The protest thread carry over from ITC

[Doc Bro]

To continue from where Andy left off in the ITC thread.....

Andy I understand you are not afraid to write paper but as I have watched- you are the minority. Everyone else, myself included, seems scared to. I commend you for your integrity and I agree with everything you say.

My point is how do you "KNOW" someone is cheating in regards to their motor program or something not blatant?

Do you: (sarcastic)

A.) Get them drunk the night before till they fess up?
B.) Sneak into their shop at night armed with an X-ray machine and Polaroid camera?
C.) Dress up as an armed robber and kidnap them asking for the truth or their first born gets it.

As I see it there's a guy (call him Mr. Holmes) who when you mention his name, everyone mumbles or rolls their eyes.....and says cheater, but no one does anything. (I was given covered mouth advice my first race to stay away from him or he'll try to kill you out there!!!) I WATCHED him destroy two race cars this year.....results: NOTHING.

See if a cheater comes out and STEALS a top spot it gives everyone else a loss. You maybe running for the top 3 next year.....but my goal is for a top 10 because given my level that is what I have set for my goal. If someone passes under yellow and it doesn't get snagged by a worker they may have denied me my goal...regardless if they would have passed me next lap or not. The fact is they got the "pass" by an unearned, illegal, and dangerous means which should have consequences and certainly should not be rewarded.

R

[charrbq]

I'm not certain how many people know this, but I'm not trying to be a smartass. If a pass is made under a yellow, and is witnessed by a worker (whether it's a corner worker, grid, fast pits, sound, or steward), it must be witnessed by two workers. One will not do it. It must be documented (written testament), dated, with time of infraction, signed by at least two witnesses, and have the license/membership numbers attached to the document.

What happens in a lot of cases, is that only one worker sees the pass, because there just aren't that many people staffing the corner. Usually, if there's a waiving flag, then something is going on in the area that involves a lot of attention by sometimes several workers. However, in most cases, an in car video will work as a witness, or, in most case, in lieu of a witness.

Normally, if only one worker sees the infraction, and it is written up, the one of the stewards will find the offending driver and spank his hand.

[dave parker]

Originally posted by charrbq@Dec 29 2005, 01:24 PM
I'm not certain how many people know this, but I'm not trying to be a smartass. If a pass is made under a yellow, and is witnessed by a worker (whether it's a corner worker, grid, fast pits, sound, or steward), it must be witnessed by two workers. One will not do it. It must be documented (written testament), dated, with time of infraction, signed by at least two witnesses, and have the license/membership numbers attached to the document.

What happens in a lot of cases, is that only one worker sees the pass, because there just aren't that many people staffing the corner. Usually, if there's a waiving flag, then something is going on in the area that involves a lot of attention by sometimes several workers. However, in most cases, an in car video will work as a witness, or, in most case, in lieu of a witness.

Normally, if only one worker sees the infraction, and it is written up, the one of the stewards will find the offending driver and spank his hand.

69484


This is only somewhat true. When I was protested this past summer for "purposely forcing" another ITC driver off the track I protested him for hitting me and for passing three cars under the Full Course Yellow being displayed at the following flag stations. I had a witness statement from one of the other drivers who was passed under the FCY as well as my own in car video as evidence. The SOM heard the witness and watched my video, and went on to declare that my protest was "vexatious" and disallowed it. This was in spite of the fact that in my video you can clearly see the other driver pass other cars and clearly see the TWO flag stations displaying the FCY. The National court of appeals overturned the SOM's ruling later.
So it really depends on who the stewards are, what they see, and what they WANT to see. I am convinced that the SOM that weekend was definately the "B" team.

Doc Bro,
Please do not take this as a personal attack. Just my advice and worth exactly what it cost you ($0.00).

If you think that someone is doing something illegal than go to them and confront them. If you can't do that then go through the protest process. If you can't say what you think to them face to face then please don't go to a public forum to discuss it. That is childish, uncalled for and just plain rude. Having recently been the victim of that I can tell you that it is not fun. Oh, if you lose the protest go and apologize, that is just good manners.

If you need help with understanding the protest process or how to write a viable protest then ask. You can PM me and I would be happy to help. Or ask here and you can get twenty different opinions on how to do it. Most of which will be right.

cheers
"dangerous" dave parker

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by dave parker@Dec 29 2005, 07:13 PM
Doc Bro,

If you think that someone is doing something illegal than go to them and confront them. If you can't do that then go through the protest process. If you can't say what you think to them face to face then please don't go to a public forum to discuss it. That is childish, uncalled for and just plain rude.
cheers
"dangerous" dave parker

69497


Dave,
That's exactly what I did to the driver that passed me under yellow. I pulled him aside and spoke to him privately (well sort of... my Dad was there). I told him I respected him as he has always been fair to me....but, I did tell him what he did was BS and I wouldn't stand for it in the future. When we spoke, by the way, he totally denied it. I asked him if he wanted to see the video (as I was rewinding it) and he said no and apologized (and admitted it). He "knew" he was guilty and I should have probably been more formal about it. "Knowing is different from "not seeing".

I don't take what you said as offensive because I didn't give you the whole story! My bad.

But the point is. If a person is confronted every weekend by a different individual driver then that person has been given a lot of "free passes". No?

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

Rob,

I can't wait to race in ITA this year. I know it's a great bunch. A few thoughts and some full disclosure:

- I have never protested nor been protested in my 15 years of racing - national-level solo or road racing
- I have been privy to protest discussion, decisons, thought process' and have acted as liesons to drivers whom I thought to be getting the shaft.
- I have raced in classes where there were protest-happy people
- I have raced in classes where nobody would protest
- I fully believe that eveyone should have video going to prove disprove accusations and/or errors misinterpretations by corner workers that happen few and far between

Things I would do:

1st - talk with the person about on-track stuff I feel upset about. Depending on the reaction and results, wait for another incident and proceed from there.
2nd - if it's a 'component' issue, I need to be an expert on the topic. If there is a abnormally fast car, talk with the top tuners and formulate a basis for protest - it must be complete and well founded.
3rd - I must be fully aware of my own situation. The Miata I am going to put on the track this year will not be short on equipment. I need to make sure I am up to speed before I make any snap judgements on WHY someone is faster. Example: If I have a pro motor and someone drives away from me in a similar make/model - I have a decision to make and some investigation to do. If I see Acura's driving away from Serra-type stuff, we have issues.

The "Protest Story" by Jake is troubling to me and I would love to have been sitting at that table.

I am a firm believer in a open hood policy in impound for all classes. I am also a firm believer in tech posting a laundry list of stuff they MAY check during the year. Fear is a great motivator.

More and more stuff keeps popping into my head and I can't type fast enough. I would be happy to talk off-line about generalities, specifics, NER, whatever.

508-878-2228

The net/net is that you talk first, shoot second. If the issue is important to you, act. If the track position/points are important to you, act. I can tell you that I will should the situation arise.

Maybe a "Protest Seminar" at Regional Annual Mettings? Could accomplish a few things:

- Intro's to SOM's and drivers who are interested
- Education on the process, it's flow and expectations
- A more open line of communication between the factions

AB

[zracre]

Originally posted by charrbq@Dec 29 2005, 02:24 PM

What happens in a lot of cases, is that only one worker sees the pass, because there just aren't that many people staffing the corner. Usually, if there's a waiving flag, then something is going on in the area that involves a lot of attention by sometimes several workers. However, in most cases, an in car video will work as a witness, or, in most case, in lieu of a witness.

Normally, if only one worker sees the infraction, and it is written up, the one of the stewards will find the offending driver and spank his hand.

69484


There was an incident at the ARRC where someone on this site may have passed me in the sprint race under yellow...i didnt see the yellow or I guess he didnt either...the point is the stewart called him in and told him I was protesting him with the form in my hand...when he approached me and told me this I was flabergasted! I couldnt believe a steward would say something like that! I may not have been paying attention when the pass was made, but that meant I didnt see the yellow either...almost made an enemy out of someone I dont know very well but know he wouldnt intentionally do something like that. I let it go...I am not the type to protest...and I know I have been beaten from some real questionable cars...too much trouble for a hobby. If someone needs to cheat to win, and everyone knows they are cheating, did they really win?

