RX-7, Miata vs 944?

[Vince]

I am interested in hearing from either RX-7 or Miata owners on there opinions/thoughts/advise about racing a Mazda.

I have never raced, just a few autocrosses, and want to move toward racing. I figure I can start with some track days and progress. I am trying to find the right car for my budget. A few months ago I sold my 87' 300 ZX N/A and bought an 84' Porsche 944. I thought this would be a good car to start with but now I'm second guessing, it seems every time I turn around I'm sinking more money into the car ($3,000+ in repairs plus what I payed for the car) just to make it realiable (stock form). Because of budget reasons I'm not sure I bought the right car.

I see varying costs of 1st and 2nd Gen Rx-7's and early Miatas. I'd like to know what I could/would expect for engine and suspension costs (upkeep) and if you have an idea of whether it is more or less than a 944.

Any help is welcomed from this wanabe racer.

Thanks,
Vince

[lateapex911]

Welcome to the madness Vince...

If money is an issue, and hey...we're IT racers! It should be! LOL...then the first thing you will hear is that you should buy a built and logbooked race car.

You will pay about 40 cents on the dollar, or less, in many cases.

In other words, if you go buy, say, a 1st gen chassis, and build it to a level that is safe, raceable, and gets a logbook, you will have spent about twice what it would cost to buy an already built one.

On top of that, the previous owner will supply the experience he has had with the car, it's setup sheets, and a bunch of spare parts. And it saves a ton of time.

So, thats the "Buy a built car" speech, LOL.

As to the question, the ultimate competiveness of the models you are looking at are debateable, of course, but......

THe 944 is currently not a known frontrunner.
The 2nd gen RX-7 does very well, as long as well built and well driven BMWs don't show.
The 1st gen RX-7 has been outclasses in ITA at this point.
And the Miata in A (1.6 or 1.8) are great choices, although they are thought of as just behind the 1st tier cars in ITA.

That said, it all might change. The ITAC, (Improved Touring Advisory Committee) has submitted a proposal that adds weights, subtracts weights and moves certain cars to meet a weight setting process that seeks to equilize the cars within each class.

The proposal is awaiting CRB and BoD approval.

IF it passes, the comments about the 944 and the RX-7 could be nullified to some degree. So don't write them off ....yet.

As for cost, the higher classes often cost more....You can find a good amount of 1st gens for low end bucks...say $5K... ITA Miatas are scarcer...and a bit pricier.

I imagine a good ITS RX-7 would run in the $10K range and up ...and if you want a known top drawer car think more like $20K. 944s that are ITS prepped are very rare...so pricing is impossible to nail down.

As for running costs, thats a tough one. Good rotaries are known for long lives with lots of overrevving...a good thing for a racer. But don't overheat them!!!!! The Miata has shown great reliability as well, and the 944 would be better addressed by the PCA guys.

That said, blow a 944 motor, and suck it in..it won't be cheap. By contrast you could build a rotary for as little as $1500 if the basic parts are sound. Tires for ITS cars cost more and the build costs are a bit higher too.

The cheapest car on your list, both to buy and run is the 1st gen 7...but buy one with spares...the engines are starting to get scarce.

Lastly, Mazda has a super racer support program, weigh that in your thoughts as well.

Stay tuned for the results of the ITAC proposal...

[Newbie]

Welcome to the madness...it's well worth it.

I ended up with a 2nd gen RX-7 kind of by default. I was looking to buy half a car with a friend/customer. After we found the 944, one of his existing partners (and the 3rd guy we attended Skippy school with) decided he wanted in on the action. They bought the 944 and I bought an '87 Speedsource built RX-7. As it turns out, I got the best end of the deal....

Lesson #1, don't share the car. Those guys had tons of trouble double stinting the car (ITS and EP). One or the other always broke it, so somebody was almost always pissed off. :bash_1_:

The other fact is that while I spent money on tires, they spent it on motors and suspension parts as well as tires. I have not asked the cost, but they went through 2 motors due to some self inflicted wounds. That, plus the fact that Porsche parts cost more than Mazda parts adds up to a huge cost advantage towards the Mazda.

