PDA

View Full Version : GTA Stock Cars Vs. IT



benspeed
12-22-2005, 03:15 PM
OK - so I've had a bunch of ITS friends wonder why the heck am I moving to GTA racing (which is not yet a NE sanctioned class). After burning up a huge sackful of money on my Mazda and running OK I was getting ready to go the BMW route. The E36 still seems to be the dominant car and after having driven a couple I was getting ready to burn up some more sackfuls of money. I had already looked at T1 and T2 which were even more expensive than ITS with less adjustability and more computer woes that I didn't want to deal with. I wanted to run nationals but I'm not towing to Kansas to visit Dorothy so I figured regional is good for the next 3 years and the ARRC is a darn good event to try and win (haven't been yet but I will someday).

Then I caught wind of some very cool and purpose built cars coming out of the ASA national touring series. Full blown stock cars for dirt cheap since the series went belly up and they are dead ringers for Nextel Cup cars only less HP, very light and very bullet proof.

I'll run the car in SPO for now - but I'm making a shameless plug to see if I can attract some folks to this new class.

Here's a great article on why this kind of racing is very, very attractive:

Why GTA?
by Butch Kummer - BK Racing

I’ve been road racing since 1984, always in a V-8 powered car. I started out with a converted street Corvette (what used to be known as B Production), progressed through a series of tube-framed GT-1 cars (all Corvettes) and now have a GTA car with Monte Carlo bodywork. Once you give up the hope of winning a National championship, GTA makes the most financial sense of all the V-8 classes available.
I prepared the following chart comparing the various V-8 cars eligible for SCCA road racing a couple of years ago, but it still appears to be valid. What’s NOT on the chart is a relative comparison of the operating costs of each class. While I don’t have hard numbers on all the classes, I can compare GT-1 and GTA since I have personal experience with both.
If you’re going to have a reasonable chance of running near the front of even a Regional GT-1 field, you better have at least 650 horsepower on tap. Keeping that many ponies happy (and all the moving parts residing within the block) is not only expensive to start with, you need to rebuild the engine every 5-10 hours depending on how tight you want to turn it. You also probably don’t want to do your own engine work with that much at stake, so each rebuild is in the $3500-$7000 range depending on what parts need to be replaced. Add in the stress that much power puts on the other drivetrain components (clutch, transmission and rear end) and the constant rebuilds necessary on them, and it easily costs $5000 a weekend to race a front-running GT-1 car even at a Regional level (multiply by two for a National effort). And that doesn’t count crash damage!
The GTA car, on the other hand, is limited to 7000 RPM and about 500 horsepower by a fairly rigid set of rules designed to limit costs. The traditional “carburetor” GTA engines use off-the-shelf engine parts designed for Saturday night circle track racing, which also keeps the price down. The relatively low RPM limit lets the engines last fifty (50) hours between rebuilds and each rebuild is in the $1500-$2000 range even using a professional builder (the ASA fuel-injected engines last even longer and run on 93-octane pump gas). And since we’re using components designed for 750 hp, the clutches, trannies and rear ends last a lot longer as well. We run on spec tires for $500 a set, so you’re looking at maybe $1500 a weekend to run at the front of GTA. And on those occasions you DO have an encounter with a hard object (not that such a thing would EVER happen to you <g>), the body panels for a GTA car are about 25% of equivalent GT-1 parts (again because of the circle track carryover).
The cars are more affordable and the racing is better between GTA cars than GT-1, but that doesn’t mean the GTA cars aren’t a handful. With 500 horsepower and 10” wide slicks, the cars make all the right noises and will still get sideways in a heartbeat if you’re not careful. A good Regional GT-1 car will run in the high 1:29’s at Road Atlanta while the top GTA cars run in the 1:33’s with a top end of over 160 mph. At Daytona we’ll run almost 180, so there’s absolutely NO lack of adrenaline rush when driving one of these cars.
I have no personal experience with American Sedan cars, but I DID consider getting one in the past. The reason I decided against them is because you’re required to use stock components rather than built-for-racing hardware, which means everything needs to be replaced more often. You can get into an AS for less than a GTA car, but I’m told you’ll have $30K in the car before it’s competitive and reliable even at a Regional level. And when you’re ready to sell, you still have a car that’s worth maybe $15K on the open market. Add in the cost of crash damage with a tub car and the fact that the GTA cars are faster than AS everywhere we run, then the ONLY reason to run AS is if you want to have a shot at winning the Runoffs.
Otherwise, GTA just makes cents…
V-8 Class Comparisons
GT-1
. priced from $25K to $150K, “decent” entry level is $50,000
Positives: Negatives:
- “glamour” class at all levels - high maintenance costs
- Runoffs eligible - easy to get outspent
- good participation at Nationals & SARRC

