adding weight

[zracre]

Ok...now I have to add weight...the question is how do I bolt 160# to the footwell safely. I can understand the adjustments, but how come the 325e stays the same...i was just catching him now I doubt i will be able to keep up...

[Greg Amy]

Some suggestions:

- Use this as an opportunity to make some mongo-bongo roll cage additions. Weight strategically placed (such as rear roll cage crosstubes and possibly a "rear end crush preventer structure" will go a long way to help making the weight and improve safety (~50#).
- Re-install the spare tire in the rear tire well. I suggest using a stronger bolt than factory and safety-wiring it in (~25#).
- Accusump and/or fire system, mounted in the right rear corner of the trunk area (~25#)
- Be creative (~infinity)...

GA

[handfulz28]

Hey Evan, I feel your pain with that particular bimmer. I always thought he was running around in a "tweaked" ES, but I just realized this morning when I looked through the ITCS that everything is probably E-spec because they're on the same line. The problem is nobody else is running that car around the country, at least not to the "success" that he has, so the car was probably overlooked for adjustments. And he never leaves CFR because he's protected there.

Where I don't feel your pain: I've already been running 100lbs over, so I might actually have to start paying attention to my finishing weights :P

One of these days I'll finally get my Supermotard wheels on the DRZ; we'll have to get together.

Michael

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by handfulz28@Jan 25 2006, 09:14 AM
Hey Evan, I feel your pain with that particular bimmer. I always thought he was running around in a "tweaked" ES, but I just realized this morning when I looked through the ITCS that everything is probably E-spec because they're on the same line. The problem is nobody else is running that car around the country, at least not to the "success" that he has, so the car was probably overlooked for adjustments. And he never leaves CFR because he's protected there.

Where I don't feel your pain: I've already been running 100lbs over, so I might actually have to start paying attention to my finishing weights :P

One of these days I'll finally get my Supermotard wheels on the DRZ; we'll have to get together.

Michael

72059


The E and the ES are the same car, just 4 doors or two IIRC.

The 325e redlines at a very low 4800 RPM and only had 121 hp but 174 lb-ft of torque and an incredibly flat powerband to compensate. The "e" stood for "eta," which is the Greek letter for efficiency and was the theme for the 325e - only a 9.0 comression ratio.

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by zracre@Jan 25 2006, 09:42 AM
Ok...now I have to add weight...
72046

Pizza and beer. Works every time for me. :blink:

[zracre]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Jan 25 2006, 10:35 AM
The E and the ES are the same car, just 4 doors or two IIRC.

The 325e redlines at a very low 4800 RPM and only had 121 hp but 174 lb-ft of torque and an incredibly flat powerband to compensate. The "e" stood for "eta," which is the Greek letter for efficiency and was the theme for the 325e - only a 9.0 comression ratio.

72060


ok i just re-read the addendum...the 325e gets to LOSE 200# ...now what...the worlds fastest bimmer??? dean will surely massacre the ITS field now...he was almost there before with his ITA car....FWIW I have a 9.2 comp ratio...2380 1.8 94/95 miata has 9...

[Andy Bettencourt]

We aren't talking about the same car here. It's the ITA car that loses weight.

[handfulz28]

Yeah Andy, that's the problem. There's a guy running an ITA 325e in Central Florida Region that typically finishes somewhere near the top 5 OVERALL. He regularly pulls most ITS cars down the straights.
NOW he gets to lose 200lbs? I didn't see that.
Not that I'm trying to call the guy out here on the forum (I've protested him before and will do so again when I get the chance), but according to the guy's own Tell-Tale tach, his motor will spin upwards of 7k RPM in "IT-trim". I imagine there's a lot more than revs being made in "IT-trim"...

[RacerBowie]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Jan 25 2006, 11:47 AM
We aren't talking about the same car here. It's the ITA car that loses weight.

72083


Nah Andy, you guys are talking about the same car.

There is a REALLY fast 325e down in Florida. It is the only one I have heard of being that fast.

[handfulz28]

Just a recent example:

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=112370

[Andy Bettencourt]

I don't want to accuse anyone of anything but:

- When a E30 325e pulls ITS cars, you have a MAJOR problem.
- When a car like that stays 'home' - so close to the ARRC, you have weird coincidence.

AB

[zracre]

It is quite frustrating...I have spent a ton of money on my car since the ARRC hoping for a better showing next year there...I have had some great battles with him but still cant pull him on the straights. he holds the track record at Daytona and Sebring Club Course and his dad holds the track record at Sebring Long. I was hoping that the now faster car would be able to run with it but now with weight being added...I doubt it :bash_1_: wasted money. this is why people are turning to SM and other spec classes (self included)stack on weight, add a tweener and listen to the complaints until something gives...or people leave. I will try with the Teg, but I will probably try to run more SM this year than ITA as it seems to be getting silly. I dont know what to protest on the guys car and wouldnt without knowledge. I'm not against the changes, but adding weight to cars that have been there so long and taking silly amounts off of others seems like penalty time for people doing their homework. i'm no rich man and it took me years to build the teg to where it is now to just have lead thrown at me. I'm happy to see the MR2 lose some as well as the others, parity is good, but c'mon people...many people have been running the teg for years (not to mention the CRX...) and NOW a penalty???? please...what happens when you make too many changes at once.......you go backwards.

leave the class leaders weight the same

adjust the cars that obviously need it (MR2 Celica 1st gen Teg RX7 Protege etc)

add new cars and monitor...

I hear all this blah blah talk about performance potential...how is that calculated?? you have raw numbers of stock rated flywheel bhp...where in gods name do you come up with 2380# 140 CHP miata and a 2595# 140CHP Integra?????? :blink:

If Kip Vansteenburgs 99 Miata is any indication of what a 1.8 is capable of...good luck with IT.

[Tristan Smith]

Does anyone know what a cool suit system (loaded with water and ice) weights? Since I need to add a few pounds I might as well get something out of it.

[gran racing]

Evan,

You're talking about a few different topics here. How to compete against other legal ITA cars and how to deal with possible illegal cars.

Let's assume all cars in ITA are legal. Before these changes begining last year, ITA was essentially spec Integra / CRX. Yawn.


adding weight to cars that have been there so long and taking silly amounts off of others seems like penalty time for people doing their homework.

