The right car

[Vince]

I want to eventually get into racing but need to start with a car that is of the friendlier side to the pocketbook.

I currently have a street legal 944 which I have started setting up for autocross and DE's, but am concerned about the costs of building and maintaining this car. Believe me I love the Porsche brand but I love sportscar racing more and have been on the side lines long enough (just turned 42 today) :023: . Before I go any further with spending money on my 944 I want to explore other options as far as car choice.

I want to stick with RWD. I am also a novice mechanic with limited free time so I want to stick to a car that is fairly easy to work on (I would not call the 944 novice friendly). I grew up around the GM brand (78 Camaro 305, 79 Firebird Formula 301). I'm wondering how a mid 80's- early 90's Camaro/Firebird would compare in cost and fun to a 1st or 2nd gen RX-7. Also other considerations are the Mustang or anyother suggestion.

Thanks for any help.

Vince

[lateapex911]

Happy Birthday Vince..I replied to you in the Mazda section, but, I'll add that the F body cars aren't really classed in IT at this time. They are classed as American Sedan cars (AS), but the prep level is higher...as in more expensive. You are allowed to substitute a Ford rear for your GM, IIRC, and so on.

[Geo]

Vince,

I am building a 944 for IT and to be honest, I don't think it's really any more expensive to build than our Sentra SE-R built to equivilent specs. the engine would be a bit more, but not as much as you might think.

I applaud you for looking at other cars to build or race. Too many people just get too worked up over wanting to race whatever car it is they are/have been into. Both gen1 and gen2 RX-7s are good car, although the gen1 could use some help in being competitive (as could the 944). Both the gen2 RX-7 and the 944 are a fair bit more to purchase as a built car than a gen1 RX-7.

If you would like more detailed info about building a 944 for ITS, e-mail me at: [email protected]

[JLawton]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 26 2005, 01:10 AM
Vince,

I am building a 944 for IT and to be honest, I don't think it's really any more expensive to build than our Sentra SE-R built to equivilent specs. the engine would be a bit more, but not as much as you might think.


69195


George, I have to respectfully disagree!!

My first IT car was a 944 and I "assume" you guys are talking a straight 944 and not a 944S. First, look at your starting horse power. Not a good match up to the other ITS cars. How much does Milledge get for one of his engines? And that only gets the horsepower up to 180+???

Unfortunately, just cause it says "Porsche" on the parts means it gets marked waaaaay up!! Look at the price of wheels, body panels, rear wheel bearings, trans axels, etc compared to anything but the BMW. And all that money gets you an uncompetitive car.......

Although, the reliability is great!! :023: In three years of PCA racing and two of ITS, I never had anything break!!

Then, there's the whole discussion of buying a built race car instead of building your own...... Sell the 944 and you're half way there in the money for an RX7........

[gran racing]

The way it is classed currently, it will never be a front-runner but the older ITA MR2 is very easy on the wallet. Talk with Jake here who races his. Tires - last forever!! Same with brakes and other parts. And the car is very well balanced. The newer MR2 might be an excellent choice although the donor car will cost more.

[Jake]

http://southeast.44cup.com/

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think one of the really smart things to do is to see what top companies are in your area. If you see a proliferation of BMW's, you may be in the Virginia area, you see RX-7's, you may be in the Southeast...

My point is that a top tuner like Bimmerworld, Speedsource, ISC, etc is an INVALUABLE asset to have when racing. Anyone can buy or build a car to race - but if you have local experts - who are proven successful - then you are one step ahead.

And, as always, the smart thing to do is go to a few races, see what is popular and competitive (and why) then make your decision. In my 15 years of motorsport, if I was getting into a new venture, the FIRST thing I would do is get a rulebook for that class, series, santioning body, etc.

Good luck and have fun!!!!

AB

[Knestis]

Andy makes a great point about tapping into your local knowledge base. It can save you a TON of money, time, and frustration.

There are cars out there that are essentially kits now - they've been pretty well figured out, you can get 90% close on the first purchase, and buyers (you) benefit from economies of scale. The RX7 is a great example of this.

It might be as simple as having a local service joint that specializes in a particular marque, so you can mooch time/help for things that are otherwise an expensive pain - pressing bearings and so forth.

You are limiting yourself a BUNCH by restricting your focus to RWD chassis, though. Once all of the wheels are working at high slip angles, it's a heck of a lot less important (I think, anyway) which tires are pushing the whole project forward. Make sure that you aren't biasing your thinking too much based on your autocross experiences, where FWD is much more of a handicap with all of those goofy-ass little corners...

Have fun!

K

[924Guy]

With a 924 you get the same great chassis, cheaper motor, and more competitive since they're in ITB. The only downside is that there aren't any out there built to win, 'cept mine, which isn't for sale. Then again, if you're wanting to build it yourself, that'd be fine.

Wouldn't recommend Rustangs; the only IT ones are the 4-cyl ones in ITB, and they're not hard to beat with a Porsche... or any other good German iron... ;)

[Vince]

B) Thanks everyone for the input!

I live about 3 1/2 hours from Roebling Road in Savannah, Ga. Fortunately I have family that lives only 10 minutes from the track so I have a place to bunk. I've been there for a few SCCA and NASA races.

I agree that I probably shouldn't rule out a FWD car, so the search will begin along with trying to explain to my wife why I'm exploring other options :bash_1_: On the other hand I'm still considering slowly building the 944 over the next couple of years while I start with DE's until I've eventually built the car. In other words stretch the costs over a couple of years (yes I'd rather find a good car already built, go to a school and start yesterday, but there is the $ thing :rolleyes: )

[Vince]

Originally posted by gran racing@Dec 26 2005, 02:35 PM
The way it is classed currently, it will never be a front-runner but the older ITA MR2 is very easy on the wallet. Talk with Jake here who races his. Tires - last forever!! Same with brakes and other parts. And the car is very well balanced. The newer MR2 might be an excellent choice although the donor car will cost more.

