new track

[dpc]

Dick, any word on a new track out there, lots of interested groups waiting to hear. dave

[dickita15]

yes good stuff is happening. i am hopefull. some details will be announced saturday afternoon at NER's annual meeting. full disclosure by the end of FEB.

[dpc]

I new I asked the right person, thanks. dave

[0100]

Oh boy oh boy. :o

Thanks Dick!

Everyone on the new track committee keep up the great work. :023:

[dickita15]

This is the last paragraph of the NER New Track Committee’s report given saturday

By December, one of the two MA sites was found impractical, but the
other site is still underway, with Dick Patullo at the wheel and Sam
Gardella assisting. The Region has entered into a purchase and sale
agreement that is contingent on our obtaining the necessary permit
approvals. At this point, I can say it's a very large parcel, over
600 acres with very little wetlands and close access to the Mass Pike
between I 91 and I 495. Forgive us if we cannot be more specific about
the town, but we should be fully public by the end of February and we
would rather have some control of the public information release
locally. Our use can be allowed with a special permit from the Town's
Planning Board. Planning Board members who have been consulted were
encouraging, but still had the obvious areas of concern; noise,
traffic and hazardous materials. We are currently gathering the data
necessary to address these concerns and to apply for all permits.
NER has formed an LLC subsidiary named "NER Investments LLC" which
will apply for the permits. We are confident that with permits in
hand, investors will follow.

[lateapex911]

Very exciting. I don't think anyone has any idea of the legwork that Dick has done on this...driving all over New England for years now. I imagine I only have seen the tip of the iceberg.

I know that the actual paving of any track is the icing on the cake, and the real work is in the planning, the permits, the busness stucture, etc.

And I know that this is an impossible question to answer, but whats the range of time that the permit process can take? I would imagine we are looking at 6 months minimum, and two years on the outside.

So...does the site have hills??

[dickita15]

Originally posted by lateapex911+Jan 15 2006, 10:30 PM-->
And I know that this is an impossible question to answer, but whats the range of time that the permit process can take? I would imagine we are looking at 6 months minimum, and two years on the outside.

70988
[/b]
sounds reasonable


<!--QuoteBegin-lateapex911@Jan 15 2006, 10:30 PM
So...does the site have hills??

70988

yes

[0100]

:figo:

[dickita15]

As promised

http://palmermotorsportspark.com

[JamesB]

Awesome, I wish the venture all the best.

[StephenB]

NICE!!!

Let me know If I can help... I am not much of a legal person so that is out but if we want to put together an NER go build the bathrooms day count me in! I want to help with ANYTHING that is needed from cutting the grassafter it is done to installing fence posts now, you name it I will help!

Stephen

[StephenB]

I&#39;m sure everyone is curious on this... I know I was :)


Ahh Forget it I can&#39; figure out how to add an attachment with the MAP... you&#39;ll have to do a search but it is near Springfiled off of Rt. 90. Location location location. This would be a dream place!!


http://www.globexplorer.com/ImageAtlas/vie...42&zoom_level=1 (http://www.globexplorer.com/ImageAtlas/view.do?group=ImageAtlas&lat=39.5276&lon=-97.142&zoom_level=1)

[gran racing]

It&#39;s important to note that NO spectators would be invited, or even permitted, at events.[/b]

That&#39;s really too bad. I guess if that&#39;s what it takes, it is what it is. I do feel that NER and SCCA will lose out a bit on this if it is true as it is written. While I would not anticipate a significant amount of spectators, it is nice to attract some spectators to the events for multiple reasons. For the club, it provides additional exposure and that hopefully would lead to new volunteers and racers. As a kid (and adult for that matter), I attended several SCCA races as a spectator. I know, go as a crew for someone but for a person brand new to racing who might not even have an idea of what SCCA is no less it.com, its not that simple. Would we have a maximum of 20 crew passes to accommodate special "guests"? What about the residents of Palmer and nearby surrounding towns? Are they not invited as spectators?

