Lower Ball joint extender?

[rmicroys]

Just wondering if anybody has seen VW ball joint extenders? I'm looking to be able to lower my car more with a new suspension - and I need to be able to level the lower A-arm and then drill out the spindle so I can flip the steering rod (using a rod end) to the other side to keep the LCA and the steering arms level. Anybody know who has made them... Are these available commerically or do most people make these one-off?

[JamesB]

You might be barking up the wrong tree here, thats not legal in IT. Try asking around at VWVortex.com.

[Bildon]

Originally posted by JamesB@Jan 19 2006, 11:53 AM
You might be barking up the wrong tree here, thats not legal in IT. Try asking around at VWVortex.com.

71252


Not everyone here is racing IT all the time. He's from Canada I see.

http://www.pmwltd.com/images/balljoint.jpg

Try these guys. 'taint cheap!
http://www.pmwltd.com

[JamesB]

I know he is. And I said he would likely get a more imformative answer from people there then here since I have seen threads about this on that site.

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by Bildon@Jan 19 2006, 04:49 PM
Not everyone here is racing IT all the time. He's from Canada I see.


Thanks! Every region in Canada is different too... no IT in Ontario.

All basically GT classes for the sprint races (all laptime based braket racing for 5 classes)

Or in the Ontario Touring GT series in which it's also a pretty much very open rulebook. How fast do you want to go? is usually the question in Ontario... the answer is... "How fast do you want to spend." ;)



http://www.pmwltd.com/images/balljoint.jpg

Try these guys. 'taint cheap!
http://www.pmwltd.com

71265


Thanks Bill... That's perfect - just what the doctor ordered! Now here's where I have a bit of part ignorance. The 17mm joint is which, the larger or smaller of the G/J joints? I run Corrado spindles and 11" brakes on my '86 Jetta. Would these 17mm extenders be the ones that would fit?

Didn't expect the reply this fast... wow.

[Bill Miller]

Rob,

I believe the 17mm is the smaller of the joints, and will work on the R/J I cars as well.

While I have not seen the units that Bill posted, they look to be adequate, from the info on the website. Be careful of 'home made' ones, as I've seen them fail (not pretty!)

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 19 2006, 06:04 PM
Rob,

I believe the 17mm is the smaller of the joints, and will work on the R/J I cars as well.

While I have not seen the units that Bill posted, they look to be adequate, from the info on the website. Be careful of 'home made' ones, as I've seen them fail (not pretty!)

71279


If the 17mm unit is the smaller kind, then it won't work in my spindle... but considering they'll custom make the length, I suppose they can also make it fit the larger spindle too - it's not like it takes more work - just getting the measurement right. The G/J up to 88 used 191 407 365 and after 89 used 357 407 365. I'm not sure which is which. Maybe I'll have to go home and measure some of the spares in the kit.

[RSTPerformance]

Are those legal in IT? That is a good question... Can you use the reasoning that you are using them for camber adjustment?

Raymond

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance@Jan 19 2006, 06:58 PM
Are those legal in IT?


Doesn't matter to me. Our classes in Ontario are timed brackets. My laptime at Mosport cannot be lower than 1m41.000s - if I do go faster in Qualifying, I start from the back of the pack. If I do it in a race, I get a DSQ, and start the next race (3 race weekends for my series generally) from the back of the pack.

Kept my nose clean this year with a bunch of fast laps near 1m41.2... But these are a couple of things I'm looking to improve. Get the car a bit lower, and because of that, I'll need some items to correct the geometery.

[RSTPerformance]

hummm... that is an interesting way of classifications... I like that!!! You "Canadians" never stop amaizing me (In a good way)... First it was Tremblant ski area and the nearby race track, then it was Vantage Motorsports crew, now "braket" road racing classifications...

I guess I am the "Blooming idiot" but I had never herd of or thought of this for classifications... I really like it!!!