Their 944 is way set up (maybe a bit illegal) and handles very well. It is unbelievable in the corners and under braking. Still, I can regularly beat one of the guys, and regularly loose to the other. It comes down to the driver (I WILL get him next year).

When we switched cars for fun, I was reminded of how easy it is to "money shift" a Porsche...luckily, I was aware what was happening before the clutch was all the way out (both times) or it may have been 3 motors! The rotary has an advantage for new drivers, and I can attest to that.

Like my friend says, "Porches are whiney little Bit#@$S just like my wife, but I love them (her) anyways". If you want to run PCA races, you need a P car.

Final analysis after one season....Performance...Mazda (hey, their car is illegal, and I beat the other 944's). Cost...Mazda. Maintenance cost....Mazda. Support...Mazda. Fuel cost (87 octane vs. the 100 they need to burn) Mazda. Styling...Porsche. Snob appeal...Porsche.

Either way, get out there and race. I waited 'till I was almost 40 and wish I'd have done it at 20. Chances are this will not be your last race car. If you've got the money, get a pre-built car. If you just want to get out on the track and get some experience, do what makes sense within your budget and think about future seasons.

Good luck,

Steve

PS...the NEWBIE name will be available pretty soon, feel free to grab it. I shed the X, now I'm ready to pretend I have experience!

[ddewhurst]

Vince, where do you live & what tracks will you race on. Impacts the race car you by.

Example, in the SCCA Central Division & the South East Division they have a class called IT7. This is a ITA legal 1st generation RX-7 which races in it's own race class called IT7. In Cal. they have several classes vfor is gen RX-7's.

BUY............... :023:

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by ddewhurst@Dec 26 2005, 03:28 PM
<snip> ...they have a class called IT7. This is a ITA legal 1st generation RX-7 which races in it&#39;s own race class called IT7...

<snip>

BUY............... :023:
69207


Vince,

As a certified 1st gen bigot, I whole-heartedly agree with running IT7 (if it&#39;s a choice for you). Here in the Southeast there are usually quite a few cars and always someone to run with.

I also agree with the "buy" argument. Particularly for IT7. For comparison, I&#39;ve seen 2nd gens for 15-20K, Miatas for 10-12K and 1st gens for 5-6K.

Whatever you decide, welcome to the madness. Hope you enjoy it!

[Vince]

Thanks for the help! :023:
Great Forum!

The 1st Gen RX7 sounds more like where my budget is right now. I need to decide whether to sell the 944 or see if there is someone out there that might want to trade there RX7 or some other already built car for my 944.

My other choice is to stay with what I have and slowly build it over the next couple of years to stretch out the costs. During this time I can continue to autox and add some track days for the experience.

The most convient track to me is Roebling Road, I&#39;m 3.5 hours away but my inlaws live within a few minutes of the track.

If anyone knows someone that might consider a trade let me know.

Thanks!
Vince

[RLEKUN17]

Two add two more cents....
Two other questions to consider as you make your decision:

1) How much time do you (and your family) like to spend working on your car?
The advantage of racing rotaries is the engine needs little daily care at the IT level.
2) How important is it for you to be a front runner or win races?
You have to have a realistic expectation of what you&#39;re trying to accomplish. Sure everyone wants to be front runner...but IT races are full of guys who know they aren&#39;t going to see the "podium" but they race week after week. Its still a lot of fun racing against guys mid-pack. Others go out every time expecting to compete for 1st place. Neither type of weekend warrior is wrong. Both have fun. Just make sure you know which group your in.

[JeffYoung]

I don&#39;t run IT7, but I do run in the IT7 run group in the SEDiv. It&#39;s a good bunch of guys, with a couple of extremely well-prepped, well-driven cars. They seem to have a lot of fun. As an entry level car, an IT7 car is a great way to go. Can they compete with the Integras and the CRXs in A? Only the very best of the best. But amongst themselves, they put on a great show.

