The E36 solution.

[lateapex911]

OK, so the recent changes to the class structure have been received, in the big picture, rather well. Amazingly well, when you consider the number of changes.

Except for a select group, the BMW E36 owners, who have been, lets say, rather vocal in their ...ummm...disagreement.

So, lets just, for the sake of education, run a poll.

Unlike most polls, your comments are welcome, and post your class and car if you would like. For the sake of this poll, lets assume that there IS an issue with the car and it's fit in the ITS class.

(Note: to all you poll and policy guys out there, I have no intentions of being scientific and generating results that will be used by policy makers. I just want to use it as a way of generating ideas and getting discussions going on a new tack.)

Here are the options:
(It apears I can not edit the wording in the actual poll, please use the wording in #5 below instead., thanks....)
To solve the problem in the balance of ITS, I think:

1- The BMW E36 should be given a flat plate restrictor to limit power to that appropriate for the ITS class.

2- The BMW E36 should be given A Single Inlet Restrictor to limit power to that appropriate for the ITS class.

3- The BMW E36 should be given additional weight for a total of 3150 to acheive parity with the rest of the ITS class.

4- The BMW E36 should be moved to a higher class, at a weight of approximately 2600 pounds (for discussion purposes only), and have all restrictors removed. The class would be populated with similar cars of roughly equivilent power to weight ratios, with adders/ subtractors for outstanding or detracting physical characteristics.

5- The E36 should be given an SIR, and the entire ITS class should be required to run the same SIR, sized for each individual model, regardless of the need for one.

Thats it, post your choice, and your reasons.

[Joe Harlan]

OK, so the recent changes to the class structure have been received, in the big picture, rather well. Amazingly well, when you consider the number of changes.

Except for a select group, the BMW E36 owners, who have been, lets say, rather vocal in their ...ummm...disagreement.

So, lets just, for the sake of education, run a poll.

Unlike most polls, your comments are welcome, and post your class and car if you would like. For the sake of this poll, lets assume that there IS an issue with the car and it's fit in the ITS class.

(Note: to all you poll and policy guys out there, I have no intentions of being scientific and generating results that will be used by policy makers. I just want to use it as a way of generating ideas and getting discussions going on a new tack.)

Here are the options:

To solve the problem in the balance of ITS, I think:

1- The BMW E36 should be given a flat plate restrictor to limit power to that appropriate for the ITS class.

2- The BMW E36 should be given A Single Inlet Restrictor to limit power to that appropriate for the ITS class.

3- The BMW E36 should be given additional weight for a total of 3150 to acheive parity with the rest of the ITS class.

4- The BMW E36 should be moved to a higher class, at a weight of approximately 2600 pounds (for discussion purposes only), and have all restrictors removed. The class would be populated with similar cars of roughly equivilent power to weight ratios, with adders/ subtractors for outstanding or detracting physical characteristics.

5- The E36 should be given an SIR, and the entire ITS class should be required to run the same SIR, regardless of the need for one.

Thats it, post your choice, and your reasons.
[/b] WHy even have this poll? It is a complete waste of time. The choice to go witht he SIR is a done deal. As an ITAC member I would expect you to get behind it help the members understand it and move on. There is a ton on mental masterbation going on around here and while it may be fun for some I think it is very distructive to the process. I have offered a half days service to anyone wanting to go to the dyno. I owuld also help to fab what ever we need for silicon boots to fit the SIR. Lets get behind this for better racing and the general health of the class and bag all these jerk off polls and could'da should'da deals. It done so lets get after making it work.

[mlytle]

and the last option is not valid. running the same sir on all cars is useless. an appropriately sized sir for each differnent car based on its weight is valid.

[Bill Miller]

and the last option is not valid. running the same sir on all cars is useless. an appropriately sized sir for each differnent car based on its weight is valid.
[/b]


I agree w/ you Marshall. If you're going to put an SIR on every car, it should be sized based on the expected hp for the car.

[lateapex911]

Joe, I was just trying to get a bigger picture, thats all.

Listen I have complete faith in the solution, but I always try to look at issues from other angles, in other lights. the reaction has been strong, so I thought I might get a different view on it, thats all.

Agreed on the last item, I actually wrote that eroniously...the point would have been to apply the same standards across the board, each car getting the proper SIR to match the desired output.

I will edit it ...as this is more of a discussion poll it won't invalidate results.

[Joe Harlan]

Joe, I was just trying to get a bigger picture, thats all.

Listen I have complete faith in the solution, but I always try to look at issues from other angles, in other lights. the reaction has been strong, so I thought I might get a different view on it, thats all.

Agreed on the last item, I actually wrote that eroniously...the point would have been to apply the same standards across the board, each car getting the proper SIR to match the desired output.

I will edit it ...as this is more of a discussion poll it won't invalidate results.
[/b]

Well Jake my issue is that this makes it look like there is some sort of a choice. The SIR deal is a done deal lets make it work. Having an ITAC member present it like there is a hope for a stay of execution make it drag on and on. We need to get behind this as a group and help everyone to transition with this thing into the future.