69203


Thanks! I haven't thought about an MR2 before but I would think the mid engine layout would make for a good track car. Thanks for the help!
Vince

[Vince]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 26 2005, 06:10 AM
Vince,

I am building a 944 for IT and to be honest, I don't think it's really any more expensive to build than our Sentra SE-R built to equivilent specs. the engine would be a bit more, but not as much as you might think.

I applaud you for looking at other cars to build or race. Too many people just get too worked up over wanting to race whatever car it is they are/have been into. Both gen1 and gen2 RX-7s are good car, although the gen1 could use some help in being competitive (as could the 944). Both the gen2 RX-7 and the 944 are a fair bit more to purchase as a built car than a gen1 RX-7.

If you would like more detailed info about building a 944 for ITS, e-mail me at: [email protected]

69195


Thanks George, If I decide to stay with the 944 I will definitely contact you.

Good luck with the car!
Vince B)

[Bill Miller]

Vince,

As Dave pointed out, an AW11 MR2 is probably a good beginner car (that's what I started with), but the downside is where it's classed. I was racing one of these back in the mid-90s, and people were trying to get it moved to ITB then. If it's on the ITAC 'list' to get adjusted, it may be a better choice. The car is a lot of fun to drive. All the suspension settings, on all 4 corners, are fully adjustable. It's got some nice balance, and generally 'feels' like a race car.

If you're set on RWD, you probably won't find a more common car than a 1st gen RX7. Again, won't be at the pointy end of the grid, but there are a TON of them out there, they're a known qunatity, from a development standpoint, and you'll probably find several at whatever track you're racing at. Some areas of the country even have spec series that they run in (I think where you are, they have IT7, which preps to ITA specs, but races only against themselves). Not to mention that built ones are readily available, and are pretty easy on the wallet.

All that being said, welcome to the monkey house! :happy204:

[Geo]

Originally posted by JLawton@Dec 26 2005, 06:28 AM
George, I have to respectfully disagree!!

My first IT car was a 944 and I "assume" you guys are talking a straight 944 and not a 944S. First, look at your starting horse power. Not a good match up to the other ITS cars. How much does Milledge get for one of his engines? And that only gets the horsepower up to 180+???

Unfortunately, just cause it says "Porsche" on the parts means it gets marked waaaaay up!! Look at the price of wheels, body panels, rear wheel bearings, trans axels, etc compared to anything but the BMW. And all that money gets you an uncompetitive car.......

Although, the reliability is great!! :023: In three years of PCA racing and two of ITS, I never had anything break!!

Then, there's the whole discussion of buying a built race car instead of building your own...... Sell the 944 and you're half way there in the money for an RX7........

69201


Sorry Jeff, but I think you're way off base here. I have already said the engine is a bit more. But, comparing a Milledge engine with a Sunbelt engine for the SE-R (or any other engine they build for that matter) and it's not all that much more. The engine is definitely the most expensive part of that proposition if you make a commitment to run up front.

All of the rest of the stuff for the 944 is pretty cheap in comparision. The gearboxes are just a bit more than the SE-R. The wheels are dirt cheap. I have two full sets of forged wheels I bought for $500 or less a set. Try to buy forged wheels for another car. The cast wheels I bought dirt cheap. The amount of good used parts available for the 944 is stagering.

Then there is the fact that all the development pieces necessary already exist for the 944. If you want to build another car for which this pieces don't exist, and you can't design them yourself and have ready access to someplace to have them made, the price is pretty danged high.

As for selling the 944 and being half way to an RX-7, have you tried to sell an NA 8v 944 recently? Unless it's pristine, they sell pretty cheaply.

Competitiveness is another issue, but that may change.

I stand by what I said. Built to the same level, the 944 is no more expensive to build than a Sentra SE-R other than the engine, and if you go with the top engine builders, the difference isn't all that much either.

If I lived in the SE, I think I'd buy a gen1 RX-7 and run IT7. Dirt cheap and it's one of the two most developed race cars in history. Assuming you don't ball it up, if you take good care of it when the time comes to move onto another type of car you should be able to get out of it pretty much what you put into it, expenses aside.

[Vince]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 27 2005, 01:09 PM
Sorry Jeff, but I think you're way off base here. I have already said the engine is a bit more. But, comparing a Milledge engine with a Sunbelt engine for the SE-R (or any other engine they build for that matter) and it's not all that much more. The engine is definitely the most expensive part of that proposition if you make a commitment to run up front.

All of the rest of the stuff for the 944 is pretty cheap in comparision. The gearboxes are just a bit more than the SE-R. The wheels are dirt cheap. I have two full sets of forged wheels I bought for $500 or less a set. Try to buy forged wheels for another car. The cast wheels I bought dirt cheap. The amount of good used parts available for the 944 is stagering.

Then there is the fact that all the development pieces necessary already exist for the 944. If you want to build another car for which this pieces don't exist, and you can't design them yourself and have ready access to someplace to have them made, the price is pretty danged high.

As for selling the 944 and being half way to an RX-7, have you tried to sell an NA 8v 944 recently? Unless it's pristine, they sell pretty cheaply.

Competitiveness is another issue, but that may change.

I stand by what I said. Built to the same level, the 944 is no more expensive to build than a Sentra SE-R other than the engine, and if you go with the top engine builders, the difference isn't all that much either.

If I lived in the SE, I think I'd buy a gen1 RX-7 and run IT7. Dirt cheap and it's one of the two most developed race cars in history. Assuming you don't ball it up, if you take good care of it when the time comes to move onto another type of car you should be able to get out of it pretty much what you put into it, expenses aside.

69271


IF anyone out there knows of someone with a first gen RX7 race ready or even street/track setup and not to expensive let me know. I live in South Georgia and can go a few hundred miles. Better yet if someone would like to trade for my 944 that would be an option. I'd also consider something other than an RX7 if it makes sense. My email is [email protected] or call me at 1-229-344-2313.

Thanks again!!!

Vince

[Bill Miller]

Funny you should say that Vince!

http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...?showtopic=6946 (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6946)

Right here in the classifieds. Not sure if you want to make the trip to Ohio or not though.