[RacerBill]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 29 2005, 04:13 PM
Rob,

I can't wait to race in ITA this year. I know it's a great bunch. A few thoughts and some full disclosure:

- I have never protested nor been protested in my 15 years of racing - national-level solo or road racing
- I have been privy to protest discussion, decisons, thought process' and have acted as liesons to drivers whom I thought to be getting the shaft.
- I have raced in classes where there were protest-happy people
- I have raced in classes where nobody would protest
- I fully believe that eveyone should have video going to prove disprove accusations and/or errors misinterpretations by corner workers that happen few and far between

Things I would do:

1st - talk with the person about on-track stuff I feel upset about. Depending on the reaction and results, wait for another incident and proceed from there.
2nd - if it's a 'component' issue, I need to be an expert on the topic. If there is a abnormally fast car, talk with the top tuners and formulate a basis for protest - it must be complete and well founded.
3rd - I must be fully aware of my own situation. The Miata I am going to put on the track this year will not be short on equipment. I need to make sure I am up to speed before I make any snap judgements on WHY someone is faster. Example: If I have a pro motor and someone drives away from me in a similar make/model - I have a decision to make and some investigation to do. If I see Acura's driving away from Serra-type stuff, we have issues.

The "Protest Story" by Jake is troubling to me and I would love to have been sitting at that table.

I am a firm believer in a open hood policy in impound for all classes. I am also a firm believer in tech posting a laundry list of stuff they MAY check during the year. Fear is a great motivator.

More and more stuff keeps popping into my head and I can't type fast enough. I would be happy to talk off-line about generalities, specifics, NER, whatever.

508-878-2228

The net/net is that you talk first, shoot second. If the issue is important to you, act. If the track position/points are important to you, act. I can tell you that I will should the situation arise.

Maybe a "Protest Seminar" at Regional Annual Mettings? Could accomplish a few things:

- Intro's to SOM's and drivers who are interested
- Education on the process, it's flow and expectations
- A more open line of communication between the factions

AB

69509


:happy204: :happy204: :happy204:


Andy: Wish I was still living up your way. Would be fun to protest errrrrr, I mean race with you. :D

(Formerly from New York)

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by zracre@Dec 29 2005, 08:48 PM
If someone needs to cheat to win, and everyone knows they are cheating, did they really win?

69515


It depends on how you look at it. I've been, as we all have, a fan of racing my whole life. More importantly I love the rags to riches underdog stories. (what can I say I'm a softy). If someone cheat and beat some kid or worse some guy who's been doing it for 20 years without a win that would really be a heartbreaker. I've seen competitors poo-poo other competitors wins because they have "labeled" them as a cheater.

I just wish as a new guy the process was more clearly defined for me. More importantly:

I wish other competitors defended the process on track as vehemently as they defend the rules debates (washerbottle thread comes to mind :D :D ) which take place on this forum.

It would make it so much easier as I have learned so much about the rules by paying attention to this BB. It seems to me that things get hashed out here extensively- but "washed away" on track by saying everyone knows he's cheating sooo....his win doesn't count [in my mind]. Double-standard??

R

PS Andy, I really look forward to reading your posts......very informative and well thought out. You're an asset to this sport.

[dave parker]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Dec 29 2005, 02:29 PM
Dave,
That's exactly what I did to the driver that passed me under yellow. I pulled him aside and spoke to him privately (well sort of... my Dad was there). I told him I respected him as he has always been fair to me....but, I did tell him what he did was BS and I wouldn't stand for it in the future. When we spoke, by the way, he totally denied it. I asked him if he wanted to see the video (as I was rewinding it) and he said no and apologized (and admitted it). He "knew" he was guilty and I should have probably been more formal about it. "Knowing is different from "not seeing".

I don't take what you said as offensive because I didn't give you the whole story! My bad.

But the point is. If a person is confronted every weekend by a different individual driver then that person has been given a lot of "free passes". No?

R

69504


Rob
Yes, they have. Shame on the "rest of the group" for not addressing this situation. It is probably time for the "rest of the group" to have a discussion about this person and decide a course of action. Then invite the "problem child" to the discussion and alert him that many people are aware of the problem and are prepared to do something about it. Keep the discussion informal, and friendly but be very clear.

In all honesty it probably will not do any good. But, you will have given the guy fair warning. Then you (or somebody else in the group) needs to back up the words with action. Otherwise you wasted your time and his.


Also be aware that while the internet is a great boon to racing with the information that can be exchanged it is also a great way for lots of disinformation to find its way to the big wide world easily.

But everyday that I come to work I thank Al Gore for inventing the internet. :bash_1_: :bash_1_:

good luck
"dangerous" dave parker

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Dec 29 2005, 03:07 PM
It depends on how you look at it. I've been, as we all have, a fan of racing my whole life. More importantly I love the rags to riches underdog stories. (what can I say I'm a softy). If someone cheat and beat some kid or worse some guy who's been doing it for 20 years without a win that would really be a heartbreaker. I've seen competitors poo-poo other competitors wins because they have "labeled" them as a cheater.

I just wish as a new guy the process was more clearly defined for me. More importantly:

I wish other competitors defended the process on track as vehemently as they defend the rules debates (washerbottle thread comes to mind :D :D ) which take place on this forum.

It would make it so much easier as I have learned so much about the rules by paying attention to this BB. It seems to me that things get hashed out here extensively- but "washed away" on track by saying everyone knows he's cheating sooo....his win doesn't count [in my mind]. Double-standard??

R

PS Andy, I really look forward to reading your posts......very informative and well thought out. You're an asset to this sport.

69518


Haven't been called an asset yet, an ass...you bet! Thanks.

The washer bottle stuff is purely an internet debate. In application, I would NEVER protest someone on it's absense. It is however, a minute peek into the thought-process of a competitor - and how far they will go to be legal. I talked recently with a competitor, whom I respect, that thought that forged pistons of a lighter weight than stock were ok for his car because they were better, cheaper and 'wouldn't make that much difference'. He wasn't 'intending' to cheat and he didn't even know HOW MUCH lighter the forged units were...I hate that.

The only time you will hear me say that I know someone is cheating without doing something about it - is when that person is way behind me. I don't feel it's my position to police the entire grid - just the racers around me and in front of me that affect my final finishing position.

AB

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by dave parker@Dec 29 2005, 09:30 PM
Rob

Also be aware that while the internet is a great boon to racing with the information that can be exchanged it is also a great way for lots of disinformation to find its way to the big wide world easily.


good luck
"dangerous" dave parker

69520


Excellent point....and don't think for one second I didn't keep that in mind when writing. I'm not trying to stand up for anything other than fairness and integrity and I have no problem calling a competitor out on it. If a (call him) Mr Holmes has a problem with that then stop destroying race cars......it's really quite simple.

Thanks Dave
R

[lateapex911]

Sorry, I posted before reading the next thread...this belongs here, not there....


Rob...and others....protesting isn't easy, nor should it be. In some ways, I feel it is TOO difficult. There are many who have the desire, and the car knowledge, but lack the procedural knowledge to lodge a protest, and that's too bad.

Search this site for "A Protest Story" in the Rules and Regs section. You'll learn a thing or two on the process, what goes wrong, and right. It's basicaly a two part deal...a factual rundown, and then an opinionated commentary....which was actually very calm, I think. (I was pretty peeved)

We decided that we were SURE there was a cheater in the ranks, and we wanted to KNOW, one way or the other, what was up. So we lodged what we thought was a respectful, but complete top end protest. I think we did our job well, and in a professional manner. When we decided to do it, we decided that there would be a loser no matter what...and that if we were going to create a lot of bad blood, then we wanted as much good to come of it as possible. It was harder than we thought for the last part.

Part of our solution was to form a group. Five guys and a silent advisor. It made sense for a number of reasons. Cost sharing, and within the group, we had different guys with different expertises. I recommend the group approach, as long as each member has the resolve to see it through. We joked when we were asked by the stewards, if there were illegal items found early whether we would abandon the rest of the protest. "No, we will carry it all the way through....if you are going to kill the king, you MUST kill the king", LOL.
A group protest also shows the rest of the class that there is a large desire for the class to run clean.