[Banzai240]

Well Jake my issue is that this makes it look like there is some sort of a choice. The SIR deal is a done deal lets make it work. Having an ITAC member present it like there is a hope for a stay of execution make it drag on and on. We need to get behind this as a group and help everyone to transition with this thing into the future.
[/b]

I have to agree with Joe here... There is only one option that the E36 drivers will understand and accept, and that would be to do nothing to their cars...

Our direction from this point forward, which has been approved by the CRB and the BoD, is to classify cars based on a wt/pwr scheme...

We've adjusted IT based on this, and it WILL work...

The SIR makes complete sense for this car... and in light of the bitching and complaining that E36 owners did over the prospect of gaining 300lbs... I would expect it to be a more palatable solution... No way to say the cars are "unsafe" because of the added weight... Still drive the same up to the cutoff point, etc...

However, whether they want to accept it or not, it's the way it's going to be done... The only other alternative, without resorting to de-classifying the car from ITS or moving it to a class that does not yet exist above ITS, is to add 300# to the car... That's it... I don't really see any point in arguing about this any further... The rest of IT has to live by this scheme... the E36 can as well...

Also... The idea of making EVERY car run and SIR is silly... (being polite by using that term... )... It's not necessary... There is not another car in ITS currently that makes this kind of power at this weight... We can and have adjusted most cars based on weight... The concern over adding 300lbs to the BMW is what prompted the move by the CRB to use the SIR...

Sorry that it costs whatever $$$ that it costs... but that's what is necessary to make this a fair fight again...

[Bill Miller]

The concern over adding 300lbs to the BMW is what prompted the move by the CRB to use the SIR...
[/b]

And what exactly is that concern Darin?

And Joe, enough w/ the 'ram it down their throat' approch. After all, this is our club. If the majority of people would rather see lead used than an SIR, I would think that the CRB should respond to that.

[JLawton]

Jake,
I was curious, I voted, cool idea. :023: I'm not getting my shorts in a bunch over it......

I used to have an ITS car. It was a high end manufacturer. It was uncompetitive in ITS. So I sold it......

I'm all for holding judgement until we have at least a season behind us........

[zracre]

I agree with Bill....IT is regional and a big change like SIR seems overkill. The E36 would do fine at 3150 and I believe that would be the right step...not untested (on that car) technology. As I have said before this is NOT World Challenge, this is Club Racing. the cars are safe at 3150 3250 3350...they do fine on track days with full interiors/race tires/over the top mods with no brake upgrades/big fat passengers. So they are safe. adding lead is good enough for most classes, why use the biggest (regional and usually national) group of classes to experiment with a potentially expensive to develop and use item like the SIR?? It is going to scare people away from IT and think its wrong. My opinion.

[dickita15]

I agree with Bill....IT is regional and a big change like SIR seems overkill. [/b]
Evan
You could read that as IT is not as important to get right, but I am sure that is not what you meant. :) In out neck of the woods IT is the largest group and the best racing but there were problems with classing. If the SIR work as advertised this will make racing better in IT.

[Bill Miller]

Evan
You could read that as IT is not as important to get right, but I am sure that is not what you meant. :) In out neck of the woods IT is the largest group and the best racing but there were problems with classing. If the SIR work as advertised this will make racing better in IT.
[/b]

Wow Dick, that's some pretty serious spin. I'm not saying that because Evan agreed w/ me. I'm saying it because your comment comes across as "If you don't support the SIR, you don't want IT to be better." But, I'm sure that's not what you meant! :D

[Joe Harlan]

And what exactly is that concern Darin?

And Joe, enough w/ the 'ram it down their throat' approch. After all, this is our club. If the majority of people would rather see lead used than an SIR, I would think that the CRB should respond to that.
[/b]

Well Bill it's not the ram it down the troat deal. It is already done. You aren't going to change it with this poll. Thats my point. I personally don't care that your against it and would prefer to stick to the old ways of doing business. It is exactly that attitude that keeps our club from a future. And yes it is a club and I am a member of said club which also gives me a right to voice an opinion. The poll doesn't do anything other than create a false hope that there is an option. The other point is how many BMW folks are actually voting for weight here? Or is this shown popularity for weight just a vote against the change in philosophy by a group of people that don't like change of any kind.

[Bill Miller]

Well Bill it's not the ram it down the troat deal. It is already done. You aren't going to change it with this poll. Thats my point. I personally don't care that your against it and would prefer to stick to the old ways of doing business. It is exactly that attitude that keeps our club from a future. And yes it is a club and I am a member of said club which also gives me a right to voice an opinion. The poll doesn't do anything other than create a false hope that there is an option. The other point is how many BMW folks are actually voting for weight here? Or is this shown popularity for weight just a vote against the change in philosophy by a group of people that don't like change of any kind.
[/b]


Seems you're pretty good at spinning this thing too Joe. If you want weight instead of an SIR, it means you don't want change of any kind? That's a pretty big stretch, if you ask me. Could it just possibly be that people want everyone treated the same?

