Ballast mounting

[JamesB]

Ok, well at my school I rolled over the scales and came out 80lbs under min weight. Given that I am actually doing well at loosing my holiday weight and possibly a little more, I am preparing to mount ballast per the ITCS. So here is what I am looking to find out. per ITCS the ballast has to be mounted in the passanger footwell in front of the seat mount and before the bend to the firewall. Now reinforcment of this area is allowed if I interpet this correctly.

So the car is an 87 VW gti in ITB, its the original floorpan with a small patch for rush repair near the kick panel. Would your do any reinforcement of this area before mounting the weight? If so what would you suggest is the proper amount of legal reinforcement.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by JamesB@Jan 11 2006, 09:51 AM
Ok, well at my school I rolled over the scales and came out 80lbs under min weight. Given that I am actually doing well at loosing my holiday weight and possibly a little more, I am preparing to mount ballast per the ITCS. So here is what I am looking to find out. per ITCS the ballast has to be mounted in the passanger footwell in front of the seat mount and before the bend to the firewall. Now reinforcment of this area is allowed if I interpet this correctly.

So the car is an 87 VW gti in ITB, its the original floorpan with a small patch for rush repair near the kick panel. Would your do any reinforcement of this area before mounting the weight? If so what would you suggest is the proper amount of legal reinforcement.

70674


Hopefully Kirk or Bill (or insert VW expert) but I would suggest the following:

REPAIR the rust spot by the kickpanel. Do this using factory repair methods. I would think that you would want to place your ballast as far back as possible - so that would be snug up against your forward seat mount. Some like to also snug up against the tranny tunnel to minimize pendulum-type effects.

Reinforce as needed.

AB

[JamesB]

The rust has been repaired already and agreeable to the factory spec per the body shop manuals I have read through on the car. I am using 25lb round plates (cheaper then lead) and did plan to mount as you mentioned. my concern was mainly if the stock floorpan needs any additional reinforcement, how and where.

[JeffYoung]

At work with no GCR but I seem to recall the rules also require the use of Grade 8 hardware and TWO mounting bolts for the ballast.

[JamesB]

2. Each segment shall be fastened with a minimum of two
(2) one-half (1/2) inch bolts and positive lock nuts of
SAE Grade 5 or better, and shall utilize large-diameter,
load-distributing washers.

I plan on using 1/2 grade 8 hardware, nylock nuts and 2" washers, I am just wondering if I should weld in any braces, or another piece of sheet metal to strengthen the floor pan before I do the mounting.

[MMiskoe]

Hey Andy - Where does it say it has to be in front of the seat mount?

It says it must be forward of the seat in the footwell area. But what part of the seat? I've never seen anything that says it must be COMPLETELY in front of the seat, or that it has to be in front of ALL of the seat. Once the seat is removed, how do you define the footwell area?

The back of the headrest is pretty far back in many cases.........

I'm curious.

Matt

[JamesB]

Here is the ITCS rule in complete


l. Ballast may be used. All ballast shall be located in the
front passenger footwell area, aft of the firewall and any
footwell angle, and forward of the OEM front passenger seat
location.
1. It shall be in segments no heavier than fifty (50) pounds,
and shall be capable of being removed to be weighed
apart from the car.
2. Each segment shall be fastened with a minimum of two
(2) one-half (1/2) inch bolts and positive lock nuts of
SAE Grade 5 or better, and shall utilize large-diameter,
load-distributing washers.
3. Holes may be drilled in the front passenger footwell
floorpan for purposes of mounting the ballast (only), and
said floorpan may be reinforced as required for the same
purpose.

So location is all wrapped up, shoring it to the inside of the car sounds fine with me. I just want to know if anyone things I should beef up the floorboard in that area or just mount it like I would mount my harness and call it a day.

[gran racing]

James,

I ran into the same issue with my car. Start adding back some of the "junk" you took out. When you ran it across the scales, I'm assuming it is fairly front heavy. Add the stock spare tire. (If the car came with a small donut -it's lunch time - then you can't put a full sized spare) What else came stock with the car that you could put back there? Your racecar may no longer look "cool" but you could put the rear seat back in.

[JamesB]

I bought the car like this. so I have nothing to put back in but the space saver spare that came with it. Also I have no problem with placing the rest of the weight counter the driver (im only 165lbs and hope to be back to 155 by season.) but I still need another 70lbs ontop of the spare to make weight or a few pounds over at 1/4 tank of fuel left which should be where I should be fuel wise post race.