Other cars you may want to consider would be an S13 Nissan 240SX (ITA) or an S14 version (ITS).

What I will suggest, is to talk to a few people, go to some races this year, and see who's running what. A lot of times, you will pick a car because it lets you run in a group w/ your friends. The other thing you need to think about, is what are you long-range plans. Very few people I know keep their first race car for very long. Some because they want something else (usually faster), some because they went w/ an inexpensive car, just to get it, and it wasn't what they really wanted (not a bad thing, just a statement of fact), and others because things happen w/ new drivers (that's not to say that anything can't happen anytime, to anyone).

As I tell everyone, don't put a car on the track that you're not prepared to write off.


George (and Jeff),

The last thing I would suggest is for someone that's just starting out, to spend the big $$$ on a pro-built motor. More than likely, they're not going to be able to take advantage of the extra power, and the extra $$$ would probably be better spent on seat time or developing the car's suspension. I have no idea what a Milledge 944 lump costs, or a Sunbelt or Rebello Nissan lump, but I'm sure they're not cheap. I'd imagine that the Porsche is for sure on the North side of $5k, and the Nissan from either of those shops might be as well.

[latebrake]

Originally posted by Vince@Dec 26 2005, 01:09 AM
I want to eventually get into racing but need to start with a car that is of the friendlier side to the pocketbook.

I currently have a street legal 944 which I have started setting up for autocross and DE's, but am concerned about the costs of building and maintaining this car. Believe me I love the Porsche brand but I love sportscar racing more and have been on the side lines long enough (just turned 42 today) :023: . Before I go any further with spending money on my 944 I want to explore other options as far as car choice.

I want to stick with RWD. I am also a novice mechanic with limited free time so I want to stick to a car that is fairly easy to work on (I would not call the 944 novice friendly). I grew up around the GM brand (78 Camaro 305, 79 Firebird Formula 301). I'm wondering how a mid 80's- early 90's Camaro/Firebird would compare in cost and fun to a 1st or 2nd gen RX-7. Also other considerations are the Mustang or anyother suggestion.

Thanks for any help.

Vince

69192


First off you should never build a race car. I built one and bought one,second one was more fun.
Where are you on your car now?
The 944 wont run up front in ITS skin....
Spend your money on things like seat and H&N system,cool shirt,good fire system,these things can be moved to anything else you move up to later. The 944 isnt any different than anyother car. The trans are cheap if you look,engine is $500.00 to $15,000 you choose which one. They are safe well build cars.

Heres a good point to conisder. They run in NASA,SCCA,HSR,SVRA. If you are looking to race cheap you can pick a track and run with any of these groups when they are at your home track.
Dont spend a lot of cash on the power plant first off. Get things that make the car handle better and drive the car as much as you can afford.

** You will never out run the cubic dollar no matter what car you pick. **

If you have the bug its better to see how bad you got it before you spend the kids college fun on racing. They can be a pain to work on,have to pull the car apart to change the clutch,but you can change the trans in an hour after you do it once. Lowering the car is not as bad as its made out. I can change my T bars in 30 min or less. Lots of cars for cheap for body parts,I have several I got for free just to get them out of sight.
That said,you will never win anything until the car is moved. You may win in the 944 cup with NASA or spec 944 but not in ITS.

Lawrence

[Fastfred92]

And if Roebling is going to be your home track get a good handling car for whatever class you plan to run. Handling will be more important than HP if the majority of your events are there.

[Vince]

Originally posted by latebrake@Dec 27 2005, 03:09 PM
First off you should never build a race car. I built one and bought one,second one was more fun.
Where are you on your car now?
The 944 wont run up front in ITS skin....
Spend your money on things like seat and H&N system,cool shirt,good fire system,these things can be moved to anything else you move up to later. The 944 isnt any different than anyother car. The trans are cheap if you look,engine is $500.00 to $15,000 you choose which one. They are safe well build cars.

Heres a good point to conisder. They run in NASA,SCCA,HSR,SVRA. If you are looking to race cheap you can pick a track and run with any of these groups when they are at your home track.
Dont spend a lot of cash on the power plant first off. Get things that make the car handle better and drive the car as much as you can afford.

** You will never out run the cubic dollar no matter what car you pick. **

If you have the bug its better to see how bad you got it before you spend the kids college fun on racing. They can be a pain to work on,have to pull the car apart to change the clutch,but you can change the trans in an hour after you do it once. Lowering the car is not as bad as its made out. I can change my T bars in 30 min or less. Lots of cars for cheap for body parts,I have several I got for free just to get them out of sight.
That said,you will never win anything until the car is moved. You may win in the 944 cup with NASA or spec 944 but not in ITS.

Lawrence

69279


Thanks Lawrence, the car is stock all the way through except for deleting the A/C and PS, stripping the interior and upgrading the gauges. I'm wondering what I would need to upgrade to get it on the track. I know now I can take it to track events. But, when I am ready to race other than roll cage, fuel cell could I race the car in its stock form for the experience?

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Vince@Dec 27 2005, 02:07 PM
Thanks Lawrence, the car is stock all the way through except for deleting the A/C and PS, stripping the interior and upgrading the gauges. I'm wondering what I would need to upgrade to get it on the track. I know now I can take it to track events. But, when I am ready to race other than roll cage, fuel cell could I race the car in its stock form for the experience?

69308


Vince,

Unless you could get the car w/o power steering, I believe that you would have to put that back. Also, you are not required to run a fuel cell in IT.

Other than needing a cage, and the other related safety equipment, you can run the car totally bone stock. Keep in mind, that even in IT prep, a base 944 is not competitive, and that ITS is a very fast and competitive class. I think you might be better served by picking up an inexpensive car that's already built. A good cage and race seat w/ the associated belts, etc. will probably run you $2500 at a minimum. That's a long way towards a built car (IIRC, that guy in Ohio wanted $4k for his RX7).

[lateapex911]

I have a first gen RX-7and I looked at that ad. Not having seen the car, I can't say whether it is in good condition, but.....in '93 I sold my first RX7 for 3600, and it didn't have a third of the stuff that car has. Seems like a great price.