And it's your opinion that this poll is a 'false hope', and won't change anything. You may be right, it may not change anything. But on the other hand, it just may. There were plenty of people that tried to saddle SM w/ 'Regional Only', and that got thrown by the boards. I'm a firm believer in asking people what they want, and listening to the majority.

Don't get me wrong, I think SIR technology has a place in Club Racing. I just don't think this is the proper way to implement it. And, I think the way the rule is currently written, the design is too wide open. How many tech people are going to be able to enforce it, based on the way the rule is written? How the hell do you expect them to be able to determine what's legal and what's not? And what will be next, having the club spec only SIRs from Raetech? We don't even want to have that conversation.

[zracre]

I agree an adjustment is neccesary...just not this one. I bring alot of people to IT here in the SEDIV thru sports marketing and local advertising sponsorship...(I currently have 2 integras in my shop being built by newbies) they are constantly laughing at some of the rules...normal until they learn about class parity. I just think adding these things now is a bit premature. Adding a restrictor is definitely not within the scope of IT (SIR). The car should be tried at 3150, if that doesnt work then we exhausted all our options and should try new technology like the SIR. This is going to quell newcomers to IT as it complicates things to the point of why bother. I believe the car was heavier then lightened...then a restrictor was added. The car should have been looked at and had its specs redone with a clean sheet. If the car needs to weigh 3400# so be it...the current balance needs to be adjusted I just think this car went in too many directions. Yes this is a member run club so to be in the best interest of the majority of members, maybe a vote on what should be done if the rulesmakers come across a touchy subject like SIR? A web based vote nowadays would work as the Fastrack seems to be web based now. I appreciate all the hard work and time put into the process but maybe this is too fast...ok i guess thats .04 cents... :blink:

[Joe Harlan]

Seems you're pretty good at spinning this thing too Joe. If you want weight instead of an SIR, it means you don't want change of any kind? That's a pretty big stretch, if you ask me. Could it just possibly be that people want everyone treated the same?

And it's your opinion that this poll is a 'false hope', and won't change anything. You may be right, it may not change anything. But on the other hand, it just may. There were plenty of people that tried to saddle SM w/ 'Regional Only', and that got thrown by the boards. I'm a firm believer in asking people what they want, and listening to the majority.

Don't get me wrong, I think SIR technology has a place in Club Racing. I just don't think this is the proper way to implement it. And, I think the way the rule is currently written, the design is too wide open. How many tech people are going to be able to enforce it, based on the way the rule is written? How the hell do you expect them to be able to determine what's legal and what's not? And what will be next, having the club spec only SIRs from Raetech? We don't even want to have that conversation.
[/b]

OK Bill, Have it your way. I am done with these distructive go no where threads. I will still offer any assistance to anyone want help with their conversion. If you need to know where to find clamps silicone hoses ect. just E-mail me. I am not selling parts i am offer help finding stuff to help with the conversion.

And Bill as far as policing goes i bet they have a whole tech session at the convention on SIR technology...

As far as mandating a manufacture no I don't believe so. The right way to do it would be to run these through enterprises and let enterprises take bids on doing them. At least you would have some controll on them but I don't think any one is intersted in that move.

[Catch22]

Well, I voted for another class above ITS.
Why?

Well, as has been discussed here before, it needs to happen sooner or later. Cars that have been developed in the past 10 years have in general grown in HP and improved in design. This is the basis for the current difficulties in finding newer cars that will even fit in ITC and even ITB.
So, do you just shift everything down and obsolete the current ITC cars? Well, no. That wouldn't be fair at all. ITC isn't the biggest class out there, but there are still plenty of them and they are doing some great racing.

So, follow the times and add a class. This will suddenly open the door for newer cars, cars that have been IT orphans because they are deemed too fast for ITS (as the BMW *should* have been), and cars that are currently in ITS but carrying and ungodly amount of ballast like the Preludes (over 200lbs) and such.


Cars that might fit this class... Things with the potential for a little over 200whp in IT trim or damned close to it. Basically cars, that if the ITAC looked at them right now would either add over 200lbs of ballast for ITS or just not classify it at all.

E36 BMW
E30 BMW M3
Porsche 944S
Honda Prelude VTEC
Acura Inegra Type R
Honda Accord V6
Lexus IS 300

The list is potentially huge. Thats just what I came up with right off the top of my head.

[mlytle]

Joe, I was just trying to get a bigger picture, thats all.

Listen I have complete faith in the solution, but I always try to look at issues from other angles, in other lights. the reaction has been strong, so I thought I might get a different view on it, thats all.

Agreed on the last item, I actually wrote that eroniously...the point would have been to apply the same standards across the board, each car getting the proper SIR to match the desired output.