Raymond

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance@Jan 19 2006, 07:30 PM
hummm... that is an interesting way of classifications... I like that!!! You "Canadians" never stop amaizing me (In a good way)... First it was Tremblant ski area and the nearby race track, then it was Vantage Motorsports crew, now "braket" road racing classifications...

I guess I am the "Blooming idiot" but I had never herd of or thought of this for classifications... I really like it!!!

Raymond

71300


Ya... we're certainly 'different' up here. :wacko: Must be something they put in the beer.

It is an interesting idea. I guess what they've done is make Ontario Region most accepting of any cars. So, people who build any SCCA, FAQ (Quebec), WMCA (Western Canada), ARMS (Atlantic Canada) or have any pro-racing tin top car can come out and play. There are 5 sedan classes in the Ontario Challenge Cup, GT1, GTA, B, C and D. Mostly five second 'windows' for each class. GT1 obviously being 'unlimited'. The scary part is getting guys doing 1m25s laps at the same time when we're out on the track doing 1m41s laps. So bring anything you want and have fun... but some people in ontario then make their cars so that they can ONLY be raced in Ontario because of strange mods that they may do. So often Ontario racecars are generally not easily resold outside of Ontario because of what has to be done to get them to rules spec for other regions.

So... my car. '86 Jetta, 2.0 ABA, Mikuni 44PPH side drafts, all sorts of doo-dads, uber lightened, etc, etc... is pretty much tuned out of any comparable SCCA class. At least that lets me do novel things for reliability, etc. So as long as I don't race outside of Ontario I'll be okay with this car.

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance@Jan 19 2006, 07:30 PM
hummm... that is an interesting way of classifications... I like that!!! You "Canadians" never stop amaizing me (In a good way)... First it was Tremblant ski area and the nearby race track, then it was Vantage Motorsports crew, now "braket" road racing classifications...

I guess I am the "Blooming idiot" but I had never herd of or thought of this for classifications... I really like it!!!

Raymond

71300



Ray,

You need to talk to Dave Gran and Jake Fisher....they've been talking about road racing brackets for a while....they probably have the whole thing figured out by now!!!

R

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Jan 19 2006, 07:45 PM
You need to talk to Dave Gran and Jake Fisher....they've been talking about road racing brackets for a while....they probably have the whole thing figured out by now!!!

71302


It did take a couple of years to tune the brakets. If anybody is thinking of adopting a braket racing system, you will want to talk to the Ontario Regional race director, Gunter Schmidt. He came up with all the numbers, cranked it through endless Excel spreadsheets, etc, and made it work quite well in Ontario. You can reach him at : [email protected]

[rmicroys]

Well... just measured a spare ball joint. The largest diameter of the part that goes in to the spindle is more like 19mm, and the internal diameter (where the bolt keeps it in place) is more like 15-16mm. So I'm not sure, but these guys look like they make it for Rabbits/Early Golf/Jetta. I suppose I could always contact them and see what they measure as '17mm'.

[Bill Miller]

You could always go w/ a set of early A2 knuckles and ball joints!

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 20 2006, 01:56 AM
You could always go w/ a set of early A2 knuckles and ball joints!

71335


Somewhat challenging to bolt up my Corrado brakes to them ;) I got an email back from them, they'll make 19mm units if requested, 2wk turn around. They just don't stock them right now. For race use, of course. etc.

[JamesB]

I thought A2 knuckes would bolt up to corrado brakes.

[JLawton]

I'm wondering if the Audi set up would work. I can't really remember how it looks, but it alows them to lower the car more than the VW set ups?

Ray? Is it in the control arm?

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by JLawton@Jan 20 2006, 12:00 PM
I'm wondering if the Audi set up would work. I can't really remember how it looks, but it alows them to lower the car more than the VW set ups?

Ray? Is it in the control arm?