You could NEVER build one for that...or even double.

And the stuff on the car is good. Shocks are probably not the ideal, but they'll work.

If the guy is cool and you feel good about it, it's a great place to start you racing career. Little maintenance, and great resale.

(And if the ITA changes go through, it will look better there too.)

[Fastfred92]

Sit tight and see what happens with the 944, it would be a decent car at Roebling with a weight drop. That said it is always better to buy than build unless you have unlimited budget but sounds as if you are already half way there so a cage and some safety stuff and get on track, add as your wallet allows...

and you are fine with no power steering, some of the cars came to the US that way, my 83 sure did...

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 27 2005, 07:45 AM

George (and Jeff),

The last thing I would suggest is for someone that's just starting out, to spend the big $$$ on a pro-built motor. More than likely, they're not going to be able to take advantage of the extra power, and the extra $$$ would probably be better spent on seat time or developing the car's suspension. I have no idea what a Milledge 944 lump costs, or a Sunbelt or Rebello Nissan lump, but I'm sure they're not cheap. I'd imagine that the Porsche is for sure on the North side of $5k, and the Nissan from either of those shops might be as well.

69276


Sorry if my point got muddled. I'm not suggesting a pro-built engine. I was only trying to point out that the 944 is not anywhere near as expensive to build as most people think. The main difference is in a pro-built engine. And if you choose a car where IT prep items are not readily available (such as a Sentra SE-R), it could actually be MORE expensive to build properly than a 944 where everything necessary is available.

[latebrake]

Originally posted by Vince@Dec 27 2005, 02:07 PM
Thanks Lawrence, the car is stock all the way through except for deleting the A/C and PS, stripping the interior and upgrading the gauges. I'm wondering what I would need to upgrade to get it on the track. I know now I can take it to track events. But, when I am ready to race other than roll cage, fuel cell could I race the car in its stock form for the experience?

69308


The 944 was shipped all over the world and the US without A/C so getting rid of the thing is legal in IT.
If you have a roll cage you are almost there. If not look on the 44Cup site and check out several that are for sale. Auto Power bolt in cages are there for cheap. $400.00 the last oneI remember. Weld the thing in and add the door bars and its done. Can be moved too.

Run the car stock until you need the HP. As I mentioned before spend the cash on things that can be moved or can save your life in this car or any other.
The cool shirt is a true performance upgrade. Good for 50+ HP when its too hot to think.
The fire system will make the guys on your shoulder shut up about burning to death. The Hans will do the same thing. Change the foot well and make a racing cockpit out of it.

Now after all that, if you can find someone who is getting out of racing and has a car that is truly well sorted to race,,,,buy that one and have fun driving.

I am in finance so I know what I am talking about on this one. Find a 15000 car,buy it for 7500.00,go to the bank and borrow the money,dont race until the car is paid for,work on it to make it YOUR car. You can take it to school or DE days and behave yourself. thats 40 t0 60% on the dollor or very close,cant do the math with out the car #'s. Sounds crazy to tell someone to borrow the cash to get a toy but you save so much money its worth it.
Dont blame it on me if you crash the thing and still have to make the payments HA!!!

Lawrence

[924Guy]

Manual steering is indeed legit, but you do have to swap in the manual rack, not just empty the fluid out of the power rack and remove the drive belt.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by 924Guy@Dec 28 2005, 11:12 AM
Manual steering is indeed legit, but you do have to swap in the manual rack, not just empty the fluid out of the power rack and remove the drive belt.

69387


Not sure on the 924 but this is especially true for Miata's as the PS version had a quicker ratio - so a 'manual' version of teh PS rack would be a configuration that didn't come from Mazda - ever. It is specifically allowed in SM so that is why they exist for those who may be thinking that.

AB

[Fastfred92]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 28 2005, 05:21 AM
Sorry if my point got muddled. I'm not suggesting a pro-built engine. I was only trying to point out that the 944 is not anywhere near as expensive to build as most people think. The main difference is in a pro-built engine. And if you choose a car where IT prep items are not readily available (such as a Sentra SE-R), it could actually be MORE expensive to build properly than a 944 where everything necessary is available.

69372



If it helps I can give some real world $$$ #'s ( ask me how I know ).. These prices are for a few years ago ( except miata ) so adjust accordingly: All pro built to the current ( at that time IT or similar club rules )
944 2.5 = $6000 parts and labor inc. 4 hrs dyno tune
e36 2.5 = $6200 parts and labor plus $900 dyno tune/ burn chips (pre motec)*
SM = $4500 turn key.... ( spec miata rules )

*You can now add $4-6k to the e36 for motec in the box with tuning to get the extra hp....
Most of the labor cost will be in IT headwork and machine shop,...

[Z3_GoCar]

Originally posted by Fastfred92@Dec 28 2005, 10:21 AM
If it helps I can give some real world $$$ #'s ( ask me how I know ).. These prices are for a few years ago ( except miata ) so adjust accordingly: All pro built to the current ( at that time IT or similar club rules )
944 2.5 = $6000 parts and labor inc. 4 hrs dyno tune
e36 2.5 = $6200 parts and labor plus $900 dyno tune/ burn chips (pre motec)*
SM = $4500 turn key.... ( spec miata rules )

*You can now add $4-6k to the e36 for motec in the box with tuning to get the extra hp....
Most of the labor cost will be in IT headwork and machine shop,...

69389


:blink: I think your spec-miata estimate is off. Back in September I almost bought a SM that was a top ten finisher, Barry Hartzel preped, with a Rebello motor. The price tag was just North of 23k. I think the car that Justin Hall won the west coast chanpionship with went for 32k. The 944 has a good development base, and isn't as expensive as some think. It's been racing and winning since SSGT in the mid 80's. I think that since you've got the interior out already, go for a good weld in cage, a local cage builder can do a better job for much less than you think, and never skimp on safety. You'll be good to go.