I will edit it ...as this is more of a discussion poll it won't invalidate results.
[/b]

noticed your edit jake. one additional comment. the last words of the option have a significant negative slant. "regardless of whether they need it". the point is that they ALL need it. an sir on every car caps the legal hp attainable by that car to what the itac/crb has deemed the proper hp for the cars weight and other charateristics. i has nothing to do with ultimate hp in the class or a perception of need. if everyone is running an sir and has a set weight, we are a little closer to having some sort of enforceable class parity.

[Fastfred92]

an sir on every car caps the legal hp attainable by that car to what the itac/crb has deemed the proper hp for the cars weight and other charateristics. i has nothing to do with ultimate hp in the class or a perception of need. if everyone is running an sir and has a set weight, we are a little closer to having some sort of enforceable class parity.
[/b]

I don't see how ( with the IT advent of SIR ) there could be any other way to do this fairly. Each car goes through the "process" and is assigned a minimum weight and a max hp to go along with that weight and a SIR to set the hp ceiling. Then every car has the same rule set and limitations to work with. Start in ITS then work your way down the IT ranks 1 year at a time. When a higher IT class is born SIR would be used to accomodate a greater range of higher hp cars in ITR or ITwhatever... If this "process" is largely about hp/lbs then make it so for everyone.

[dickita15]

Wow Dick, that's some pretty serious spin. I'm not saying that because Evan agreed w/ me. I'm saying it because your comment comes across as "If you don't support the SIR, you don't want IT to be better." But, I'm sure that's not what you meant! :D
[/b]

Hmm you are right Bill you could read my comments that way and that is not what I meant. I was pointing out that IT is important and deserves the best solution. but I do not imagine that Even meant to imply anything different in the statement I was responding to.

If the SIRs are as good as they say then it is the easiest cheapest solution to the problem.

you are not wrong when you say they are a gift.

it is kind of funny that you and the BMW guys both disagree with SIRs but you think they got of easy and they think they are getting screwed.

heck if they work can i have one and move to ITB.

[Ron Earp]

Another class, naturally, is a good idea - being one of the big champions of that.

But, the poll is slightly skewed. By offering a higher class as a choice it quite naturally draws some votes off that would have probably gone for weight and no restrictor. Essentially pulling some "IT purists" away with another class, but the higher class isn't essential to the debate.

Even so, the poll shows the vast majority prefer weight and I would bet if the higher class option were removed we'd see an even larger majority voting for 3150lbs.

Ron

[ed325its]

I vote to shut this poll down and move on!!!

I hear many of you,some of which may be ITAC members, complaining about whining by the BMW drivers, making derogatory remarks about the discussion and individual posters, and grouping us all together. It appears that many of those involved in the process just enjoy stirring the pot and keeping the issue hot and contested.

Give it up and move on!

[mlytle]

it is kind of funny that you and the BMW guys both disagree with SIRs but you think they got of easy and they think they are getting screwed.


[/b]

um no. most of us bmw guys agree with the sirs. we just are not happy with the lack of testing and the poor process used to implement them. (and i don't mean the itac classification process, i mean the implementation process (or lack therof) in putting them on one make of car on two weeks notice with zero testing to see if they really work.)

[Bill Miller]

um no. most of us bmw guys agree with the sirs. we just are not happy with the lack of testing and the poor process used to implement them. (and i don't mean the itac classification process, i mean the implementation process (or lack therof) in putting them on one make of car on two weeks notice with zero testing to see if they really work.)
[/b]


So I guess that means you would rather have 300# of lead.

[dj10]

um no. most of us bmw guys agree with the sirs. we just are not happy with the lack of testing and the poor process used to implement them. (and i don't mean the itac classification process, i mean the implementation process (or lack therof) in putting them on one make of car on two weeks notice with zero testing to see if they really work.)
[/b]

:happy204: EXACTLY! Scca please send money and I get you real test results. ;)

[Knestis]

To be fair, I can totally see how e36 entrants could be pissed about the process and short notice, even if they favor this solution over a sack of bricks on the passenger floor. It wasn't very elegantly timed but I guess the flip side is that too much notice invites second guessing and lobbying. It's a tough deal for the decision makers. I'm confident that the current ITAC is working in good faith, even if i have some qualms about why/how the CRB made the SIR decision, and about the impact of the move down the road...

K

[Fastfred92]

So I guess that means you would rather have 300# of lead.
[/b]


I guess it is all clear to me now, at the ARRC( we assume we have some of the best prepared IT cars around running what amounts to IT runoffs ) we had the dreaded sunbelt BMW on pole by a amazing 4/100 second over what I can also assume is a well prepped RX7, then in the race we had the hometown villian and or hero in his dreaded BMW whip up on the others and win with a fastest lap a whopping 4/10 second faster than the poor RX guys fastest lap. In fact in the top 5 we had BMW 1st and 3rd, RX7 2nd and 5th and old Z car 4th and all these guys fastes laps were within 1 whole second of one another....... I am glad these things are not based on race results but rather a "process" because the need for 300lbs of lead is very clear!