What about the people who were there before the CRX / Integra misclassifications? How many RX7 and other cars were impacted? Weight being added to these two cars is a good thing! You can't honestly say that these two cars did not have a classification advantage. And it still one of the cars to have. From what I've talked with some of the very fast Integra drivers (with very well prepped cars), it won't hurt them much. Some were not even able to achieve the previous minimum weight.

Illegal cars. This is where I can understand your frustration assuming it is in fact true.

[zracre]

thats why you take weight off MR2's RX7's Protege's etc and add new cars...my point is that the rx7 was a tweener when it was introduced...the crx same...the teg same (but pretty much equal to crx)...let the older cars that cant reach the performance standard lose the weight and add newer cars. Dont penalize a car (and driver) that has been running for a dozen or so years. To me it is too many changes at once. My point is also that they do not use on track performance (race results) as a guage. If they did the 325e would not lose 200#!! If they did they would see that a large percentage of the SE tracks have a 325e as record holders there. They penalized the Accord a few years back and stuck it in ITA where it was a back marker even well developed and that was simply one change...which they had to undo after all the people went and built them and spent hard earned money and got POed. now they went and made lots of changes. Im all for change. Just not so many at once.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by zracre@Jan 25 2006, 03:04 PM
I hear all this blah blah talk about performance potential...how is that calculated?? you have raw numbers of stock rated flywheel bhp...where in gods name do you come up with 2380# 140 CHP miata and a 2595# 140CHP Integra?????? :blink:

If Kip Vansteenburgs 99 Miata is any indication of what a 1.8 is capable of...good luck with IT.

72128


Evan,

The way it is calculated has been put on this site multiple times. You are getting all worked up over nothing. The 2380 Miata is in ITA and is 128hp stock. Kip's car is a 99+ and is 140hp but it's in ITS.

Does that help your blood pressure? :)

This is not a penalty. It's a correction of all cars using the methods we use now to class and re-class. Instead of a crap shoot, all cars are starting from a level field. Some cars have been getting a 'free' ride for a while and some cars have been taking one for the team for a while - well, that is all gone now.

The 325e is a seperate issue. The same specs that added weight to your car, decreased weight on that one...121hp stock. I understand your frestration, but you can't complain about it unless you are going to do something about it.

AB

[spnkzss]

Originally posted by Tristan Smith@Jan 25 2006, 03:32 PM
Does anyone know what a cool suit system (loaded with water and ice) weights? Since I need to add a few pounds I might as well get something out of it.

72133


My 16 quart cool suit system weighs about 5 lbs empty. 16 quarts = 4 gallons. 4 gallons of water = 33.36 lbs (1 gallon water equals 8.34 lbs). 33.36lbs water + 5 lbs system = 38.36 lbs. Give or take a little bit because you are not going to have a full 4 gallons of water in there and ice takes up more volume then water so it will melt and won't equal the same amount. Logically I would expect a good 25 lbs to be added if not close to 30 if you add a couple cold ones in the cooler for after the race ;)

[DavidM]

Originally posted by Tristan Smith@Jan 25 2006, 03:32 PM
Does anyone know what a cool suit system (loaded with water and ice) weights? Since I need to add a few pounds I might as well get something out of it.

72133


Not a bad idea. I may have to consider that as well. I've got a fuel cell, so can't add a spare tire. I already have a fire system, but I'd say it only weighs a whopping 15 lbs max anyways. I'll have to read the cage rules to see what can be done on it. The car is almost perfectly corner weighted with the spring perches at the same height and me in the drivers seat so bolting weight to the passenger floor is going to blow. That's probably what I'll have to do in the short term though. I'll have to say that this does suck for people who spent the time and effort to get their cars down to min weight (or bought a car at min weight like me).

As to fast cars that aren't currently at min weight, I guess they won't be any slower. If the car's at the front, but not at min weight, then making its min weight higher won't do anything to slow it down. I don't if any cars fit that description, just making an observation.

David

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by zracre@Jan 25 2006, 03:04 PM
...many people have been running the teg for years (not to mention the CRX...) and NOW a penalty????
72128
Evan, I've been fairly mum on this subject since last week, mostly because it would seem to be self-serving. However, this weight adjustment is not a penalty in any sense of the word; it's an adjustment to bring these cars back to parity with the rest of the class. You guys should be on your knees thanking the SCCA gods that you've had the advantage for as long as you have...!

For example, did you know that my NX2000's weight was adjusted when it was moved into ITA from ITS? That's right: I went through the same formulaic process last year, and the ITAC/CRB added weight to my car. I didn't hear any Honda drivers complaining about that...

Before you go off to the garden and eat worms, let's do some direct comparisons between our cars:

- Horsepower: Your Integra 140 stock, My NX2000 140hp stock (no advantage). However, I make a demonstrable 147hp to the wheels, and I've got it on very good authority that "well over 150 horsepower" (possibly greater than 155) is possible on the DC2 Acura. We might be able to get more from the SR20DE, but there just ain't anyone else doing development on this engine, and I think we're pretty good...

- Camshafts: 'Teg: VTEC. NX: Fixed (advantage, Acura)

- RPM: Advantage Acura. (The 'Teg engine has nice light rods; the rods on my SR20DE are actually heavier than a small-block Chevy's...)

- Engine Management: Lots of choices for 'Teg, NX gets to choose one vendor (JWT) makes one computer that I've shown makes no difference (unless I want to pay thousands to have a MoTec developed for the car). I tried doing my own ECU tuning last year and blew up two engines...

- IT Weight: Teg: 2595, NX: 2515 (Advantage: Nissan by 80 pounds)

- Suspension: 'Teg: multi-link control arm suspension, NX: Mcpherson struts all around. The Acura can lower the car as low as desired (maybe to the IT limit?); if I lower the NX much more than stock ride height the geometry goes all to holy hell. SIGNIFICANT Advantage: Acura.