Before the actual protest, 3 of us had had three seperate warning/conversations with the protestee, the last one resulting in a challenge: "Tear me down"...very well then..............

Most of us, myself included, would prefer that a pre protest chat be offered...if I am doing something wrong, I will be happy to fix it, just let me know. There could be a situation where my reading of the rule varies from yours, or the officials, and if thats the case then it becomes a voyage of discovery. If I am wrong, oh well, I'll fix it and apologise, if I'm right, no hard feelings.

On track stuff, to me, requires a chat, and a second occurance. Unless he is well known to commit the same fouls regularly.

I don't know if I gained or lost respect from my fellow competitors, but I decided that doing what was right, even though I personally had little to gain and lots to lose, was more important. Trust me, most around me told me I was nuts. The downsides were greater by far than the upsides, for me at least. (I'm a mid pack guy...my finishing position would go to 9th from 10th or to 5th from 6th..not a big deal, but I was told that I would be inviting disaster by actually protesting.) I'd do it again....but better. We allowed the officials as much rope as they needed, and it was nearly enough to hang the whole process. (A last minute step in from an un-named steward saved the whole deal)

I think you might be refering to a known guy who is questionable to many in the class locally. The reason HE hasn't been dragged into the tech shed is simple...he never builds a car that can finish a race without blowing it's guts all over the track. Once he does, things will change.

Mechanical protests can be easier than behavioral protests...much less gray area, so they are a bit easier to lodge.

I recommend a well placed and reasoned protest. There are plenty in your class and your area that will support and help you. Just ask.

[charrbq]

Originally posted by zracre@Dec 29 2005, 08:48 PM
There was an incident at the ARRC where someone on this site may have passed me in the sprint race under yellow...i didnt see the yellow or I guess he didnt either...the point is the stewart called him in and told him I was protesting him with the form in my hand...when he approached me and told me this I was flabergasted! I couldnt believe a steward would say something like that! I may not have been paying attention when the pass was made, but that meant I didnt see the yellow either...almost made an enemy out of someone I dont know very well but know he wouldnt intentionally do something like that. I let it go...I am not the type to protest...and I know I have been beaten from some real questionable cars...too much trouble for a hobby. If someone needs to cheat to win, and everyone knows they are cheating, did they really win?

69515

Evan, I know the incident you're referring to. That's what I meant about a pass under the yellow only with only one, or at least, an unsure witness. The method used by the steward was, at best, unorthodox. I would say conteptable, but then, I know that stewards are people, too.
The driver's meeting at the ARRC and the supps preached that "passing under the yellow will not be tolerated". But I witnessed several such passes on the front straight in plain view of the stewards and several workers with nothing done.
I suppose you respond sometimes as you chose in the manner you chose.

[JLawton]

If I knew someone was illegal (seriously illegal, not washer bottle) I'm not so sure i would have a discussion with them first. If they have the balls to to run illegally, they don't have my respect to discuss it first.

Also, people need to be carefull of accusing someone of being illegal JUST because they're fast...........That always sounds like sour grapes.

Example: Last year I ran with a person who was very fast. But I could HEAR that he didn't have a stock cam when ever I walked by his car when it was idling (I ran the same kind of car and know what a legal and illegal cam sounds like). At the time I was a mid packer so it didn't have an impact on me. However, if I was running in the same class in '06, I would be writing up a protest at the first race. I wouldn't discuss it with him first. And Rob, I wouldn't feel like a snitch for doing it!!

All that being said, make sure you of yourself before going forward......

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Dec 30 2005, 02:15 AM

I think you might be refering to a known guy who is questionable to many in the class locally. The reason HE hasn't been dragged into the tech shed is simple...he never builds a car that can finish a race without blowing it's guts all over the track. Once he does, things will change.



There are plenty in your class and your area that will support and help you. Just ask.

69539



Yes, I've heard things like that before Jake...however if I remember correctly that competitor went to another track in our region and swept the whole weekend. There were a lot of upset folks I remember the BB discusssion. But nothing was done.

I know that we will support each other. And I have met some WONDERFUL folks doing this. I have made great friends in racing. In my experience we get together, talk about things, and come up with similar conclusions...but we don't necessarily act on them. If my group does this, and your group, and his group....then why don't WE get together as you illustrated can be done.

Is it that the process is obscure?
Is it the fear of being blackballed?
Is it the reality that even if the competitor is illegal and we are vindicated we will still be feel blackballed?

I would love to see us defend the process of legality in its entirety. In my instance, I've learned from this BB that a washerbottle is a must have for reasons far more important to someone else than me. Mine was lost in a wreck, but I will be replacing it this winter. WHY? Because it's not for me to assign priority to legality/illegality. What I think is miniscule may not be to the guy who can garner power from a missing washer bottle. The same as if a pass under yellow denies me my first top 10 finsh. It may seem trivial- but it denied me a milestone.

We should defend the rulebook vehemently here as well as at the track.

We must remember, rules (laws) are the MINIMUM allowable standard that a population imposes for itself...not the maximum.

Rob "racing philosopher and beer drinker" Breault

[Bill Miller]

Is it the reality that even if the competitor is illegal and we are vindicated we will still be feel blackballed?


I think this is probably a large part of it. But, a lot depends where you are in the 'food chain' at the track you race at. If you're one of the regulars, and are buddy-buddy w/ most of the folks you race against, and usually run near the front, it probably won't be so much of an issue. Most of these people don't bother w/ protesting mid-packers or back-markers, and they don't protest themselves (for whatever reason, they're all legal, they have a "gentleman's agreement", ???). And, if you have someone new come in, that is felt to be illegal, you will probably have several people in on writing the protest.

But, if you're one of the mid-packers, or a new guy, and protest one of the 'regulars', the climate is probably going to be significantly different. Hey, we've all heard stories about people's cars getting dorked w/ at night.

[gran racing]

Good points Bill.

[/QUOTE]Also, people need to be careful of accusing someone of being illegal JUST because they're fast...........That always sounds like sour grapes.

Very true statement. It is the “Just” that is difficult to define. I really wish more was done to police cars and their legality.

At the time I was a mid packer so it didn't have an impact on me.[quote]

I hear ya Jeff, but my excuse was that I’m gonna beat that guy so why should I bother? (I had a little more motivation then normal because of this legality thought.) When I was in ITA, I had the same feeling as you mentioned. But in reality, cheaters do impact everyone in the class one way or another. The protest process is a bit intimidating especially for newer drivers but also for experienced drivers.

I don’t have an issue getting beat by someone who is a better driver, but it really pisses me off getting beat just because they are cheating. On the other hand, it is fun beating someone who is cheating. “What, you cheat and still can’t beat me? Wow, you must really suck!”

The other aspect of cheating is wheither the person is doing it on purpose or not (and not just a lack of effort of knowing the rules).

It would be great if a well written protest document were put together then distributed in one way or another. I can just hear it now. Someone is gonna say it’s all spelled out in the GCR. Hey, if a bunch of guys who really know the rules, one of them owns a garage / race shop, have the respect of other drivers / workers have troubles with the protest process how in the world would most people be able to? It would be great to see some tips on how it should be organized, what it should include (in general), how much the protest will typically cost. I have no clue what it would cost for a bond to tear down specific items. I would be interested in seeing a price range for these items.

We’ve discussed potential deterants and punishments before, but I still think a “wall of shame” idea might help a bit. For items (again, not a missing horn or washer bottle) that were protested and found illegal, print the person’s member number, car number, name and item that was found to be illegal somewhere.

So Rob, does this mean you’re going to be busy writing and assembling a protest?

[gran racing]

Rob, sounds like I too need to learn how to write a protest. I brought a protest document home with me last year if you want a copy.

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 29 2005, 02:13 PM
Maybe a "Protest Seminar" at Regional Annual Mettings?
69509

A clever idea, something with which I would be delighted to assist you...

Jake, I think you can rest assured that you and your group improved your reputation among the racers, at least the ones that count. You guys did it right and well.