James

[Fastfred92]

Originally posted by Z3_GoCar@Dec 28 2005, 05:38 PM
:blink: I think your spec-miata estimate is off. Back in September I almost bought a SM that was a top ten finisher, Barry Hartzel preped, with a Rebello motor. The price tag was just North of 23k. I think the car that Justin Hall won the west coast chanpionship with went for 32k. The 944 has a good development base, and isn't as expensive as some think. It's been racing and winning since SSGT in the mid 80's. I think that since you've got the interior out already, go for a good weld in cage, a local cage builder can do a better job for much less than you think, and never skimp on safety. You'll be good to go.

James

69390

Maybe to be a bit clearer, those are amounts paid, not estimates and that was with suppling the usable core engine to start with. Engine builder all have different prices so you cost may vary.... Buying a built car and buying a winning built car is two different things

[924Guy]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 28 2005, 12:15 PM
Not sure on the 924 but this is especially true for Miata's as the PS version had a quicker ratio - so a 'manual' version of teh PS rack would be a configuration that didn't come from Mazda - ever. It is specifically allowed in SM so that is why they exist for those who may be thinking that.

AB

69388


I was talking about the 944, which came with manuals early on (same spec line). The 924 never came with power steering. Before anyone gets wound up, I said the 924, not the 924S, which is PS-equipped, different engine, different IT class.

924 motors, pro-built, still cost the same as VW motors... 3-5k. They're just faster. ;)

[latebrake]

Originally posted by 924Guy@Dec 28 2005, 06:46 PM
I was talking about the 944, which came with manuals early on (same spec line). The 924 never came with power steering. Before anyone gets wound up, I said the 924, not the 924S, which is PS-equipped, different engine, different IT class.

924 motors, pro-built, still cost the same as VW motors... 3-5k. They're just faster. ;)

69413


Hi Vaughan, What does the 924 in ITB weigh? How much HP can you get from a fresh legal engine? I have a friend with a PCA car with the turbo nose,can this be run in ITB? Can carbs be run in ITB,if not is a mch FI required or can an after marker computer EFI be used?

Can carbs be used in ITA? If so are they worth the trouble for the HP?

Lawrence

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by 924Guy@Dec 28 2005, 04:46 PM
I was talking about the 944, which came with manuals early on (same spec line). The 924 never came with power steering. Before anyone gets wound up, I said the 924, not the 924S, which is PS-equipped, different engine, different IT class.

924 motors, pro-built, still cost the same as VW motors... 3-5k. They're just faster. ;)

69413


No confusion, just sighting that there may be issues with power racks converted to manual and their legality on some cars.

AB

[Geo]

Originally posted by Fastfred92@Dec 28 2005, 10:21 AM
If it helps I can give some real world $$$ #'s ( ask me how I know ).. These prices are for a few years ago ( except miata ) so adjust accordingly: All pro built to the current ( at that time IT or similar club rules )
944 2.5 = $6000 parts and labor inc. 4 hrs dyno tune
e36 2.5 = $6200 parts and labor plus $900 dyno tune/ burn chips (pre motec)*
SM = $4500 turn key.... ( spec miata rules )

*You can now add $4-6k to the e36 for motec in the box with tuning to get the extra hp....
Most of the labor cost will be in IT headwork and machine shop,...

69389


Are those prices for a Milledge 944 engine and a Sunbelt E36 engine and a Sunbelt SM engine? Let's compare best to best. The rest is simply hard to compare.

[Fastfred92]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 29 2005, 02:26 AM
Are those prices for a Milledge 944 engine and a Sunbelt E36 engine and a Sunbelt SM engine? Let's compare best to best. The rest is simply hard to compare.

69424


George
Without consent I would not discuss who the builder was however I will tell you that the FL based 944 builder had a long background in Firehawk, SSA etc. and Sunbelt's BMW fame has been built by in large in the last few years inc. post motec years, before that many a ITS race was won ( still is ) using another builders goods. I would also offer that a SM engine builder here in good old NC won as many big races, pro, etc this year as any other..... the best is an opinion,,, at best. :023:

[924Guy]

Originally posted by latebrake@Dec 28 2005, 06:06 PM
Hi Vaughan, What does the 924 in ITB weigh? How much HP can you get from a fresh legal engine? I have a friend with a PCA car with the turbo nose,can this be run in ITB? Can carbs be run in ITB,if not is a mch FI required or can an after marker computer EFI be used?

Can carbs be used in ITA? If so are they worth the trouble for the HP?

Lawrence

69414


It scales at 2600#, which I make with 40# of lead and half a tank of gas; I also weigh about 150, so there's still a little room there for more normal weight drivers. I'm afraid I can't answer about the engine, since I haven't dynoed mine yet, and besides which that's home-built, not pro-built. However I'd hope mine is maybe around 130hp at the crank. Might be able to get a bit more from a pro-built one, but I haven't even bothered calling to ask, since I don't have the cash - no point depressing myself!

The rest of your questions would be answered by reading the IT rules - doesn't sound like you're at all very familiar with them. No, you're not allowed to change sheetmetal, or run carbs; you must run the stock CIS. Any further 924-specific Q's, chase me and the other ITB 924 guys down on the Racing forum of 924board.org.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Fastfred92@Dec 28 2005, 08:52 PM
George
Without consent I would not discuss who the builder was however I will tell you that the FL based 944 builder had a long background in Firehawk, SSA etc. and Sunbelt's BMW fame has been built by in large in the last few years inc. post motec years, before that many a ITS race was won ( still is ) using another builders goods. I would also offer that a SM engine builder here in good old NC won as many big races, pro, etc this year as any other..... the best is an opinion,,, at best. :023:

69432


Fair enough.

I still don't think the cost of an equal quality engine would be all that different.

Bottom line is I think a well developed 944 would not be much more expensive than a well developed Sentra SE-R (or a number of other cars).

[Fastfred92]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 30 2005, 04:15 AM
Fair enough.

I still don't think the cost of an equal quality engine would be all that different.

Bottom line is I think a well developed 944 would not be much more expensive than a well developed Sentra SE-R (or a number of other cars).

69545


I agree with you on that...... now if we could just get enough weight shaved off the 44 I might just consider building another one myself..... hmmm

[Vince]

Originally posted by Fastfred92@Dec 30 2005, 03:37 PM
I agree with you on that...... now if we could just get enough weight shaved off the 44 I might just consider building another one myself..... hmmm

69569


I appreciate all the information, now I'm wondering whether it would be better to just keep what I have rather than sell or trade for an RX7 and run it stock (the 944) especially since I have taken care of all the oil leaks, replaced the FP, FPR and fuel filter. I also had the balance shaft belt replaced and new timing belt. The guy I bought from just replaced the master cylinder and brake pads all around(probably OEM) and I just drained the transaxle fluid and put in Mobile 1. The interior is also stripped out including rear seat.

Here are some questions about getting the 944 track legal w/o an engine overhaul or engine replacement and do people start this way?

1.) THe engine is totally stock except for the deletion of the A/C and power steering pump. Suspension as far as I can tell is stock. Are there any mods I would need to do or would be recommended to make the engine last longer that doesn't involve big bucks?

2.) How do I findout if I would need to put on a manual steering rack (because the ps pump has been removed)?

3.) Other than a cage and racing seat(s) with harness what else will I need to make track legal? transponder? (what does this do?)

4.) What happens if my car is now too light? It has got to be 150-200lbs lighter than it was after pulling off the a/c, ps, and rear seat.

5.) If I add just the cage and seats and get it on the track is it going to be TOO uncompetitive that it is either dangerous or no fun at all? (My goal in the beginning is to just get track experience but not at the expense of safety).

6.) And as far as safety goes I would want a fire system, what kind of money for a decent setup?

There are alot of questions, if you want just list the question number you are responding to and again thank you for the help :023:

Vince

[JamesB]

Vince, goto the scca website and download the full GCR and start reading it. that would give you want you need for safety, cage and other requirements. Then let the 944 guys chime in on anything you need to change to extend the life of the drivetrain.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Vince+Dec 30 2005, 01:59 PM-->
1.) THe engine is totally stock except for the deletion of the A/C and power steering pump. Suspension as far as I can tell is stock. Are there any mods I would need to do or would be recommended to make the engine last longer that doesn't involve big bucks?
69621
[/b]

Accusump. This is arguable, but the 944 does have a well know apetite for the number 2 rod bearing. Lots of strategies to prevent it. The Accusump and baffling are your only legal solutions.


Originally posted by Vince@Dec 30 2005, 01:59 PM
2.) How do I findout if I would need to put on a manual steering rack (because the ps pump has been removed)?

69621


You either need the full working PS system or the manual rack. From what I can tell it's a Fielder's Choice.


Originally posted by Vince@Dec 30 2005, 01:59 PM
4.) What happens if my car is now too light?

69621


It won't be.

<!--QuoteBegin-Vince@Dec 30 2005, 01:59 PM
5.) If I add just the cage and seats and get it on the track is it going to be TOO uncompetitive that it is either dangerous or no fun at all?
69621


That is going to remain to be seen. I think the 944 will be a reasonably decent car for ITS in the future.

[Ron Earp]

Vince,

I&#39;m not too far ahead of you in this game of racing IT; I&#39;ve been trying since August of 2004 . I don&#39;t know about your local support network, but one thing that has really helped me is that I&#39;ve got a "family" of local racers who are bringing me up and exposing me to a lot of different things in a short amount of time. As such I&#39;ve been able to start building my Jensen Healey, built one Spec Miata with a friend, about to finish a second Spec Miata, done a few races including a 13 hour with the Miata I built, and spent a lot of time fooling around a cantankerous 260Z and rather obtuse TR8. It has been fun!

But when I look back on it all I can clearly see all of the activities didn&#39;t result in my primary goal - getting on track, racing, and becoming a better racer. I did become a much better mechanic though, and the decisions I made with respect to my goal of racing were clearly my own. However, you need to carefully consider your path so that you achieve your goals in a reasonable amount of time. Positive re-enforcement will keep you coming back for more, negative results will frustrate you - I&#39;ve been there with the latter feeling a number of times! Although this is a hobby, a lot is at stake here. Money, time, personal relationships all play into the cost of racing.

You are embarking on a big task, that is, building a competitive car for ITS. I think the 944 can be a top car in ITS and I&#39;ve seen one race from the NE (I&#39;m in the SE) that I felt was very well prepared and I hope to see it running at the front in 2006. But, you are getting ready to spend a lot of money building a car and it&#39;ll be awhile before you see some seat time.

A number of people cautioned me to simply purchase a running race car and get some experience and seat time. I eventually did this with the help of Jeff Young here on the forum because it was apparent to me that while I liked building cars, building a car uses a lot of time and money and delays your on track experience.

I think a couple of folks here have suggested getting a Spec Miata and running it in SM or ITA. I would agree. Jeff and I have just helped get three new friends into racing (they attend school in two weeks) and they purchased a SM for $7000. No, it isn&#39;t a top runner, but it is solid, will get one of them through school, and be racable in 2006 either in SM or ITA. ITA is, IMHO, the most competitive field and having a car there would be a lot of fun. $7000 is barely going to get you a good custom cage, mechanical work to fix issues, springs/shocks, tires, graphics, seat, nets, gear, transponder, harness etc. for your 944 - even if it will get those things, and I doubt it will. $7000 doesn&#39;t go far when building a car, but your dollar goes a lot further in RaceLand when you are buying someone else&#39;s car.

And, of course, there are RX7s and other cars out there for reasonable money too. Purchasing one of them can certainly get you on track quickly whilst you sort out how to proceed with the 944. I like the idea of building a 944 for ITS, it&#39;ll be a good car. But it is going to take a lot of development, money, and time to run upfront. Heck, even to get her on track is going to take some decent amount of coin to achieve.