- Brakes: 262/239, NX: 257/234 (Advantage: Acura)

- Trans: both 5-speeds with similar ratios. (No advantage)

- Final Drives: a plethora of choices of ratios for the 'Teg; I get to choose between stock or 4.437 (and I have to go to Japan to get that one, unless I want to pay to fabricate my own. Advantage: Acura)

- Limited slips: Acura gets to choose from anything. Nissan gets to buy Nismo's clutch-type LSD and nothing else (Quaife no longer makes one for the NX)

- Aftermarket support: SCADS for the Acura, everything from full-up suspension packages to bolt-on camber plates, to any kind of suspension bushings/bearings you want, to any kind of pads you want. NX2000? EVERYTHING on this car is fabricated (I even had to fabricate my own rear swaybar), and NOTHING available on the aftermarket is race-quality (it's all street crap). Hell, Hawk doesn't even make BRAKE PADS for this thing any more; I have tomodify very-close Mitsubishi pads to fit!

So, let's sum this up to the bottom right-hand corner: If I told you you could choose between a car that has more power, a better bottom-end, better cam design, a better suspension, better brakes, better final drive ratio, more choices in LSDs, and drastically more aftermarket support -- or -- an 80-pound weight break, which would you choose? And I why am I such an idiot?

Sorry, man, it's time for you guys to just suck it up and go racing; I really can't feel any empathy for you... - Greg

[Catch22]

Small correction Greg.

The ITA Integras are not VTEC. Just a plain old DOHC.
They are 1.8, you are 2.0, so you do get a Tq advantage. But I'd imagine both cars are about dead even in HP.
The one that folks think they can get over 150whp out of is the 3rd gen which now has to weight 2620. So even if they do get that kind of power, there is no p/w advantage.

Just clarifying things. You are transposing Hondas :P

I agree with you though.
lets take the above mentioned Integra and NX as a prime example.

Both cars have about the same HP
Both cars have about the same gearing
Both cars have about the same brakes

The NX has a slight torque advantage.
The Integra has a serious suspension advantage

It makes sense for the Integra to weigh a little more.

The only car that frightens me after this whole adjustment shakeout is the 1.8 Miata. No one has really done a killer car yet, but if someone gets the relative gains out of an ITA model that the top SM guys have seen in the 1.6 cars, there will be trouble in ITA land.
But, the Miata is aero hampered, so we'll see. I have full confidence that the Miata, IF dominant, will be "fixed" by our friendly neighborhood ITAC.

Scott, still looking for a CRX donut spare and lead plates, and being perfectly OK with it.

[Catch22]

And oh yeah... I don't pretend to be an expert on the 325e BMW, but I've been told by several people who DO know alot about those cars that they are complete Dogs. They won't rev at all. Kind of like driving a deisel truck.

The other thing I know about that car is that its very easy to bolt 325i parts to it and make big power changes. A buddy of mine and I researched this for a GRM $2006 Challenge project idea last year.

I don't know this person and I've never seen this car. But if he's got all those track records, is running with ITS cars, is turning 7000rpms, and was doing this at the old weight... I'd bet its got a 325is head on it.

[DavidM]

Originally posted by Catch22@Jan 25 2006, 04:55 PM
Small correction Greg.

The ITA Integras are not VTEC. Just a plain old DOHC.
They are 1.8, you are 2.0, so you do get a Tq advantage. But I'd imagine both cars are about dead even in HP.
The one that folks think they can get over 150whp out of is the 3rd gen which now has to weight 2620. So even if they do get that kind of power, there is no p/w advantage.

Just clarifying things. You are transposing Hondas :P

I agree with you though.
lets take the above mentioned Integra and NX as a prime example.

Both cars have about the same HP
Both cars have about the same gearing
Both cars have about the same brakes

The NX has a slight torque advantage.
The Integra has a serious suspension advantage

It makes sense for the Integra to weigh a little more.

The only car that frightens me after this whole adjustment shakeout is the 1.8 Miata. No one has really done a killer car yet, but if someone gets the relative gains out of an ITA model that the top SM guys have seen in the 1.6 cars, there will be trouble in ITA land.
But, the Miata is aero hampered, so we'll see. I have full confidence that the Miata, IF dominant, will be "fixed" by our friendly neighborhood ITAC.

Scott, still looking for a CRX donut spare and lead plates, and being perfectly OK with it.

72153



Hmmm...So how'd I wind up at 2630? I put similar horsepower to the ground. It's a Rebello'ish (built by an ex Rebello guy I believe) motor so it's at or near its max. It's a 2.4L so I probably get more torque out of it, but run out of revs sooner. These three cars (240sx, Integra, NX2000) seem pretty equal horsepower wise yet all three have different weights. What's the differentiator? I'm not bitching, just trying to figure out where the differences lie. I can't drive for crap at the moment, anyways, but I'd like to understand the competition.

David

[Catch22]

Originally posted by DavidM@Jan 25 2006, 06:28 PM
Hmmm...So how'd I wind up at 2630? I put similar horsepower to the ground. It's a Rebello'ish (built by an ex Rebello guy I believe) motor so it's at or near its max. It's a 2.4L so I probably get more torque out of it, but run out of revs sooner. These three cars (240sx, Integra, NX2000) seem pretty equal horsepower wise yet all three have different weights. What's the differentiator? I'm not bitching, just trying to figure out where the differences lie. I can't drive for crap at the moment, anyways, but I'd like to understand the competition.

David

72159



My guess is that two factors added that weight.
Displacement.
Rear Wheel Drive.

What do your brakes look like? Compare the listed sizes to those of the Integra and NX.
Also look at your gearing. The Integra has a crappy 5th gear.

[Greg Amy]

Definitely rear-wheel drive. I can't imagine anyone successfully arguing that FWD is anything but a detriment except in rain...

Corrections noted, Scott...! 'Cept I still think you're light on the power number... ;) - GA

[lateapex911]

Just to add my 2 cents..

The Tegs are noted to be very strong, and the math is what made to listing not the results.

But, look aroaund..the results are STRONG too!

The Tegs are making 155, no doubt.

Evan, I hear what yu are saying about taking weight OFF cars, but there are two issues.

1- It can't be done on certain cars. My 7 for example...I MIGHT get the weight off, but honestly, it won't help 100 pounds worth, because it will all come from the wrong areas, and the distribution will be worse. Other cars just flat can't take much more off. And changing rules, like allowing plastic windows is not in the class philosophy, and is a bad idea anyway, as EVERYONE would have to do it, and those who are already making weight would just ballast up...where they wanted to.