I've got my own "protest" story, one that may guide your thought processes.

Back in 1986 (?) I prepped a Rabbit GTi for ITA. It was my street car, and I had a bank loan on it, and being that I was in school and living on my own at the time it was an INCREDIBLE financial stretch to own a car with a note, let alone be at a track racing. Well, I promptly rolled that car in my third driver's school.

So, I was in a bit of a pickle: no street car (but more importantly, no race car) and very little money. Into my life popped a nearly-free 1981 Scirocco S with a blown drivetrain, destroyed interior, and wasted suspension. I did what probably anyone else would do, and that was to strip the Scirocco and install all the perfectly-good GTi parts, including 1.8L engine, close-ratio 'box, 14" wheels, etc. I wanted to get back on the track so I unbolted the Autpower cage from the Rabbit, shortened it a tad, and installed it in the 'Roc, then I entered the car as an ITB entry. There was no doubt in my mind this was illegal to the rules, but that was not foremost in my mind; my desire to drive on the track far exceeded any desire to meet the rules. (Remember that back then there were no such things as open-track days or HPDEs and no catch-all classes like SPU or ITE. It was SCCA or nothing).

One weekend towards the end of that year I attended my first race with the car at Hallet Motor Speedway. Some time that afternoon I was fixing something underneath the car when I noticed two pair of feet (presumably) attached to two pair of eyeballs looking into my open engine compartment. I slid out and a couple of guys introduced themselves as fellow ITB competitors. They told me that they knew from the 14" wheels that I was driving an illegal car; quick inspection of the engine revealed it was more than just a tire thing. They were nice about it, but they carefully explained that they were competing against each other for year-end points, and given that I had gotten pole I had placed them in an awkward situation; if I did not agree to allow them to pass cleanly and race they would protest me and have me disqualified.

Yeah, I knew I was illegal to the rules, but 'that's not what was important here'! From my perspective it was in incredible goal simply to make it on the track, let alone get the pole and possibly my first win; shouldn't they be happy for me? Instead of getting the congratulations I was expecting, I was shocked at their slamming me! I don't recall my response, but I know I probably didn't react particularly well, probably arguing my point, but I do remember their closing the discussion with something like "it's your choice."

In the end, I think things worked out for the best: I led 1/2 the race or so, well clear of them ('just to prove a point'), then in one of the harder braking areas I moved over, braked hard, and pointed them by. I stayed somewhat-close to them but not involved, and got to finish the race in third (I don't recall if there were any competitors behind me). The only other memory I have of that event is seeing the crestfallen face of my close friend in pit lane as I came around the last turn in third place; he was as disappointed as I was!

So what's my point about all this? My point is that this situation was handled by the guys taking the time - and risk - of talking to me directly first. Yep, I thought they were a-holes at the time and I fumed about it all the way home (especially when I realized afterwards that the rules required filing a protest in advance of the race and there was nothing they could have done about it) but towards the end of that loooong drive home I recognized that they were right and I was wrong, that even though from my perspective and motivation this was 'I was right', from the viewpoint of my competitors it was wrong. In the end I bought replacement 13" wheels and built up a legal 1.6L engine and the proper trans, put all my hopped-up GTi parts into a ratty (read: cheap) Cabriolet as a daily-driver, and raced the 'Roc for a year or so more.

Even more important, Kyle, I learned something else that day. I learned the value of the preparation rules and how it affects not only my ability to compete but the value if/when I did win. Had those guys not intervened, or had I blown them off, I probably would have won, but today it would have meant nothing to me.

So, my moral to this story is that you can't know someone else's mindset or motivations for what they do; while they seem spiteful their actions may very well be based in ignorance or some other reasonable issues/aspirations. Based on my experience I strongly believe in the "first step" of confronting the suspicions directly. However, if you're gonna do that you better be prepared to follow up; if I had blown off those guys and they didn't follow up I would have had no respect for them in the future...

So, if you're worried about dealing with confrontations and/or protests, ask yourself one key question: do you want to stay pissed off just to keep from pissing off someone else? Hey, "it's your choice." - GA

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by gran racing@Dec 30 2005, 03:18 PM
So Rob, does this mean you’re going to be busy writing and assembling a protest?

69566


No Dave, actually quite the contrary. My first goal is to personally run as to the letter legal a program as possible. Then worry about my competitors. That way I can never have it turned back on me- the whole glass house thing. One huge caveat though is I won't tolerate the DANGEROUS on track stuff next year that I accepted this year. Passing 3 corners showing yellow at speed is dangerous and if someone was injured in the future by these antics I would be very upset at my inaction in the past.


As an aside I remember my first impound after a race (and how thankful I was to have made it there!!). I remember looking my car over as if I was a 16 year old with his first date in the car. I remeber thinking anything can take place here. I was nervous of the "process" of being in impound. I thought is my car legal, will it pass scrutiny?

The next probably 6 weekends I went to they only impounded the top three. My thoughts shifted to "impound doesn't really mean much". I learned very quickly what was going on in impound- nothing- just a bunch of high fiving and butt slapping. Why isn't the goal of impound to promote the "it could happen to me" fear in a cheating competitor. Why aren't the top three or five rolled over the scales? Just give the illusion that impound is a formal process that can have negative outcome to a cheater. At every Sat. nite special cirle track I have ever been to they roll the top 3 over the scales.

R

[JLawton]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Dec 30 2005, 09:20 AM
Is it that the process is obscure?
Is it the fear of being blackballed?
Is it the reality that even if the competitor is illegal and we are vindicated we will still be feel blackballed?


69562


I think it's a matter of proving it. Plain and simple!!

I know it's tough Rob, but try not to be too cynical!! :D

Looking forward to running with you this year!! :023:

[gran racing]

So, if you're worried about dealing with confrontations and/or protests, ask yourself one key question: do you want to stay pissed off just to keep from pissing off someone else? Hey, "it's your choice." - GA

Excellent point Greg and you’ve got me thinking…


Why aren't the top three or five rolled over the scales? Just give the illusion that impound is a formal process that can have negative outcome to a cheater.

In many cases the top three are rolled over the scales. For me it was pretty interesting. I think no matter how much the car weighed, I would be a bit nervous. This summer when they rolled my car over, I learned that maybe I went a little overboard adding weight back to the car. Scales are just a very minor step to policing cars.

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by JLawton@Dec 30 2005, 05:31 PM
I know it's tough Rob, but try not to be too cynical!! :D

Looking forward to running with you this year!! :023:

69580



I'm trying to learn the ropes Jeff. And as a guy with maybe a new perspective-rying to shed some light on some inconsistencies that I see, that may get overlooked when you've been doing it for a while. The whole forest through the trees thing. I hope my curiousity hasn't come off as cynicism or abrasiveness that wasn't my intent. I'm a better learner if I get to ask a lot of questions!!


And, I'm still waiting for deatils about next year! :smilie_pokal:

R

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Dec 29 2005, 06:11 PM
Andy I understand you are not afraid to write paper but as I have watched- you are the minority. Everyone else, myself included, seems scared to. I commend you for your integrity and I agree with everything you say.


69480


...Biggest thing I have learned about protests is:

... 1. Never protest a driver from the same region that is hosting the event. Especially if it is not your region of record.

... 2. If it is an on track incident and the corner workers did not make a report, forget it. Your word doesn't mean Jack _ _ _ _ Even if you have it on Tape and your car is torn all to pieces.

... 3. If you loose your protest because you did not observe rule #1 or #2 and you gather witness statements and file an appeal providing a tape of the incident from a following car etc.... You are really stupid...... Last thing officials will do is overturn another officials decision..... Then they make up something and put it in Fast Track.

... If you don't believe it .... PM me and I can show you.........

... So, let's not say "Scared To"

... Let's say... "Know Better"

... Rick Thompson
... 2000, 01, 02, Wonder what happened??? 04, 05 SCCA SARRC IT7 Champion

... This is my bias opinion, individual results may vary.

... Oh, and last but not least, Always ask to go see the On Track Medical Staff after an on track incident involving contact. In some cases the ????? are to busy trying to hide the truth and will forget to see to your needs. Even when you have a concussion.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Hotshoe@Dec 30 2005, 12:36 PM
...Biggest thing I have learned about protests is:

... 1. Never protest a driver from the same region that is hosting the event. Especially if it is not your region of record.