I plan to corner weight it afterwards anyway, so the ballast is little concern. Based off the corner weights ill see if I want to consider higher spring rates then the current 550# f and 350# rear on the car now.

plus with the cage design, I dont think I could get the stock seats back in, this car was built 2 years ago as an IT car and my bet is the car was close to the min weight with the old driver, I just happen to be shorter and lighter.

[x-ring]

Who says your space saver spare has to be full of air? J/K

I'd consider using a backing plate, maybe 1/8" thick, the same size as the ballast plates under the car.

BTW, install the bolts with the head down and the nut up so that you can get it out later if you need to. The threads will get beat up if you install them the other way.

[JamesB]

I was just going to do oversized washers. But you know if I build the backing plate the size of the 25lb weights (plan to stack them) I could actually built the plate and put a couple of tack welds on the bolt heads to make it easier to tighten.

Good idea, I actually have some 1/8" and 1/4" in the garage from the previous owner (I have no idea what he used it for.)

[ddewhurst]

***The back of the headrest is pretty far back in many cases.........***

***Who says your space saver spare has to be full of air? J/K***

James, the following is not aimed at you. :D

Golly, with reference to the above copied two posts I wonder why it's so easy to get rules CREEP/CHEATING threads started.

Oh crap, I forgot it&#39;s a winter thread. <_<

[JamesB]

Dave its ok. I kind of just looked past it as people messing with ideas. But the rules are pretty damn foward about official ballast location. I am happy I get to keep my spare tire, which allows me to add ~15lbs to the back of the car. If that means the remaining 75# end up front, I am ok with.

Unless someone sees a flaw in the idea of using some 1/8 cut to the same size of my ballast and bolts long enough for the 3 piece stack to be properly secured, then thats going to be my design and way to secure the weight and reinforce for the weight.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by MMiskoe@Jan 11 2006, 12:37 PM
Hey Andy - Where does it say it has to be in front of the seat mount?

It says it must be forward of the seat in the footwell area. But what part of the seat? I&#39;ve never seen anything that says it must be COMPLETELY in front of the seat, or that it has to be in front of ALL of the seat. Once the seat is removed, how do you define the footwell area?

The back of the headrest is pretty far back in many cases.........

I&#39;m curious.

Matt

70695


Matt,

As has been quoted:


l. Ballast may be used. All ballast shall be located in the
front passenger footwell area, aft of the firewall and any
footwell angle, and forward of the OEM front passenger seat
location.

Forward of the front seat mount and aft of the firewall kick-plate is the "front passenger footwell area[I]". Under the seat is not. I can define the footwell area by the front seat mount, no?

IIRC, Kip V. and James C. got booted from their podium spots at the ARRC for this technicality...but the rules are clear to me. FORWARD of the front passenger seat location means &#39;in front of&#39;.

AB

[JamesB]

Yeah and in a vw there is a big ridge for mounting the forward steat mount so the front well is well defined. I was just wondering with the experienced racers if they found they needed to add any additional reinforcement to avoid a failure of the mounting over time due to the g-loads or bumping around the cars get when fledgling drivers like me turn into temporary rally crossing.

[itracer]

Originally posted by JamesB@Jan 11 2006, 03:35 PM
I was just wondering with the experienced racers if they found they needed to add any additional reinforcement to avoid a failure of the mounting over time due to the g-loads or bumping around the cars get when fledgling drivers like me turn into temporary rally crossing.

70719


I think your 1/8" will be fine. If you are going with 75# I (personally) would put in a couple extra bolts. I like your idea to tack weld the bolts to the plate under the car. :happy204:

[JamesB]

I can go with 3-4 bolts. I think I will end up with 3 if you think thats enough. that way I dont have to loose too much more material. my current plan is to use a 1/8 the size of the plates, and a 1/8 2" wide band for the 3 bolts welded to the full size plate and the bolts tacked to that band. Inside the car I will have an identical band of either 1/8 or 1/4 on top of the plate so when all 3 bolts are tight if there anthing to jar the weight it will distrubute over all 3 bolts in any direction.

I would rather over engineer it then under engineer.

[x-ring]

Originally posted by ddewhurst@Jan 11 2006, 12:17 PM

***Who says your space saver spare has to be full of air? J/K***

James, the following is not aimed at you. :D

Golly, with reference to the above copied two posts I wonder why it&#39;s so easy to get rules CREEP/CHEATING threads started.