I&#39;m not really trying to tell you which way to go or sway you. Just wanting to relay my experiences to you and maybe provide some guidance from someone at essentially the same point as you. I think if I were to do it all over again I&#39;d probably go out and purchase a teched and running race car from a racer and start running it. Then, whilst I was doing that, I could decide what class I wanted to race in and pick my car accordingly. I don&#39;t regret my choice, but when looking at the big picture my choice was not the best one to achieve my ultimate goal - get on track and start racing. Seat time is king.

Ron

[924Guy]

As Geo&#39;s said, there is no question, you will need to either reinstall the PS pump or switch to a manual rack.

Yes, cage, seat, fire system recommended (though you don&#39;t need more than a handheld per the rules), kill switch, disable ignition lock, window net, etc.

Regarding #5; you can make a go of it with a fairly stock engine, maybe little things like balancing, a chip, cold air intake. This is particularly true since you&#39;re starting out. But you will really be hating yourself if your suspension is still stock. My first year out, mine was; way too much body roll to make it work and get much out of the tires. Sure, it handles very well from the get-go, as the cars are fundamentally excellent, but while it&#39;ll be neutral and driveable, it won&#39;t be close to optimized.

At a bare minimum I&#39;d recommend shocks obviously (Koni yellows are popular, though their longevity is limited, I&#39;m not running them anymore), swaybars (Weltmeister, naturally), and replace all the front bushings with poly or the like. Don&#39;t forget the strut mounts too, too much flex to want to keep those stock.

If your budget can swing it, you won&#39;t regret bigger springs, torsion bars, and adjustable spring perches; then you&#39;ll be able to keep the car nice and flat in the corners and corner-balance it properly to boot, which is huge. Most common setup is 30mm rear bars and 300-400# front springs; Geo&#39;s gone up to 32&#39;s as I recall, and I&#39;ve jumped up to 34&#39;s (wiht 660# front springs). Depends a bit on your swaybar setup too; I&#39;m still running the stock front swaybar, and only 19mm in the rear. Major downside to this is the t-bars are a major PITA to install (itme-consuming, not really difficult), not to mention expensive - the off-the-shelf 30s are around 300 IIRC, and the larger ones are custom-order and closer to 500 IIRC.

But whether or not you do the springs and t-bars, you definitely must get it properly corner-balanced and aligned before you hit the track - basic setup will make or break the driveability of the car.

We can chase this further, but it may be a bit early yet (in your build cycle). Another thing that comes up - where are you? Oftentimes having a knowleadgeable resource close by can help a LOT when doing a build.

I&#39;m not supposed to say this, since it&#39;s not really the right way to do things - but I&#39;m known for plunging in over my head and swimming regardless: I built my very first racecar, that&#39;s my current ITB 924, and it&#39;s now quite successful with many years of development (of both car and driver). The only way I was able to make it happen on time was, without question, a lot of very helpful experienced individuals, including neighbors, who&#39;d done other IT cars before. Gotta have local help to make it happen on-time.

[924Guy]

Of course, you could have the best of both worlds and buy this ex-Broadfoot car... ;)
http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...?showtopic=6908 (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6908)

[Vince]

Originally posted by 924Guy@Dec 31 2005, 03:36 PM
Of course, you could have the best of both worlds and buy this ex-Broadfoot car... ;)
http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...?showtopic=6908 (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6908)

69671


Thanks! Albert Broadfoot is actually the reason I bought my 944. I meet him about 7 or 8 months ago watching a race at Roebling Road. I did not know at the time the following Broadfoot racing has in the 944 world. Also met his wife, both are very nice people. Albert&#39;s point about the 944 is that start with a decent car and build slowly to keep from busting the bank. Good advice if you are patient :( not one of my virtues). I was ready to race yesterday :lol:

I still might go with Broadfoot&#39;s advice especially since I have about 4 more months of working on a bachelors degree (20+ year old school college veteran- 80&#39;s rule! ;) ) and will not have the time I want to spend with getting started racing until late spring.

[Geo]

I don&#39;t know how to put this delicately, but.....

Be very very careful buying a Broadfoot car for IT. EVERY Broadfoot IT car I&#39;ve ever seen photos of have had a number of illegal parts. Albert is well liked and I think probably knows the PCA rules better than the IT rules. I&#39;m sure he&#39;s a good car builder. But know your rule book. You could end up sending money you didn&#39;t want to spend getting your car legal.

I have absolutely nothing against Albert and he and his wife seem to be very good people. Just be sure of what you&#39;re getting.

[Vince]

Originally posted by rlearp@Dec 31 2005, 02:45 PM
Vince,

I&#39;m not too far ahead of you in this game of racing IT; I&#39;ve been trying since August of 2004 . But when I look back on it all I can clearly see all of the activities didn&#39;t result in my primary goal - getting on track, racing, and becoming a better racer. I did become a much better mechanic though, and the decisions I made with respect to my goal of racing were clearly my own. a racer and start running it. Then, whilst I was doing that, I could decide what class I wanted to race in and pick my car accordingly. I don&#39;t regret my choice, but when looking at the big picture my choice was not the best one to achieve my ultimate goal - get on track and start racing. Seat time is king.

Ron

69664


Ron, what you are saying makes a lot of sense and I am on par. First, I don&#39;t mind working on a car (minor fixes) but my primary goal is to see if I will like racing. I&#39;ve done some autocrosses and they&#39;re fun but I would like to experience more than (6) seventy five second runs in a day. My goal for this year is to do a DE see if I like it, if so (can&#39;t imagine not) then plan on a few more. Also do a few autocrosses (easy on the wallet and might make a few more car friends).

Although I have wanted to race sports cars since I was a kid and playing with slot cars , I want to make sure driving on the track is not going to scare the %$#@ out of me. I figure the DE&#39;s might give me a taste of racing even though its not W2W.

I think my next step will be to see what I can get for my 944 and find a car already built to race (1st or 2nd gen RX7 or something in the price range) and use this car for the DE&#39;s then next year plan on a race school. I also know volunteering to help work a race is a good way to learn so I&#39;ll probably do that to.
Thanks again for the input.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Vince@Dec 31 2005, 08:59 PM
Although I have wanted to race sports cars since I was a kid and playing with slot cars , I want to make sure driving on the track is not going to scare the %$#@ out of me. I figure the DE&#39;s might give me a taste of racing even though its not W2W.