... 2. If it is an on track incident and the corner workers did not make a report, forget it. Your word doesn't mean Jack _ _ _ _ Even if you have it on Tape and your car is torn all to pieces.

... 3. If you loose your protest because you did not observe rule #1 or #2 and you gather witness statements and file an appeal providing a tape of the incident from a following car etc.... You are really stupid...... Last thing officials will do is overturn another officials decision..... Then they make up something and put it in Fast Track.

... If you don't believe it .... PM me and I can show you.........

... So, let's not say "Scared To"

... Let's say... "Know Better"

... Rick Thompson
... 2000, 01, 02, Wonder what happened??? 04, 05 SCCA SARRC IT7 Champion

... This is my bias opinion, individual results may vary.

69592


The fact that someone wrote this shows how truly broken the system is!!!

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 30 2005, 06:57 PM
The fact that someone wrote this shows how truly broken the system is!!!

69596



Sorta what I had pieced together from all of it. :D :blink:

R

[dave parker]

Originally posted by Hotshoe@Dec 30 2005, 01:36 PM
...Biggest thing I have learned about protests is:

... 1. Never protest a driver from the same region that is hosting the event. Especially if it is not your region of record.

... 2. If it is an on track incident and the corner workers did not make a report, forget it. Your word doesn't mean Jack _ _ _ _ Even if you have it on Tape and your car is torn all to pieces.

... 3. If you loose your protest because you did not observe rule #1 or #2 and you gather witness statements and file an appeal providing a tape of the incident from a following car etc.... You are really stupid...... Last thing officials will do is overturn another officials decision..... Then they make up something and put it in Fast Track.

... If you don't believe it .... PM me and I can show you.........

... So, let's not say "Scared To"

... Let's say... "Know Better"

... Rick Thompson
... 2000, 01, 02, Wonder what happened??? 04, 05 SCCA SARRC IT7 Champion

... This is my bias opinion, individual results may vary.

... Oh, and last but not least, Always ask to go see the On Track Medical Staff after an on track incident involving contact. In some cases the ????? are to busy trying to hide the truth and will forget to see to your needs. Even when you have a concussion.

69592



Rick
I am sorry that you had a bad experience with the protest system. I have also been the short end of that stick. A long (25+ year SCCA) racer and friend said to me when I first started racing, "Protests are a part of racing, they will happen, you just have to keep your head, and not get worked up about them."

I feel that as we are all big boys and girls that we can resolve our differences in the paddock with out having to involve the stewards. I say this because my gut feeling is that nothing good comes out of going to the tower, somebody (or everybody) will be unhappy afterwards.

But the system does work, and the National Court of Appeals will right the wrongs of the SOM, IF (BIG emphasis here) you have supporting evidence and have followed proper procedure. Sending a rehash of the evidence that the SOM saw is NOT going to do it. You must have NEW evidence that the SOM did not see or was not available at the track.The proof of my statements can be found in this years October Fastrack appeals section.

I think the big thing that people forget is this is all for fun.

All of this is merely my opinion and worth exactly what it cost you ($0.00).

cheers
"dangerous" dave parker

[lateapex911]

I can see how it can be extremely frustrating when a protest runs amuck.....but, when dealing with officials, I think we need to assume the same things we need to assume regarding a "cheating" competitor...that human error is the first stop.... then, if that has been eliminated from the list, thenyou can consider intentions of abuse.

IF the protest goes afoul, and there are errors made in the process, I think that further official actions are needed. In our situation, I feel strongly that grave errors were made in the process, and I (we) should have been bettter prepared with a "All hell has broken loose" plan, LOL. I was SHOCKED at the results, and dumbfounded.

IF I find myself in the same position again, you can bet I will be reading the rulebook carefully to know what the next move would be.....before I ever file the first peep. It all turned out well in our case, but it was a close call. One comment...and a certain "look" from an official I have known for years ...and can read a facial expression of...saved the day. If it hadn't been for that, I am sure that further protests....this time against the Stewards, and an appeal of the results would have taken place.

No matter the results of those actions, a huge red flag would have been sent up, and the systems breakdowns would be exposed up the ladder. I think it is very hard to "squash" such a thing these days. An advisor said to me that day, when I was discussing furhter actions, "What would your goal be to take this further? What will you lose? What can you gain?"

Good questions, and at the time I might have been apt to see that the actual protest would remain "lost", and might have let it go. Today I see the bigger picture and recognize the importance of continuing when the result won't be ideal.

I disagree with Ricky to a degree, although I respect his experince, that his rules are not 100%. But they are things to consider! No matter what, expect that the process will be time consuming and emotionally draining...racing is far easier! Do your homework!

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by dave parker@Dec 30 2005, 08:31 PM
my gut feeling is that nothing good comes out of going to the tower, somebody (or everybody) will be unhappy afterwards.

Sending a rehash of the evidence that the SOM saw is NOT going to do it. You must have NEW evidence that the SOM did not see or was not available at the track..

I think the big thing that people forget is this is all for fun.

"dangerous" dave parker

69608


..Dave,

... I agree on the ( everybody ) will be unhappy afterwards.

... And if you appeal, be sure to send new evidence, just as I did.

... And a whole hearted Yepppeee on the "this is all for fun".

... That little phrase has changed the way I have raced ever since 2003. I no longer put myself "at risk" when the racing gets unpredictable. If I feel that I might get involved in an incident with another driver because of bad habits, or, poor judgement, then I just back off. I would rather give a little than lose a lot.

... I tested this theory this year and got my first DF with my car. I did put myself "at risk" but I chose where, and when, and gave myself a "safe out" if the inevitable was to happen (and it did). But at least I still had a car. And a little more understanding of my fellow competitors.

... And I did not protest, thought about it, but, rule #2 applied, so, I tucked my tail and kept my mouth shut. Saved a bunch of time and only pi$$ed one person off .... me

... Rick

[Bill Miller]

Sadly, protesting officials will only get you one thing, blackballed.

[Peter Olivola]

Not by me or any of the other stewards I work with. If protesting me results in a rule/operational clarification then I welcome it.


Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 31 2005, 10:37 AM
Sadly, protesting officials will only get you one thing, blackballed.

69673

[Catch22]

Protesting is tricky. Its hard to do, and it should be. Frivolous protests could ruin reputations and make our sport a whole lot less fun.

There are lots of reasons and examples why protests should be very well thought out before executed. I have several...

A certain guy from Louisiana just keeps winning the ARRC ITC race. Against REALLY strong competition. For years, I'd heard how he simply HAD to be cheating. His car was "too fast."
Well, now I've raced against him a few times and while his car is fast, thats not why he keeps winning. I know, as well as anyone, why he keeps winning, and there's nothing illegal about it.
And... Winning the ARRC 5 (is it 5? Dammit.) times means he's been torn down alot. If he's cheating, he's doing it well enough to not get caught, so more power to him!!!

I whipped out my car in 2003, and after some development of both driver (driving an ITC car requires a different approach than a 175hp Integra) and car I went straight to the front of a very strong division.
Naturally, I was cheating. Right?
Or maybe I built a "no excuses" car. How many ITC cars out there have 35 dyno pulls on them, custom valved Konis, and a Sunbelt motor?
Not many.
My car wasn't illegal, but it did raise the bar a bit. Had I not firmly planted my head in my ass on lap 10 I WOULD HAVE won the ARRC this year. The car was just that damned good.
But a bunch of people would have tried to convince you to protest it.