Oh crap, I forgot it&#39;s a winter thread. <_<

70708


Dave, you&#39;re aware that the J/K abbrevation means Just Kidding, right? :blink:

[JamesB]

yeah, but with all the winter whatifs floating around that has my head spinning, I wonder if he just wanted to squish that before it became and issue.

[ddewhurst]

***Dave, you&#39;re aware that the J/K abbrevation means Just Kidding, right?***

O-ya, sure, crap I knew that all along Ty. :unsure:

The question is, is it better to be busted by a fellow poster or the original poster. Hmmmmmmmmmm <_<

[lateapex911]

I thought I had heard something about the location rule opening up? Or am I dreaming?

[JLawton]

James,
I have to use 50lbs. I used two 5/8 bolts with 4x4 backing plates on both. I snugged the weights up against the back ridge where the seat mounts and the tunnel. The bolts went through a ridge on the underneith of the car so there were two layers of sheet metal to go through. I was considering chaining them to the cage because I wouldn&#39;t want those bad boys flyin around in a roll over!! :D

Also, maybe your cage needs a "little" reinforcement!!

[shwah]

I have the same issue. I am about 100 light in my 86 Golf. I have run it with passenger seat, spare tire and very full gas tank. This was with the old autopower cage. Got a new cage welded in last year (which is surely lighter), and cut off two 48# chunks of 1x10" steel at work to make things more right. IMO on a fwd car, I don&#39;t really want to add a lot of weight in the back - it will only increase the polar moment of inertia. I figure I will try to find a factory type replacement sound deadening asphault sheet (is dynamat the same stuff?), stick it down, re-install the sand bags and sound/heat insulation pads, reinstall the carpet, run it across the scales and add one or both of the weights as needed. That way all the weight that goes back in is as low in the chassis as I can get it.

I have been concerned about how to secure the weights as well. I figure I will use 4 5/8" bolts with a 1/8" backing plate on the bottom and top side, and locate them so they don&#39;t go through the &#39;frame rail&#39; under the car.

I don&#39;t know if I will get all of this done by mid March when I plan to run my first event this year, so we may still use the wheel/seat/gas method at least one more time.

Chris

[JamesB]

Originally posted by lateapex911+Jan 11 2006, 11:51 PM-->
I thought I had heard something about the location rule opening up? Or am I dreaming?

70748
[/b]

Yes, saw mention of it in the grape vine, but untill I see this change approved with an effective date, I am sticking to the current book.

<!--QuoteBegin-JLawton@Jan 12 2006, 07:48 AM
James,
I have to use 50lbs. I used two 5/8 bolts with 4x4 backing plates on both. I snugged the weights up against the back ridge where the seat mounts and the tunnel. The bolts went through a ridge on the underneith of the car so there were two layers of sheet metal to go through. I was considering chaining them to the cage because I wouldn&#39;t want those bad boys flyin around in a roll over!! :D

Also, maybe your cage needs a "little" reinforcement!!

70761


Jeff, I thought about that, but really my cage already got significant reinforcement when I redid my door bars so they wouldnt be arm rests!!! Seriously the original bars where so high they where just below the window line!!!

I am going to put my spare back in which I weighed last night at 15.8#, and 75lbs in the front passnager floor to get the 90lbs I am estimating I will need in the. I will use 5/8 hardware but I am going to use a reinforcement on the top and bottom of the floorboard. I am considering adding a sheet of 1/8 or 1/4 fromt he center well to the door frame just to beef up that area.

Now if that opens up, sure I would put all the weight in the tail of the car. But for now thats enough.

[bldn10]

Matt got me to thinking and, actually, if you want to be really technical about it, snug against the stock seat mount may be too far back. Forward of the seat logically would mean no further back than the spot on the floor directly beneath the most forward part of the seat. And that is forward of the seat attachment point in the vast majority of cases. On the other hand, w/ reference to the floorboard the seat attachment point could be deemed the relevant point. Yea, that&#39;s the ticket.

Perhaps not but my first thought was that JamesB was asking how far he could legally take the reinforcement allowance. I.e. could you sandwich the floorboard between 2 pieces of, say, 1/2" steel? Sounds like a good jacking plate.