GTA
. priced from $20K to $55K, “decent” entry level is $25,000
Positives: Negatives:
- excellent bang for the buck - not Runoffs eligible
- good participation in SARRC - it’s a taxicab (not really a “sports car”)
- Pro series being discussed - limited sex appeal (no Corvettes)
- easy to maintain (short track technology)
- car retains value (spec car)

SPO
. priced from $20K to $400K, “decent” entry level is $40,000
Positives: Negatives:
- “glamour” class at Regionals - maintenance costs can be high
- wide variety of cars in class - possible to get outspent
- excellent participation in SARRC - not Runoffs eligible
- run at front for less than a GT-1 effort

AS (American Sedan)
. priced from $8K to $40K, “decent” entry level is $12,500
Positives: Negatives:
- decent participation at all levels - maintenance costs can be high
- Runoffs eligible - limited sex appeal (no Corvettes)
- relatively low entry level costs - uses 20-year old technology
- always runs with GT-1 in SEDIV

T-1
. priced from $35K to $80K, “decent” entry level is $40,000
Positives: Negatives:
- Runoffs eligible - poor participation in SARRC
- “glamour” cars (Corvettes & Vipers) - generally runs with GT-1 in SEDIV
- decent participation at Nationals - stock components with limited mods
- relatively low maintenance costs - high(er) crash damage repair costs
- subject to “next year’s trick car”

T-2
. priced from $10K to $50K, “decent” entry level is $15,000
Positives: Negatives:
- Runoffs eligible - poor participation in SEDIV
- relatively low maintenance costs - generally runs with GT-1 in SEDIV
- wider variety of cars - stock components with limited mods
(BMW, Porsche, Camaros, Toyotas) - high(er) crash damage repair costs
- subject to “next year’s trick car”



OK - so if any of you guys are interested check out this site:

www.v8stockcar.com

Without much trouble I located a full blown car for $12K and It&#39;ll cost me about $1000 to setup for road racing. Looking forward to watching some ITS races and helping my buds take temps and pressures - and now you can return the favor!

OK - now somebody who really wants to win in IT go look at my awesome ITS car in the classifieds and buy it. I make you special price. :023:

Despr8dave
12-22-2005, 09:36 PM
I&#39;ve been looking at this since I saw them run at the 2004 ARRC last year. I have raced nothing but 4 cylinders, some full race, some IT, until I had the opportunity to run a truck at Hallet a few years back (see it in the vehicle section). Basically a full tubed chassis latemodel with a truck body on it and a spec (crate) motor, at least 500 horses. I love racing, I loved my 510 ITC, my full race motored ministock could run mid pack with the late models on a third mile banked track (Orlando Speedworld), but they just simply did not have the torque, horsepower or speed that darn truck had. What a thrill. The spec Goodyears for the V-8 Stock Car Road Racing series are $100 unmounted. If I remember right, my shaved potatoe, er, Potenza&#39;s were $125. Yes, you could spend a fortune for tunable shocks and other stuff, but I can buy a used ready to go local late model from $3500 to $50,000, with very nice ones going from $10k to $15k, and set it up for road racing in just a few hours, as we did with the truck. I ran the second fastest lap of the weekend of all the closed fendered cars, as COMMA calls them, running on used Hooters Cup spec tires, not soft road racing tires. My buddy paid $6500 for the truck. He&#39;s having alot more fun than I am! I&#39;ve never had the money or talent to run up front (cubic dollars), but to rebuild and machine work a full race cammed 2300 Ford used to cost as much at the limited late model guys spent on their Chevy&#39;s. The biggest issue I&#39;m having in making my decision is not being able to race the enduros. I love those loooong races.