How about a driving protest?
The incident that totalled my aforementioned car was ugly. Renee got hit in the RR right at the apex of turn 12 and turned straight into the inside wall.
Protest that guy!!! Right?
Well, I'll admit I was really pissed off right after the incident. From my vantage point it looked like the other driver had tried a crazy inside pass with 2 wheels in the grass in turn 12. I was seeing blood, even though I know that driver and know he's a really nice guy.
After things settled down, and we started looking at video and discussing things, the truth came out. The car that caused the incident was the Miata in front of the whole thing. He checked up entering the turn, causing Renee to check up and pull right to keep from hitting him. This left the guy behind Renee with nowhere to go but into her bumper. His 2 wheels in the grass wasn't a stupid pass attempt, it was a HUGE effort to not hit her.
But we all had to get together and talk it through to understand this. At first, second, and even third glance, it looked like my car had been totalled due to sheer stupidity from the guy behind it.
We even had an official meet us as Renee was leaving the care center and ask if we wanted to file a protest. He was watching from the tower, and his first impression was that the incident was the fault of the trailing driver and totally unacceptable.

This racing stuff is pretty complicated.

[charrbq]

Scott,
I know that you feel that you would've won the race if you hadn't put it up the chute, but really, it's doubtful. The 5 time champ probably hadn't used 4th gear yet. But I understand the sentiment.

As an aside, that guy has been torn down at the ARRC and checked by every scrutineer and competitor every year, save two, since '97. Every year found legal. In '97, his first win, the tech guys had tear down all the way to 5th and 6th to find a 2nd and 3rd place finisher.

The reason he wins is in that slightly balding, somewhat alcohol damaged head. :D

[Catch22]

I hadn't used everything in my bag yet either B).


The reason he wins is in that slightly balding, somewhat alcohol damaged head.

Yep, and I had him figured out.
Had I gotten to turn 12 ahead of him, it was very likely all over. Ask him, I'll bet he'll say the same thing.
Problem was, I tried too hard to beat him to turn 12, and wrote a check my ass couldn't cash. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 31 2005, 08:37 AM
Sadly, protesting officials will only get you one thing, blackballed.

69673


Didn't have any effect on me.

I was part of a protest of the Chief Stew (IIRC). During qualifying they black flagged all and some of us were sent to the garage and others were sent back out to qualify. When those of us who got screwed figured it out it was too late to go back out, qualifying was being checkered.

Our protest was upheld, however there was no recourse. We still got screwed (which was REALLY bad for me since I was still working on learning the track so I had zero hot laps) but I'm sure it wasn't good for the Chief Stew.

Never felt a single repercussion.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Catch22@Dec 31 2005, 11:05 AM
This racing stuff is pretty complicated.

69688


Boy howdy.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Peter Olivola@Dec 31 2005, 10:59 AM
Not by me or any of the other stewards I work with. If protesting me results in a rule/operational clarification then I welcome it.

69681


Spare me the rhetoric Peter. I've been told point blank, by other officials, that protesting an official would not be in my best interest. Even though the official in question totally over-stepped their authority, and flat out lied to me. Problem was, the official was a very influential member of the Region's BoD.

And George, I suspect that was because of two things, first it was a group of people, and second there were no repercussions to the official. Do something that gets upheld, or worse yet, gets overturned on appeal, and goes your way, and then see what happens.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 31 2005, 06:06 PM
And George, I suspect that was because of two things, first it was a group of people, and second there were no repercussions to the official. Do something that gets upheld, or worse yet, gets overturned on appeal, and goes your way, and then see what happens.

69717


Bill, I think you are making an assumption here. Our protest WAS upheld. By my more limited understanding of how it affects officials, I am pretty sure there would be a prescribed repurcussion. Just because they couldn't do something to help us out doesn't mean that the properly filed protest that was heard and upheld didn't come without repercussions to the official.

Perhaps someone who is an official can explain further, but I seem to remember something about penalties that can be assessed against officials' licenses.

[Bill Miller]

So tell me George, what happened to the officials in question?

[Peter Olivola]

Rhetoric? I don't know your situation and did not comment on it. I don't think I could have been more direct, Bill. I told you what I would/wouldn't do if protested by a competitor and why. Is there a problem with that?


Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 31 2005, 08:06 PM
Spare me the rhetoric Peter. I've been told point blank, by other officials, that protesting an official would not be in my best interest. Even though the official in question totally over-stepped their authority, and flat out lied to me. Problem was, the official was a very influential member of the Region's BoD.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 31 2005, 06:43 PM
So tell me George, what happened to the officials in question?

69719


Hey, this is Texas.

We took him out back and hung him.

Bill, I don't know. I would never know. I do know that we lodged a properly prepared offical protest. The protest was heard and ruled in our favor. It's on record.

Again, we have folks here who are officials. Perhaps they can comment on how officials are sanctioned. Exactly what happens to them is none of my business.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 31 2005, 07:57 PM
Hey, this is Texas.

We took him out back and hung him.

Bill, I don't know. I would never know. I do know that we lodged a properly prepared offical protest. The protest was heard and ruled in our favor. It's on record.

Again, we have folks here who are officials. Perhaps they can comment on how officials are sanctioned. Exactly what happens to them is none of my business.

69722


Actually George, I think it would definately be your business. Unless you take the attitude that you don't care what else happens, as long as you 'win' your protest. There are automatic penalty points that are assessed against a driver's license, based on the result of the protest. Are there similar penalty points assigned to stewards/officials?

[dickita15]

I am sure the steward was penalized two positions. :D

seriously if an official oversteps his position and like in a driver to driver situation you do not get the proper answer in a face to face discussion you can protest. think of it as arbitration. a ruling on what the right thing is to do in the future. the officials can learn from such a decision. I guess so can the drivers.

as to penalty, the results of such actions are part of the peer review involved in officials licence reviews.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller+Jan 1 2006, 04:45 AM-->
Are there similar penalty points assigned to stewards/officials?

69737
[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-dickita15@Jan 1 2006, 04:45 AM
as to penalty, the results of such actions are part of the peer review involved in officials licence reviews.

69737


Bill, I thought I read something about this somewhere. A quick look through the GCR last night turned up nothing. Perhaps it was in a Fastrack that I read it, or perhaps it was a Margarita induced dream. Who knows? But I definitely thought I read something about officials being assessed penalty points against their license.

Dick, can you confirm this? Any stews here able to confirm or deny?

As for being my business or not Bill, I can see your point. However, our protest was not a vindictive one so I wasn&#39;t really concerned about fallout for the Chief Stew. I only wanted a good Q lap which I wasn&#39;t going to get.

In the end it taught me a lesson. Get a hot lap in early. I was trying to work on individual sections of track w/o having to get a single flier in - you know, trying to be systematic about this. Next time I go to a new track I&#39;ll try to get a flier in and then go back and try working the sections again and then another flier. It was just helping manage the track and traffic better. Sucked that I didn&#39;t get a good Q lap because I started at the back. Of course I had fun passing a lot of people but it would have been more fun to finish better.

[Bill Miller]

George,

I&#39;m not saying it was or was not vindictive (nor should it be). But, when someone makes an incorrect decision, that costs me money, you can bet it&#39;s my business

[charrbq]

I&#39;ll give you an example of a steward getting censured and the repercussions of such an act. This happened several years ago in SOWDIV.

A driver of an IT car was slammed by a driver of a larger car more aggressively driven at the apex of a corner. This happened during the opening laps of qualifying. The larger car had minor damage, but the IT driver was done for the weekend. Feeling somewhat wronged, the IT driver protested the other guy&#39;s driving...quoting the GCR in the appropriate areas.

The offending driver was punished by the chief steward, but not to the satisfaction of the IT driver. Did I forget to mention that the IT driver was also a race steward, just not that weekend. The IT driver appealed for a stiffer penalty and won. The chief steward was admonished and reprimanded by the appeals court for, basically, not doing his job well. This series of events was, of course, published in Fast Track for all to see.

Victory for the IT driver...not completely. At a later race, the IT driver made the mistake of passing under the yellow. Resulting penalty by the same chief steward was having the book thrown at him. Our IT guy appealed the severity of the penalties, but had even more issued him as the court had noticed a pattern forming.

Final result was the IT driver has now left the SCCA, and the steward holds one of the top positions at the Runoffs.

Draw from it what you want, just an example of what might happen if you get sideways with a race steward. <_<

[lateapex911]

Or.....it&#39;s a case of throwing stones...then moving into a glass house.

Passing under yellow....it&#39;s not like noone knows that that&#39;s the classic "Throw the book at me move"....talk about having your pants down.!