71364

Not sure... Are you thinking of TT spindles - say in a Mk4? There was a lot of talk on the 'tex about that. H2Sport makes Mk4 drop spindles as well, so for people racing Mk4s, that's certainly an opportunity if their rulebooks allow such things. Not too many people making drop spindles for Mk2/3 cars though.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by rmicroys@Jan 19 2006, 08:59 PM
Somewhat challenging to bolt up my Corrado brakes to them ;) I got an email back from them, they'll make 19mm units if requested, 2wk turn around. They just don't stock them right now. For race use, of course. etc.

71342


I'm not sure why, Corrados were A2 cars, and I have heard of guys putting them on early A2 Golfs/Jettas.

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 20 2006, 01:10 PM
I'm not sure why, Corrados were A2 cars, and I have heard of guys putting them on early A2 Golfs/Jettas.

71370


At least for the Corrado brakes I have the sliders for the 11" brakes are in the spindle, then the caliper gets bolted on to the sliders. On my old '85 GTI it had those wonky sliders with those plastic inserts that went through the caliper and bolted on to the spindle - sorta different. The swap to get the G60 Corrado (or G60 Passat) on to a G/J requires the whole spindle, and brakes IIRC.

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by rmicroys@Jan 20 2006, 01:36 PM
At least for the Corrado brakes I have the sliders for the 11" brakes are in the spindle, then the caliper gets bolted on to the sliders. On my old '85 GTI it had those wonky sliders with those plastic inserts that went through the caliper and bolted on to the spindle - sorta different. The swap to get the G60 Corrado (or G60 Passat) on to a G/J requires the whole spindle, and brakes IIRC.

71375


Rob,

If you're going to go through all the trouble, why not use a setup that utilizes a heim joint in the end of the control arm? Walt Puckett makes a nice tubular control arm setup with heim joints at all three pickup points, and a slick ball joint spacer that mounts into the hub carrier.

It's used by quite a few VW prod racers including myself.

MC

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by racer14itc@Jan 20 2006, 02:08 PM
If you're going to go through all the trouble, why not use a setup that utilizes a heim joint in the end of the control arm? Walt Puckett makes a nice tubular control arm setup with heim joints at all three pickup points, and a slick ball joint spacer that mounts into the hub carrier.

It's used by quite a few VW prod racers including myself.
71377

Sure, either way that works. lots of options:

1. make a ball joint extender that clamps on to an existing ball joint and goes in to the spindle.

2. use the OEM a-arm, but replace the ball joint assy with a heim joint. Then make a spacer that one bolts on to the heim joint, and then insert in to the spindle.

3. Make a new a-arm, complete with replacable heim joint, then use the same spacer from 2.

Either way, requires somebody to fab something on a lathe/etc... maybe in my next life I'll be able to afford a few metal working machines. Probably a lot easier to make a plate with a heim joint, bolt it to my oem a-arm in place of the OEM ball joint, and just get somebody to make the "slick ball joint spacer". Certainly less complicated than the ball joint extender to make.

[JamesB]

Originally posted by rmicroys@Jan 20 2006, 09:36 AM
At least for the Corrado brakes I have the sliders for the 11" brakes are in the spindle, then the caliper gets bolted on to the sliders. On my old '85 GTI it had those wonky sliders with those plastic inserts that went through the caliper and bolted on to the spindle - sorta different. The swap to get the G60 Corrado (or G60 Passat) on to a G/J requires the whole spindle, and brakes IIRC.

71375



Yes but the caliper carrier is bolted to the knuckle so you can just bolt the 11" carriers to the A2 knuckle and use the 11" rotor and girling caliper.

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by JamesB@Jan 20 2006, 02:42 PM
Yes but the caliper carrier is bolted to the knuckle so you can just bolt the 11" carriers to the A2 knuckle and use the 11" rotor and girling caliper.

71383


Okay... didn't know. most people I see when they swap to 'rado brakes take the spindle too.

Now another question... But what do you do with the pad carriers that are integral to the early A2 spindle???

Then the early A2 bolt holes are M8 where as on the rado, the caliper carriers fasten with M12 bolts... it's really not all that compatible looking from ETKA.