I say a round of SIR's for everyone !!!!!!

[Catch22]

I guess it is all clear to me now, at the ARRC( we assume we have some of the best prepared IT cars around running what amounts to IT runoffs ) we had the dreaded sunbelt BMW on pole by a amazing 4/100 second over what I can also assume is a well prepped RX7, then in the race we had the hometown villian and or hero in his dreaded BMW whip up on the others and win with a fastest lap a whopping 4/10 second faster than the poor RX guys fastest lap. In fact in the top 5 we had BMW 1st and 3rd, RX7 2nd and 5th and old Z car 4th and all these guys fastes laps were within 1 whole second of one another....... I am glad these things are not based on race results but rather a "process" because the need for 300lbs of lead is very clear!

I say a round of SIR's for everyone !!!!!!
[/b]

This is exactly why you can't use results for this process.
That dreaded orange BMW was on the new Hoosier and hadn't had any testing before that race. The handling was off. This info comes directly from that team.
So... I would counter your argument by stating that the handling was off and he STILL whipped everyone's ass. Not to mention that he lead the race from green to checkered, and could put distance on that RX7 at will whenever it got too close.

What all this means is that now, if your E36 is off or underprepared, you can't still win anyway.

Welcome to everyone elses world. B)

[Fastfred92]

This is exactly why you can't use results for this process.
That dreaded orange BMW was on the new Hoosier and hadn't had any testing before that race. The handling was off. This info comes directly from that team.
So... I would counter your argument by stating that the handling was off and he STILL whipped everyone's ass. Not to mention that he lead the race from green to checkered, and could put distance on that RX7 at will whenever it got too close.

What all this means is that now, if your E36 is off or underprepared, you can't still win anyway.

Welcome to everyone elses world. B)
[/b]

Catch
with all due repect if you buy what a team or driver tells you??? Chet ran these times all year long at his home track with THE most developed BMW in the country ( his RX7 rival was new to Road Atlanta)... I guess you will belive that with the 300 lbs he still would have won....

[zracre]

Ok this is silly...make the BMW 3150, lose the SIR and take the crazy lead out of the others! The prelude and GSR are waaaay overweight with the torque numbers they produce (maybe not hp) and they are FWD. That would make more people happy and more class parity. I see much weight off of some other deserving cars, but many are not on the list, but c'mon...the SIR was implemented too quickly without prior adjustments to the others in the class (see ITA). remember Club Racing not GT and Touring! I think SCCA should nip this thing before it snowballs bigtime and simplify the whole process now.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Catch
with all due repect if you buy what a team or driver tells you??? Chet ran these times all year long at his home track with THE most developed BMW in the country ( his RX7 rival was new to Road Atlanta)... I guess you will belive that with the 300 lbs he still would have won....
[/b]

Of course he wouldn't have had any restrictor plate at that weight...I feel ike a lot of people are missing that.

How about this info:


I watched Rob's race tape from the ARRC race, and I'm not sure that the RX-7 is quite competitive with the BMW... It made me frustrated just watching the tape, Rob would push everything possible out of that 7, only to get to the back straight and watch the BMW pull 5-10 car lengths on him! Lap after Lap after Lap. It was definitely the closest thing I've seen to a 7 keeping up with the BMW though, and I think I may just have to give the nod to Rob's driving for making that happen... Only 19 years old and already climbing the ranks. Rob, you should make that tape available to the ITAC... 2 great drivers (Chet HAS to be one of the best at Road Atlanta), and 2 top level cars. The tape should show exactly how they compare to each other within the current rules/specs. - Joe Moser[/b]

It would seem to make sense on a few fronts as the info comes in:

1. No testing on the new Hoosier slowed him in the turns
2. If he was interested in 'protecting' BMW turf, he would have kept that info quiet
3. Plenty of power allowed him to pull away per 1st hand account
4. The virtual dead heat in Q1 was when Huffmaster was tagged to his bumper
5. Chet's Q2 time was the same as Q1 as almost everyone elses was the same or better than Q1 - except Huffmaster who went almost a full second slower when not in the draft (but still good enough for the 2nd best Q2 time)

And a counterpoint by Marshall:

any lead the bmw had on the back straight was completely erased by the mazda by the time they got to turn 5. i could rewrite your para to show the bmw driver being frustrated by the superior handling of the mazda. [/b]

There are so many variables to take into account. Huffmaster might have been slowed by not being in the draft - or he might have been trying a new set-up that didn't work. Maybe his tires were falling off...WHO KNOWS? The issue is that you can't take this info as gospel until you know every little bit of info. It can be used for trending, but not for pure data.

On edit: I fully believe Chet's car to be 100% legal. Any car running for a win at the ARRC should expect a teardown.