2- The 7 was never a tweener car. Until the CRX was added and exceeded expectations. Then the ECU rule was changed, and the CRX loved that! So other cars were added to "cover' the CRX. Which just hurt ALL the cars in the class. Welcome to the back, MR2 driver. Last place? Here you are Fiero pilot. And so on.

3- Removing weight is far more expensive than adding it.

OK, thats one more than I said.

In the end, bringing the top cars back a bit, and trying to help the bottom feeders makes more sense.

The BMW you speak of needs a SERIOUS look. There is NO way that car should be as fast as he is. The records are very likely bogus, and the penalties should be severe, IF what you say is true. Assuming he has had other fast cars run at the same tracks. Something is VERY amiss. 7K on the tach? They done blow up at that point. I have one, i done blowed it up...I know, LOL!

Don't let this get you. I fully expect Tegs and CRXs to be battleing for wins, but with NX2000s, Neons, Miatas, and maybe even an RX-7 or MR2. Really...it will all be OK.

[tdw6974]

Originally posted by Tristan Smith@Jan 25 2006, 03:32 PM
Does anyone know what a cool suit system (loaded with water and ice) weights? Since I need to add a few pounds I might as well get something out of it.

72133

Hmmm I'm going to assume there is no retriction on cooler size :unsure: So maybe one of those nice 100 Quart marine coolers filled with blocks of ice ;) Now here is where we need our engineer types to chime in! So as the ice melts and cooler fills with water the weight remains the same. and the in impound you can help your fellow competitors( after passing over the official scales) with some really nice cool water :). Happy Racing. TW

[Catch22]

Nah Greg, I know of FOUR 2nd gen Integras that are just plain built to the limits of the rules and are completely legal.

All of them are right around 145whp on a dynojet.

I actually don't believe the 3rd gen folks will get the 155 some of them talk about. Thats pretty much the same motor as the 2nd gen, and those guys would be ecstatic if they got to 150 (which I don't see happening).

With the exception of the 88 to 91 cars, you can pretty much reliably "rule of thumb" all Honda IT cars at the stock crank rated HP + 5 to 8 to get the IT prepped whp. The 88-91 cars seem to have been underrated from the factory. The STS autocross guys are getting around 110whp (2 above the factory rated CHP) with just an intake, header and exhaust. Top IT cars are around 125whp, which just destroys the notion that it only had 108 at the crank from the factory.

Examples of the + 5 to 8 example...

ITB 85 to 87 Civic/CRX Si - 100whp (92 stock)
ITA 92-95 Civic Si/EX - 130whp (125 stock)
ITA 90-93 Integra - 145whp (140 stock)
ITS Integra GSR - 175whp (172 stock)

These are numbers I've actually laid my eyes upon from top prepped cars and all are registered on dynojets. In some cases the results are from several cars that were all dead on each other, even with different engine builders.
Some cars respond to IT prep better than others. I have a theory that later Hondas (especially the DOHC Vtec cars) don't see alot of gains simply because the motors are so damned good straight from the factory.


Where your Nissans and Dodges and Saturns will get the Hondas is torque. I'm not sure anyone at Honda actually knows what torque is. They sure as hell never put any of it in their cars :rolleyes:

[Hracer]

Fun discussion to read! All I can say is that having seen the on track speed of an ITA NX vs the mostly Honda competition last year, I can understand Greg’s optimism towards these changes. :) And at the same time, being in the same boat as Evan and the other Honda drivers who are now looking for any good sales on 110+ lbs of lead, I understand this point of view as well. ;)

To continue on this fun integra vs nissan futile discussion, here's my contribution. For a long time now, I've learned to throw dyno HP #s I see posted on the internet out the door. Assuming they are true, they are extremely relative - from foremost the type of dyno used to, to the conditions, and to the calibrations of the dyno - to be of any use. What doesn't lie however is straight line speed out on the track. Going by this, there is no way imo that a 2nd gen ITA integra B18 would put out as much power as an equally well built 2.0L SR20DE on the same dyno, on the same day. However perhaps the heavier 2630 lbs DC (3rd gen) integra could get close to matching it. RPMs are pretty much insignificant to take into account, as long as the motor puts out the power it needs to, but since it's been brought up, the SR20DE's stock redline is 7.5K rpm (stock rev limiter is most likely higher), while my shift points in the ITA car come at a good 500 rpm or so below the nissan's stock redline. Bottom line, both power and torque are the Nissan's advantages.

Moving on, not an accurate comparison by any means, but my street car ('95 Talon Awd) with the strut suspension design does indeed behave differently, especially over bumps, than the double wishbone-d integra Type R I autox. So no question I believe that there is some performance difference to be had from a better suspension design. Advantage Honda.

A 5 mm difference in brake rotor size is there, but the 80 lbs of extra weight the DA and extra 115 lbs the DC have to carry around might just make it now an advantage for the Nissans.

Generally speaking, it's no question that the Hondas benefit from better aftermarket support. (Although we still run a fully custom made rear sway bar and header among other things.) Unfortunately, lack of such support can only be countered by spending a lot more money and time, but in the end it can still yield very good results - the two fastest ITA Saturns in the country, as well as an ITA 240SX's performance during the last few years are good examples that come to mind. This demonstrates that lack of support does not limit absolute performance, but just makes it a lot more expensive to achieve. If I had a money tree, there would be nothing more I'd love to do than pick some rarely built cars (and right now in ITA is filled of so many such cool cars) and give them an honest shot. The RWD 1.8L 2600 lbs BMWs and Miatas, the FWD Neons, 2305 lbs Civic EXs, and even lighter Proteges among others, all come to mind.

Other than some general comments on what it takes into account, I've yet to see the details of the "process" currently used posted anywhere. Although I may like to question it, my opinion of it is a positive one because even if it doesn't benefit me directly, the end result is that it does offer more choices of competitive cars in IT and that is certainly a good thing. ITA never looked so good.

In short, we all see things from our own perspectives, or in other words the way we want. But it doesn't hurt to keep an open mind and consider everyone else's, too. Plus for most it's still the off season, so more time for the internet forums. ;)



Originally posted by lateapex911@Jan 26 2006, 03:19 AM
In the end, bringing the top cars back a bit, and trying to help the bottom feeders makes more sense.
This does make sense. The wildcards that this particular statement does not take into account however are all the new cars added to ITA within the last couple of years. A good argument can be made to reflect the earlier sentiment on here about the danger of making too many changes at once. Only time will tell, so lets hope for the best.