Is there any wiggle room with this policy? Or is the spectator wording mean something different than I interpret to mean?

Regardless, this possible track location is fantastic news! Awesome work Dick and everyone else working on this project. I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll have no problems finding volunteers to help where needed. Very cool.

[16v]

As promised

http://palmermotorsportspark.com
[/b]



:happy204:

[almracing]

Any more specific information on the location? Here is what seems to be the general area.

Great news!!... anyway you can move it closer to NH? :P

[StephenB]

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=,+Palmer,+MA...26,0.080509&t=h (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=,+Palmer,+MA&ll=42.226547,-72.255964&spn=0.045126,0.080509&t=h)

[dj10]

Any know about sound restrictions yet? Hope it&#39;s not like LRP, you can&#39;t fart there! Sorry, on Sat. you can just before 1700 hrs cause that whole damn state is sleeping. :D

[dpc]

Nice job NER , dave

[RSTPerformance]

Great work!!! :035:

Thank you for the updates!!! :happy204:

Raymond "I am cool with any DB, so long as I get to play!!!" Blethen

[lateapex911]

Unofficially, I understand the site "tested" well. And the website states that there will be 1/2 mile of property between the facility and the property line. And that a max of 10 weekends a year, and 1 day a week will be allowed the "high" level of 100dB, and other events and days will be limited further.

It&#39;s doesn&#39;t go into details of the measurement, bit I think the topography is condusive to making noise and the neighbors not complaining!

[zchris]

Thanks Dick and all involved. This is the best news I have heard in quite some time. Everyone down on your knees and pray that we dodge all the bullets and we get a new track.
Chris

[lateapex911]

Well, we all know that there is no "there" there without the required permits.

I am assuming, and it&#39;s a big assumption, that the LLC has to be VERY confident that the required permits can be obtained, or that the sale agreement has as it&#39;s stipulation the successful procurement of the permits. Perhaps Dick can speak to the permit process, what&#39;s required, what the timing looks like and what the hurdles are.

Once the permits are obtained I would imagine that the fund raising would begin in earnest to acheive the needed level to obtain the parcel and make the improvements needed. Is that the case DicK?

Also, I know Tamworth is still struggling with a hostile town group that has really held their for profit project up. Are there any known groups in opposition to this project, or is it too early to tell?

Finally, is there a shot in hell of racing on our own pavement in 2008???

I can imagine the celebration that will erupt when the first green flag waves for the first race group!!!

This is REALLY exciting stuff!

[JLawton]

Yahoooo!! This is great news!!

Dick, we all appreciate the work you, and the rest of the group put into this project.

:OLA:

I know it&#39;s not a done deal til the first car goes out, but so close..........

[dickita15]

The point with a no spectator policy is that there does not have to be a infrastructure built in order to accommodate them, grandstands, parking, ect. A full spectator track has a much more significant negative impact on the community. In addition when you design a non-spectator track you don’t have to make the compromises in safety or track layout in order to provide viewing area. That said one of our major design criteria is to have a fun place to race. Part of that is having a significant portion of the track within view of the paddock are. Watching other race groups is the second best part of the weekend. And Dave with the track not focused on spectator income there is no reason for the club to hassle you about the number of crew or guest passes. Just because we would not be promoting spectators does not mean people who want to get involved will be turned away.

The site is about ten minutes from the Palmer Mass Pike exit 8. It is in the center of New England. I am guessing 1.5 hours to Boston, 2.5 hours to NYC, 2 hours to Albany.

We can’t move it to NH but there is a gun club across the street so that should make you feel at home. :)

If and when we are successful there will be investment opportunities for other clubs and enthusiasts.

[Magical Trevor]

Found the site, thanks to the gun club mention ;)

Gotta say, it&#39;s freakin&#39; huge.
For those with Google Earth: 42°13&#39;25"N, 72°17&#39;00"W
Google Maps: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=5+...31,0.028925&t=h (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=5+bacon+rd,+palmer,+ma&ll=42.222829,-72.280984&spn=0.015731,0.028925&t=h)

:D

[lateapex911]

In the interest of speading misinformation, (KIDDING!) Here&#39;s a guess as to the parcels location and size...which looks to be a couple miles wide. Is this a good guess Dick? Sorry about the crudely drawn green border.
Hint: click on the thumbnail to open, then hold mouse steady on lower right, until the enlarge icon appears, click on it for full size and easy readability. Scroll up or down as desired.

[joeg]

Dick--I do not think you could have found a more central location for New England.

Congrats and the best of luck going forward.

[gran racing]

Just because we would not be promoting spectators does not mean people who want to get involved will be turned away.[/b]

I figured that but the web info. made me question it a bit. Can we open it up this year and do some dirt racing? :eclipsee_steering: Yes, I&#39;m kidding (somewhat).

[Heritage Grafx Miata]

Dick and everyone else involved; That is outstanding news and as noted before a great central location (no matter what Anthony would like). I am truely looking forward to more future updates on the progress being made.....John

[almracing]

Hey John... welcome to the IT site. This mean you got a new computer? Hope to see you at the track this summer.

I do agree that any new track is a bonus. At the very least, it will give us all more options for racing weekends.

[Heritage Grafx Miata]

Its about time I found my way here! Imagine 2 hours closer than LRP, we may even be able to convince you to drag your butt out of NH. I&#39;ve just started reading "Gone", great book, can&#39;t put it down...(cheap plug for Anthony&#39;s wife Lisa Gardner&#39;s new book) I am curious, with that much land why would we limit ourselves to a 2 mile course?...John

[lateapex911]

Asphalt and development cost $$$$$...and lots of it, long courses are very difficult to staff, and there is a dire shortage of people to fill the flag stands, and I think that a track of that length is long enough to fit enough cars on, (50?) but not too long for most clubs. I think this track will be a "club" track as opposed to a "pro" track.

[turboICE]

Good news, I think. I would gladly drive the additional distance in place of LRP if it delivers good club racing.

Question on sound - was that already indicated in discussions for permits or was that self imposed? How many of those 10 weekends are intended for SCCA utilization?

I mean if this is another track where the only open marque club racing that can occur is SCCA, it limits my enthusiasm somewhat. If it is just a further to travel LRP, not sure how excited I can get about it.

Out of curiousity when did everyone north of the Hudson river get so sensitive to sound?

[dickita15]

The sound limits are self-imposed in the name of being a good neighbor. My guess is there will be several higher dB weekends available for other clubs. No one is suggesting we not race at LRP or NHIS so I cannot see SCCA using more than 5 or 6 dates as long as those tracks operate.

Sound is a big issue. The size of the site and the perfect topography allows to us not be a determent to the neighbors while still having room for an about 2 mile course and still leave a ½ mile from any houses.

If we all ran quieter we could have a longer track while still not offending people. Why in the world do we think people should put up with us as a noisy neighbor?

[turboICE]

I don&#39;t know that they should - maybe more area is needed. Summit Point has at least three churches pretty close to it and other than no unmuffled motors running on Sunday for an hour (lunch) there doesn&#39;t seem to be any neighborly issues there. I put up with more noise on my property every week night in the summer from the little league field down the street and all of us including those that live around tracks put up with more noise from people mowing their lawns during the summer than they do from road racing. I guess it is my opinion the noise is made the issue, but in reality something else is the real issue, a track is going to have people speeding down my street, they don&#39;t understand, appreciate or like racing, or it is just human selfishness - if I am not part of it I don&#39;t want it near me.

I don&#39;t see communities having the same problems with sound south of the Hudson that I do north of it, in my observation.

If sound is such a problem make all weekends 89 db, at all SCCA events at least then I only need one tune for my car.

[lateapex911]

Ed, gotta say, thats a short sighted and rather self centric approach. If the SCCA decided to change the sound levels across the board, nearly all classification procedures would need to be looked at or adjusted, and that would impact a ton of people that don&#39;t need to be impacted. All cars can&#39;t make sound limits without drastically affecting horsepower.