[kthomas]

You guys have to quit using Chet as a data point. He is not like the others. :eclipsee_steering:

[e36its]

So I guess that means you would rather have 300# of lead.[/b]
I'm having some trouble following this line of reasoning... why is "do you want weight?" always the answer to questions about testing or the implementation timeframe?

tom

[Joe Harlan]

You guys have to quit using Chet as a data point. He is not like the others. :eclipsee_steering:
[/b]


How So?

[seckerich]

You guys have to quit using Chet as a data point. He is not like the others. :eclipsee_steering:
[/b]
Thats true--he is GOD in your eyes!! :happy204: :happy204: He is also smart enough to back off with a lead and do just enough to win. I have seen it first hand plenty and it is about time the field gets level. So why is it the 4 door only runs when there is a teardown and not the 2 door rocket?? It was sure available at VIR with York there and No Larry at the ARRC to drive it. I gave up more than Huffmaster at VIR to that car and was 2 seconds back on the grand course. Right on the bumper until Oak Tree until it walks away--And yes I have Video. Chet is a good driver and Sunbelt spends tons of time on those cars--but it's not all driver. If you can't use those cars as a benchmark--they are illegal--period.

[kthomas]

Thats true--he is GOD in your eyes!! :happy204: :happy204: He is also smart enough to back off with a lead and do just enough to win. I have seen it first hand plenty and it is about time the field gets level. So why is it the 4 door only runs when there is a teardown and not the 2 door rocket?? It was sure available at VIR with York there and No Larry at the ARRC to drive it. I gave up more than Huffmaster at VIR to that car and was 2 seconds back on the grand course. Right on the bumper until Oak Tree until it walks away--And yes I have Video. Chet is a good driver and Sunbelt spends tons of time on those cars--but it's not all driver. If you can't use those cars as a benchmark--they are illegal--period.
[/b]

The 2 door is Larry's car, not Chet's, and Larry hasn't raced it lately because he's been busy.

He is smart enough to back off when he can to conserve tires. The BMW will fry them if you run 20 laps at RA full bore.

You're right it's not ALL Chet- but he is the best driver, with the best engine program, with the best chassis engineer, and pretty decent preparation. At his home track. That combination is going to win the ARRC, like it did twice with a 240Z. To "level" the playing field based on that race is to screw everybody else in an E36.

[Joe Harlan]

The 2 door is Larry's car, not Chet's, and Larry hasn't raced it lately because he's been busy.

He is smart enough to back off when he can to conserve tires. The BMW will fry them if you run 20 laps at RA full bore.

You're right it's not ALL Chet- but he is the best driver, with the best engine program, with the best chassis engineer, and pretty decent preparation. At his home track. That combination is going to win the ARRC, like it did twice with a 240Z. To "level" the playing field based on that race is to screw everybody else in an E36.
[/b]

Well based on that I disagree. But since the effort to equalize is not based on one driver or one car i don't see it as a big issue.

If Chet has the best prepped and best driven car then he should still kick butt even after the SIR deal is done. He just won't have the ability to conserve and save those tires. Just like the guys that are chasing him don't get that option. Thanks for even more proof that the car needed looked at... B)

[gpeluso]

JOE,
THINK YOU SHOULD LOOK AT A SPEC SERIES IF YOU WANT THINGS TO BE EQUAL, BUT IT NEEDS TO BE EQUAL ALL THE WAY AROUND. DIFFERENT CARS HAVE DIFFERENT STRENGTHS. WE COULD ARGUE THAT AN RX7 HAS A TIRE ADVANTAGE, WHY .......THE BMW AND RX7 BOTH RUN 225 TIRES......THE RX7 IS LIGHTER AND THEREFORE WOULD BE EASIER ON TIRES..........HEY TIRES ARE VERY IMPORTANT.......BRAKING WILL NOW CHANGE ALSO IF EVEN MORE WEIGHT IS ADDED........LOOKS LIKE YOUR NOT EVEN FROM THE EAST WHERE MOST OF THE HEAT IS COMING FROM OVER CLOSE COMPETITION IN 2005 BETWEEN THE TWO MODELS. PLEASE SOMEONE MAKE A LIST OF TRACK RECORDS.....THIS CRAP ABOUT NOT USING RESULTS IS INSANE. HP TO WEIGHT RATIO IS ONLY ONE ASPECT OF A CARS PERFORMANCE. THERE ARE MANY MORE THAT ARE NOT BEING TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION. I HAVE A FEELING WEATHER CONDITIONS MAY FAVOR ONE MODEL TO ANOTHER ALSO(SPEAKING ABOUT HEAT,RAIN, COLD) RESULTS FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY SHOW THE EQUALITY IS THERE.

GREG




Well based on that I disagree. But since the effort to equalize is not based on one driver or one car i don't see it as a big issue.

If Chet has the best prepped and best driven car then he should still kick butt even after the SIR deal is done. He just won't have the ability to conserve and save those tires. Just like the guys that are chasing him don't get that option. Thanks for even more proof that the car needed looked at... B)
[/b]

[MikeBlaszczak]

Well, I voted for another class above ITS.
Why?