David

benspeed
12-23-2005, 08:30 PM
I love the long races too - If you&#39;re fit and well hydrated you can really see guys who are not physically prepped begin to fade after 2 hours. that&#39;s when I check up a touch cause the wrecks start at the 2 hour mark in my experience. Guys get tired and lose focus.

I&#39;ve thought about putting a 33 gallon cell in my car - that would do me great but the weight would be a handful. I&#39;ll wait since I have a big adjustment from ITS to GTA/SPO.

Dano77
12-27-2005, 01:59 PM
Ive been saying this very thing since running a miata in ita,too much money. Come check out my spo/gta/act late model some time. Sold miat for 8500 sold parts for 1000,(Thanks Andy).. Bought rolling chassis & 30 foot enclosed trailer for 9000, sold 20 ft trailer to father in law(thanks serge) scavenged a used suburban motor from the pile,called summit & purchased400hp in a box. put every thing together & was on track for about 8 grand. the car wasent up frt but made every session & is an absolute blast to drive.
first thing to check is spindle height on the frt. Left will probably be taller
next check lower control arms,rt side will be longer
try to purchase a perimeter chassis,not an offset chassis,harder to find than you think, motor mounts will be offset as well.
if the car ran up frt,get a copy of the rules & check for subtle changes(read cheatin)
Any questions on conversion,feel free to call. Ive probably already run into it.
dan sheppard,603.674.5405/603.668.4129

Despr8dave
12-27-2005, 11:56 PM
Good advice on all points Dan, also make sure the wheel base is legal for the class you are running. I&#39;m not sure, but I seem to recall I read somewhere that the GTA rules are for 110" only. If you get a car with extra parts etc....the wheels usually have different offsets for right and left sides. Glad to see others getting into this! Hanging bodies is a great deal of work also, so try to find one acceptable like Five Star.

David

benspeed
12-28-2005, 02:28 PM
Hey Dan - I might give you a call for some advice when my car gets delivered and I start sizing it up for Road Racing. It&#39;s a straight rail car so the spindles, control arms and putting some camber in the rear seams to be the main things needed.

Looking forward to running the big iron this year. Got any pics of your car?

Dano77
12-28-2005, 09:30 PM
The car was running at the cheap date,99 SPO. There are pics at the16v.com. First time out so no flashy paint yet,but itll be very obvious who owns it in april...
Who made your chassis,lefthander,laughlin,howe? Those guys all have catalogs and some times parts are specific to those chassis. Example is my car,its a lefthander so howe headers dont fit,they hit the chassis cross braces where they cross over the trans,Did your car come with a 4 speed or a 4 with 1-2 removed?
another stupid thing is lower ball joint angle. with 4 degree positive on the left some times they alter the angle to keep the monoball centered at ride height.
another pro is wheels. try buying a Panasport for 41.00 including shipping. Buy from wheel manufacturers overstock or discontinued wheels. I bought 8 wide 5 15x8 wheels for $320.
good luck & see you at the track
Dan

Andy Bettencourt
12-29-2005, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by Dano77@Dec 28 2005, 07:30 PM
First time out so no flashy paint yet,but itll be very obvious who owns it in april...

69423


Plllllease that means FLAMES!!!!

:)

AB

Dano77
12-29-2005, 11:24 AM
Nope.. already did that keep guessing.
Dan

benspeed
12-29-2005, 12:08 PM
Hey Dano,

My car is a lefthander with custom front and rear clips. The team that built the car is Country Joe Racing - they won the ASA national championship 3 times. Joey Miller is their driver - he goes to Michael Waltrips truck team this year.