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by charrbq@Jan 1 2006, 01:26 PM
I&#39;ll give you an example of a steward getting censured and the repercussions of such an act. This happened several years ago in SOWDIV.

A driver of an IT car was slammed by a driver of a larger car more aggressively driven at the apex of a corner. This happened during the opening laps of qualifying. The larger car had minor damage, but the IT driver was done for the weekend. Feeling somewhat wronged, the IT driver protested the other guy&#39;s driving...quoting the GCR in the appropriate areas.

The offending driver was punished by the chief steward, but not to the satisfaction of the IT driver. Did I forget to mention that the IT driver was also a race steward, just not that weekend. The IT driver appealed for a stiffer penalty and won. The chief steward was admonished and reprimanded by the appeals court for, basically, not doing his job well. This series of events was, of course, published in Fast Track for all to see.

Victory for the IT driver...not completely. At a later race, the IT driver made the mistake of passing under the yellow. Resulting penalty by the same chief steward was having the book thrown at him. Our IT guy appealed the severity of the penalties, but had even more issued him as the court had noticed a pattern forming.

Final result was the IT driver has now left the SCCA, and the steward holds one of the top positions at the Runoffs.

Draw from it what you want, just an example of what might happen if you get sideways with a race steward. <_<

69763



Yet more evidence of just how broken the system is.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Jan 1 2006, 02:47 PM
Or.....it&#39;s a case of throwing stones...then moving into a glass house.

Passing under yellow....it&#39;s not like noone knows that that&#39;s the classic "Throw the book at me move"....talk about having your pants down.!

69765


I agree 100% Jake. To appeal the severity of a penalty to it&#39;s max is fine by me...but be prepared for that same book to hit you in the head should you mess up.

Sorry to hear the IT driver is out of SCCA, seems a little like sour grapes to me. If you can dish it out, you had better be willing to take it.

AB

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 1 2006, 07:55 AM
George,

I&#39;m not saying it was or was not vindictive (nor should it be). But, when someone makes an incorrect decision, that costs me money, you can bet it&#39;s my business

69751


Since this is amateur racing, he didn&#39;t cost me any money. Sure I lost a few laps, and as a result a good Q lap, but that&#39;s it.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Geo@Jan 1 2006, 06:31 PM
Since this is amateur racing, he didn&#39;t cost me any money. Sure I lost a few laps, and as a result a good Q lap, but that&#39;s it.

69779


Actually George, it did cost you money. You paid for track time that you didn&#39;t get.

[Jack Marr]

Originally posted by charrbq@Jan 1 2006, 01:26 PM
I&#39;ll give you an example of a steward getting censured and the repercussions of such an act. This happened several years ago in SOWDIV.

A driver of an IT car was slammed by a driver of a larger car more aggressively driven at the apex of a corner. This happened during the opening laps of qualifying. The larger car had minor damage, but the IT driver was done for the weekend. Feeling somewhat wronged, the IT driver protested the other guy&#39;s driving...quoting the GCR in the appropriate areas.

The offending driver was punished by the chief steward, but not to the satisfaction of the IT driver. Did I forget to mention that the IT driver was also a race steward, just not that weekend. The IT driver appealed for a stiffer penalty and won. The chief steward was admonished and reprimanded by the appeals court for, basically, not doing his job well. This series of events was, of course, published in Fast Track for all to see.

Victory for the IT driver...not completely. At a later race, the IT driver made the mistake of passing under the yellow. Resulting penalty by the same chief steward was having the book thrown at him. Our IT guy appealed the severity of the penalties, but had even more issued him as the court had noticed a pattern forming.

Final result was the IT driver has now left the SCCA, and the steward holds one of the top positions at the Runoffs.

Draw from it what you want, just an example of what might happen if you get sideways with a race steward. <_<

69763


I am familiar with this tale, but you assume wrongdoing on the part of a Steward where there is none...

I am working from memory, but as I recall in both incidents it was not the Chief Steward who handed out the punishment, it was the SOM. I doubt it was the same group at both races. The same CS may have been at both but other than send the case to the SOM to start with, he was not involved with the final result.

This driver leaving SCCA was not retaliation for "getting sideways" with the Chief Steward. He left as a result of his actions following the second incident at TWS-a rather blatent full bore pass under yellow that either resulted in hitting a parked car or a near miss. When he didn&#39;t get special treatment because he was a Steward, the driver threw a temper tantrum-writing defamatory letters about various Stewards, threatening lawsuit, etc.

He was a nice guy, but he had no one to blame but himself.

[RSTPerformance]

I have been away for at least a week or so.. so I may be out of date and not up to speed.... My Girlfriend is trying to restrict my IT.com time as she thinks I am an addict.... but whatever she is in the other room ;)

First off I am disapointed yet again by people speaking about scca&#39;s broken system. This website is a huge influence on new members, and I hate to see negative press, but whatever it is some peoples feelings, and no matter what nobody or organization can please everyone... but we can try our hardest ;) now for the "rest of my story/rant."

I see lots of talk about protests and what not.... I have been in the stewards program now for a while, I was an SOM at just about every race in the Northeast this past year, and I learned A LOT. I reflected on a lot also once the season ended, and I think that it will all cary over to next year. One of the most important thing that I learned is that most protests can be made good, it really depends on who the stewards are and who the protester and protestees are. I think in the best scenario is that all people are happy when they leave and look back on the experience... each experience SHOULD be a learning experience for ALL parties, the proteter, the protestee, and the SOM&#39;s and any peers to anyone who might be getting "part" of the story. I guess my goal in being a steward is to try and keep the fun for everyone, and I think for the most part that is the goal of all the stewards.

A couple side notes...

First: If you think that the system is failing then put in the effort and seek out joining the stewards program.

Second: If you think that a steward is not making the best decisions, talk to them, and if that gets you nowhere (and it verywell could) then talk to other stewards. Stewards are reviewed each year by thier peers, and I think with that they grow. Most of the stewards I know are successfull real life people, who can take constuctive critisism and grow from it. Remember that not everyone has the same goals and objectives.

Now in closeing :bash_1_:
If anyone needs help with protests or dealing with rules at an event, please come and see me, I wold be glad and happy to help. This means that noone in the Northeast can every say that someone wont help them. I will, and I think just about anyone else in the Northeast will help also. If anyone has an issue with something that I may or may not rule in the future, please talk to me about it. I really would love to make everyone happy, however I know that will never be possible. I am certainly open to view others point of view and do my best.

Good Luck and have a great 2006 racing season!!!

Raymond " I didn&#39;t want to post, but I want people to be sure that they know the Northeast doesn&#39;t or shouldn&#39;t have any members with these negative feelings, and if someone does they should talk to someone off line about it, as thier are plenty of people that will try to help you" Blethen

[charrbq]

Originally posted by Jack Marr@Jan 2 2006, 03:43 AM
I am familiar with this tale, but you assume wrongdoing on the part of a Steward where there is none...

I am working from memory, but as I recall in both incidents it was not the Chief Steward who handed out the punishment, it was the SOM. I doubt it was the same group at both races. The same CS may have been at both but other than send the case to the SOM to start with, he was not involved with the final result.

This driver leaving SCCA was not retaliation for "getting sideways" with the Chief Steward. He left as a result of his actions following the second incident at TWS-a rather blatent full bore pass under yellow that either resulted in hitting a parked car or a near miss. When he didn&#39;t get special treatment because he was a Steward, the driver threw a temper tantrum-writing defamatory letters about various Stewards, threatening lawsuit, etc.

He was a nice guy, but he had no one to blame but himself.

69792

Thanks, Jack. I heard a lot of it second hand as I wasn&#39;t at either race. Some of what I heard came from the offending IT driver. I knew the pass was blatant, but not that any near misses were involved. Nor that there was a lot of screaming for special treatmen. I was aware of some bad blood between the two stewards. That was common knowledge.
Sorry guys, I didn&#39;t know the whole story. My bad.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 1 2006, 05:40 PM
Actually George, it did cost you money. You paid for track time that you didn&#39;t get.

69781


Sunk cost. The SCCA doesn&#39;t charge by the lap.

