Short Shifters

[turboICE]

OK in the spirit of airing pet peeves.

I assume everyone agrees that short shifters are illegal.

Not only do I never hear of them being protested, I see them blatantly listed as modifications to X car for sale with Y wins and Z championships.

So what is up with that?

I could so use a B&M but know I can't and don't whether I would be protested or not.

[JamesB]

I wonder how much advantage is gained in other cars when it comes to racing. I know in drag racing it makes a huge difference, but on the track I have not noticed the diffrence between the very short throws of my street car at track days and my longer throws in the ITB car at my school or the track day I took it to.

[stevel]

Originally posted by turboICE@Jan 6 2006, 08:00 PM
OK in the spirit of airing pet peeves.

I assume everyone agrees that short shifters are illegal.

Not only do I never hear of them being protested, I see them blatantly listed as modifications to X car for sale with Y wins and Z championships.

So what is up with that?

I could so use a B&M but know I can't and don't whether I would be protested or not.

70279


Ed, one of the 240's we have has a B&M short shifter (it was bought that way) and we're gonna yank it as soon as we have the chance. It's awful and has shitty feel. It just makes it easier to mis-shift. Trust me, on the 240's the stock shifter is just fine.

And I don't worry about it, because for most cars it really doesn't provide much of an advantage.

steve

[JohnRW]

Short shifters have exploded more engines, gearboxes and clutches than any other single cause. One of classic examples of an expensive doodad looking for some chump with too much money to spend.

If I were a race engine builder, I'd try and sell them to every customer....they're GREAT for return business.

[turboICE]

Originally posted by stevel@Jan 6 2006, 04:52 PM
Ed, one of the 240's we have has a B&M short shifter (it was bought that way) and we're gonna yank it as soon as we have the chance. It's awful and has shitty feel. It just makes it easier to mis-shift. Trust me, on the 240's the stock shifter is just fine.
70288


It's funny I had the opposite experience, the B&M shifter that my car (with active logbook and was in current SCCA use) came with was quite sharp and crisp in my T&T track days and licensing schools - I found the OEM with new bushing and cup pieces was more prone to be directed into the wrong gear when I replaced it for competition.

[Knestis]

Regardless, the question of why they aren't protested more often can actually be expanded to, "Why aren't there more protests TOTAL in the IT classes?" That's a strand that's been done before, with less-than-lovely results as I recall.

K

[Bildon]

>> "Why aren't there more protests TOTAL in the IT classes?"

Becuase it's more fun to beat the cheaters on the track :D and just smile when they get towed in, or blow up or get caught going over the scales too light... hmmm sounds a lot like a certain VW in the NE that everybody knows is cheating. :bash_1_:

We don't have time to protest. UNLESS the guy is taking trophies every weekend. Then well... there are even better means than protest. :ph34r:

[JamesB]

I like Bills thinking. just :bash_1_: the driver smart.

[RSTPerformance]

It probablyt depends on personal preference and the car when looking at results of a short shifters performance...

We put one on a Audi 4000 Quattro that we "pimped" out back in the teenage days... I personally hated it, and wouldn't put it on the race car even if it was legal... to me it is just something else to go wrong. One of our crew has a VW jetta with a short shifter in it... I am not a fan of that one either, probably more cause I am not used to it.

I have herd of a few VW's (non posting) that have run short shifters because they liked the feel... they took them out for "big" races where people would complain, but sometimes they were left in for other races when time constraints got in the way of taking them out and puting them back in (IE car used for other things besides IT Racing). Do I agree/not agree... from a compeditor standpooint, don't care, more power to you if you need that to beat me go ahead!!! But from a stewards standpoint... not such a fan of the cheeting!!!

Raymond

[Andy Bettencourt]

Even the answers to the original question show that people don't care. I think most people would rather talk behind someone back and say they got beat by a cheater than actually do the research, confront someone and then expose them.

It's a societal issue really. Most people in this world need to grow a pair. Stand up for what you believe in or keep your yapper shut.

AB

[RacerBill]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Jan 8 2006, 03:06 PM
Even the answers to the original question show that people don't care. I think most people would rather talk behind someone back and say they got beat by a cheater than actually do the research, confront someone and then expose them.