I'm not thinking they're compatible.

Now if you're thinking Mk3 Golf... sure that should be a closer swap. I really don't think that it works on Mk2s...

[JamesB]

I have never seen an MK2 with the carrier integrated. I have not done this setup myself so I lack the full knowledge, you might need 16v spindles to make a direct swap.

[RSTPerformance]

Jeff-

I am not sure I understand... the "A" arm is flat on an Audi just like a VW. Flat meaning if you set it on the floor it is basicaly flat from the 2 A ARM mounting points and the Ball Joint Mounting point. The only ajustment you realy have is setting camber by moving the ball joint in or out of the "A" arm.

Ramond

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by racer14itc@Jan 20 2006, 08:08 AM
Rob,

If you're going to go through all the trouble, why not use a setup that utilizes a heim joint in the end of the control arm? Walt Puckett makes a nice tubular control arm setup with heim joints at all three pickup points, and a slick ball joint spacer that mounts into the hub carrier.

It's used by quite a few VW prod racers including myself.

MC

71377



Rob,

I agree w/ Mark on the tubular contorl arms. I've got them on my HP Rabbit. I'm not sure if they came from Walt's shop, or if the p/o just copied the design. The only real caveat I see w/ using a tubular arm over a stock arm (either w/ or w/o a rod end for the ball joint), is this. The stock arms are sandwiched, stamped steel, and tend to bend in the event of a shunt. You can almost look at this like a crumple zone. If you switch to a tubular arm setup, you're not going to get that same energy absorbing characteristic that you will w/ a stock arm. This means it's going to transfer most (all?) of the impact energy to the pickup points. With an A1 VW chassis, this can (and often does) mean the end of the frame horn. I'm not as familiar w/ the A2 chassis, so I don't know if it's got that same design (I need to look at my A2 Bentley again). So, while it's certainly the trick setup, be aware that you may end up doing more significant damage, in the event of a shunt.

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by JamesB@Jan 20 2006, 03:36 PM
I have never seen an MK2 with the carrier integrated. I have not done this setup myself so I lack the full knowledge, you might need 16v spindles to make a direct swap.

71394


Okay... two attachments from ETKA screen captures. One is a Mk2 brake setup - the one with the funky spindle with the little wings for the pads. The next is a Mk3 Golf setup (which is similar to a Corrado) To swap Corrado stuff in to a Mk2 (even the 16V) requires a spindle from the Mk3 or a Corrado/Passat four bolt 11" brake setup.

Remember rabbit spindles are different and don't have these wings either. But we didn't like rabbit spindles. The wheel bearings and hubs were much smaller and prone to failure. The previous owner of the car has some wall trophies from rabbit running gear.

Mk2 Golf/Jetta brakes:
[attachmentid=243]

Mk3 or similar to Corrado/Passat 4bolt 11" setup:
[attachmentid=242]

[ryotko]

Originally posted by rmicroys@Jan 20 2006, 05:54 PM
To swap Corrado stuff in to a Mk2 (even the 16V) requires a spindle from the Mk3 or a Corrado/Passat four bolt 11" brake setup.


As I understand it A2 cars came with 3 different size (diameter) 4 lug brake rotors, 9.4", 10.1" and 11".

All A2 Golf's and most A2 Jetta's had 9.4"
Late 2L 16v Jetta's had 10.1" same as the B3 Passat, 16v Scirocco, and I4 A3's.
G60 Corrado's had the 11" brakes

All of the 9.4" A2 cars had wheel bearing housings that included the integrated pad carriers, early ones had 66mm bearings later ones had 72mm. The 10.1" and 11" cars had wheel bearing housings that used bolt on-pad carriers and 72mm bearings. The 16v Scirocco used a weird wheel bearing but it's not an A2 car.

My understanding was there were 2 sizes of ball joint for A2 cars, early (smaller) and late (larger). I had always assumed that it followed the wheel bearing pattern, ie. 72mm wheel bearings = larger ball joints and 62mm = smaller. Is this incorrect?