[lateapex911]

The wildcard is not too wild. The recent additions have all been done using the process. This last big change was planned years ago. If it was rejected, we would have been screwed, LOL

[charrbq]

Andy,
I've watched the notorious ITA BMW run, and it's amazing. At Daytona, only a few 2nd gen RX7's and a certain notorious Benz can beat it. I won't say he's illegal, but everyone seems to think so. If the numbers that Evan sees on the tach are accurate, then something is rotten.

Evan,
Since this guy goes nowhere else other than close to home, that's a good indication for suspicion. If no one bothers to pony up for the knowledge to take the opportunity to allow the system to do its job, then it doesn't matter how much weight they put on your car and take off his...he'll still win. I understand your problem and frustration as you have to race him everytime you start your car. I've heard everyone gritch...you've heard them more...but someone other than the IT gurus needs to take care of the situation. If his car was/is legal, then the weight decrease would be welcomed as the car should be a slug.
I took this type of abuse from a competitor for years, and neither me or any of the other guys in my group would bother to do more than gripe behind his back about his legality. He continued to dominate the class and brag about his legality any time someone questioned it. I finally got my stomach full and nailed him on three different areas without ever opening the hood. Last seen, he was running GT in the same car.

Greg,
Face it, you're just plain fast. Imagine how fast you'd be in an Acura! I know, you just like the kinky stuff to throw everyone off.

[lateapex911]

Thats a great example of why results are not the deciding factor for classification changes.

Really, I am AMAZED that this has been allowed to continue for so long. There is NO WAY that car should run at tracks that are long. It's a torquer, not a runner.

Somebody needs to have a serious talk. Maybe the guy did something he thought was fine...?

[Racerboy03]

Getting back to the original topic, anyone know of good places to find lead blocks? I am in Charlotte, (aka NASCAR land) and near all the major distributors. I am going to check them out to see what they have, any other ideas?

-Mark

[R2 Racing]

As my car ran at the '05 ARRC, it put down 141whp on a Dynojet. I could see 145whp being possible but you'd be stretching for much more than that.

The power and torque of Greg's car made a mockery of mine down the straights if I wasn't able to catch a draft. Seriously, it had a beast of an engine. I didn't think either car had an advantage in braking. But, from the entrance of turn 1 through turn 5, my car would pull out on his pretty good. So there was definately a handleing advantage. Remember also that my Integra came in at 2575lbs after the race, so I was already at about the new weight for the car.

So I imagine after the ARRC, Greg went home thinking "Man, if I only had the handleing of those Hondas." just as I went home thinking "Man, if I only had the engine of that NX." But in the end, both cars were able to run pretty comparable lap times, and that's the whole point, right?



Kevin, who welcomes the changes!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by R2 Racing@Jan 26 2006, 08:45 AM

So I imagine after the ARRC, Greg went home thinking "Man, if I only had the handleing of those Hondas." just as I went home thinking "Man, if I only had the engine of that NX." But in the end, both cars were able to run pretty comparable lap times, and that's the whole point, right?
Kevin, who welcomes the changes!

72245

:happy204: :happy204: :happy204:

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by Hracer@Jan 25 2006, 10:45 PM
ITA never looked so good.
72210
Alex and Kevin, I think you'll get no argument from anyone on this!

GregA, whose new slogan is:

"If you're not in ITA, you suck!"

[zracre]

Hmmmmmmmm maybe an NX2000 in my future...I know where the perfect one is for sale down here........hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Catch22]

Originally posted by zracre@Jan 26 2006, 11:23 AM
Hmmmmmmmm maybe an NX2000 in my future...I know where the perfect one is for sale down here........hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

72269


Have you SEEN his in-car footage from the ARRC?

As Karl Shultz put it... "Yeah, I'll have a steaming hot cup of 'no damned way.'"

I watched him from the paddock and later watched his in-car. Greg is good, I've been on an enduro team with him, I know he's good.
But that car, at the speeds he had to enter corners to even stay CLOSE to the Hondas, was just plain awful. There's no damned way I'd even want to try to drive that thing like that. Yeah, Greg is good, but he's also a little crazy. He was wrecking that car at least 3 times on every lap, he just never managed to hit anything.
He plans damper upgrades, which will probably help, but its still gonna suck in comparison to the Hondas and Miatas.

So if you think and NX is suddenly "the car."
Go for it. Just don't get yourself hurt trying to go as fast as you did in that Integra. Seriously.

[zracre]

I like oddball cars...and that thing is odd...I get enough "girl car" comments from the Miata...easy to get over when you pass them...I worked for Nissan and have pretty good intimate knowledge of the SR20 (lots of standing water here in FL...BANG!) :blink: and like a challenge. I boxed up and sold the ITB Sentra project so maybe....I will also consider a similarly odd looking car but would be just as fun and hard to find parts for...MX3 v6. B)

[charrbq]

WOW!!! An Mx3 V6!! That's kinky to the point of bypassing the feather and going straight for the chicken! Would you care for a side order 30 lashes? :119:

[zracre]

I shall paint it lavender with a pink interior and a purple roll cage then accentuate it with teddy bear wheels...wouldnt ya hate to be beat by that??? hahaha :smilie_pokal:
although im sure id need an enclosed trailer for that one!

[charrbq]

You'd also need to pit a long way from us! We're good friends and all, but that's pushing it. Friends don't let friends drive in technicolor.

[JamesB]

hahaha, after all that trouble you HAVE to use an open to transport it. Just make sure the trailer has the classic nekked woman spash gaurds.

[lateapex911]

Evan, relax, stick with the Teg, go to the ARRCs, have fun....

IF you are the fastest Teg, AND you get your butt whipped, then you might have a point, but seriously, read what Kevin said. You're going to be fine.

[Greg Amy]

Hey, if it&#39;ll make you feel any better, Anthony Serra and I are coordinating meeting at his dyno shop and running both my car and his DC3 back-to-back. He&#39;s not convinced that my car has the almighty-power that everyone is concerned about; he just thinks I&#39;m nuts...(Hey, wait a sec...! <_< )

We&#39;ll put this to bed soon... - GA

[gran racing]

How much are tickets to come watch that?!