ANY new track had better bend over backwards in the good neighbor department. Nobody wants new noise. The existing tracks often date back to a different time...and things change fast. Heck, parents of 60s kids used to toss &#39;em in the back of the Vette for a Sunday picnic, and think nothing of it! Fast forward 25 or so years, and if your kid is in the wrong seat of your car and isn&#39;t strapped to proper kiddie seat and that to a DOT mandated tether that can take a horizontal pull of 1900 pounds you&#39;re in deep doo doo! Times change, and society&#39;s tolerance levels do too. Lime Rock has had strict noise limits for a long time and they will only get worse.

Watkins Glen has, believe it or not, noise issues and curfews.

The Hudson, last I checked ran North/South, so I&#39;m not sure what you mean by that "south of or north of" bit.

Any track anywhere near population will have extreme issues in many areas. The search for even a possible site in CT, RI, MASS, NH and VT has taken YEARS and has dozens upon dozens of false starts. I also think that the coasts will be more intolerant of things before those in the middle of the country will be.

[Bildon]

>> The Hudson, last I checked ran North/South :rolleyes:

:happy204:

[gran racing]

I put up with more noise on my property every week night in the summer from the little league field down the street [/b]

When we first moved into our house, I heard my neighbor cranking his t.v. playing a football game. The noise just got louder and we became a bit annoyed. Does he really need to play that so darn loud? We went outside to check it out more, and it actually turned out that it was the town high school playing football with a band playing. (The field is located in a different spot than the school, thus some of the initial confusion.) After we learned it was the school, that noise was not nearly as annoying. Same general theory as little league (for most people at least) with kids playing. The type of noise does matter to townships regardless if it should or not. Evidentially it does to me too.

[lateapex911]

I put up with more noise on my property every week night in the summer from the little league field down the street .....
[/b]

Like Dave says, it&#39;s all subjective. While the sound of Harley running thru the gears makes some peole smile, it leaves me shaking my head at an old 30&#39;s tech flatulent lump of iron. Yecch. And lots feel the sound of the "clink" of an aluminum bat on a ball followed by the shouting of 12 year olds is music to their ears. I&#39;d prefer the sound of wood on the ball, but it&#39;s great either way.

But the vast majority find the constant drone of unmusical 4 cylinders to be annoying for hours on end.

So far, they haven&#39;t come up with a system of quantifying the type of noise and its resultant annoyance factor, rather than the amount of noise. Which is probably better for us as racers. ;)

[turboICE]

>> The Hudson, last I checked ran North/South :rolleyes:

:happy204:
[/b]
Correct - always thought of as points on the other side of it as north of me - so I stand corrected points east of the longitude generally followed by the Hudson still on the continental US.

On the others exactly my point - it isn&#39;t the volume, its whether or not they associate with the source as being acceptable. And on the large area on my side of the Hudson it doesn&#39;t seem to be nearly the problem it is on the other. And a race is anything but a drone (rpms and loads change) and it is music - a lawn mower or leaf blower is a drone.

Oh well, didn&#39;t want to drag on about it - my question was answered it was self imposed rather than something given up in negotiating to get something (like spectators).

Allocation of those days will be interesting to see though.

[MMiskoe]

This is great news. There have been many reports of things happening for many years, but this is the first one that actually has any progress to report.

Note about permits - the Tamworth site has some wetlands that were going to be messed w/ and just like not farting at LRP on a Sunday, you can&#39;t mention putting a shovel into a wet area w/o a legal wrangle. Lets hope this site is a dry one. The permits can be had, but it just takes forever.

Sound - I am surprised that the proposal would start so low. I would have expected to tell people that we would run no more than 105dB, then when there was oppostion you have room to move the ceiling down to what we really run. To someone who knows little about noise/sound levels, going from 105 down to 102 seems like a decent reduction and it looks like a concession has been made, everyone wins.