I&#39;ll get 2 sets of wheels and tires. Not sure if I&#39;ll run this car in the rain but if I do I&#39;ll get some of the panos you mentioned. The cost of parts is just fantastic for these cars. Tons of selection too.

I&#39;ve ordered the Coleman catelog. Spoke to Lefthander and asked if they had a road racing setup. A kid at their shop said they didn&#39;t which suprised me.

The front end seems pretty straightforward but I don&#39;t know about the rear. I heard that some guys don&#39;t run any camber - others do. What&#39;s the setup that you go with? (If you don&#39;t mind my asking).

Is your car a former Busch/Cup car? What kind of power are you putting down? My motor is doing about 430 hp at 2800 lbs.

Looking forward to seeing you at the track (I&#39;m now going to go check your times!)

Cheers :023:

Dano77
12-29-2005, 03:05 PM
I just checked their website,Did you buy the 15 car or the 9 arca car? My chassis is a Lefthander{2003} 04 Monte Carlo. The times dont really show to much success. about 10 secs of Woodruff in the truck. Once we do some tuning & stop the oil leaks,add 10 inch rubber and open up the grill so it will cool down at speed it should be better.
dont try & dive this like an RX7 or Miata. Just get it stoped,point & shoot. not a lot of momentum driving going on at this point.
Rear camber tubes are available for a quickchange,dont have them yet. Is your car a roller or complete,what rear end is init?
good luck getting it going & call if you need to
dan-o

Dave Patten
12-29-2005, 05:43 PM
Dan,
Don&#39;t forget to tell him about how important a good left side mirror is.

benspeed
12-29-2005, 06:35 PM
I bought the #15 car. I had some guys who do circle track sit in on a conference call and review all the detailed pics - they gave the car a two thumbs up. Just waiting for the hauler to drop off my new Christmas present.

So - you wouldn&#39;t recommend those 4 wheel RX7 drifts in this car??? Trailing throttle oversteer? :blink:

Actually, one reason I was pretty interested in the ASA cars is the weight - only 120 lbs more than my RX7, but about 250 hp more power. And juicy fat rubber.

I plan on shaking the car out with a circle track/RR team and then be ready for NHIS in April. It will be a whole new way of driving. I had a friend move from ITB to Spec Racer and he still can&#39;t figure out the new chassis.

So what&#39;s the lowdown on the fast SPO guys? Looks like Woodruff&#39;s truck is the ride to beat. Is he running the SB2 heads and lightweight body? :unsure:

:D :D :D

Despr8dave
12-30-2005, 01:57 AM
Just get it stoped,point & shoot. not a lot of momentum driving going on at this point.

Ditto again Dan. After "sliding" off a few turns at Hallet I soon learned this was no drifting 510. Stop, point and shoot couldn&#39;t be more correct in racing those things. Oh, and HANG on comes to mind also!

David

Dano77
12-30-2005, 10:57 PM
The truck is the one to beat for now. 13 inch modified rubber,6 inches added to the center of the body,4 inches sectioned out of the roof and a modified 360 aluminume engine. Shouldnt be to tough to catch, ha .
Lets talk about the blind spot that starts at the right a pillar and goes all the way around to the left a pillar. Get a lot of mirrors so you dont run your buddy over the curbs at 7 (sorry again dave)
The car will definatly drift,gobs of throttle steer up the hill. If the car has a locked diff,it will push bad on entry so hit it hard & fast to get it to rotate. I have seen you drive & you will pick up on it quick.
So who else is interested in these cars or are we the test mules?
Dano

benspeed
01-02-2006, 04:10 PM
I think we&#39;re it! Andy B just sent me a note that the Woodruff truck is for sale on the NER site. $25K. Just the motor alone is probably $12K or more.

Hopefully we see some other stock cars. And some fast Porsches. It&#39;ll be fun to beat cars that cost roughly 5 times more!

Still no takers on my RX7 - just might have to run 2 cars this year. :D