Hope to see you out there.

[Vince]

Originally posted by RLEKUN17@Dec 27 2005, 04:25 AM
Two add two more cents....
Two other questions to consider as you make your decision:

1) How much time do you (and your family) like to spend working on your car?
The advantage of racing rotaries is the engine needs little daily care at the IT level.
2) How important is it for you to be a front runner or win races?
You have to have a realistic expectation of what you&#39;re trying to accomplish. Sure everyone wants to be front runner...but IT races are full of guys who know they aren&#39;t going to see the "podium" but they race week after week. Its still a lot of fun racing against guys mid-pack. Others go out every time expecting to compete for 1st place. Neither type of weekend warrior is wrong. Both have fun. Just make sure you know which group your in.

69256



Never have raced the 1st gen RX7 sounds like where I am looking to start or at least a car wih similar capabilities. Because of time constraints I don&#39;t need a car that will need alot of prep all the time and since I have no track time I want to start with a car that I feel comfortable and confident with out there.

If anyone hears of someone with a 1st gen car let me know or if they have an extra car and would consider trading for a 944.
Email me at [email protected] or call me at 1-229-344-2313.

Thanks!
Vince

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Vince@Dec 27 2005, 07:34 AM
Because of time constraints I don&#39;t need a car that will need alot of prep all the time and since I have no track time I want to start with a car that I feel comfortable and confident with out there.


69272


Then the ultimate process may be to buy a Spec Miata. You could do this:

- Buy an SM
- They are very reliable and inexpensive to run
- Use it to get track time and get comfortable
- You can run it in either SM or ITA
- If you love it, keep it
- If you want to upgrade it, prep it for full-blown ITA
- If you hate racing, yo uwon&#39;t lose much, if any money on the sale if you buy right.

I think there will be more than a few Miata&#39;s coming to IT over the next 12 months.

AB

[bldn10]

"Then the ultimate process may be to buy a Spec Miata."

Andy, that&#39;s treason - keep that advice to yourself! :)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by bldn10@Dec 27 2005, 10:50 AM
"Then the ultimate process may be to buy a Spec Miata."

Andy, that&#39;s treason - keep that advice to yourself! :)

69292


I know...but the plan would be to build it into an IT car once you decided you didn&#39;t like trading paint every race!!! :P

AB

[Chris Wire]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 27 2005, 12:25 PM
I know...but the plan would be to build it into an IT car once you decided you didn&#39;t like trading paint every race!!! :P

AB

69300


Not to hijack, but I feel strangely compelled to offer a limited defense for the SM guys/gals (some, anyway.).

I raced 3 time in SM in the past year, 2 sprints and 1/2 an ECR. The only paint I traded was my own fault. I think that the closer you get to the front, the better and cleaner the racing gets. I do see some bonehead moves further back in the pack, but hey, it&#39;s not anything that hasn&#39;t be seen every year on SPEED watching the Ruboffs. So while I remain an IT guy, (just can&#39;t quite pull the trigger for SM, as much fun as they are to drive) I will give the front-running SM guys/gals their due.

Heck, I saw just as many (if not more) boneheads in GT when I used to run my AS Mustang!

[Marcus Miller]

In SFR, the front runners rarely trade a lot of paint. Just enough to the keep them from being show cars :P The mid-pack guys destroy cars.

Vince, 1st gen Rx-7 is a good choice, but to be honest, to be at the sharp end of the grid, any race car will be a bunch of work, and can consume every minute and cent you have.

My thread on doing track days and startign to race my pro7 car (similar in cost to an ITA car) is here: http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=368675
I have yet to add up the costs in 2005. As always, your mileage may vary.

The first gen 7 problems (excluding competitiveness and classing) center on two main spots.
The rear suspension is a non parallel 4 link with a watts link that due to confiting roll cneters placed on in at racing ride heights will bind and snap oversteer, and the front brakes.

