 2 seconds off a very fast SS RX7 at a recent track event. I had spanked 2+ year old Kuhmos (he had new Hoosiers) and I was shifting at 6K in the final stages of a break in.

With full sphericals, the right driver :) , top shelf suspension, the right setup, lots of testing, and $6K motor, they can be fast. The SS and Bimmerworld cars didn't happen overnight.