[JamesB]

Acutally, in a VW, the farthest back you can mount the weight and still be legal is the front of the pasanger seat mount. I dont have a good picture, but I can take one. I was actually asking to see if racers found they needed/wanted more bracing of that area for safety reasons or not. This weekend I am going to look at the floor pan. If it turns out that rust is getting to that area too, then im going to weld a piece of 1/8" from center well to door jam just to beef up that area.

Then probably use jeffs method of mounting it under the body and tac welding the bold heads to those pieces. inside the car I am going to make a2-3" wide strap the full diameter of the weights I am using for both bolts to pass through and secure the weight. I think this would ensure that my floor does not get fatigued and start cracking and I will feel that even in the event of a roll that the weights would not break loose on me.

[tom91ita]

snip...
Originally posted by bldn10@Jan 12 2006, 04:07 PM
could you sandwich the floorboard between 2 pieces of, say, 1/2" steel? Sounds like a good jacking plate.
70782


how thick can something be before it will be ballast too? i too am playing with some backing plates from scrap i have around and am concerned that it could be too much.

is 1/8" too little? is 1/2" too much? at what thickness / weight does a backing plate become ballast?

the rules basically said i have to have it securely fastened, right?

tia, tom

[JamesB]

Good point, I figure if 1/8" ontop of the stock body as reinvorcement is enough, the backing plates with be 1/8 also. After looking over the floorboard there, its better for me to do this. Of course I am going to wait till closer to the start of the season before I mount the ballast just to see if rumors are true. If they turn out to be false then I know my position anyway.

[Greg Amy]

While you guys are discussing how and where to mount ballast, you should take a moment and read the posts I&#39;ve linked to below. Do you recall (or did you see) Dino Crescintiti&#39;s massive shunt at St Pete last year in the WC Touring Mazda? Hell of a hit. The links below are from one of the fabricators on his team:

http://www.sr20forum.com/showpost.php?p=1025134&postcount=12
http://www.sr20forum.com/showpost.php?p=1035333&postcount=22
http://www.sr20forum.com/showpost.php?p=1340494&postcount=2

[tom91ita]

my basic thoughts was since the bolt in cage needs 3/16" that that would be a basis to defend a 3/16" plate backing the ballast mounts. i plan to make it essentially the size of the ballast blocks inside the car.

i was planning to weld in some 0.080" plate similar to weld cage mounts on the floor pan / tunnel area and also at the ~90° for the rocker at the other side. then between these two would be two pieces of angle (perpedicular to the car).

my ballast is ~ 50 # blocks that are about 2.375 by 6 by 12. i will have essentially 3 of these mounted side by side in a row. they will be sitting on the angles supported by tunnel and rocker and the floor.

i still have my spare tire as some of the ballast if i need to do that instead. really not sure what the best thing is to do with regards to distribution. in the back would help the corner weights more but in the footwell area is the best place with regards to being low. at least for my 85 crx si in itb.

[iagreen]

Okay so I&#39;m late at getting around to adding ballast. But I wanted to clarify a couple things.


1. It shall be in segments no heavier than fifty (50) pounds,
and shall be capable of being removed to be weighed
apart from the car.
2. Each segment shall be fastened with a minimum of two
(2) one-half (1/2) inch bolts and positive lock nuts of
SAE Grade 5 or better, and shall utilize large-diameter,
load-distributing washers.[/b]

-Can two 50# segments be stacked and mounted with four 1/2" bolts? Or must each segment be completely separate?

-What about two 25# segments? Only two 1/2" bolts are needed right? Or do they each have to be mounted separate?

Thanks, the car goes on the scales offically tonight and I need to make sure I can get the 100#+ to fit in the footwell before I run out of time.

[JamesB]

2 half in bolts per segment, you cannot stack 2 50# segments is what I got. And thats fine with me, I want to mount the extra 25# I need to give me a little more buffer room so im not micro managing my weight with fuel.

[DavidM]

I used two 45lb golds gym weights from Wally world. The only way they can fit in the footwell is to stack them. I think it actually worked out better than using two chunks of lead because the weight is distributed over a greater area and I think that&#39;s a little safer. Plus the handles on the weights allowed me to tether the weights to the roll cage. Not sure if it&#39;s totally legal per the letter of the rule, but it&#39;s what I did. I plan on getting rid of one of the 45lb weights once I add a cool suit and other "ballast" so I guess I&#39;ll be completely legal then.

Be sure and check under the car before you determine your mounting position. I had to modify my original idea because the frame "rail" split the passenger floor pan right down the middle.

David