[Hracer]

Originally posted by GregAmy@Jan 26 2006, 08:47 PM
Hey, if it&#39;ll make you feel any better, Anthony Serra and I are coordinating meeting at his dyno shop and running both my car and his DC3 back-to-back. He&#39;s not convinced that my car has the almighty-power that everyone is concerned about; he just thinks I&#39;m nuts...(Hey, wait a sec...! <_< )

We&#39;ll put this to bed soon... - GA

72375

Hey that&#39;s awesome. And Greg, as much as I respect your 2.0L motor and what it can do, imo it&#39;s the underdog in this test against this particular car. I hope you beat it in torque at least. And btw you&#39;re going up against this work of art (http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1486498&postid=19447602#19447602).

I want a ticket too! :)

[lateapex911]

I predict the torque will be a draw...Greg will have just a slight edge there. But the HP will be over 150.

[zracre]

Greg, is that the same car he had at the ARRC?

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by Hracer+Jan 26 2006, 05:39 PM-->
...imo it&#39;s the underdog in this test against this particular car.[/b]

Of that I have no doubt. But, his car is the class of the field, and as much as we mandate that BMW drivers fully-prep their cars before griping about not winning, so it goes for us. With this demonstration you guys will have clear benchmarks against which to judge your potential.

<!--QuoteBegin-zracre
Greg, is that the same car he had at the ARRC?
Yes, #98, the black, silver, and orange one. - GA

[R2 Racing]

I don&#39;t think I want to know how much more power he&#39;s getting than me. Rumor had it that his old second gen Integra was putting down 150whp. I find that kind of hard to believe but I don&#39;t know, if money wasn&#39;t an option and I had my own dyno, I might be able to do it. Might!

I predict that you&#39;ll have more torque and the power numbers will be pretty equal. What do I win if I&#39;m right?

Actually Greg, I have to believe that you know exactly what your car&#39;s putting down, don&#39;t you?

[zracre]

In the Feb 2006 issue of GRM, they take a high mileage SER and bolt on some stuff...ebay intake, nice header a high flow cat and a cat back and get 135.62 hp and 123.31 lb ft....my integra before the rebuild (havent dynoed the final product yet...waiting for parts still) made 135.99 hp at 6500rpm and 127.94 lb ft at 5200rpm (dyno run done on day of ARRC test day). I have a not so good header but the head was rebuilt so I think my numbers should be pretty typical of a stock motor in IT trim before major stuff is done (the motor had 68k on it). I think your numbers should be right on his and maybe alittle more...147 demonstratable...what were the torque numbers? the GRM car seemed down but it is an over 100k motor

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by R2 Racing@Jan 26 2006, 10:54 PM
Actually Greg, I have to believe that you know exactly what your car&#39;s putting down, don&#39;t you?
72443
We pulled 147 the weekend after we returned from Atlanta. That&#39;s on a full-tilt-boogie built IT motor, brand new cams and rockers, etc.

The problem is that dyno numbers are like...navels...everybody&#39;s got a different one. The numbers you get are perfectly fine for you on that day, but hardly count as ISO standards. Further, I believe Serra uses a DynoJet and I use a DynaPack: the former drives off the tires, infers the horsepower from rate of acceleration and backwards-calcs the torque; the latter bolts to the hub, limits the rate of acceleration (and can actually hold it to a specified RPM), measures torque directly, and calculates horsepower (as is done on an engine dyno). So, same way, same day is the only real way to do direct dyno horsepower comparisons...

Evan, I don&#39;t remember exactly, but I seem to recall I got 147hp at 6800 rpm (and it falls off precipitously after that) and 138 tq around mid-4000s... - GA

[zracre]

I also used the Dynapack for my test. really cool set up. 138 ft lbs? you will do well against Serra on the Dyno...the B18 has a hard time with the torque thing...and if you can pull the same number...awesome :023: I hope Serra fixed his car since the ARRC...his new car broke (only time I ever saw it) but damn it was a nice looking machine!! maybe just teething problems.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I will also get my results up (dynojet) for my 1.8 Miata build with full programmable ecu. Greg will probably get a call from the dyno, but they will make it here soon after!

AB

[zracre]

I will post mine after the Hondata s300 and header upgrade...im hoping for north of 145 and at least 130 tq...the old numbers were good for 1:44:1 at RA with a stock gear...weight added and new gear+power+new springs+OPM LSD and konis, I hope to better it alittle :023:

[DavidM]

Originally posted by GregAmy@Jan 27 2006, 08:07 AM
Evan, I don&#39;t remember exactly, but I seem to recall I got 147hp at 6800 rpm (and it falls off precipitously after that) and 138 tq around mid-4000s... - GA

72462


138 torque? Thought you&#39;d get a little more. I guess my truck motor is good for something afterall :) .

David

[lateapex911]

I am guessing Serra will be in the 134 range for tq, and over 150 for power.

he pulled out of the ARRCs due to the machine gun rock blasts he suffered during the opening lap(s)...I think 4 holes in the windsheild and one in the radiator.

[R2 Racing]

Ihe pulled out of the ARRCs due to the machine gun rock blasts he suffered during the opening lap(s)...I think 4 holes in the windsheild and one in the radiator.
[/b]

Yea, he was right behind me when that showering occured. I had a perfectly good windshield before that race, but by the end it was chipped in at least 6 spots and cracked twice. My whole front end could use a repaint now too but hey, it&#39;s a racecar, not a show car! :P

[Greg Amy]

I had a perfectly good windshield before that race, but by the end it was chipped in at least 6 spots and cracked twice...[/b]
Ditto...

[R2 Racing]

Personally, I blame that damn NX2000. :P

Actually, I think it was Joey that ran off the outside of 5 on lap one and showered everyone behind him. I should send him the bill.

[Greg Amy]

Personally, I blame that damn NX2000.[/b]
Hey, you can&#39;t blame it all on Joe: if I&#39;d looked in my rear view mirror and saw that badazz NX2000 charging up, I&#39;da probably driven off the road too...

:023:

[R2 Racing]

Hey, you can&#39;t blame it all on Joe: if I&#39;d looked in my rear view mirror and saw that badazz NX2000 charging up, I&#39;da probably driven off the road too...

:023:
[/b]

Ok, that actually did make me "lol". :D

[Bob Roth]

ok i just re-read the addendum...the 325e gets to LOSE 200# ...now what...the worlds fastest bimmer??? dean will surely massacre the ITS field now...he was almost there before with his ITA car....FWIW I have a 9.2 comp ratio...2380 1.8 94/95 miata has 9...
[/b]


Its been a almost twenty years but I recall reading an article about the eta engine back in the 80&#39;s. I was curious on what made it so economical and i seem to remember that it had the lowest tension valve springs springs known to mankind. The reason why the rev limit are so low is because anything over 4500 RPM is "supposed" to result in terminal valve float. :119: I would be interesting to know if what I remember is true. And for those truly curious, whether these eta part&#39;s so offending to BMW&#39;s racing tradition could be easily replaced with more sporting parts from higher performance 325 series engines the as we know BMW probably "intended" to use.....

whatever.....

[zracre]

The reason why the rev limit are so low is because anything over 4500 RPM is "supposed" to result in terminal valve float. :119: I would be interesting to know if what I remember is true. And for those truly curious, whether these eta part&#39;s so offending to BMW&#39;s racing tradition could be easily replaced with more sporting parts from higher performance 325 series engines the as we know BMW probably "intended" to use.....

whatever.....
[/b]

so his car should not turn 7500RPM&#39;s :119: ?? LOL I think he is up for a wake up call soon!! ;)

[zracre]

So back to the subject... If I weld a bunch of bars to the right rear side of the cage (it may look funny but what the heck) as well as other areas...is that legal? Id just hate to be hit in the right rear so I&#39;m making it safer!! :o ...seriously though I have about 45# of lead in it now and need to gain about 115# somewhere. That is alot of cage! suggestions? I really dont want the silly tiny spare in the car but its going in...good for a few #&#39;s I guess. Also adding a coos suit (about 25# im guessing)

[Greg Amy]

Evan, the rules specifically state that "Any number of additional reinforcing bars are permitted within the structure of the cage." There is no limitation to the size (diameter, wall thickness) of these tubes.

However, do keep in mind the "unintended function" rule and don&#39;t be obviously absurd about it. Recall that last year a Spec Miata had a mongo-bongo kill switch plate, was bounced by a Tech Inspector, and it was upheld on appeal. I think if you&#39;re smart and reasonable about it, you&#39;ll be just fine. - GA

[JamesB]

ahh yes the 70lb killswitch plate. That was an interesting read.

[charrbq]

So back to the subject... If I weld a bunch of bars to the right rear side of the cage (it may look funny but what the heck) as well as other areas...is that legal? Id just hate to be hit in the right rear so I&#39;m making it safer!! :o ...seriously though I have about 45# of lead in it now and need to gain about 115# somewhere. That is alot of cage! suggestions? I really dont want the silly tiny spare in the car but its going in...good for a few #&#39;s I guess. Also adding a coos suit (about 25# im guessing)
[/b]
I&#39;ve seen some really interesting additions to roll cages on cars with drivers that are quite a bit lighter than the 160lb average. A problem I don&#39;t have. There are options like bars from the rear supports to the main hoop, down low. From the main hoop to the front hoop at the door sill. From the front hoop to the front supports. Under and even over the dash, across the front hoop. As long as they don&#39;t connect to the floor and are of the proper size tubing, you can beef that sucker up to meet weight without the ballast. Of course, it&#39;s expensive, and if you jump a berm the car will be so stiff it&#39;ll bounce like a golf ball, but won&#39;t bend. :D

[R2 Racing]

I only need to pick up about 20-25 pounds and am thinking about adding a couple of bars to the cage. My cage is already pretty stout but there&#39;s actually some additional bars I&#39;ve been thinking about but never installed beause my car was already 90lbs overweight. So I guess I&#39;ll be doing them now - I need the weight, have the pipe, have the notcher, and have the welder......might as well!

[Racerlinn]

I only need to pick up about 20-25 pounds [/b]

I thought you called that "dinner"?

(why do I get the feeling I&#39;m gonna get a love tap sometime this season when I&#39;m being lapped by a certain orange Honda....)
:023:

[R2 Racing]

I thought you called that "dinner"?

(why do I get the feeling I&#39;m gonna get a love tap sometime this season when I&#39;m being lapped by a certain orange Honda....)
:023:
[/b]

Seriously, you might as well go ahead and paint that target directly onto your bumper now. You ever been tapped mid-corner? :119:

[Tristan Smith]

So back to the subject... If I weld a bunch of bars to the right rear side of the cage (it may look funny but what the heck) as well as other areas...is that legal? Id just hate to be hit in the right rear so I&#39;m making it safer!! :o ...seriously though I have about 45# of lead in it now and need to gain about 115# somewhere. That is alot of cage! suggestions? I really dont want the silly tiny spare in the car but its going in...good for a few #&#39;s I guess. Also adding a coos suit (about 25# im guessing)
[/b]

And you could fill the spare with water too, just make sure that you really secure that thing down well.

Wait is that against the rules????? Does it say that anything but air can go in???? Does it fit the intent of the rule?????Wait, sorry wrong thread. I&#39;ll go back to the SB one now............. :D

[Matt Rowe]

And you could fill the spare with water too, just make sure that you really secure that thing down well.

Wait is that against the rules????? Does it say that anything but air can go in???? Does it fit the intent of the rule?????Wait, sorry wrong thread. I&#39;ll go back to the SB one now............. :D
[/b]

Well, factory air carries a percentage of water in it. That percentage is unspecified and 99 or even 100 is a percentage. :) Now, filling it with mercury would be wrong as that is not part of the factory fill.

[Racerlinn]

Seriously, you might as well go ahead and paint that target directly onto your bumper now. You ever been tapped mid-corner? :119:
[/b]
Tapped? No.
Punted? Yes.
http://videos.streetfire.net/player.aspx?f...F4-BC0E58A6FB00 (http://videos.streetfire.net/player.aspx?fileid=F341D619-FAA9-4C2A-B3F4-BC0E58A6FB00)
:blink:

[Greg Amy]

...you might as well go ahead and paint that target directly onto your bumper now...[/b]
Don&#39;t worry, Steve, got yer back; I know Kevin&#39;s worst fear...