I wasn&#39;t even upset at the reduced track time. I was upset that I didn&#39;t get a good Q lap in. I now know to try to get at least something in early, despite whatever systematic approach I may be going in with.

Don&#39;t worry, I&#39;m not absolving any officials of blame here. I&#39;m just not upset about it.

[Bill Miller]

Well Raymond, since I&#39;m one of the people that says the system is broken, I feel that your comments are somewhat directed at me. Go read Jake et al&#39;s "A protest story" again, as well as some of the other anecdotal accounts, and tell me that the system isn&#39;t broken.


I think in the best scenario is that all people are happy when they leave and look back on the experience...

Nothing personal, but that&#39;s a pretty naive viewpoint, IMHO. If that&#39;s the way a protest ends up, there&#39;s a good chance that you didn&#39;t need a protest to begin with. I would imagine that a large portion of protests are filed because people couldn&#39;t come to some kind of resolution prior to the filing of a protest.

To think that everyone is going to come away from a protest over illegal parts, or rough driving, w/ a smile on their face and a song in their heart, shows a lack of understanding of the overall climate. By its very nature, the protest process is an adversarial one. The result is going to cost somebody something. I doubt that you&#39;re going to see them sitting down at the beer party together.

Noble goals Raymond, but unfortunately not very realistic. There will always be cheaters in racing, that&#39;s a fact. The protest process is the formal way that we deal with it. If it doesn&#39;t work, it will be little or no deterent to people that will break the rules.

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 2 2006, 12:31 PM

To think that everyone is going to come away from a protest over illegal parts, or rough driving, w/ a smile on their face and a song in their heart, shows a lack of understanding of the overall climate. By its very nature, the protest process is an adversarial one. The result is going to cost somebody something. I doubt that you&#39;re going to see them sitting down at the beer party together.


69810


Bill,

.... I couldn&#39;t have said it any better. And to reflect on what you said: I even extended my hand in friendship to someone that I had an encounter with and guess what? The person did it again .... LOL

.... I guess it goes back to the old saying: A dog can&#39;t change their spots.

.... Rick

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 2 2006, 07:31 AM
Well Raymond, since I&#39;m one of the people that says the system is broken, I feel that your comments are somewhat directed at me. Go read Jake et al&#39;s "A protest story" again, as well as some of the other anecdotal accounts, and tell me that the system isn&#39;t broken.


Well, Bill, this is an area that we differ, and it&#39;s probably just semantics. If one incident here and there is enough to call it broken, then fine, but I think things go right and we never hear about it...often.

if you asked me Saterday night after the meetings I had to hear the outcome of our protest, I would have agreed in a nanosecond that we had "issues", LOL.

But.......then we had a verdict at a later date.

The result? A guy who was suddenly setting track records was found to have domed pistons, and it was rather public.

Since then, he has been to the track twice as far as I know, but hasn&#39;t showed the same speed, due to engine failures, I&#39;ve been told.

The protest acheived it&#39;s goals, and actually over acheived in some ways.

And...read between the lines on this one, if I submitted the same protest at the same event a year later, the result would have been different...much different. Read back the thread to comments made by our officials for an insight.

To my eye, the system had a failure, and has since learned and improved. Sure. it would have been better if it worked right the first time, but the key, I think, is the dramatic improvements made since then. I would not call the system broken, at least around here.


Nothing personal, but that&#39;s a pretty naive viewpoint, IMHO. If that&#39;s the way a protest ends up, there&#39;s a good chance that you didn&#39;t need a protest to begin with. I would imagine that a large portion of protests are filed because people couldn&#39;t come to some kind of resolution prior to the filing of a protest.......Noble goals Raymond, but unfortunately not very realistic. There will always be cheaters in racing, that&#39;s a fact. The protest process is the formal way that we deal with it. If it doesn&#39;t work, it will be little or no deterent to people that will break the rules.

69810


Agreed....a protest that ends in smiles is one that was a clarification issue pre arranged between two interested parties.

BUT! Be that as it may, I find Raymonds angle refreshing, and his offer to help racers with advice to be one that we should all take him up on.

We need more racers who work, and workers who race. A steward with a strong racing background is a great thing!

[RSTPerformance]

I recognize that it is hard to make everyone walk away from a protest smiling, but I think it is a goal that I will keep. I have sceen many protests...

some that could have resulted in all parties being happy, but mistakes were probably made :unsure:

A lot where all parties were actually happy and learned, simply because all the drivers recognized they made a mistake (Both the accused and the accusing make mistakes) :023:

I have also been to protests where not everyone was happy, but I am sure that when all was said and done and the upset persons went home and reflected and probably thought, yeah I&#39;m a bonehead :bash_1_:

I have also seen protests where drivers were completely ignorate of the people around them and thought only of themselves, without any respect for others efforts to just have fun. That probably covers most of the people that are not happy when the leave the protest. :rolleyes:

And most rarely but most frequently talked about and publisized are the protests where someone gets screwed because of some sort of breakdown. I hope that my words can influence most to realize that is NOT the norm (especially in the Northeast). I can&#39;t speak for other areas, as I have sceen people get screwed in other regions by other stewards, but I would expect that isn&#39;t the norm otherwise SCCA wouldn&#39;t be the best Sports Car Club in America. :happy204:



It is also very true that most protests go unherd. At every race I was an SOM, just when you thought the day was over and you wouldn&#39;t have any protests... you got one. They happen a lot, most people are probably embarassed at the mistake and others respect that someone else learned from the mistake thierfor it goes unherd.

Raymond

Edit: PS: I agree, MOST protests are unecessary in the end...

[JLawton]

Raymond,
Don&#39;t feel bad for being an optimist. Optimists are the ones responsible for improvements to the system.

I know that most guys in the North East appreciate having a steward that understands racers!! :023:

[JohnRW]

Somebody mentioned doing a presentation on &#39;filing a mechanical protest&#39;...

If anyone is serious about attending, contact Dennis Dean (he&#39;s a WDC Region member & current Steward) and ask him to do a presentation at the NEDiv Roundtable, March 10-12, in Reading PA.

Raymond - you probably remember it - Dennis did the &#39;Mechanical Protest&#39; presentation at the NEDiv Stewards Training weekend last year. That presentation was from the Stewards perspective, but he might be willing to adapt the material for a &#39;competitors&#39; angle.

Yeah...there was a problem with a mechanical protest in 2004, but the NEDiv Stewards steppped up and addressed it with new training, excercises and procedures during the 2004-2005 offseason.

2006 Roundtable

[RSTPerformance]

Yeah I remember the presentation, I would suspect that we wil have another one this spring. Having engines, suspension parts, and what not may or may not help some, but for many of the stewards I think you need to experience the overwelming details that need to be hashed out for everyones best interest... A Mechanical Protest is not an easy thing to handle. Thier is a lot of money and generall a lot of people involved. It seems that it would be easy as it is black and white but it is not. (do you realize how hard it is for a non mechanic to figure out how many hours it takes to dismatle a complete engine, measure pieces parts, and rebuild it to race specs?)

I went through with having to deal with a full engine teardown last year in Spec Miata. I think that everyone was happy with the end results and I don&#39;t think that many people herd about it, but I can tell you that was a long day... Fortunatly we have a lot of good people in the Northeast that help out when push comes to shove.

Raymond "Good luck, and thanks for the backing :023: " Blethen

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance@Jan 4 2006, 02:35 PM
....., but for many of the stewards I think you need to experience the overwelming details that need to be hashed out for everyones best interest... ......



You nailed that one! It is essential to get that stuff figured first. having knowledgebale, and open experts on hand helps.


I went through with having to deal with a full engine teardown last year in Spec Miata. I think that everyone was happy with the end results and I don&#39;t think that many people herd about it, but I can tell you that was a long day... Fortunatly we have a lot of good people in the Northeast that help out when push comes to shove.

Raymond "Good luck, and thanks for the backing :023: " Blethen

70052


I DID hear about that one, AND I heard it was well done. It&#39;s one of the reasons I posted my comments to Bill about the system NOT being broken...it has clearly shown the ability to heal itself and learn from it&#39;s mistakes.