Are you saying that the Corrado uses larger ball joints than the 10.1" cars? I'm not saying that you're wrong, just trying to get a better understanding of the issue. I've swapped the 10.1" A2, B3 and A3 wheel bearing housings onto A2 cars to use 10.1 and 11" brakes and never ran into a problem as long as I've used the correct pad carriers and calipers. The 11" set-up uses different pad carriers and caliper then the 10.1" set-up but they bolt up to the wheel bearing housings from the 10.1" A2 cars, the B3's and/or the 4 cylinder A3 cars.

Thanks,
Bob

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by ryotko@Jan 21 2006, 01:24 AM
As I understand it A2 cars came with 3 different size (diameter) 4 lug brake rotors, 9.4", 10.1" and 11".

All A2 Golf's and most A2 Jetta's had 9.4"
Late 2L 16v Jetta's had 10.1" same as the B3 Passat, 16v Scirocco, and I4 A3's.
G60 Corrado's had the 11" brakes

All of the 9.4" A2 cars had wheel bearing housings that included the integrated pad carriers, early ones had 66mm bearings later ones had 72mm. The 10.1" and 11" cars had wheel bearing housings that used bolt on-pad carriers and 72mm bearings. The 16v Scirocco used a weird wheel bearing but it's not an A2 car.

My understanding was there were 2 sizes of ball joint for A2 cars, early (smaller) and late (larger). I had always assumed that it followed the wheel bearing pattern, ie. 72mm wheel bearings = larger ball joints and 62mm = smaller. Is this incorrect?

Are you saying that the Corrado uses larger ball joints than the 10.1" cars? I'm not saying that you're wrong, just trying to get a better understanding of the issue. I've swapped the 10.1" A2, B3 and A3 wheel bearing housings onto A2 cars to use 10.1 and 11" brakes and never ran into a problem as long as I've used the correct pad carriers and calipers. The 11" set-up uses different pad carriers and caliper then the 10.1" set-up but they bolt up to the wheel bearing housings from the 10.1" A2 cars, the B3's and/or the 4 cylinder A3 cars.

Thanks,
Bob

71480


Good info there. From ETKA yesterday I was unable to find a girling brake setup for an A2 G/J - likely because I wasn't specifically looking for the 16V. Upon closer look, you are Correct. Only the 16V would have come with the 10.1" girling setup.

And you're right about the ball joint size too, in the later A2 cars, they all used the 19mm ball joint (88 and on). most of the time, I see people swaping bigger brakes on to 9.4" A2 cars, in which case they need to switch the spindle as well. So the corrado shares the same ball joint as all 88+ mk2s, but not the same spindle with the exception of the 16V cars.

Good info about the wheel bearing sizes.

Thanks for straighten me up.

[ryotko]

Originally posted by rmicroys@Jan 21 2006, 10:49 AM
Good info there. From ETKA yesterday I was unable to find a girling brake setup for an A2 G/J - likely because I wasn't specifically looking for the 16V. Upon closer look, you are Correct. Only the 16V would have come with the 10.1" girling setup.

And you're right about the ball joint size too, in the later A2 cars, they all used the 19mm ball joint (88 and on). most of the time, I see people swaping bigger brakes on to 9.4" A2 cars, in which case they need to switch the spindle as well. So the corrado shares the same ball joint as all 88+ mk2s, but not the same spindle with the exception of the 16V cars.

Good info about the wheel bearing sizes.

Thanks for straighten me up.

71518


Be careful with the Girling calipers. Both 10.1 and 11" use a caliper with 54 cast into the body. I assume it's the dia of the piston. They're different, the calipers for the 11" setup allow a wider rotor. I think the calipers/pad carriers from the VR6 cars are a direct fit with the 11" Corrado but I haven't checked this in a few years. The calipers for A2 Golfs will not bolt up to the 10.1" (or 11") pad carriers. I'm not sure if these were ever made by Girling, most I've seen are K-H.