[attachmentid=273]

[lateapex911]

Don&#39;t worry, Steve, got yer back; I know Kevin&#39;s worst fear...

[attachmentid=273]
[/b]

Ugly Nissans?

(And kevin, if I knew you better, well, nevermind! ;)

Re: the video, Linn- that wasn&#39;t a tag, that guy got payed to take you out! Who was the guilty party?

[Racerlinn]

Ugly Nissans?

Re: the video, Linn- that wasn&#39;t a tag, that guy got payed to take you out! Who was the guilty party?
[/b]

Hey, watch those ugly Nissan comments, we resemble that remark.... :P

Besides, Kevin sucks the decals right off my car when he goes by.
If I make it back to MO this season, my goal is to not get lapped by Kevin. Nice, huh? :blink:

As for the video, this particular SM pilot made the dive to the inside due to the fact that I came into T1 and T2 slower than normal. It&#39;s the beginning of the 2nd lap of the race and the first and second place ITA cars (the 240 and the MR2 - both of which I had beaten the previous day) were right in front of me (I was on ITA pole but had a horrible start when I had to check up because of a car in front of me). So my plan was to just follow along a few laps, learn something about where they were strongest in the infield, practice some race-craft, and generally take it easy and not try to win the whole thing in the first few laps. The tire smoke in front of us also caused me to enter slower than normal (call me Mr. Cautious this day - bad idea). After watching it over and over and discussing it with others (including some SM pilots, a local steward, even Mr. Amy here) it seems to be a consensus that he either locked a tire or just plain decided he was going to move me over. After the race I expected to be speaking with a Steward, but never saw one. I did talk with the other driver after I got out of impound and watched his in-car video. His opinion was that I ran over him (it was his right front fender in to my left rear wheel). We shook hands and agreed to disagree. I found out later that he was new to SM and was running this race to meet his license renewal requirements. He sustained more damage than I and limped the car around the rest of the race (I lapped him twice). I almost caught the second place 240 by the end of the race but ended up third, which was pretty good considering the over 1/2" of toe-in I had on the left rear tire. Ended up with doing body work, a corded tire, swapping out some control arms and having to re-align the car. Plus it probably cost me $200 worth of Kumho-bucks, which I really could use considering I&#39;m a budget-racer.

[R2 Racing]

Don&#39;t worry, Steve, got yer back; I know Kevin&#39;s worst fear...

[attachmentid=273]
[/b]

What, a mobile CRX chicane? I actually like those as I pull off into the distance. :P




(Holy crap, we all need to get out on track real bad. Silly season has gone retarded!)

[Chris Wire]

So back to the subject... If I weld a bunch of bars to the right rear side of the cage (it may look funny but what the heck) as well as other areas...is that legal? Id just hate to be hit in the right rear so I&#39;m making it safer!! :o ...seriously though I have about 45# of lead in it now and need to gain about 115# somewhere. That is alot of cage! suggestions? I really dont want the silly tiny spare in the car but its going in...good for a few #&#39;s I guess. Also adding a coos suit (about 25# im guessing)
[/b]

Evan,

Go ahead and add the bars. As you can tell from the photo, I wasn&#39;t at all concerned about cage weight. We&#39;ll see if I feel differently when I finally get to roll the thing across some scales, but with a wife and two kids, I&#39;m not taking any chances.

I&#39;ll simply have to make up for the extra weight with an additional dose of insanity! :119: :119: :119: :023:

http://home.mindspring.com/~twire/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/cagepic6.jpg.w560h420.jpg

[charrbq]

Chris,
Did you get your design from a Black Widow or a Brown Recluse? Seriously, aren&#39;t you afraid of all that weight up that high in the car? Hope you&#39;ve got some outside mirrors, &#39;cause that one in the middle won&#39;t do you much good. :D

[Chris Wire]

Chris,
Did you get your design from a Black Widow or a Brown Recluse? Seriously, aren&#39;t you afraid of all that weight up that high in the car? Hope you&#39;ve got some outside mirrors, &#39;cause that one in the middle won&#39;t do you much good. :D
[/b]

The competitor in me says I should be worried about the extra weight and the placement up high, but the Dad in me says, "No worries, mate!"

Outside OEM mirrors are generally useless I have found (although I am leaving mine on). I like the Longacre 17" mirrors as they seem to have the best optics. Just a tad behind the Allview mirrors I had in my last car. Truly the best just can&#39;t find them anymore.

With the Longacre, I can generally see from the right side of my helmet to outside the passenger window. A small convex mirror on the left down tube takes care of the driver&#39;s side.

[p99ro]

I hear the weight added to the 89 CRXsi is 110lb`s.
Is this correct?
CRXsi 07 NER Scott. I don`t like figure skating
Wait I just saw the Roll cage on that car. Oh my Fin God. Nice job dude. :smilie_pokal:

[R2 Racing]

Yes, the CRX Si went from 2140lbs to 2250lbs.

[Marcus Miller]

And?!?!?! Did the dyno day happen yet?

:birra:

Marcus

[Greg Amy]

And?!?!?! Did the dyno day happen yet?[/b]
Which one, with Anthony and me? No, and that&#39;s my fault: my car is still up on jackstands waiting for some new struts, and my crew chief has gotten himself totally entwined in a Pro MX-5 team while Anthony has got his life wrapped around a Grand Am prep effort. So, I&#39;m on the priority level somewhere between slim and none... ;) - GA

[emwavey]

2250 lbs., egad man.

Well at least I can put to use at least one of the extra three spare donut tires I have laying around. - And now the once designated track-day-use-only passenger seat and belts can stay in for racing. Perhaps I can simply strap my wife in, she weighs about 100lbs, AND she&#39;s a great co-pilot.

Also for the NX/Sentras... I would imagine as more cars are built and raced in IT, that more support and knowledge will aid this platform&#39;s quest for podium finishes despite any inherent shortcomings. Funny, Gayle found a completely stock hardtop NX yesterday and send me a link that read - "Great start for an ITA car..." If I already raced a Nissan I might be tempted to jump on it {hint, hint, nudge, nudge}