Well, as has been discussed here before, it needs to happen sooner or later. Cars that have been developed in the past 10 years have in general grown in HP and improved in design. [/b]

Yeah, I think that's the way to go. Or, to classify other, older cars, down as the newer cars fill up the highest class.

[Matt Rowe]

JOE,
THINK YOU SHOULD LOOK AT A SPEC SERIES IF YOU WANT THINGS TO BE EQUAL, BUT IT NEEDS TO BE EQUAL ALL THE WAY AROUND. DIFFERENT CARS HAVE DIFFERENT STRENGTHS. WE COULD ARGUE THAT AN RX7 HAS A TIRE ADVANTAGE, WHY .......THE BMW AND RX7 BOTH RUN 225 TIRES......THE RX7 IS LIGHTER AND THEREFORE WOULD BE EASIER ON TIRES..........HEY TIRES ARE VERY IMPORTANT.......BRAKING WILL NOW CHANGE ALSO IF EVEN MORE WEIGHT IS ADDED........LOOKS LIKE YOUR NOT EVEN FROM THE EAST WHERE MOST OF THE HEAT IS COMING FROM OVER CLOSE COMPETITION IN 2005 BETWEEN THE TWO MODELS. PLEASE SOMEONE MAKE A LIST OF TRACK RECORDS.....THIS CRAP ABOUT NOT USING RESULTS IS INSANE. HP TO WEIGHT RATIO IS ONLY ONE ASPECT OF A CARS PERFORMANCE. THERE ARE MANY MORE THAT ARE NOT BEING TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION. I HAVE A FEELING WEATHER CONDITIONS MAY FAVOR ONE MODEL TO ANOTHER ALSO(SPEAKING ABOUT HEAT,RAIN, COLD) RESULTS FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY SHOW THE EQUALITY IS THERE.

GREG
[/b]

As has been stated several times before. Results are FAR to subjective. To make a true comparison you would have to know variables that effect level of prep such as, header development, intake devel, tuning, ECU (or carb), shock devel, extent of cage work, weight as raced, ballast needed to make race weight, brake devel, front spoiler. All of those things and a hundred more that go into getting everything out of a car. Oh and then you have to factor in driver skill, luck, the other competition in the field, weather . . . and oh yeah, was the car even legal. None of this is on the results sheets.

In case you haven't gotten the point by now, there is no way anyone can accurately account for all of that, even if it was known. The process that is being used now and for the past few years strictly looks at the performance potential of every car the same way. It's not guaranteed to make everyone equal, but it's a huge improvement over where we were and far better than where classes like Prod are that do try to use race data to equalize classifications.

Vive la process!

[Joe Harlan]

JOE,
THINK YOU SHOULD LOOK AT A SPEC SERIES IF YOU WANT THINGS TO BE EQUAL, BUT IT NEEDS TO BE EQUAL ALL THE WAY AROUND. DIFFERENT CARS HAVE DIFFERENT STRENGTHS. WE COULD ARGUE THAT AN RX7 HAS A TIRE ADVANTAGE, WHY .......THE BMW AND RX7 BOTH RUN 225 TIRES......THE RX7 IS LIGHTER AND THEREFORE WOULD BE EASIER ON TIRES..........HEY TIRES ARE VERY IMPORTANT.......BRAKING WILL NOW CHANGE ALSO IF EVEN MORE WEIGHT IS ADDED........LOOKS LIKE YOUR NOT EVEN FROM THE EAST WHERE MOST OF THE HEAT IS COMING FROM OVER CLOSE COMPETITION IN 2005 BETWEEN THE TWO MODELS. PLEASE SOMEONE MAKE A LIST OF TRACK RECORDS.....THIS CRAP ABOUT NOT USING RESULTS IS INSANE. HP TO WEIGHT RATIO IS ONLY ONE ASPECT OF A CARS PERFORMANCE. THERE ARE MANY MORE THAT ARE NOT BEING TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION. I HAVE A FEELING WEATHER CONDITIONS MAY FAVOR ONE MODEL TO ANOTHER ALSO(SPEAKING ABOUT HEAT,RAIN, COLD) RESULTS FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY SHOW THE EQUALITY IS THERE.

GREG
[/b]

Greg, try unlocking the caps lock key and get some unleaded coffee. I have been racing and building cars for long enough to know that there is no perfect world including spec classes. I also understand how one car is better in one area blah,blah. When I refer to equalize (the word you keyed up on) I am referring to at least getting the cars into a similar performance window. You would have to have complete blinders on to say the current situation is any where near that. And dude your right I am not from the east but guess what. I get results i talk to people from all over the country I even get to dyno a few cars when I am lucky. Also there is more being considered than just weight to hp here I guess you missed that part of the seminar. In our kind of racing Weight to HP is a very large part of the classification process. Aero and frontal area has little effect until you are very near top end. We don't stay at top end long enough on most tracks to give real big consideration to it.

[Fastfred92]

As has been stated several times before. Results are FAR to subjective. To make a true comparison you would have to know variables that effect level of prep such as, header development, intake devel, tuning, ECU (or carb), shock devel, extent of cage work, weight as raced, ballast needed to make race weight, brake devel, front spoiler. All of those things and a hundred more that go into getting everything out of a car. Oh and then you have to factor in driver skill, luck, the other competition in the field, weather . . . and oh yeah, was the car even legal. None of this is on the results sheets.

[/b]

Matt, If you have any question as to the level of prep in Chets car you are mistaken, this is basically a Sunbelt house car built to the max ( professional level ) with one of the best IT drivers in the country, not to mention his home track. Now if you question the level of Huffmasters car then that is really scary.... I think it must be one of if not the best Mazda effort out there but remember it was said the he was fairly new to the car and never raced RA before, clearly a great driver in a great car. I know results dont count in the "process" but sure seems pretty level playing field to me ??


Andy
As for the 300lbs and loose the plate I thought everyone was of the opinion the plate did nothing to slow the e36's down anyway so again I ask if Chets car had another 300 lbs would he even placed in the top 10??

BTW I think Chets car was for sale anyway............ Maybe he will build a VR6 VW and stink it up again for the rest of the pack :023:

[Joe Harlan]

Hi Joe. Nice to know you are the smart one on all the different forums. Seems to me here in the Northeast the RX7's seem to hold a fair # of track records. And its not that there are not lots of E36's around here. Could it be the guy who can afford a BMW can just afford to prepare the car better than most other marques. I think you will find in any class several poeple who can just outspend most on engines and track time and tires ect... Its the nature of racing. Taking and singalling out any one car that is quite arguably no faster than another with something as drastic as 300lbs or an SIR is just a great way to chase poeple away. But guys, get out your pitchforks and go on your witch hunt. But remember, you may be next.
Chris Howard
[/b]

Well at least you signed your name this time. All I can say Chris is you need to be a little more honest when taking shots. You don't want the SIR for any car in any class and you have spent the last 2 years whining against it on the GT site. You are the same Chris howard that brags about racing a GT2 car with a 300 dollar junk yard motor aren't you? I have a feeling that competitive differences are not something you know a lot about. Please save your shots for somebody else I won't respond further to you.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy
As for the 300lbs and loose the plate I thought everyone was of the opinion the plate did nothing to slow the e36's down anyway so again I ask if Chets car had another 300 lbs would he even placed in the top 10??

[/b]

I can't speek to the in's and out's of Chet's can but I would assume it was legal given a teardown situation. I have not seen how he has engineered his FP restrictor so I don't know if it is defeated. I have seen examples of some that have been.

My main point is that results are very dangerous to look at on a single level. By some people 'rules' we out to have taken that E30 325e and put it in ITS due to its dominance. Plllease. Track records are even worse because there is no history to the level of drivers or cars in an area. I know 240Z's, RX-7's, E36's, Mercedes 190's that hold records currently...Does that mean all these cars are equal or does that mean we know nothing about the facts that surround them?

All the CRB wants to do is use the same process for all, whether that is increasing or decreasing weight to fit a profile, or backing into that profile by using an SIR.

AB

[zchris]

Hi Joe. Nice to know you are the smart one on all the different forums. Seems to me here in the Northeast the RX7's seem to hold a fair # of track records. And its not that there are not lots of E36's around here. Could it be the guy who can afford a BMW can just afford to prepare the car better than most other marques. I think you will find in any class several poeple who can just outspend most on engines and track time and tires ect... Its the nature of racing. Taking and singalling out any one car that is quite arguably no faster than another with something as drastic as 300lbs or an SIR is just a great way to chase poeple away. But guys, get out your pitchforks and go on your witch hunt. But remember, you may be next.
Chris Howard

[Matt Rowe]

Matt, If you have any question as to the level of prep in Chets car you are mistaken, this is basically a Sunbelt house car built to the max ( professional level ) with one of the best IT drivers in the country, not to mention his home track. Now if you question the level of Huffmasters car then that is really scary.... I think it must be one of if not the best Mazda effort out there but remember it was said the he was fairly new to the car and never raced RA before, clearly a great driver in a great car. I know results dont count in the "process" but sure seems pretty level playing field to me ??
Andy
As for the 300lbs and loose the plate I thought everyone was of the opinion the plate did nothing to slow the e36's down anyway so again I ask if Chets car had another 300 lbs would he even placed in the top 10??

BTW I think Chets car was for sale anyway............ Maybe he will build a VR6 VW and stink it up again for the rest of the pack :023:
[/b]

Fred, reread the post I was answering. The question refers to races all across the country so the prep level of one car in particular isn't an issue. It's the prep level of EVERY car at EVERY race at EVERY track. Again, it's just not practical to base classifications on that.