The rear suspension is realtively easy to fix. Call up your favorite vendor (Jim Susko @ G-force, Mike Van Steenburg @ ISC or Charlie Clark at KCraceware and order yourself a 3rd link and Panhard rod. match with their choice of shock and Spring and be done. Buy a built car and take your chances. All three have their own idea about what it takes to go quickly. (Full disclaimer, my ITA car has 98% of ISC&#39;s kit on it, Charlie Clark built my car originally, and Susko&#39;s setup manual is under my GF&#39;s magazines on my woefully neglected cofee table; reading it is my offseason project.)

Front brakes:
If you use the std Hawk blues, you will crack rotors. Spend the $$$ and get real brembo&#39;s, cryo them (if legal - read your GCR0 what? you thought I giving away all the answers? :P) and look at pad options. My new choice in pads we ran at the 25 hours of Thunderhill ran 12.5 hours on each set, are only 1/4 worn and the rotors still measure new.

More than anything, go have fun! :smilie_pokal:

Marcus

[RP Performance]

Where are you located? In the DC region we also have a Spec RX-7 which are even cheaper then the IT7 cars. The spec RX-7 does not allow as many modifications as an IT7 and can be bought complete for $3k to $5k.

[benspeed]

Hi Vince,

I ran a 944 for one season in 2001 and got my butt whipped. I realized that I needed a much better suspension and I was way down on power. I oredered a 944 suspension setup that was going to run about $7000 after installation (including the re-indexing of the torsion bars etc) and realized that I could sell my car and take that money and buy a front running 2nd gen RX7. Called the shop, cancelled the order and bought the rex. I was glad I did since I was then able to be competitive and have a bunch of 2nd gen guys to learn from.

A friend of mine recently built a no-expense spared 944S and concluded he built a very costly RX7. His 944S was super fast but not hugely better and for the $$ the Rex is a better deal.

[Mike Spencer]

OK, 2 comments regarding all of the above;

First, the 1st gen 7 is ultra-low maintenance. Unless you bend something (or it breaks and yes, you have to be gentle with the tranny), you&#39;re talking about bleeding brakes, changing fluids and that&#39;s about it. Here in Southeast the Toyo RA1 is a spec tire for 2006. In 2005 I ran a set of RA1s at a double school, a double SARRC/MARRS weekend, a SARRC and an ECR and there is still plenty of life left. Also, several of the REALLY FAST guys have opted to NOT run the spec tire (they use Hoosiers), and are now classed in ITA (which means I no longer need binoculars to see the podium. Just a good clear day! ;) )

Second, I have mixed feelings about Spec RX7. Of course, I LOVE the car :P but I really haven&#39;t seen many around here. (Your mileage may vary!) Rather than be negative about other cars, I would pitch the fact that at both the SARRC races I attended this past year there were at least a half dozen IT7 cars entered. Yeah, there&#39;s 1 or 2 that blow everybody else away. But the rest of us had a great time mixing it up. In October, I think 4 of us qualified within a second of each other at VIR.

Before I aggrevate too many people, I truly believe that whatever you decide to run (except the Porsche) you will have an absolute blast. Club racers are the best!

[JeffYoung]

Mike, all good points -- hope to see you at VIR in March.

One thing to add about SRX7. It is a huge class in the MARRS region (D.C. and Summit Point). On the other hand, I think there is one SRX7 in the NCR (John Uftring).

So, from my viewpoint, SRX7 is a great class in MARRS, not a fun one (John would disagree, and I understand) in the rest of the SEDiv. IT7 rules the SEDiv, while not as strong in MARRS.

Mike is right that IT7 in the SEDiv breaks down into 3-4 really well prepped, really well driven IT7 cars showing up each weekend, and 4-6 very nicely prepped and well driven cars following along in a second pack. The front group is very competitive, the second group is just as competitive and fun just a tick or two slower.

It&#39;s really a great group to run with in my view.