It's a societal issue really. Most people in this world need to grow a pair. Stand up for what you believe in or keep your yapper shut.

AB

70417


Andy: I like your thinking. :023: I agree that those with short shifters (in their car's shift linkage!) should be protested, preferably by someone a couple of places back or even in front of the offending cars. I intend to go to great lengths to make sure my car is 100% legal, even though I don't have a snowball's change in hell for a win (but that was my choice and one that I am confortable with).

That being said, I am not sure that allowing short shifters would be a bad thing. The linkage on my Dodge Charger is the slopiest thing ever designed and could use any help at all to make it better.

Second, I had an old VW bug, back in my flower power days (even drove it through Woodstock once or twice). And the only way I could get the shifter to work was with a short shifter.

Third, I once read an article on improving lap times. The theory present went like this. Aside from cornering, you achieve your fastest lap times by accelerating to terminal velocity for your car as quickly as possible. While you are shifting, your engine is disconnected from the transmission, therefore not accelerating. Let's say you up-shift 5 times a lap. If you install a short shifter and save .05 seconds per shift, then total you reach terminal velocity .25 seconds sooner per lap. To make that a little more meaningful, if you can travel 1000 with a higher average speed (ie 99mph vs 98mph) you would save almost 0.1 sec per lap.
I know, this is all just theory, but.....

[StephenB]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Jan 8 2006, 02:06 PM
Even the answers to the original question show that people don't care. I think most people would rather talk behind someone back and say they got beat by a cheater than actually do the research, confront someone and then expose them.

It's a societal issue really. Most people in this world need to grow a pair. Stand up for what you believe in or keep your yapper shut.

AB

70417



For me it is because IT is not something I do to make money, it doesn't feed my kids, me or anyone else. I do it for FUN! Am I competitive and do I want to win... Yes. On the track I try my hardest and take it seriously. I give it my 100%. Do I want to go to the track and deal with the hassle of protests every weekend... NO. If I loose to someone that has a short shifter then I lost to them, not because of the short shifter IMHO. If they have a 2.2 instead of a 1.8 that's different. I would then get upset. I have done 1 protest in my carreer.... against another driver that cost me $$$ in car damage, the race, and the championship. The only reason I hesitated is because I want to continue to be a friend with them and a compeditor. After a long personal debate I decided I had to do it. It was awefull in the end because all it does is create hostility and anger. I am at the track to make friends and have a friendly competition. I am not here to be nitpicky and deal with protests every weekend. That being said Don't cheat! cheaters are not making any friends...

I think it is a tough balance but I for one don't want to open up the can of worms to deal with protesting and hostility at the track every weekend. Especially fornitpicky things. I want to go for fun and when that changes I will no longer race with my club. Protests are not fun for anyone.

If you are considering protesting someone then you need to think of the repracussions. You owe it to yourself, the other driver, and to the club to talk to the person first. This is amatuer and a lot of people probably don't even know they are cheating... If you tell them and they are a jerk and refuse to make the changes then you file a protest to get to the truth.

Stephen Blethen
ITB audi coupe #50
NER SCCA !!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Stephen,

I think everyone is on board with your thoughts. My point, to put it simply, is don't complain about something unless you are prepared to do someting about it - otherwise it is just whining.

If I get beat by a guy with a short-shifter, I could care less - and you will never hear me complain about it - because I don't believe it is the reason I lost. It does, however, bring into question the integrity of the illegal car/driver - in all aspects of car prep.

AB

[StephenB]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Jan 9 2006, 02:11 PM
Stephen,

I think everyone is on board with your thoughts. My point, to put it simply, is don't complain about something unless you are prepared to do someting about it - otherwise it is just whining.

If I get beat by a guy with a short-shifter, I could care less - and you will never hear me complain about it - because I don't believe it is the reason I lost. It does, however, bring into question the integrity of the illegal car/driver - in all aspects of car prep.

AB

70475



I agree with you and I have whined from time to time.... I think everyone does. I am blunt to people if I know something (Jeff L. nows this and no he never cheated, he just made a purchase I informed him about a few yrs back) Like you said if I don't know for a fact it's tough for me to do the research other than ask others questions, then I pick my battles and usually decide it's not worth it. It's to bad that I am like this and most others are as well. The end result is no-one gets protested, we still whine a bit, and the cheaters continue to cheat and push the envelope a bit further and then a bit further until you either have a blatant cheater or rules creep.

Unfourtunatly it's a fine line between having fun, and then getting caught up in protest after protest (Kinda like SM last year in the northeast... not to many people that where involved with that all year long must have been having fun !)

Stephen

[charrbq]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Jan 8 2006, 07:06 PM
Even the answers to the original question show that people don't care. I think most people would rather talk behind someone back and say they got beat by a cheater than actually do the research, confront someone and then expose them.

It's a societal issue really. Most people in this world need to grow a pair. Stand up for what you believe in or keep your yapper shut.

AB

70417

Surprise...I can't argue with that! I complained about a cheater for a long time, but never did anything else but complained while he humiliated the class. Finally did the research and busted his butt at a major race. The car didn't go away, it just went into a production class where it belonged. :)

[tom_sprecher]

I feel if someone is bending or breaking the rules in a blatant way and dominating the class or if you feel there is justification for the time, money or hassle of protesting than just do it or shut your pie hole. Just make sure it is for something major (engine, suspension, trans, etc.). But, if you protest me because I don't have a washer bottle or some other vestigial component you can take the damn trophy and work it.

Otherwise, don't get mad, get even!

I came from the Formula ranks and I can't say I have ever heard anyone even mention the word "protest" except for some incident on the track. And yes, we have some rules over there as well.

[Ggerg1186]

Personally, I would like to see short shifters legallized. I see no difference between installing a smaller diameter steering wheel and a short throw.

Like most people I will be racing for fun. I won't earn a dime. My 125 RWHP IT7 is the closest I will ever get to a race car, so I at least want it to "feel" like a race car. To me, engineering, machining, and installing my own short throw is just part of the fun. It's kinda like getting stainless braided coolant hoses. Doesn't do much, but it looks slick.

I don't want to be called a cheater. I have not installed a short throw in my car yet, but I would really like too. SO until I get to know the guys at Waterford I will leave it stock.

For your viewing pleasure:
MY very own personally engineered first gen RX7 short throw:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Ggerg1186/Waterford/Part%20Design/short_throw.jpg

I hope I get to install it someday, without being called a cheater.

[Spinnetti]

Because it just doesn't matter?

If somebody think they are gonna win or lose by a short shifter, they don't need to be worried about anyway. I wouldn't protest anything unless I took 2nd to a guy who was cheating in a major, substantive way - a shifter sure wouldn't be it.

I go to race, not to complain about others cheating - what fun is that? I have enough hassles in life to carry them to the track.

Finally, if somebody cheats a lot to win, its just sad for them that their egos are so small. What fun is winning if you have to blatently cheat to get there?


PS, Ggerg.. what software did you use there? (I use solidworks and Inventor).. You haven't had an exciting race until you roll over at the dropoff at Waterford!

[Ggerg1186]

Originally posted by Spinnetti@Jan 22 2006, 06:59 PM

PS, Ggerg.. what software did you use there? (I use solidworks and Inventor).. You haven't had an exciting race until you roll over at the dropoff at Waterford!

71608


Pro Engineer

I think I am taking the wrong approach. At first I figured I would write a letter to SCCA asking for a clarification. But after looking around the rules and regs forum, I will probably only race IT for a few years. Then I will go GT.

Some of the people on this forum demonstrate an intense passion for keeping the IT class bone stock. That flies in the face of everything I believed about racing. A differential oil cooler is illegal? Who cares, a dif cooler is about prolonging the life of a rear end, not adding horsepower. I haven't even run my first race and I am worried that I joined the wrong class. I know I will learn a lot in IT7, but I bought my car to tinker. I get a lot of pride from designing, implimenting, and validating. If I designed an intake system that ended up reducing engine power by 5%, I'd be happy, because I just found out one way NOT to make an intake. You wanna know whats even more fun? Watching someone spend 6 grand on a new motor and suspension setup, then watching them get smoked by the track veteran in a beat up car that doesn't even have matching fenders.

[turboICE]

Originally posted by Ggerg1186@Jan 22 2006, 08:37 PM
A differential oil cooler is illegal? Who cares, a dif cooler is about prolonging the life of a rear end, not adding horsepower.
71610

Especially since all the STi had to do in T2 was ask for a trans and diff cooler and they got it. And this is Improved Touring.

With all the complaints about not being able to legally make weight (past and present weights) I don't understand why glass can not be replaced with polycarbonate. This would seem like a desirable permitted modification from a safety perspective and as a means for cars to get down to their weights legally.

If the new process is to really benefit everyone, there should be legal means for everyone to get to the weight the process calls for.

I wouldn't see glass replacement as creep or that slippery slope but I am sure there will be a long list of responses disagreeing. Heck this would be one that wouldn't even get into risk of interpretation or someone seeking to stretch the rules.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Ggerg1186@Jan 22 2006, 07:37 PM
Pro Engineer

I think I am taking the wrong approach. At first I figured I would write a letter to SCCA asking for a clarification. But after looking around the rules and regs forum, I will probably only race IT for a few years. Then I will go GT.

Some of the people on this forum demonstrate an intense passion for keeping the IT class bone stock. That flies in the face of everything I believed about racing. A differential oil cooler is illegal? Who cares, a dif cooler is about prolonging the life of a rear end, not adding horsepower.
71610



A thought or two:

The club has categories, as you have seen, that attract different types of racers. The SS cars are NEARLY stock, and reduce the need to have ProE and a mill in your shop.

IT is a step up the prep ladder, but attempts to make only rather simple mods to the cars to keep things easier and less expensive. It's strategy to attract newcomers, but there are mnay long term IT'ers who find that IT provides a great balance between wrenching and driving.

Prod and GT allow more, and even..... more levels of innovation, and require more wrenching and engineering capability. ProE, Silicon Graphics work stations and CNC machines welcome, and even required.

It sounds like your talents lean heavily in the innovation and fabrication department, so in the long run, Prod and GT could be your best place.

In the mean time, IT is a great place to learn the ins and outs of SCCA racing, with less "car stuff" to worry about.

The diff cooler is one of those things that isn't really needed, and could be more trouble than they're worth. Trust me, the rules makers in IT are not "stuck" on keeping things bone stock, but mods need a comprehensive "reason to be" before they are considered.

[Ggerg1186]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Jan 22 2006, 09:34 PM
A thought or two:


71624


Actually, as I learn ore I agree. The SCCA has been around a long time, I need to find a class that suits my needs, not modify a class.

IT7 will still be a great class to learn the track. It's just very hard for me to look at my car and NOT think 6 piston calipers, short throw shifter, ported, extrude hone..... :023:

So, I will run IT a couple years to develope my rookie driving skills, then combine the new skills with and engineering degree. Hopefully, it will be a "winning" combo. :smilie_pokal: Then again, I may find out my skills are limited to the pits and the garage.

[lateapex911]

I think IT7 (ITA) will be cooler than you might think. Innovation exists, but it isn't in the obvious ways, like bigger calipers and such. Your car is a great example. Does it have the tri Link rear suspension?

If so, you have one of the craftier solutions in IT. The problem (one of, LOL) with RX-7s is that when you lower them for racing, the rear trailing arms begin to move in conflicting arcs, and the axle tilts in such a way as to bind the watts linkage. So, the solution was a careful read of the rulesbook, and a deep knowledge of suspension geometry. The rules allow addition of a Panhard rod, and removal of the Watts link. That takes care of the lateral location, and removes one source of the binding problem, but the longitudinal location was solved by the "free material" bushing rule, and the allowable addition of a traction control device. The traction control device actually takes the place of the upper trailing arm which now uses foam rubber as a bushing material. A very clever solution that required creativity, deep engineering knowledge, and fabrication skills, and results in real benefits. ( An ex GM suspension engineer is the source of that one)

While the rules may seem overly restrictive on the surface, there is still room to innovate. But you won't have to pony up hundreds for fancy calipers and thousands for re-engineered transmissions and so on. There are, of course, examples where the IT rule book can cost more than simple racer solutions, but overall, it fills a pretty big need in the SCCA ladder.