-Bob

<<Edit>>
The 10.1 and 11" A2 Calipers have 54 cast into the bodies. I had originally said G60 but these are the 2 piston Audi brakes. I was out in the graage today and when I saw them sitting on the shelf I realized I had made a mistake, sorry.

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by ryotko@Jan 21 2006, 04:14 PM
Be careful with the Girling calipers. Both 10.1 and 11" use a caliper with G60 cast into the body. I assume it&#39;s the dia of the piston. They&#39;re different, the calipers for the 11" setup allow a wider rotor. I think the calipers/pad carriers from the VR6 cars are a direct fit with the 11" Corrado but I haven&#39;t checked this in a few years. The calipers for A2 Golfs will not bolt up to the 10.1" (or 11") pad carriers. I&#39;m not sure if these were ever made by Girling, most I&#39;ve seen are K-H.

-Bob

71519


No worries. I have a set of G60 Corrado spindles and brakes on the car now, and I have a second set of spindles, carriers and calipers in the spares box also from a Corrado. So I don&#39;t have to really worry much.

Interesting that the started as a simple ball joint extender thread and spread in to a discussion on brakes, calipers, spindles, etc. Oh well. Now I just have to make a few decisions on my next suspension setup, and see what I need to get. My cheap coil over sleeves work okay with the Koni single adj. inserts, but I&#39;m thinking of how to get the car a bit lower, and then fix the bump steer issues. Decisions, decisions.

[Bildon]

>> The stock arms are sandwiched, stamped steel, and tend to bend in the event of a shunt.

Try the 4cyl &#39;90-&#39;91 Passat control arms. No that&#39;s not a VR6 arm :023:

http://www.bildon.com/pub/357407151MY.jpg

[Joe Camilleri]

Here are 3 ways to do it.

[attachmentid=246][attachmentid=247][attachmentid=248]

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Joe Camilleri@Jan 21 2006, 09:56 PM
Here are 3 ways to do it.

[attachmentid=246][attachmentid=247][attachmentid=248]

71570



Joe,

While the first two achieve the desired goal, the third was just a wast of 2 sets of stock arms. It does nothing at all to change the relationship of the ball joint pivot point to the control arm, and correspondingly, does not help w/ moving the roll center, when the car is lowered. While it may look like it does something, because the control arm that is attched to the chassis, appears level, what you have to look at, is the line drawn from the inner pickup point to the outer pickup point. You&#39;ll that the angle of that line, will be the same as the angle of the stock control arm, on two cars that are lowered the same amount. The roll center of the car in the third picture, is the same as if it had stock arms.

[rmicroys]

Agreed. pic 1 and 2 work, 3 doesn&#39;t do anything.

[Joe Camilleri]

Originally posted by rmicroys@Jan 24 2006, 02:34 PM
Agreed. pic 1 and 2 work, 3 doesn&#39;t do anything.

71856


Hey, I never said that they were all good, just thought that I would share some of my reference photos.

I think that I am going to use a stock arm and ball joint with a spacer.

[shwah]

Here is another example.

edit wrong photo

edit, super slow connection at work created problems.[attachmentid=260]

[Bill Miller]

Chris,

Not sure what&#39;s up w/ those pics, but I can&#39;t see anything below the caliper.

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 25 2006, 06:30 PM
Chris,

Not sure what&#39;s up w/ those pics, but I can&#39;t see anything below the caliper.

72118

Hmmm... He&#39;s got those unobtainium/expensivium alloy stealth LCAs. ;)

[Joe Camilleri]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 25 2006, 06:30 PM
Chris,

Not sure what&#39;s up w/ those pics, but I can&#39;t see anything below the caliper.

72118



The pics are too large to post. You gotta make them smaller first.

[shwah]

Originally posted by Joe Camilleri@Jan 25 2006, 08:57 PM
The pics are too large to post. You gotta make them smaller first.

72139

No it was small - smaller than what is there now, just have a real crappy network at the office sometimes...