I gripe about the sound level becuase it can be the death of a track. Bridgehampton is the best example of this. The sound limits there were such that the racecars had to be quieter than the tow vehicles (yes this did happen from time to time) and in the end they could not host events that would generate the income needed to maintain the track.

No community is ever going to raise their tolerance, it will only get tighter, and groups like us are a great target. I&#39;ve been to places that have pristine silence 24-7, but New England is not one of them.


But again, this is great news, lets all buy these guys a beer next time we run into them!

Matt

[RacerBill]

The real question is whether the readings for those limits will be recorded at the GCR compilant location or at the property line (like at Waterford Hills).

I took sound readings to be used as evidence for the defense in litigation between neighbors and a track in Indiana. As I was taking readings at the property line, next to the nearest house, the homeowner&#39;s bedroom air conditioner turned on and registered 20dBa higher than a Formula Ford on the track! And that was without turning the microphone around to point at the house!

[lateapex911]

But again, this is great news, lets all buy these guys a beer next time we run into them!

Matt
[/b]

Last time I ran into Dick I had Ray Lee Chee buy him a beer, but he was the RE back then.......


;)

[ggnagy]

I don&#39;t know that they should - maybe more area is needed. Summit Point has at least three churches pretty close to it and other than no unmuffled motors running on Sunday for an hour (lunch) there doesn&#39;t seem to be any neighborly issues there. [/b]


Actually, Summit Point went through a HUGE battle with a local citizens group a few years back. When they found out Bill Scott had applied for zoning changes to build the new circuit, they tried to get new zoning restrictions for sound applied. I think it was 87-89db, and quiet hours on sunday until noon. All the pro-motorsports people worked hard to prevent these changes and alot of us locals chewed the ears off of the zoning board members to keep it from happening. A group called SPARC was formed in support of the track. At the same time, things were done to try and reduce opposition, from the planting of trees to help screen out noise, to the MARRS fundraisers for South Jefferson recrational amenities (library, jogging trail) to community days at the track.

PS. Quiet time for the SCCA events at SP (Drivers School, National, Regionals) is 7pm to 7:30am. Dunno where you get quiet lunch hour from.

[turboICE]

PS. Quiet time for the SCCA events at SP (Drivers School, National, Regionals) is 7pm to 7:30am. Dunno where you get quiet lunch hour from.[/b]
Yes there has always been the off hours quiet time - at NASA events at least Sunday has a intra-day quiet hour.

The problems that arose from adding Shenandoah weren&#39;t well publicized to all participants then, my impression was always that the relationship with the community was a positive one.

[dickita15]

WDC region has done a great job of supporting the local charities and such which may have a lot to do with the support the track recieved in their fight. we hope to learn from their example.

[RSTPerformance]

Just cause I love buses, I figured I would share...

Looks like the road following what would be the backside of the property (to us) Rt 32 has a bus route!!! Those rich arrive and drive folks could fly in take a bus and walk through the woods ;).

The link is to another map (from the PVTA) that outlines the bus routes in the area. I think that the map is good simply cause it points out some key interests such as Wal-Mart, Palmer Airport (greg), the local hospitals, Town Halls, Local Villages, Big Y&#39;s, etc.\

http://www.pvta.com/static/pdf/bwp.pdf

I believe based on the area that we are all ASSUMING it is just below Wal-Mart Correct me if I am wrong but I don&#39;t think anyone has confirmed the spot.

Raymond "dreaming that somday this will all work" Blethen

[lateapex911]

I agree, south of WalMart, east of Ware rd and north of Warren Rd is my guess, but maybe Dick will confirm, deny, of keep us guessing!

What are the green sections on that map???

[RSTPerformance]

jame-

good question... I will look into that.

[dickita15]

Well on that map it is due east of wall mart but you can’t really get there from there. It is actually south a couple of miles from Mary Lane Hospital which is on your map, but again you would not likely come that way. It is much easier and less traffic to approach it from the south. About 2 miles north of Route 67, which is off route 20. It is 12 miles from Mass Pike Exit 8 with only 4 turns.