69725


DE will not do that for you. If you want to find out, buy a racing kart and go racing. Shoot in a year of karting you will learn more than you would in 5 years of club racing. You&#39;ll learn racecraft and you&#39;ll certainly get used to running W2W and you&#39;ll know if it&#39;s going to scare you.

[Vince]

Originally posted by 924Guy@Dec 31 2005, 03:25 PM
As Geo&#39;s said, there is no question, you will need to either reinstall the PS pump or switch to a manual rack.

I&#39;m not supposed to say this, since it&#39;s not really the right way to do things - but I&#39;m known for plunging in over my head and swimming regardless: I built my very first racecar, that&#39;s my current ITB 924, and it&#39;s now quite successful with many years of development (of both car and driver). The only way I was able to make it happen on time was, without question, a lot of very helpful experienced individuals, including neighbors, who&#39;d done other IT cars before. Gotta have local help to make it happen on-time.

69669


Thanks Vaughn, at 42 and finishing up a bachelors degree I should have finished years ago (along with raising two teenagers). I don&#39;t have much time on my hands to spend working on a car, fortunately I&#39;ll be finished with school in late spring, but I think at this point I am going to get rid of the 944 and put the money in a car already built and see what happens. Then I have been known to change my mind :rolleyes:

[Vince]

Originally posted by Geo@Jan 1 2006, 04:03 AM
DE will not do that for you. If you want to find out, buy a racing kart and go racing. Shoot in a year of karting you will learn more than you would in 5 years of club racing. You&#39;ll learn racecraft and you&#39;ll certainly get used to running W2W and you&#39;ll know if it&#39;s going to scare you.

69726


I really don&#39;t think I&#39;ll have a problem with W2W, I&#39;ve been through Atlanta rush hour enough.

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Vince@Dec 31 2005, 11:59 PM
I think my next step will be to see what I can get for my 944 and find a car already built to race (1st or 2nd gen RX7 or something in the price range) and use this car for the DE&#39;s then next year plan on a race school. I also know volunteering to help work a race is a good way to learn so I&#39;ll probably do that to.
Thanks again for the input.

69725


I think you are making a good decision and I bet some others agree. I just read you were in school too, that just makes it harder to assemble a car. I&#39;d hate to see someone get lost in a big project while trying to race. But, on the other hand, I&#39;m sure you can do both too - there is a big support network and people like to help a new racer - I know, I&#39;ve experienced it myself and folks in the SCCA IT world are a good bunch.

I&#39;ve got some good contacts in NC for RX7 racers and I&#39;ll see if they can turn up a running car. I was told of a fantastic one for sale a couple of months ago when we were looking for the three fellows I mentioned in my eariler post and see if it is still around. They just decided to go SM, but the car would have been a good one.

Ron

[Vince]

Originally posted by rlearp@Jan 1 2006, 12:11 PM
I think you are making a good decision and I bet some others agree. I just read you were in school too, that just makes it harder to assemble a car. I&#39;d hate to see someone get lost in a big project while trying to race. But, on the other hand, I&#39;m sure you can do both too - there is a big support network and people like to help a new racer - I know, I&#39;ve experienced it myself and folks in the SCCA IT world are a good bunch.

I&#39;ve got some good contacts in NC for RX7 racers and I&#39;ll see if they can turn up a running car. I was told of a fantastic one for sale a couple of months ago when we were looking for the three fellows I mentioned in my eariler post and see if it is still around. They just decided to go SM, but the car would have been a good one.

Ron

69742


Thanks Ron, I appreciate the help. :)

I posted my 944 in the "Wanted" area of the IT web-site to see if there is anyone out there that might want to trade for a race ready car. I will have pics of my car ready today. As far as a straight sell I&#39;m not sure of what to ask for it I&#39;ve put over $6,000 ($3,000 for the car plus repairs/upgrades) in it since I bought it three months ago, I will take any reasonable offer.

Thanks again!

Vince
[email protected]

[Ron Earp]

Looks like a nice RX7 for sale right now in the 703 area code, and, I think you&#39;ll be getting some email shortly on where another nice one is for sale!

Ron

[Vince]

Originally posted by Geo@Jan 1 2006, 01:53 AM
I don&#39;t know how to put this delicately, but.....

Be very very careful buying a Broadfoot car for IT. EVERY Broadfoot IT car I&#39;ve ever seen photos of have had a number of illegal parts. Albert is well liked and I think probably knows the PCA rules better than the IT rules. I&#39;m sure he&#39;s a good car builder. But know your rule book. You could end up sending money you didn&#39;t want to spend getting your car legal.

I have absolutely nothing against Albert and he and his wife seem to be very good people. Just be sure of what you&#39;re getting.

69720


Geoge,

thanks for looking out for a Newbie.
:023:

[Geo]

Originally posted by Vince@Dec 31 2005, 09:15 PM
I really don&#39;t think I&#39;ll have a problem with W2W, I&#39;ve been through Atlanta rush hour enough.

69728



I was just responding to when you wrote:

"Although I have wanted to race sports cars since I was a kid and playing with slot cars , I want to make sure driving on the track is not going to scare the %$#@ out of me. I figure the DE&#39;s might give me a taste of racing even though its not W2W."

[Geo]

Originally posted by Vince@Dec 31 2005, 09:10 PM
Thanks Vaughn, at 42 and finishing up a bachelors degree I should have finished years ago (along with raising two teenagers). I don&#39;t have much time on my hands to spend working on a car, fortunately I&#39;ll be finished with school in late spring, but I think at this point I am going to get rid of the 944 and put the money in a car already built and see what happens. Then I have been known to change my mind :rolleyes:

69727


Good for you on getting your degree!

While the gen 1 RX-7 isn&#39;t exactly a competitive car these days, I&#39;d strongly consider one as a first race car. They are reasonably cheap, relatively common, and have a rather stable value.

After you get some experience and get a better idea what you might want, then either build or buy what you would ultimately want.