[Vince]

Originally posted by benspeed@Dec 28 2005, 05:56 PM
Hi Vince,

I ran a 944 for one season in 2001 and got my butt whipped. I realized that I needed a much better suspension and I was way down on power. I oredered a 944 suspension setup that was going to run about $7000 after installation (including the re-indexing of the torsion bars etc) and realized that I could sell my car and take that money and buy a front running 2nd gen RX7. Called the shop, cancelled the order and bought the rex. I was glad I did since I was then able to be competitive and have a bunch of 2nd gen guys to learn from.

A friend of mine recently built a no-expense spared 944S and concluded he built a very costly RX7. His 944S was super fast but not hugely better and for the $$ the Rex is a better deal.

69393


To keep costs down and to just get started do you think adding a cage and racing seat(s) would work or will an unmodified engine blow under running alot harder say than on the street?

If I were able to get $4500 for my 944 right now than I&#39;m $1,500 in the hole over the last 3 months. Then again if I found a good deal on an already race prepped RX7 for around $4,500 then I would not realize the $1,500 loss(mentally anyway :blink: ).(this is a lot of IF&#39;s). It seems in this sport that $1,500 is not considered much of a loss.

Everyone seems to make a good point and has good advice. Still I&#39;m not sure the way to go... :119:

[RLEKUN17]

[attachmentid=230]
Originally posted by Vince@Dec 30 2005, 09:25 PM
Then again if I found a good deal on an already race prepped RX7 for around $4,500 :119:

69622


Check the classifieds. I&#39;ll be waiting by the phone..... :D

[benspeed]

Sell the 944 - I was able to smile all the way to the bank after realizing how much I saved by NOT running the car longer or trying to make it competitive.

Unfortunately there seems to be a bunch of 2nd Gen RX7s for sale. Mine&#39;s up since I&#39;ve bought an SPO car.

[Vince]

Originally posted by benspeed@Dec 31 2005, 01:29 AM
Sell the 944 - I was able to smile all the way to the bank after realizing how much I saved by NOT running the car longer or trying to make it competitive.

Unfortunately there seems to be a bunch of 2nd Gen RX7s for sale. Mine&#39;s up since I&#39;ve bought an SPO car.

69636


I&#39;m hearing sell more than keep, hmm...seems to be a consensus B)

Well I&#39;m thinking it over, I like the 944, fun to drive, but more money than I expected in fixing things and it almost seems never ending, I&#39;ve almost become gun-shy from driving it worried what is going to break next?

[lateapex911]

Sell the 944....maybe to a track guy, or a teenageer...whatever! That black car looks the part.

you are right...$1500 is fast under the bridge...

[Newbie]

LUKE....THIS IS YOUR FATHER>>>>

Save yourself a ton of dough and go faster.

COME OVER TO THE DARK SIDE B)

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by Vince@Dec 31 2005, 03:25 AM
fun to drive, but more money than I expected in fixing things and it almost seems never ending, I&#39;ve almost become gun-shy from driving it worried what is going to break next?

69641


... Almost sounds like Jeff Young.... LOL

....Couldn&#39;t help myself friend... ROFL

.....Rick

[Vince]

Originally posted by Hotshoe@Dec 31 2005, 05:51 AM
... Almost sounds like Jeff Young.... LOL

....Couldn&#39;t help myself friend... ROFL

.....Rick

69652


:rolleyes: :lol:

[tdw6974]

Originally posted by Vince@Dec 30 2005, 10:25 PM
I&#39;m hearing sell more than keep, hmm...seems to be a consensus B)

Well I&#39;m thinking it over, I like the 944, fun to drive, but more money than I expected in fixing things and it almost seems never ending, I&#39;ve almost become gun-shy from driving it worried what is going to break next?

69641

Vince, We can fix you up with a 1980 RX-7 Ita car with all the Right Stuff. Built by robinson racing enterprises. All components replaced/upgraded Arrive and drive In fact buy it this week and We will pay your entry fee for next weekends Sebring race. Extensive spare package included! Email me for photos and details. Top Carb equipped carb last 3 Years In NYSRRC. series. Tom weaver :eclipsee_steering: