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Butch Kummer
12-22-2005, 10:45 AM
I hesitate to even post this, but perhaps it will succeed in moving MattBerg's tirades from the General Discussion to the SEDIV area where they belong.

The reason no one answers you Matt, is because you DON'T LISTEN! You seize on one mistatement or misquote and shout from the rooftops that the black helicopters are swarming and life (or at least racing) as we know it today will cease to exist. You overreact, but that's part of the process.

Truth:

In the past month, all the RE's and anyone they want to bring (like Competition Directors, of which I am one) have been invited to a private, non-business gathering at Jekyll separate from the SEDIV events at the Holiday Inn. The purpose of this gathering is to discuss issues that we each face in a social atmosphere that should be more conducive to actually listening to and getting to know each other. No proposals will be offered, no motions will be made, no votes will be taken, no SEDIV business will be conducted and no SEDIV monies are being spent on this.

For the record, neither Barry Hair nor anyone from the Alabama region is organizing this gathering.

Opinion (mine, of course):

I wouldn't have done it this way, but it's not my meeting and I don't know all the reasons behind choosing this format. Perhaps the organizers felt an informal gathering would allow the RE's to let their guard down a bit and REALLY discuss what's on their minds rather that posturing for their members (sorta like the private summit conferences where the real work is done behind the scenes vs. the public ones where people beat on the table with their shoe).

I'm a bit uncomfortable attending because of it's "secret" nature and thought about skipping it, but that does a disservice to my region. I will attend, I will express my opinions about the challenges faced by both Atlanta Region and SEDIV, I will listen to the same from other regions and I will certainly form an opinion about ways that we may meet some of those challenges.

As much as I hate to agree with Matt, I think part of the problems we face in SEDIV is that we have too many regions in Area 12. I don't know the history of why they exist, so perhaps from this gathering I can gain a better understanding of that.

Personally I think we should drop all mileage and "consecutive weekend" restrictions and let the marketplace decide who survives and who doesn't - the problem WILL fix itself eventually. The GCR and SARRC rules do not allow this, however, and making such change is a bigger challenge than I'm willing to take on right now. Working to build GTA as a SARRC class and taking on the Competition Director position in Atlanta Region fills my plate.

As the driver of a big car, Roebling Road is my third least-favorite track that I've raced upon (Barber is the worst and Mid-Ohio close behind). A couple of years ago I floated the idea of rotating the SIC among multiple tracks and it was voted down by a majority of the SARRC drivers. Apparently the central location and/or track familiarity is more important to most of our participants. I will race at Roeling in 2006, but only because I need to in order to have a chance of winning the SARRC championship.

Finally, I will trot out what Matt calls the "volunteer chip". Like it or not, the SCCA IS a volunteer organization. Perhaps there are in fact power-hungry overlords whose only reason for holding a position is to satisfy their massive egos, but in my experience most of the elected and appointed officials are concerned about doing what's right for SCCA first. If you have a problem with one or more of these people, regular elections are held for all positions within SCCA. Run for an office, get your like-minded friends to vote for you and change things. SEDIV and/or SCCA may very well crumble under it's own weight tomorrow, but until then we STILL have the best amateur Solo & racing programs out there.

Let the banging and clanging begin, I'm done...

Butch Kummer

wbp
12-22-2005, 11:31 AM
Butch, I agreee that the volunteers that support our Divisional competition series in the SEDIV have established and support the strongest Divisional series in the country.
Rants like that going on in the General Discussion area hurt the efforts of us volunteers. Who would wish to work 17 weekends per year (as I did in 2005) to support a club as bad as those ranting describe?
The RE that is being attacked there was recently reelected as RE by the members of his region. I know he spends a few hundred hours a year supporting road racing (works corners, race chair, etc.) It hurts our all-volunteer club racing efforts to see any volunteer be subjected to the attempted intimidation, even physical threats expressed in that tirade.
I hope your efforts to clear things up here will help.

its66
12-22-2005, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Butch Kummer@Dec 22 2005, 02:45 PM

Personally I think we should drop all mileage and "consecutive weekend" restrictions and let the marketplace decide who survives and who doesn't - the problem WILL fix itself eventually. The GCR and SARRC rules do not allow this, however, and making such change is a bigger challenge than I'm willing to take on right now.

Butch Kummer

68955


Butch, that is the smartest idea I have heard on this subject to date. Hopefully several other will read this and feel the same way.

thanks

Mattberg
12-22-2005, 01:16 PM
Butch,

I don't disagree with anything you've siad but the problem is that Barry and some of his friends are out of control. Even members of his own region are saying so and one has even left the region as the result of Barry's outlandish claims and comments. He has been identified as stating that he intends to get Fred Schmucker, Toni Creighton and Jim Creighton removed from the SEDIV. That's just a crazy man talking. And now you want us to trust that this guy is not up to something? He's lied on more than one occasion and the last one I caught him in silenced him entirely. Thank God for that because it seems every time he opens his mouth he's either twisting the truth or just flat out lying. I just have a hard time ignoring all of this and accepting that everything's hunky dory.

Couple of simple questions for you as an aside. Who is paying for the Jeckyll Island Club? Someone has to be organizing it? They've got rooms reserved and a meeting room arranged. Why when we have a full compliment of facilities at the Holiday Inn paid for and unused is this meeting taking place three hous before registration on the other side of town, BTW, in a very expensive alternate location? (They quoted me a price of $219 a night versus the $49 rate at the Holiday Inn). I believe that's where Barry is staying. I'll be at the Holiday Inn because I don't have Alabama region kinda' money. Speaking of which, I made my hotel reservation through Jim Creighton who is organizing this convention. Why does he know of no meeting at the Jeckyll Island Club? Some things just aren't adding up other than the wasteful spending.

Fastfred92
12-22-2005, 01:26 PM
Butch

A little off topic here but I sure would be in favor of rotating the SIC, maybe we could address that again in 06?

Mattberg
12-22-2005, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Fastfred92@Dec 22 2005, 05:26 PM
Butch

A little off topic here but I sure would be in favor of rotating the SIC, maybe we could address that again in 06?

68985


Now there's a topic worth having a meeting on. :023: :happy204:

GO FLORIDA and NORTH CAROLINA! :023: :happy204:

...and ALABAMA drivers, you're welcome to join us anytime! :023: :happy204:

Catch22
12-22-2005, 07:08 PM
I'm having a party in my pants, and NONE of you guys are invited.

Chris Wire
12-22-2005, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Catch22@Dec 22 2005, 06:08 PM
I'm having a party in my pants, and NONE of you guys are invited.

69031


So that means you don't want anyone to "give you a hand"? :D :D :D

Mattberg
12-22-2005, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by Catch22@Dec 22 2005, 11:08 PM
I'm having a party in my pants, and NONE of you guys are invited.

69031


Is Barry there? :D

Catch22
12-23-2005, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Mattberg@Dec 22 2005, 08:08 PM
Is Barry there? :D

69038


You're kind of hung up on the Barry thing.
Is there anything you want to tell us?
Are you jealous that Barry might be invited to my pants party?

Anyway, Barry is cute and all, but I only invite the Laydeees to my pants parties.

DavidM
12-23-2005, 03:57 PM
Rotating the SIC sounds like an interesting idea. I think I'd sign up for that. Roebling is fun, but man it's a tire shredder. Wonder why people voted down the idea. I could see the Florida people not liking it since they'd probably have a longer haul to just about any other track not in Florida.

David

charrbq
12-24-2005, 02:43 AM
Rotating the SIC has its advantages, but some disadvantages, too. The reason the Runoffs is in one location for years at a time is for continuity. If you know the circus is coming to town each year at the same time, then motels, grocery stores, parts stores, community facilities can prepare. Personally, I like the idea that I can find a good motel and retain it each time I'm at a track. Gives me more time to do the race thing.
However, a new track each year gives more regions and tracks a chance at a piece of the pie. Maybe it would be an idea to have the SIC rotate every five years or so. I'm sure this has been addressed in the past, but maybe not.

Russ Myers
12-24-2005, 11:05 PM
Having been around SEDiv for a long time, the reason that the SIC is at Savanah is because it was thought that by holding it in a very central location, drivers from all over SEDiv would be able to compete at the race. Y'all have perhaps noticed that some drivers race in Fla. and some stay in Carolina, and only at the SIC do the twain meet. Howl for rotation all y'all want, but for the forseeable future it will probably remain at Roebling(a track I just loathe).

Russ

Mattberg
01-15-2006, 08:25 PM
Just for you naysayers out there who believed everything Barry Hair was selling, guess what? It came out at the Homestead National that the Friday meeting DOES have an agenda and is NOT just a cocktail party. Barry's going around trying to get all the little non-racing regions to use their vote. You're a sneaky guy Barry. Keep it up but one of those RE's of one of those little regions doesn't like what you're doing either and got the info to me at Homestead. How can you be such a sneaky corrupt self serving egotist in a club? Remember, it's a club? Sheeesh. Anyway you're little secret is out. I'll see you Friday. Rumor is you don't even want the new director there, KP Jones. You will be fought and your lies exposed. When we do I am pushing part of our club's bylaws about ethics and behavior and make sure you are ousted for good by National. You are a sad little man.

Greg Amy
01-15-2006, 09:21 PM
DAMMIT!! Somebody has a better garage than me!!!! DAMMIT!!!!!! DAMMIT!!!

charrbq
01-15-2006, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by GregAmy@Jan 16 2006, 01:21 AM
DAMMIT!! Somebody has a better garage than me!!!! DAMMIT!!!!!! DAMMIT!!!

70977

Apparently, someone thinks that all the good garages are in Florida, and that's where they want to keep them. They want no one else to have a garage for fear that all the cool people will leave them and go to the new garage. Sad, very sad.

Soon they may find that no one wants to be in their garage, because they ran them all away. Maybe they'll get what they want...their own garage where they can be the boss of anyone they want...if anyone wants them to be their boss. Then they can look out the door of their garage and curse the world and the people around them that want their own garage. And they will feel like they have the best garage in the world, when really, it's just another garage.

Mattberg
01-16-2006, 12:04 AM
What a bunch of jackasses. One guy in Alabama wants to be king of a small pond and you guys support him with sarcasm. Wait till you have nowhere to race or crappy races with six cars. Bunch of retards. Take your garage and shove it. All we asked for is that assholes like Barry don't try and take ours away. I've had enough of you losers who want to protect officials at the cost of racers. You're obviously not real racers or you would be as outraged as a lot of us are. Keep typing. I'm coming off of three races in five weeks and my hands are tired from something more than typing.

Go Florida! :happy204: :023:

lateapex911
01-16-2006, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by Mattberg@Jan 15 2006, 11:04 PM
........ and my hands are tired from something more than typing.

Fu*k Alabama! Go Florida! :happy204: :023:

70991


What more needs to be said???

dickita15
01-16-2006, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by Mattberg@Jan 15 2006, 08:25 PM
When we do I am pushing part of our club's bylaws about ethics and behavior and make sure you are ousted for good by National.

70971


I am not sure if this coming from matt is funny or just sad.

Kind of like Ted Kennedy lecturing people on personal behavior.

Russ Myers
01-16-2006, 09:25 AM
Are the Fla. RE's not invited? Are they not going to be at this oh so SECRET meeting. Will thet not be there to put forth their views. Matt, do you have no representation coming from the sunshine state? We have heard from various officials with various points of view, and no one from the tourist lands have been heard from, or if we have, they kept their identity a mystery,(if they haven't, my mistake). If Fla(Matt) wants to take their(his) ball and go home, let them, I looked at the SEDiv schedule,and there are already many overlapping weekends. We already HAVE two divs in SEDiv. I would much rather go to VIR (where camping is allowed) than to Daytona(where they run you out at 6:00 pm).

Russ

Mattberg
01-16-2006, 09:29 AM
Maybe that's inappropriate as you see it Jake, but Alabama's RE and his friends have been doing exactly that to us for a couple of months now. He says there was no discussion of this plan and when we prove there was he says it was only a discussion of an "idea". He says there was no plan written and when we prove there was a written plan he says it was nothing. When we prove it was selectively distributed he redistributes it seven months after the fact and claims it was distributed. When we prove there is a secret meeting planned they get someone else to come here and call it a private "cocktail party". Then we find out yesterday afternoon that they have a SEDIV agenda in which this plan is included? In addition I find out that Barry is out lobbying the non-racing regions to back it? What am I supposed to think? He's assembling votes of these little non-racing regions because they have as much power in their single vote as any racing region. One region has two people!!!! This is a total manipulation of a broken system. It's not about Florida being greedy it's about Alabama being greedy. We just want to race and Barry doesn't want us to so he can make money and be a big man.

Dick, if you want to question my ethics you better back it up with something. :023: I have not lied or misrepresented anything for personal gain like those I've exposed here. As far as behavior, I never thought the first amendment mentioned such. I'll have to go back and check.

Greg Amy
01-16-2006, 09:32 AM
Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are!

Hey, Killer, don't expect the world to come to you. If this really means something to you, do something about it: MOVE! And before you get off on another rant, BEEN THERE, DONE THAT!! Back in the late 80's I lived in North Texas and raced Nationals in SowDiv. My CLOSEST SowDiv track was Texas World Speedway, a 6-hour drive (yeah, driving to the race track, Killer: I couldn't afford a truck and trailer. Called "do whatcha gotta do".) Maybe we'd get to race in Abilene once a year, maybe we'd get to Ardmore OK or Big Spring TX (all airport circuits, woo-hoo.) For 1991 I changed my membership to MidDiv, but I was still faced with long drives to Memphis, Gateway (?), Hallet, Topeka, and other places that just weren't too close to home.

So you know what I did in 1992 to fix that? I MOVED TO CONNECTICUT. That's right: my primary reason for moving from Texas to Connecticut in 1992 was for racing, to be near Lime Rock Park and other tracks (NHIS, Summit Point, Watkins Glen) and to be near my major sponsor. I made the effort to find a job here, I got a sponsor here, and me and a buddy worked together to get a new Showroom Stock program for 1992. Worked out pretty good, I think: still employed, married, nice house, high heating bills, socialistic political climate. Life's good.

It's called effort, Killer. Motivation. Desire. Got some, or you just wanna reason to bitch?

Shut up and move.

dickita15
01-16-2006, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Mattberg@Jan 16 2006, 09:29 AM
Dick, if you want to question my ethics you better back it up with something. :023: I have not lied or misrepresented anything for personal gain like those I've exposed here. As far as behavior, I never thought the first amendment mentioned such. I'll have to go back and check.

71006


Matt you said
"When we do I am pushing part of our club's bylaws about ethics and behavior and make sure you are ousted for good by National."

it is my opinion that your behavior in this and other rants is in violation of those bylaws.

Mattberg
01-16-2006, 10:32 AM
Greg,

I think you are misunderstanding the situation. We have no problem here Florida. We have all the tracks and races a rcer could wish for. Alabama wants to take them away so they can be competitive! I should move so a region with 25 racers can throw events with no competition? We just want to be left alone and they WANT US to travel. Exactly the reason you moved to CT. Where would I move to to "make the effort"? Birmingham? Atlanta? Just so I could go six hours or eight hours for four races instead of being within 3 for 12? Where would you suggest I move to if they move races AWAY from me?

Dick,

Find the rule in the bylaws that says free specch equates to behavior detrimental to the club. You may not like what I say but I haven't lied and I haven't misrepresented anything as an elected official. I'm also not an elected official lobbying votes based on personal gain and in the pursuit of admitted financial gain. I am not an elected official conducting division meetings with official agendas and then selectively inviting people and closing it out to anyone else. I am not an elected official who distributed a plan discussed by the Board and then denied it only to be shown up as a blatant liar when the documented copy showed up. I am not an elected official who redistributed the plan seven months after the fact to make it look as though it was an open issue to cover my ass because I got "found out". I am not an elected official who comes to this web site and lies to everyone and then disappears and does everything on the sly once the plot is exposed. Sorry Dick, you don't know the definition of ethics.

Mattberg
01-16-2006, 10:40 AM
Just so the rest of SEDIV knows. Barry Hair is going to destroy SARRC and the SEDIV if he is allowed to continue this crusade. Florida and North Carolina will survive and thrive without the rest of SEDIV if it comes to it. The fact that this proposal has gone so far is testament to the plitical system failure we created. The fact that a region with two drivers has as much influence as a region with over 1000 is a joke. It's socialism pure and simple.

Who gets hurt in all of this? Atlanta. Be prepared Atlanta because a split will diminish your 18% a lot further because Florida racers that come to Atlanta now will be far less likely to do so. Buccaneer? Start looking for a mortgage company to get a second or third on that strip of sandpaper up there in Savanah because if we split you'll see more races go up on the Florida schedule and they'll be at places like Sebring, Daytona, Moroso and Homestead. Compete with that. If you support Barry Hair and Alabama you are supporting destruction of everything "racing" within 300 miles of Atlanta so that ONE man and his 25 racers and 23 workers can make money of of other regions' resources.

JeffYoung
01-16-2006, 12:13 PM
Repost from a thread on General Discussions (that got locked because of some bad boy behavior). I think this answers most of the "questions" Matt raises, although I am sure it will fail to satisfy the black helicopter crowd.

One additional comment. Every non-SCCA person I bring to a race says the same thing -- who puts this on and what do they get paid? When I tell them that people stand in the sun, rain, cold, and wind for 10 hours so we can race FOR FREE, the reaction is always the same: are you kidding me? I know we all say "Thanks Workers" etc. but I do think we fail to realize the sheer magnitude of what does on here. An entirely volunteer organization, with hundreds of volunteers per division, spend most of their free time doing nothing other than making sure we, the drivers, get to race.

That's what makes the crap above so hard to stomach.

Any event, on to the explanation for all of this:

**********

I have kept silent through all this long tirade. But I was rather annoyed by Matt's accusations and bad-mouthing of Barry Hair, so it is time for me to correct some of Matt's statements.

First though, I want to say that in all the times I have met Barry Hair, he has never done anything than try to put forward the best interests of Alabama region. He has never voted on any motion without getting feedback from his members. Barry also has constructively improved the process whereby everything that goes on in S E Div is actually made more public, by having items for the Annual Meeting agenda be provided in advance of Jekyll and getting minutes published sooner. Take note of that for later. I honestly believe that Alabama members are fortunate to have Barry H. as their R.E. and his silence in the face of Matt's tirade speeks volumes for his integrity.

To save you reading to the bottom of this to find out who it is from, I am the R.E for Central Carolinas Region.

At the 2005 mid-year meeting in Atlanta, all the R.E.'s and other officials in attendance were talking about the problems that regions have, such as getting and keeping workers, not over-stressing officials and workers with too many events, the increasing costs of putting on races, the challenge of NASA and how difficult it is for a non-racing region to get a good date on the racing calendar. Also that the R.E.'s rarely have the time at our two meetings of the year (Atlanta and Jekyll) to really discuss things and to talk about the future of racing

I made the comment that we should sit down with a bottle of good malt whisky and chat about things. All the R.E.'s thought that was a good idea, though there was some request for wine or vodka as an alternative. Based on that, I said I would arrange such a get-together for the Friday before Jekyll. We decided that just the R.E.'s would get together, because we were not going to make any specific action items. The intent was/is that we discuss a variety of issue in a relaxed manner. Hopefully we will come up with some great suggestions and ideas. If we do, those will become proposals for a following S.E. Division meeting and they WILL BE publicly aired beforehand and everyone can comment on them.

It was about at this point that Toni Creighton stood up (Toni was sitting behind me) and got on her cellphone to Jim Creighton and said (not quite verbatim) "Guess what. The R.E.'s have just decided to have a secret meeting to decide on the future of SARRC". I am not sure why Toni took this viewpoint, because none of the R.E.'s had it.

The so-called proposal that Matt and Toni have referred to was in fact just a discussion document of one possible idea. A very important fact is that it is NOT on the agenda for R.E.'s to vote on at Jekyll. If it did "appear" on the agenda, and thanks to Barry, that fact would now be made public well before the meeting, I for one R.E. would state that the vote needs to be delayed to allow for public discussion.

If you all think it is a bad idea for your elected R.E's to chat about all the various issues, challenges and opportunities facing S.E. Division then you should elect alternatives.

If you think that a constructive blue-sky brainstorming meeting can occur amongst 150 people on Saturday at Jekyll, then go for it.


Matt said "So who wants to hear what Barry did? Friggin scumbag set up the "secret meeting" at a different hotel".

This is not true.

I set up the meeting. I set it up at a different hotel because I was having problems (many places in Jekyll are closed in Jan) reserving a room where we could chat informally and relaxed. The intent was to avoid unnecessary interruptions and actually try to enjoy the discussions.

Matt also said "So here's what the scumbags did...
They didn't want any of us drivers to know what they were doing so they moved their meeting to a different hotel across town. You didn't think I'd figure it out Barry? You are one stupid hick. I made three phone calls and found you out"

Well Matt, careful who you are calling stupid (and scumbags).

Matt also made the statement about it being on the "Alabama nickel". That is also wrong (Noticing a pattern here).

It is on my "nickel". Actually my American Express card. It is NOT on CCR's 'nickel' either. I have personally layed out for this. At times recently I have been wondering why!

As it is my personal social evening for something I suggested, I'll state that I have NO problem calling the police if someone tries to barge in on my gathering.
I certainly have the liberty and right to invite who I want. There will be some non-R.E people in attendance. Let me also clearly state that NO VOTES will be taken at this meeting. It's not an offical S.E. Division meeting so we can't and we never intended to.

I'm not staying at the convention hotel either. I have stayed there in the past. I got tired of the cold rooms, the lights going out, the worn out carpeting and bedding. Why it matters where any of us stay I have no idea. Just something else Matt can gripe at I guess.

Here's some other items to consider.
The elected R.E.'s of all regions are the Board of Directors of the S.E. Division and have the responsibility to manage the affairs of the Region. Taking the time to fully discuss current matters seems a very appropriate action.

I don't think any of the R.E.'s are so stupid to think that they can "mandate" where racers will have to drive to race. We're all VERY aware of market forces.

I am very confident that all R.E.'s would make sure that any proposal, suggestion, plan or change to SARRC is fully discussed with members, made public, reviewed and would not be voted on before Atlanta 2006 mid-year meeting at the Earliest.

The reason that R.E.'s have not been continually responsing to this thread is because the whole thing is based on serious misrepresentation. It should not be necessary for us to spend time refuting things which are inaccurate at their base.

That said, I am happy that here has been so much interest and discussion about racing and the SARRC series in this thread. I just wish it hadn't been undertaken in the manner it was.

Matt may state that he has all this 'evidence' and I'm sure he has a copy of the 'proposal' (actually a discssion document), but there's no truth to the basic premise that at Jekyll the R.E.'s will vote on a limitation to SARRC races by regions.

I don't fully understand Toni's issues with the R.E.'s getting together alone to discuss racing matters. I am sure I'll hear more on that at Jekyll. Certainly Toni's posts about people keeping involed in their regions affairs are very valid. I wish that CCR had more involvement from all its racers.

MATT. You owe Barry Hair a public apology. You have made rude and disrepectful comments about him that were completely untrue.

Any further issues you have with my social evening on Friday, you can take up with me. And no, you're not invited.

Sincerely,
Martin Bartlett.
Regional Executive
Central Carolinas Region.

Mattberg
01-16-2006, 12:36 PM
The reason that R.E.'s have not been continually responsing to this thread is because the whole thing is based on serious misrepresentation. It should not be necessary for us to spend time refuting things which are inaccurate at their base.

That is the BIGGEST LIE in the world. Martin you are as big a liar as Barry. You know as well as I do you guys are trying to push this and every time you get caught in a lie you backtrack and go into hiding. It's embarassing to watch. I found out that this plan went on the agenda for the Friday meeting and only certain people were informed. Those with votes you thought would support it. Stop lying to everybody. Last, if you get ONE CENT of reimbursement for that hotel room and meeting room I will make sure that you are brought up on charges or at least sanctioned by the club. Just a warning. 501C guy, your books better be open and you better not have a receipt in there.

Catch22
01-16-2006, 01:05 PM
My pants party went so well I'm having another one.
Matt's not invited, and my books will be closed.

Hey Matt, I will give you credit for one thing... Consistency.
Thats a fine job you're doing. Keep it up baby!!!

BTW - If you ever threaten me or call me names like you have done to others here, I will find you. You won't be happy.
I say this to point out how lucky you are that someone hasn't already handed you your own balls. Keep taking shots like that and one day you'll take the wrong shot at the wrong person.
I suggest that Butch guy. He's kind of shady. Call him a few names. Make a few threats to him.
Go ahead. That'd be fun.

Mattberg
01-16-2006, 01:52 PM
Chris,

You're an affront to racers everywhere. You're supporting officials that have consistently lied over and over again in an effort to hurt racing and racers for the benefit of 25 racers and one egotistical man in one region. Go back to your useless "garage" thread and leave us alone to figure out what to do with our region.

BTW you said you're an autocrosser now so why do you even care? Butt buddy with Barry?

Mattberg
01-16-2006, 02:09 PM
One other thing Chris is that if Barry's plan works out it destroys racing in Georgia. Remember that. Because Florida will go their own way and there will be new dates that willcompete with the 18% of SEDIV racing Georgia now gets. You think it was tough gettin FL workers and drivers up there now? Wait till after this. We'll add another national and start our own series. No one will have to leave the state with more tracks than all the other regions put together.

BTW, more FL drivers go to Atlanta than GA drivers come to FL so you can take your argument and shove it. You're the one who losses in this whole deal. :023:

charrbq
01-16-2006, 02:16 PM
I question my reasoning when I come to this and other threads dominated by this "Mattberg" clown's rantings. His cursings, threats, character assasinations, biased opinions, claims of documents and witnesses, the whole mess. I just really don't know what goes on in the mind of such a person. I'm sure Freud could've gotten just as easily sidetracked with the chest pounding and screams from this poor, lonely person in search of an audience and attention.

I have never seen such twisted logic and half truths. Most disturbed people eventually run out of steam, but he seems to be fueled by attempts to reason and explain.

I've been RE of my former region and fought the different ego factions of the group that comes with the territory. It was taxing and took way too much time from my home life and my job...both suffered as I put more effort into the guidance of the region and its success. After tiring of the office, I was nominated for Chairman of the Board. After one meeting with the new board and seeing the kind of crap coming from the mouths of foolish people unlike Mattberg, I withdrew my nomination and resigned from the board. I couldn't handle that kind of personal sacrifice and personal attacts anymore.

I volunteered for the work and was rewarded by my fellow members with their respect by asking me to be one of their elected leaders. I was then acosted and attacked by other elected officials and their puppets. Some people can take that sort of thing and go on with the agenda...most can't. Had I been physically and "verbally" threatened like what I've read from Mattberg's poisoned keyboard, I would've resigned from the club. No one needs or deserves that.

To think that a member of one region would become so upset at an official of another region as to level these attacks at him is unbelievable. I know that the acts of one region can effect the division as a whole, but the leaders of all the other regions have a say, or at least an opportunity to have a say in what happens in their division. That is unless they have all signed their voting proxy to Mattberg.

I'm glad there are people who point out things to us all that just aren't right. There are things that go on in our club that may not be in our best interest, and we need to at least know about them before they happen. Acting on them is our decision, not someone elses. But no one deserves the kind of punishment that Mattberg levels at the RE of another region or the officer of any region or the member of any region or anyone who posts on this forum that might even remotely disagree with him.

The only person I can identify that used these kind of tactics against anyone was Adolf Hitler against the Jews.

charrbq
01-16-2006, 02:24 PM
Matt,
My name is Chris. If you took the time to open your eyes, you would see my name at the bottom of my posts. My parents gave it to me, and I'm proud of it. I sign all my posts with it, as I'm not afraid to be known by my real name. The guy you keep calling Chris is Scott. Had you taken the time to look, you would've read that when he pointed it out to you before. I don't mind you attacking me, and I'm sure Scott isn't afraid of your typewriter either. Scott is a good friend who I enjoy racing and bench racing with. If you differ with his opinion, I'm sure he can handle it as can I. Just take the time to get your name and your facts straight. Not doing so only proves incompetence.

Butch Kummer
01-16-2006, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Mattberg@Jan 16 2006, 09:29 AM
Alabama's RE and his friends have been doing exactly that to us for a couple of months now. He says there was no discussion of this plan and when we prove there was he says it was only a discussion of an "idea". He says there was no plan written and when we prove there was a written plan he says it was nothing. When we prove it was selectively distributed he redistributes it seven months after the fact and claims it was distributed. When we prove there is a secret meeting planned they get someone else to come here and call it a private "cocktail party". Then we find out yesterday afternoon that they have a SEDIV agenda in which this plan is included? In addition I find out that Barry is out lobbying the non-racing regions to back it? What am I supposed to think? He's assembling votes of these little non-racing regions because they have as much power in their single vote as any racing region. One region has two people!!!! This is a total manipulation of a broken system. It's not about Florida being greedy it's about Alabama being greedy. We just want to race and Barry doesn't want us to so he can make money and be a big man.

I have not lied or misrepresented anything for personal gain like those I've exposed here.

Matt, the reason no officials have responded here is because you choose not to believe anything that differs from your particular point of view. There are a NUMBER of inaccuracies in your post:

Barry Hair did NOT present the original proposal. It was verbally presented at the mid-year meeting by Fred Clark, a member of the Bucanneer Region. The "delayed" e-mail was sent out by Ted Michelbrink, not Barry. Ted thought he had sent it out just after the mid-year but found that it was never sent. Barry happened to be the first name on the list because he's the (duly elected) RE of the Alabama Region and the addresses appear alphabetically by region name.

Martin Bartlett finds out about the thread, explains the Friday night party and declares that should any action come from discussions at said social, they will be presented at the SEDIV meeting and no vote would be taken until the 2006 mid-year meeting. So you decide he's lying and/or Barry's pawn.

And have you (or anyone else) actually READ Fred's proposal? The key phrase is that the eight current racing regions START with one National, one Regional, one school and one "special event", then the remaining weekends are distributed via a lottery-type system. The current mileage and consecutive weekend restrictions would remain. This is one PROPOSAL for a way to open up weekends for regions that want to get on the calendar, but it does NOT set a maximum number of races per region or track, just how they'd get applied for. Because they're on the edges of the Division, Florida and North Carolina would get to keep all/most of their current weekends - the central regions (yes, Atlanta Region) would be hurt most by this. But then regardless of what you THINK is being discussed covertly, this proposal (should it ever reach the status of a motion) would be defeated.

What else have you misrepresented?

There NEVER was a proposal to limit racing in SEDIV to the eight regions that currently hold races, but then you've backed off from that particular windmill, haven't you?

Catch-22's name is not Chris, it's Scott.

I don't know if Barry (or anyone else) is out lobbying with the smaller regions or not. I also don't know if Jeff Gordon is gay or not, I only know that he's never hit on me.

I am certainly a racer, I will be attending the Friday night party and I will represent the views of racers throughout the division. I will also be representing workers and officials throughout the division as well, because I count myself among them as well.

And yes, I WOULD like you to physically threaten me...

Butch Kummer

Mattberg
01-16-2006, 03:10 PM
Butch, reflecting back on our original conversation everyting is so reversed, First you siad there was no proposal, no you say there is but it was from Fred Clark. You said it was only discussion but then you say it was not sent to certain people by mistake and then resent 7 months later. You said this was never an agenda issue but now it is and at a closed meeting which you're invited to and not some others including as I understand, the area director. What's the deal? You said this thing has no chance but yet you're attending Barry's meeting and he's out lobbying everyone and anyone to back it.

As far as the physical threat issue that Scott started, I can only say that you're both idiots for resorting to that kind of talk.

Butch Kummer
01-16-2006, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Mattberg@Jan 16 2006, 03:10 PM
As far as the physical threat issue that Scott started, I can only say that you're both idiots for resorting to that kind of talk.


As I recall, it was another idiot that talked about being 6'5" and 225 pounds when threatening Barry with a blanket party. Any idea who that might have been? Or is YOUR story going to change?

In our original discussion back in October (?), I said I'd never seen a written proposal. It was verbally presented by Fred Clark at the mid-year meeting and I was on the other side of the room. The first I saw the written proposal was in December via a forwarded e-mail to my RE from Ted Michelbrink, Buccaneer RE. Again, it's a PROPOSAL meant to initiate discussion about a problem in SEDIV, not a motion requesting action!

And if you'll go back to my post that started this thread, you note that I said I was somewhat uncomfortable attending this private party but felt I needed to do so to adequately represent the region that elected me. Rather than operate on hearsay and innuendo, as a duly elected official (who actually accepted a nomination and ran for the office) I'll attend the meeting and make any decisions based on what I hear there and during the meetings on Saturday and Sunday. I don't know who else has been invited, it's not my party.

The good news is this might finally die after this weekend, but then you'll certainly find another topic to misrepresent.

I'm done here...

Catch22
01-16-2006, 08:22 PM
OK, I'm going to quit making fun of Matt. I've decided that he must actually be mentally disturbed and I don't like picking on the disabled. Thats just wrong.

"Blanket parties"
"Scumbags"
"idiots"
etc etc etc

Matt, you do realize you type this stuff. Right?

Anyway, I think you need to give that Butch guy a blanket party.
When you see him at Jekyll, make sure you have a blanket in your hand, and call him names. Run right up to him with your blanket and call him an idiot scumbag!

And PLEASE... Somebody have a video camera rolling.

SCOTT, who's name is SCOTT and has already pointed that out to MATT at least once.

Mattberg
01-16-2006, 09:04 PM
That's fair Butch. I know a bunch of folks didn't get the original memo and I'm sure you're one of them. It was sent out to most as a cover your ass memo after we exposed it and after they said it didn't exist. Just recognize that, please. They also said this meeting was an informal party and it's not. It has a SEDIV agenda and many are not invited. They said it wasn't two weeks ago. That's a big problem. After all, as I've said, I think this hurts Atlanta region more than any others and find it hard to believe you could ever see any merit in it.

Scott, sorry about the name mix up. Is it that big a deal? I get called lots of other names... :happy204: But why don't you go autocrossing as you said you were going to do and leave us to our racing business? Do you want racers to lose races close to home so Barry Hair can make money? Barry is pushing his plan because we gave him a new plan that is a lot more fair and he doesn't like it because he's not the boss. This meeting is a way of fast tracking his idea and ignoring the SARRC adminstrator's better plan. He's just out of control and on a crusade to be a big fish in a small pond. Why can you not see that? Wiregrass Region has two friggin' people and they get the same vote as CFR! He's using that to his advantage and turning this into a losing battle for SEDIV. Without Florida and North Carolina SEDIV is Atlanta only which is 18% of the division. Barry is forcing that possibility thinking it won't happen. I guarantee you it will if he wins this vote which it looks like he will. It will be the end of SARRC and the end of SEDIV which is now the best and strongest division in the country.

Russ Myers
01-16-2006, 09:26 PM
Remember folks, this is an old liberal debating trick. He who screams the loudest (and most often) wins. Facts should never get in the way. When presented with facts, blustering and name calling will elevate your position to that of above your foe. Threats of physical violence carry a lot of weight, because everyone will know how really, really serious you are. And this above all, there is no room in your mind for change. To even think you might need to re-evaluate your position shows weakness, and this will not be tolerated.

Matthew is very right about what will happen if the powers that be are allowed to talk to each other. Mass hysteria will ensue, the earth will tremble, cats and dogs will be living together, etc., etc., etc. Hell, the whole of the SCCA may well colapse and we will all have to race with NASA, or worse yet, go roundy-pounding(I'd like to see threats of violence delivered there, you'd get a camshaft upside yo' haid). The best thing that could happen is the SCCA dies a horrible death over this. Then I could use all the money I spend on racing for other persuits, like RETIREMENT.

Russ, who would like to see "Chicken Little" southern fried, with a side of rice and gravy!!!

Post thought: Folks, the SCCA has been around for a long time. our regions have been a round a while, too. I imagine that "this, too, shall pass".

JeffYoung
01-16-2006, 09:37 PM
Russ, tend to agree with most of that, but it's an old conservative debating trick too. In fact, it is an old HUMAN debating trick. The list of loudmouth conservatives and liberals is infinitely long.......

Russ Myers
01-16-2006, 09:39 PM
Uh, so true, so true.

Russ

Catch22
01-17-2006, 12:18 AM
Here's a fun little exercise.
Lets look at some things Matt has posted just in this thread (if we were to go to others, this would get MUCH worse and I don't even have time to do that) and decide for ourselves what sort of credibility lies within Mr. Matt.

Keep in mind Matt, there are things that YOU have typed. I'm using the quote button, these things are not debateable.

Lets start here...


As far as the physical threat issue that Scott started, I can only say that you're both idiots for resorting to that kind of talk.

Now, lets look at these things direct from Matt's keyboard...


You are a sad little man.


What a bunch of jackasses.


Bunch of retards


assholes like Barry


I've had enough of you losers who want to protect officials at the cost of racers.


Fu*k Alabama! Go Florida!

Again, thats just from this thread and doesn't include things like "blanket party" threats.

Here's the deal Matt. Two things you need to know...

1. Even IF the sky was falling, nobody in their right mind would listen to you because you come across as a raving lunatic.

2. If you talk like the above to just about everyone I know, you WILL get your ass whipped for you. I recommend you stuff a cork in that before someone gets sick of it and gives you your own "blanket party."

I'm just trying to be helpful. If you go to Jekyll and approach people with this sort of attitude, you are going to end up far worse than ignored. Actually, you won't be ignored at all.

But seriously, that Butch SOB is actually behind the whole thing. Barry and Martin are just his puppets (Butch calls them "Number 3" and "Number 4," my organization hasn't figured out who #2 is, but we think it may be a double agent. Shhhhhhhhh... thats top secret).
So really, if you are going to go after someone, Butch (or "Edward?" What is his REAL name... Hmmmmmm?) is your man.

Scott, who is just kidding Matt. Really. Don't get all googly eyed and go after Butch. Really, don't.
But if you do... I need video. Seriously. I'll pay for a copy.

PS - I'm kidding again. Don't actually do that.

PS2 - Am I making fun of him again? Dammit. I'm an ass.

PS3 - Stop sending me PMs Matt. I don't read them.

Mattberg
01-17-2006, 09:31 AM
Unfortunately you have managed to do exactly what Barry and others involved in this "plan" want. Shoot the messenger and deflect the real issue, which is of importance not only in SEDIV but on a national level. That is, the unchecked ability of an official(s) to operate outside of reasonable guidelines, without accountability and in pursuit of implementing plans detrimental to the division for the benefit of a minority of the division's driver and worker population.

We started by writing letters, making phone calls and seeking information from regional officials. What we were given was most often misinformation and/or lack of response. After numerous deceptions we were given excuses and double talk. In certain cases we were simply lied to. In the end the standard "volunteer" argument was offered along with the "if you don't like it run for office" argument. Why you seem to think that's acceptable is beyond comprehension.

The bottom line is that the Alabama region and perhaps others, want to be racing regions and self admittedly, Alabama wants the economic benefits of being such at the expense of other regions and perhaps bring on the dismantling of SEDIV. The fact that they don't have a track and only 50 or so drivers and workers combined is not even being considered. Don't you think that being a racing region should require being able to actually put on a race? That's only the tip of the iceberg. Considering that they want to make Roebling their home track smacks of the same thing they are accusing Florida of considering that so many regions would be calling Roebling their home track. They claim Florida has too many competing dates at their four tracks yet they want to double up on dates all at one track vis-a-vis three or four regions. If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is.

Aside from the pure racing issue there is the method by which this action is taking place. It basically exposes a serious flaw in the divisional system. We have a region with just two licensed drivers and workers that has as much voting power as Central Florida or North Carolina with over 1400 drivers and workers. And that, is exactly how Alabama is trying to do this. Barry has been calling all the little non-racing regions looking for support. (One of those discussions with an RE was detailed in a meeting I had on Sunday afternoon along with the news that the plan had become an agenda item). Sell them the economics of being a racing region and knock down big bad Florida and North Carolina. So who wins and who loses? Well, regions like Alabama and South Carolina end up with a disproportionately good number of races based on their driver and worker count and regions like Florida, CFR and North Carolina end up on the other end of the disproportionate scale. Currently it's already heavily skewed and this plan seeks to make it even more so. Alabama has one race for every 25 drivers and workers while CFR has one race for every 220. Does that seem fair?

We were told they were looking for a more equitable distribution of races. Does increasing that ratio seem equitable? If anything we should be talking about increasing and decreasing the number of races per region based on driver and worker counts not on what what one region wants to be profitable simply because it exists without regard for the region's resources, size or population. We were told there were concerns over workers. Can't get workers? Plan fewer events or start recruiting more workers. Don't have a track? I Guess you shouldn't be planning events. What Barry is proposing is the equivalent of using my car and gas card to start a delivery service for free. Use your own car and gas. Don't have a car or gas? Well then. Guess you shouldn't be in the delivery service.

In addition to all of this is the fact that we were told this would not be an agenda item. Butch was emphatic about that and I doubt there was any reason for him to think otherwise but I don't believe he knew how intent Barry was in working the issue through. Regardless, the fact is that now, it is, as I always believed it would be, an agenda item despite reassurances from many officials that it wouldn't be. If I thought saying "I told you so" would do anything I'd be happy as heck but the end result is they bulldozed their way in ignoring everyone who had concerns and told us it wasn't an issue. Ultimately they reached their goal of getting their plan on the agenda while keeping us all in the dark. Now we face the possibility of losing a vote somewhere down the road based on the fact that voting is not a function of population but is based on the mere existence of a region, and it's too late to do anything about it. Another tactic commonly used by officials that I warned about early on. And for anyone out there who still believes that this plan could never win, you need only review the regional structure of the SEDIV and count up the votes. CFR, Florida, North Carolina and maybe Atlanta. That's 77% of the SEDIV but only 4 votes. There's 14 other votes out there including four that would call Roebling home and possibly three or four others.

So the only guarantee in this whole thing is the Florida "trump card" which is bad for everbody especially those that are currently self supporting racing regions close to Florida like Atlanta and Buccaneer. Simply put, the "trump card" is that Florida threatens to leave the division. Will it kill the plan? I don't know that it would necessarily have enough effect on enough regions. With around 50% of all the drivers and workers it would be devastating to the division. Furthermore, Florida would certainly add some dates that would keep Florida folks even closer to home than they are now hurting Atlanta and Buccaneer. I know I have to make a trip to Roebling or Atlanta as it stands now but as a separate division you could bet the farm there would be at least four or five Nationals in Florida, probably more and surely a new regional series to replace SARRC. With over 1000 drivers, 700 workers and a 253 car average, I would venture to guess that Florida on its own, now that CENDIV has split, would probably be the second largest division nationally behind NEDIV. So it's a very reasonable possibility and the only option available if faced with any type of approval of this plan.

But Barry doesn't seem to care about the division. What he seems to care about is the revenue and prowess from being a racing region. His 50 licensed drivers and workers won't feel any effect because everything they get now is gravy anyway. They currently enjoy the highest per person race schedule in the division and they don't even have a track! For Alabama it's a no lose situation so why not go for it? And it sure looks like that's what he's doing. The sad part of it is he might just win.

What bothers me most is that with this issue everytime we hear that something is not going to happen or something is not true it turns out to be the opposite. If you remember, Barry and a few others came here and originally claimed the discussion never took place. After Toni came out with her version there were more denials. When a written copy came out almost verbatim from what Toni wrote, we never heard from Barry again. Just remember that this all started with a couple of people who claimed the plan which is now an agenda item was never even discussed, and there hasn't been a divsional meeting since. How'd an issue that was never discussed become an agenda item? ;) :D

See you all at Jeckyll. :023:

Matt Rowe
01-17-2006, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Mattberg@Jan 17 2006, 08:31 AM
Unfortunately you have managed to do exactly what Barry and others involved in this "plan" want. Shoot the messenger and deflect the real issue
71081


Threats, name calling and endless rhetoric like the above are what deflected the issue. You've said it yourself, many people will go against any cause just because YOU are involved. So if you really believe all of this stuff you have been spewing the best thing to do would be to SHUT UP and let some one else that is less confrontational and offensive make sure SEDIV doesn't tear itself apart. Unless YOU have your own secret agenda.

Mattberg
01-17-2006, 10:37 AM
Matt, I don't think I threatened anyone other than with silly string or otherwise in jest. I'm pretty much a pacifist. I wish though, I had a dime for everytime someone threatened me physically and was not joking! :D As far as name calling, I call em' like I see em'. Lie to people and your a liar. Barry Lied. He's a liar. He said the discussion never took place. Basically called Toni a liar. Deception by an official in a club of amateur hobbyists is a sad, scummy thing to do. How could you disagree? Plus he's a lawyer! :D Making a divisional agenda item an invitation only deal? Gimme' a break. Any name calling is well deserved. Scott on the other hand is simply executing a strict character attack and thinks he's funny. I don't mind. I'm thick skinned. :happy204:

And if no one listens as you say, I can at least be secure that everyone knows about it. 12,000 views on the one thread and now over 1,300 on this one. Never been more on this site. Just need to get the word out and that's been done best I know how. I get as many good e-mails and PMs as bad ones. You'd be surprised how many officials are happy to have me around to do the dirty work when some nut case comes up with a lame brained scheme they need to expose. How it's done may not appeal to you but a lot of people get the story and I don't opine often and do little without confirming facts (especially since getting sued for defamation this year. I won the case. :happy204: ). All the facts I've put up have been confirmed including those denied by Barry and others. People can make up their own minds and I trust they're a lot smarter than to ignore a real issue just because they don't like me.

Last, I really don't want to see Florida leave the division even though it probably would be good for me personally. I like the fact that SEDIV is the biggest division in the SCCA and being part of that. Hate to see it break up but we're not gong to stand for a guy who represents 25 drivers trying to dictate terms by using fourteen non-racing regions to bolster support in a flawed voting system. I have no agenda but to race as much as I can. If they take away races I can't do that. So I guess my agenda is the more racing not less! :023: :happy204:

Matt Rowe
01-17-2006, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Mattberg@Jan 17 2006, 09:37 AM
You'd be surprised how many officials are happy to have me around to do the dirty work when some nut case comes up with a lame brained scheme they need to expose.
71092


If that is truly the case then you should be putting up their names here as well. If an official is not willing to take the heat and make the tough decisions, then other sports beckon. Personally, I don't think that happens nearly as much as you allude to. But even if it is that common I'm tired of hearing ths same sorry excuse from you for YOUR poor behavior with nothing to back it up. As I said before, you've gotten the word out so now it's time to shut up.

And don't try to down play the threats that you made. Be man enough to admit that you DID physically and legally threatened several people during this whole rampage of yours. Those are the not the acts of a pacifist. They are the acts of someone who can't resolve issues through rational discussion and someone who should not be entertaining delusions of being the sole champion of causes for the "real racers."

Now, will the moderator please lock this discussion as it has again degenerated into another pointless waste of time.

charrbq
01-17-2006, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Matt Rowe@Jan 17 2006, 04:19 PM
If that is truly the case then you should be putting up their names here as well. If an official is not willing to take the heat and make the tough decisions, then other sports beckon. Personally, I don't think that happens nearly as much as you allude to. But even if it is that common I'm tired of hearing ths same sorry excuse from you for YOUR poor behavior with nothing to back it up. As I said before, you've gotten the word out so now it's time to shut up.

And don't try to down play the threats that you made. Be man enough to admit that you DID physically and legally threatened several people during this whole rampage of yours. Those are the not the acts of a pacifist. They are the acts of someone who can't resolve issues through rational discussion and someone who should not be entertaining delusions of being the sole champion of causes for the "real racers."

Now, will the moderator please lock this discussion as it has again degenerated into another pointless waste of time.

71101

I'll second the last sentence. I question how this guy has been allowed to use this forum in such an abusive fashion. The physical and verbal threats/name calling should be enough to get him punted. He has achieved only one thing...bringing out the worst in all of us.

Mattberg
01-17-2006, 03:09 PM
If squirting someone with a child's water pistol or a can of silly string is a legal and physical threat, guilty as charged. :rolleyes: If you took the issue half as seriously as you take the delivery of the message maybe you'd see the seriousness of the problem, but you're too caught up hating Mattberg for personal reasons.

Also, the thread is not useless. The racers in Florida and North Carolina would be severly affected by the plan that was suggested. Keeping up to date with what's going on is of significant importance. It also addresses some important side issues that effect all of SEDIV if not every division in the country, specifically as it relates to voting rights and procedures. Should a region with two licensed members even be allowed to exist and vote with the same impact of a region with 1500? One of my proposals for Jeckyll will certainly be a plan for proportional voting based on driver and worker counts. THe system in place now disregards any semblance of popular vote.

Last and most importantly, the issue was addressed initially with rataional discussion and communications. I started after that broke down. It's difficult to continue doing so when one side wants to win so badly that they begin lying and spreading misinformation. Especially when there is a concerted effort on the part of more than one person in a position of power and perceived respect. Everybody said there was no way in the world this proposal had a snowball's chance in hell of getting on the table but here we are a week away and they got exactly that. Barry said he wouldn't support any such plan (I will go back and get the exact quote if you'd like) but he was working the phone last week trying to get support for it from the little non-racing regions. These are people you expect to have rational discussions with? How could you believe anything they say when they turn around and do exactly the opposite of what they say they're going to do? It's called bad faith negotiating and I saw it early and chose not to be subject to it. In the end it looks like I was right on target. ;)

Matt Rowe
01-17-2006, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Mattberg@Jan 17 2006, 02:09 PM
If squirting someone with a child's water pistol or a can of silly string is a legal and physical threat, guilty as charged. :rolleyes:

71112


To use your words:

"We will be there Barry and you will be lucky if we don't drag you out and put you in the dumpster." Dec 21 7:48 PM

"You'll be lucky to make it out of Jeckyll Island without a blanket party. If I were you I wouldn't even show up. Look for me. 6'5" around 200 lbs." Dec 21 8:39 PM

Now looking up the legal definition of assault:

assault 1) v. the threat or attempt to strike another, whether successful or not, provided the target is aware of the danger.

I wouldn't be so quick to say guilty as charged. :D

And here we have you threatening legal action.

"The other regions claim it's on the Alabama nickel but I'll make sure of that. One penny gets assigned to SEDIV and Barry will be wearing stripes and a number across his chest." Dec 21 11:39

You had a busy day on the 21st, didn't you? And that was just one day. As I said if you're going to threaten someone be man enough to admit it without hiding behind your childish ideas about silly string and water pistols.


Originally posted by Mattberg@Jan 17 2006, 02:09 PM
If you took the issue half as seriously as you take the delivery of the message maybe you'd see the seriousness of the problem, but you're too caught up hating Mattberg for personal reasons.

71112


Oh I do take the issue seriously, but I also don't believe everything one person says just because it shouted the loudest and most frequently. The viewpoint of one person is rarely the complete story and as others have shown there is more going on here than just what you say. And my reasons for disliking your approach ARE personal. They are personal because I invest a lot of time in this club working to improve visibility, bring in new members and help work towards a better future. And it is personally very upsetting to see someone who is more than willing to tear apart a region, a division or an individual in the name what is best for the "real racers". Do you honestly think you are going to split SEDIV and if so what kind of idiot is so selfish as to do so much damage to the racers in one area in the country because you can't find a way to work things out? You must have thought the IRL / CART split was a good thing too, huh?

What is best for us is to work together and your divide and conquer, slash and burn techniques don't seem to get very far. Let's see, by your own admission the national spec miata class was held up in part because it was you working on it. This SEDIV matter is supposedly continuing forward despite your ranting and can only be stopped by a vote. Gee, that's what would have happened anyway. Sure you got the word about, but did you have to threaten people to do so? Your "investigation" into club finances went nowhere and there are still no answers. So what EXACTLY are you any good at? You've even said that the best way to get something approved by the club is to have you oppose it. You make that comment as a joke without realizing how much it says about your abiliities.


Originally posted by Mattberg@Jan 17 2006, 02:09 PM
Last and most importantly, the issue was addressed initially with rataional discussion and communications. I started after that broke down.

71112


Well if calling officials "greedy and overbearing" in the FIRST message about this is your idea of rational discussion then that pretty much sums up the problem. You don't understand what a rationl discussion is without resorting to name calling. You attacked this like a junkyard dog, barking loudly and trying to scare everyone as is your typical method. And you expect everyone else to swallow whatever you shovel out while shouting down any dissenting opinion until people are too tired to argue.


And finally, what about my comments about hiding these "numerous" officials who aren't willing to stand up and do what they believe is right? No comment from you on that? You're willing to slander some people for trying to make changes but hide others who are unwilling to do their job. Or are you just full of it? Trotting out that line whenever YOUR motivations are challenged?

Russ Myers
01-17-2006, 06:48 PM
What would you have us, as REAL RACERS, do? What course of action do you suggest? LEAD US oh kinky turtle.

Russ

Mattberg
01-17-2006, 07:40 PM
You crack me up Russ. I think what we need to do is look at the facts. First of all, Alabama is not a racing region. They think they are but they're not and will never be without some big membership push. They are 25 drivers racing at a track hundreds of miles away in a different state. It's somewhat comical. It's sort of like like Providence, Rhode Island trying to be an NFL city. :D

We need to show up at the meeting and voice how wrong this plan is and how it only hurts drivers as a general population. It's good for 50 guys (ultimately bad)and immediately bad for 2000. Pressure must be put on REs to ignore the plan and Barry Hair and start concentrating on drivers and product.

To tell you the truth I've reviewed the bylaws and I see nothing to stop this. Perhaps simple outrage and pressure will force REs into an act of conscience. Honestly I don't see any way of stopping it. It's gone too far to fast which I was worried about the moment people started calling it ridiculous and that it could never happen. It all depends on who supports it. I don't think the little regions have anything to lose. Atlanta is actually the big loser. Roebling and Buccaneer could end up with a bunch of business, small but more than usual. Florida on its own will be more than fine. It's just a shame to see it come down to this and the way it was done is really abhorrent.

What else can we do? Write letters, e-mails, call friends, call your RE. Cross your fingers. :023:

Anubis
01-18-2006, 12:35 AM
This thread made me giggle like a lil schoolgirl, I needed the laugh.

Butch's secret group is not organized by numbers, instead by colors. I heard there was lots of fighting over who ended up with Mr Pink.

No public pants parties Chris, no Scott... no Chris, no Scott, argh its so confusing with only website links and names in signatures and people stating their names. :119:

tom_sprecher
01-18-2006, 01:14 AM
Hey Weisberg,

Are you going to be in Jekyll this weekend? During the 4:00 SEDiv reports general business meeting on Saturday you could accuse the offenders in person before the majority, present your case backed by the evidence you have and get a verdict.

How about it? Then we could be rid of the threat for good.

charrbq
01-18-2006, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by Anubis@Jan 18 2006, 04:35 AM
This thread made me giggle like a lil schoolgirl, I needed the laugh.

Butch's secret group is not organized by numbers, instead by colors. I heard there was lots of fighting over who ended up with Mr Pink.

No public pants parties Chris, no Scott... no Chris, no Scott, argh its so confusing with only website links and names in signatures and people stating their names. :119:

71143

Lance, I understand your confusion, but I've never been able to understand Mattberg's. My name is at the bottom of all my posts. Scott's isn't. How he got them confused is beyond me.

Mattberg
01-18-2006, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by tom_sprecher@Jan 18 2006, 05:14 AM
Hey Weisberg,

Are you going to be in Jekyll this weekend? During the 4:00 SEDiv reports general business meeting on Saturday you could accuse the offenders in person before the majority, present your case backed by the evidence you have and get a verdict.

How about it? Then we could be rid of the threat for good.

71147


I'll be there, but the meeting of importance is on Friday and I'm not invited. And Tom, I really don't think accusing anyone of anything at this point can serve much purpose. They did what I said they were going to do and what all of you said could and would never happen. Now it's a matter of whether Barry gan garner enough support for the plan and if so, what happens? I'm debating whether presence at Jeckyll is even going to accomplish anything. It may be simply too little, too late. The meeting of substance will probably be the CFR meeting later in the month that deals with the outcome at Jeckyll.

So what's done is done. I can go back and get Barry's quotes about how he would never back this plan but then we start getting calls from officials who says he's lobbying REs of the samll regions for adoption. Does it do any good to continue accusations of such? Nope. Can it be stopped? Nope. If he gets enough of them though, and they have nothing to lose, they'll win a vote hands down. There's 14 of them and four of us (Florida, CFR, North Carolina and Atlanta). Atlanta gets hit the hardest because any Florida racers that go to Atlanta (remember that National racers MUST go to either Atlanata or Roebling at least once and a lot of us really don't care for Roebling) will be staying at home as Florida will surely add a couple of new nationals if they separate. By the count I've got that would hit Atlanta for around 16% of their driver and 6% of their worker count.

I&#39;m still trying to figure out who Barry thinks is going to work Alabama events in Georgia with a region that only has 21 workers total or where they&#39;re going to find enough cars to throw a national against a competing date in Florida. He also would have to get yet another exemption and I&#39;d be surprised if it were allowed. It really is a short sighted plan and makes little sense unless you&#39;re selling it to Karl Marx. Maybe these points aren&#39;t making it through to him. I don&#39;t know. But I really don&#39;t think he has analyzed the situation minus Florida and assumes that Florida would adhere to any restrictions of a divisional plan. That perfect little world is never going to happen and covincing Barry otherwise just doesn&#39;t seem to be in the cards. <_<

p.s. As it relates to Atlanta which I know is your concern, it wil be interesting to hear what North Carolina has to say. Not being large enough to split off they&#39;d have to accept it. Or would they look at moving to NEDIV? Not sure if that could be done but if I were the NC RE I&#39;d sure be looking at options. If that happened Atlanta would really get hit hard. With three tracks (VIR, Kershaw, Summit Point) they have some interesting options. Actually I think there&#39;s also a fourth track, isn&#39;t there? Anyway, bottom line is that I think any restrictions forced upon anyone that is currently a succesful racing region will ultimately draw the North and South driver and worker populations away from Atlanta. I already heard talk of boycotts of Roebling races from a number of national guys at Homestead last weekend. The point is to do yourself a favor Tom and look at all the facts. I don&#39;t think you&#39;ll find anything good about this plan especially for Atlanta region and when Butch Kummer said he was totally against it I can understand why looking at the bigger picture.

Butch Kummer
01-18-2006, 10:03 AM
I thought for a second MattBerg and I might actually agree on something, but then the thought of Hell freezing over got the better of me.

I WILL be at the Secret Meeting on Friday night (since I&#39;m really the ringleader of the whole movement - don&#39;t do me any more favors, Scott! :) ). I&#39;ve seen no secret agenda, I don&#39;t expect any votes to be taken, Barry (nor anyone else) has been lobbying for my vote and I fully expect nothing to result from that meeting other than a better understanding of the issues that each region faces. But unlike MattBerg, I AM willing to admit that I could be wrong and I&#39;m being deceived by those clever few bent on destroying SEDIV for their own personal gain.

The SEDIV racing calendar is extremely crowded, which promotes worker burnout and makes it difficult for a fledgling racing region to hold events. In my mind this is very much analogous (that means "similar", MattBerg) to the I-A vs. I-AA battles in the NCAA. Before scholarship limitations, schools like Alabama (my God, do I detect a trend here?) and Oklahoma would offer scholarships to guys they knew would never play just to keep the competing schools from getting them. Fair or not, the scholarship limitations have made college football more enjoyable. The difference is, we already have race limitations in total events, mileage between events and consecutive weekends. Perhaps those rules could use some tweaking, but NOT wholesale change.

Will such tweaking come out of the meetings at Jekyll? I don&#39;t know. What I DO know follows (and this is supported by my RE, Tere Pulliam as well):

1. Any REAL proposal (i.e. - a motion to be voted upon by the RE&#39;s) to redistribute races within SEDIV will have to be brought up during Sunday&#39;s RE meeting.

2. IF (notice the capitals) such a proposal is presented, I/we will argue that any vote be delayed until the Mid-Year meeting to give time for membership input.

3. CFR&#39;s Board of Governors has already directed their RE Rick Balderson to "pursue other affiliations" (not their specific words, but I don&#39;t have the e-mail from Rick here) should their racing program be arbitrarily cut back in any way (i.e. - they will explore dropping out of SEDIV).

4. Atlanta Region is happy with our current race program and would explore similar options should SEDIV try to further limit our options.

5. Based on #3 & #4 above, SEDIV as we know it today would cease to exist should any proposal similar to the one as interpreted by MattBerg is adopted. There may POSSIBLY be some SEDIV RE&#39;s that would like to see that happen, but not near enough to carry the vote.

The part MattBerg and I almost agree upon is that you need to help your elected officials do their job. Let them know what you think (you already know my views) about how racing is carried out in YOUR division. Just say it once, however - camping on their doorstep and shouting over a bullhorn that they&#39;re idiots just ticks &#39;em off!

What pi$$es me off is that after no vote is taken nor proposals result at the Secret Meeting, MattBerg will take all the credit for having influenced the outcome. I guess I&#39;ll have to live with that.

I&#39;m done here until after Jekyll. When we get back I hope to have an official announcement about the Atlanta Region Labor Day Double SARRC for 2006 (and beyond)...

Butch Kummer
Atlanta Region Comp.Director

tom_sprecher
01-18-2006, 10:58 AM
Based on the last response I don&#39;t know why I bother but with nothing but junk email in my inbox I guess I have the time.

Matt, nothing has been done, yet. No call to order, no proposal, no motion, no vote. The “secret meeting” if anything is a private affair held not at the request of Barry for the purpose of trying to look at various topics of concern in a relaxed environment. I honestly don’t have a problem with that and have done the same in business and I can tell you it is a very effective tool.

By not voicing your findings to a larger audience other than what has read your rants on this forum you have wasted everyone’s time and your efforts. If enough people are not made aware of what can happen, it can. The system works by informed members letting their leadership know how they feel and want said leaders to vote. If the membership is not informed, this process can’t even get off the ground. You will have failed unless stirring up $hit is all you wish to accomplish. Plus, who needs a dog that’s all bark and no bite?

To be honest, the question about Jekyll was really just bait and it looks like I caught what I was angling for. I’m done fishing. See everyone at Jekyll this weekend.

Mattberg
01-18-2006, 11:02 AM
Mitch, I mean Butch...just kidding... :happy204:

I like everything you&#39;ve said. But you have to admit we&#39;ve come a long way to the current point from a discussion that "never took place". The fact that we, CFR, are already looking at alternate associations is a BFD. Point is that this was far more than it was made out to be and it is now materializing. I would just like a little recognition for that but...

Just so you know, I want NO CREDIT for anything. I just want to race without limitations and without crazy people running regions with 21 workers trying to be a major racing region with the assumption that limiting other regions will make them successful or that they can ramrod their programs. We also need to change the voting system. Wiregrass? 2 members? Paaalease.

Like I said before, I think this is a dangerous proposal for Atlanta. If CFR and/or Florida go out on their own it&#39;s actually very good for me but I still don&#39;t like it looking at the bigger picture. If I were selfish enough I&#39;d be out there supporting Barry. In the end let&#39;s just make sure this thing doesn&#39;t see the light of day. I&#39;ll be there not with a bull horn but with a briefcase full of documentation and statistics. I&#39;ve learned that in the final stages of any negotiation or debate numbers are hard to argue against. I might make a lot of noise in the beginning but when we get to the table I&#39;ll be all business. :023:

Mattberg
01-18-2006, 11:12 AM
That&#39;s not true Tom. As you can see from Butch&#39;s post CFR has already taken certain actions. We were notified on Sunday that the plan had been added to the Jeckyll agenda. That&#39;s a long way from nothing discussed or nothing happeneing. Furthermore it&#39;s a divisional agenda item in an invitation only meeting. I have a huge problem with that. Don&#39;t you?

wbp
01-18-2006, 08:25 PM
If you wish to gather some truth on this subject, which has been a huge distortion, go to the Central Florida Region site and see Rick Balderson&#39;s "January RE Report". As he quotes there this is "an acorn someone is trying to make into an oak tree".
www.cfrscca.org

Mattberg
01-18-2006, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by wbp@Jan 19 2006, 12:25 AM
If you wish to gather some truth on this subject, which has been a huge distortion, go to the Central Florida Region site and see Rick Balderson&#39;s "January RE Report". As he quotes there this is "an acorn someone is trying to make into an oak tree".
www.cfrscca.org

71200



But Barry is watering that acorn like a madman. :D The good news is people are starting to see how much of a lunatic he is. I&#39;ve heard some of the REs are turning around on the issue. I hope this trend continues. Even his own region&#39;s drivers are starting to see him as an obstacle. I&#39;ve heard that we&#39;d be back at Barber if it weren&#39;t for Barry. He screwed it up and as a matter of pride he won&#39;t go back.

As far as it being "nothing to worry about" I wouldn&#39;t go that far. CFR is already taking action in the event this should go further and that is a full split from the division. I&#39;ve heard the BoG have mnet and have no problems with an immediate split should Barry&#39;s little plan get approval. Let&#39;s dig up that acorn and flush it. This is a turd we can&#39;t leave floating. :D

Catch22
01-18-2006, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by Mattberg@Jan 18 2006, 08:37 PM
But Barry is watering that acorn like a madman. :D The good news is people are starting to see how much of a lunatic he is. I&#39;ve heard some of the REs are turning around on the issue. I hope this trend continues. Even his own region&#39;s drivers are starting to see him as an obstacle. I&#39;ve heard that we&#39;d be back at Barber if it weren&#39;t for Barry. He screwed it up and as a matter of pride he won&#39;t go back.


71202


OK Matt,
Just shut the hell up. Thats enough.

This post PROVES (as if we didn&#39;t already know) that you are completely dilusional and have no idea what you are talking about.

Your own RE has basically just published that you are making a huge deal out of nothing. Not only are you making a huge deal out of it, but you are publicly defaming people in the process.
Its unwarranted and you just need to shut your damned mouth. Now.

I know what happened at Barber. Barry wasn&#39;t the problem. The problem was with track management and it was an issue that had to be solved from Topeka.
And the problem with Barber isn&#39;t just an SCCA issue. Barber management has done the exact same thing to PCA and Grand Am. Last I checked Barry wasn&#39;t running either of those groups.

Again, you are spouting off at your keyboard, not at all letting the fact that you have NO CLUE slow you down.
Yes, SCCA is back on speaking terms with Barber, and that unbearable asshole Barry is up front in that effort. What a dick. How DARE he try to repair a relationship with a track that tried to screw our club for $17000 just because the racers really like that track?
What a total dick.

And I&#39;m sure your dilusional ass thinks that I&#39;m only typing this because I&#39;m Barry&#39;s buddy. Yeah, I&#39;m his best friend. We&#39;ve met once when he was handing me a trophy. But since he is such a total dick, maybe that does make me his best friend. After all, I did shake his hand.

I&#39;ll close with this...
Barry often works corners at Road Atlanta and I think he even treks down to Roebling to stand out there and protect our asses (again, what a DICK!). I HOPE, I pray, I BEG, that the next time you actually trek out of Florida for a race you come to Road Atlanta and crash your stupid ass into a wall.
And I hope that the corner worker that pulls your unconscious ass out of that car is Mr. Barry Hair.
And I hope that when you wake up he punches you right in the mouth.

I&#39;m done. Youre a moron.

Mattberg
01-19-2006, 09:00 AM
Whatever version of the story you heard about Barber is certainly one you can believe if you&#39;d like. I&#39;ve heard the same version from numerous people including some in his own region who believe they could be racing there this year. The bottom line is whatever mistakes were made, they should have been able to find a way to get back to that track. There&#39;s lots of other organizations that seem to have no problem. How do you explain that?

SVRA, HSR, Porsche Club, Mustang Club, Chin Motorsports, NESBA, Audi Club, Traquest...just to name a few, all have events there. All organizations smaller than SCCA. They don&#39;t seem to have any problems. Doesn&#39;t it seem odd to you that Alabama region must do their racing at Roebling Road with Barber in their own backyard while numerous out of state racing organizations have multiple events at Barber? What possible reason could there be? And, ask a couple of the visiting regional officials who went to the Barber event how their input with regard to operating procedures was interpreted and if the Alabama officials took their advice. I believe you&#39;ll hear a very different story.

Bottom line is there&#39;s a great track in Brimingham that everyone else in the world has access to EXCEPT the SCCA. I hate to go off topic but maybe this is tied to the issue a little. I was outraged when I first heard the story of the Barber debacle. The $17,000 and all the rest of it seemed outrageous. That was until I heard the WHOLE story. The acts of arrogance, ignorance and overall disdain for recommendations from anyone outside of Alabama region were many. Ignoring proper procedures for inspection and then ignoring recommendations to do so caused a lot of the problems as was explained to me by SEDIV officials. I also don&#39;t think the official who went under a rope at the museum and climbed into Mr. Barber&#39;s personal vintage formula one car helped matters either. :bash_1_: A stupid and arrogant thing to do.

Suffice to say, there&#39;s a lot more to the story, and a lot of finger pointing that went on afterwards. Talk to the Division Executive. I think Fred Schmucker was the top dog at the time and you&#39;ll hear a whole different story than what Barry and the Alabama officials told you. I think Robin Langlotz was at the race as well. The fact that those fences have not been mended is an ongoing matter of both pride and embarrassment. The choice to go to Roebling instead is illogical.

The good news is I hear some of the Alabama members have been working on getting a performance event at Barber and are trying to patch things up with Mr. Barber. I don&#39;t believe Barry is involved. So maybe with a little ass kissing, proper procedures and barring a couple of people from the track, we will be able to go back to racing at Barber. I know I&#39;ll make the trip. :023:

On a personal note, begging and praying for any racer to crash and hit a wall is really crossing the line. You seem to have some violent tendencies. Perhaps that&#39;s what caused your crash and subsequent return to autocrossing only. Maybe an anger management class might help. ;) Reduce the red mist you seem to suffer from.

specialtyautomo
01-19-2006, 09:32 AM
Scott, I am definitely not defending MATTBERG. It was announced at ALSCCA banquete last week that it was ALSCCA and no one else&#39;s decision not to race at Barber. David Leonard spent an entire day at the track and reported back that we were never banned from the track and that they want us there. He did go on to say that it was ALSCCA BOD that made the decision not race there. The track damage bill was reduced to $11,000 from $17,000. ALSCCA did not pay that bill. SCCA national paid it through the insurance. Just facts.


Bobby Bitterman

PS we were also told there would be a race date in 07 at BMP.

Mattberg
01-19-2006, 09:43 AM
I&#39;ve heard the same information Bobby. Thank you for further confirmation. I have also heard that some of the Alabama folks have approached Mr. Barber on their own trying to patch things up and get back on-line starting with a performance event as early as this year as I mentioned before. I think this is an extraordinary effort and applaud those involved. Why the AL BoD nixed racing there is a mystery but I can only assume that the egos and personalities involved carry great weight.

Like I said Scott, there&#39;s much more to the story and I don&#39;t think you&#39;ve been properly informed. Barber is available from everything I&#39;ve researched and heard from officials which makes the choice to go to Roebling puzzling.

Mattberg
01-19-2006, 09:59 AM
Your own RE has basically just published that you are making a huge deal out of nothing. Not only are you making a huge deal out of it, but you are publicly defaming people in the process.
Its unwarranted and you just need to shut your damned mouth. Now.

My RE has not published anything I know of. All I know is that my RE communicated with Butch and told him the BoG of my region is contemplating a split from the division as I predicted. If it was a non-issue I seriously doubt these lengths would be taken.

You really need to get more information Scott instead of just rambling off in character attack. I also have not defamed anyone. I have first hand information from all of the officials present at Barber as it relates to the events that took place. Do you? Or do you just have what Barry told you? I don&#39;t need Bobby to defend me either. Confirming the facts is the important thing. The fact is that Barber wants us and Barry doesn&#39;t want to go back. Interesting. ;) Please tell us why? You seem to have all the answers and I&#39;m delusional. So tell us, please, what&#39;s the deal?

specialtyautomo
01-19-2006, 10:13 AM
[quote]
I&#39;ve heard the same information Bobby. Thank you for further confirmation. I have also heard that some of the Alabama folks have approached Mr. Barber on their own trying to patch things up and get back on-line.


According to David Loenards speech there was nothing to patch up. I will only post facts about this. Alscca needs to be racing at BMP and will bo 07.

Mattberg
01-19-2006, 10:49 AM
That&#39;s good news. I look forward to it. :023:

Butch Kummer
01-19-2006, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Mattberg@Jan 19 2006, 09:59 AM
My RE has not published anything I know of. All I know is that my RE communicated with Butch and told him the BoG of my region is contemplating a split from the division as I predicted. If it was a non-issue I seriously doubt these lengths would be taken.


71235


I really am trying to take the high road here, Matt, but you keep dragging my name back into it.

Check out the CFR website, the RE&#39;s report for January! Assuming you haven&#39;t been kicked out of CFR already, Rick Balderson is YOUR Regional Executive!

It&#39;s true I did see an e-mail addressed to ALL the SEDIV RE&#39;s (from Rick) that said CFR is happy with their racing program as is and IF (that&#39;s a very big I-F) there was any action on the part of SEDIV to reduce the CFR race program then other affiliations would be considered. Atlanta Region would have to consider a similar action IF our race program is arbitrarily reduced as well. Neither of those statements are threats, just statements of fact. There is NO action pending and NO articles of secession are being drawn up because NONE of us (except you and your invisible sources) believe there is a chance in HELL that ANYONE (even Barry!) wants us to cut back our racing program! It is a NON-ISSUE!!!!!

I&#39;m going to try and calm down now. I am not going to respond to anymore of your postings because it&#39;s obviously useless. Do NOT approach me at Jekyll, do NOT introduce yourself and do NOT try to act like we&#39;re on the same side of ANY issues. You can&#39;t miss me - I&#39;m the guy that&#39;s 6&#39;7" and 280 pounds. I haven&#39;t deliberately injured anyone since I got out of prison but I might be willing to make an exception in your case.

I really am through here...

Mattberg
01-19-2006, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Butch Kummer@Jan 19 2006, 02:59 PM
I haven&#39;t deliberately injured anyone since I got out of prison but I might be willing to make an exception in your case.
71240


A physical threat from an official.... pretty funny. We&#39;ll be passing that onto Topeka not to mention bringing it up at Jeckyll. I had respect for you up until that.

Catch22
01-19-2006, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by specialtyautomo@Jan 19 2006, 09:32 AM
Scott, I am definitely not defending MATTBERG. It was announced at ALSCCA banquete last week that it was ALSCCA and no one else&#39;s decision not to race at Barber. David Leonard spent an entire day at the track and reported back that we were never banned from the track and that they want us there. He did go on to say that it was ALSCCA BOD that made the decision not race there. The track damage bill was reduced to $11,000 from $17,000. ALSCCA did not pay that bill. SCCA national paid it through the insurance. Just facts.


Bobby Bitterman

PS we were also told there would be a race date in 07 at BMP.

71231


I never said SCCA was "banned" from the track and I never heard that from anyone else, including Barry.

What I was told was that the damage bill was outrageous (and it was, I was there, there was not remotely $17000 in damage done to that track) and had to be settled in Topeka by legal. So the club and the track, understandably, were not on the best of terms.
This all seems to be the truth.
Imagine that. Barry told the truth.
Man, Go figure.

I know Mattberg made a post up there. I have no idea what it says. I refuse to even read the first line.

JamesB
01-19-2006, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Mattberg@Jan 19 2006, 11:39 AM
A physical threat from an official.... pretty funny. We&#39;ll be passing that onto Topeka not to mention bringing it up at Jeckyll. I had respect for you up until that.

71247



I am amazed you have time to post here. Aren&#39;t you the one that said your way too important to too many people to be involved in the SCCA beyond paying your dues and entry fees?

specialtyautomo
01-19-2006, 11:54 AM
I was there too! In my opinion the majority of the track damage happend Friday in the test-day. Remember how many times the track was shut down for oildowns. Alscca failed to photograph or record the damage post race. That being the case it was hard to determine what damage had been done by who. The track does still have a damage policy and the come to you emidiatly after the incident, not days latter. The track damage policy isn&#39;t that bad. I have had two customers with the BMW club that have paid for their name to be on that walk of fame. Road Atlanta now has a simular damage schedule. It was passed out at the last BMW club race there.


Bobby Bitterman

Anubis
01-19-2006, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Mattberg@Jan 19 2006, 03:39 PM
A physical threat from an official.... pretty funny. We&#39;ll be passing that onto Topeka not to mention bringing it up at Jeckyll. I had respect for you up until that.

71247


Pot...Kettle....black.

charrbq
01-19-2006, 02:58 PM
:023:
Originally posted by Anubis@Jan 19 2006, 05:38 PM
Pot...Kettle....black.

71275

Mattberg!!! I have it on truly reliable sources that you are only a puppet for several people in SEDIV that don&#39;t want to go public with their opinions for fear of "political" reprisal. Is it true what they say that you haven&#39;t had an original thought in the last ten years?

seckerich
01-19-2006, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Mattberg@Jan 19 2006, 09:39 AM
A physical threat from an official.... pretty funny. We&#39;ll be passing that onto Topeka not to mention bringing it up at Jeckyll. I had respect for you up until that.

71247

I just bet that kills Butch not to have YOUR respect--as if anyone here has any for you. I go $50.00 with 20-1 odds on Butch. :happy204: :happy204: :happy204: Look forward to a real report from our ELECTED officals at the meeting.

JeffYoung
01-19-2006, 04:24 PM
Finally! Some useful information.

Truly a chance we will race at Barber in 07? I had a great time there in 04.....

pistonwheels
01-19-2006, 05:18 PM
It&#39;s strange that there&#39;s been so much "concern" about the R.E&#39;s meeting privately when the SARRC committee does the same thing.

Perhaps Matt W. might get on at the SARRC Committee about whatever they may be planning in their meetings. Who knows where their helicopters may land...

Quote from the 2005 SARRC Rules:
"2.5 SARRC Committee meetings shall be restricted to the SARRC Committee representatives or their designated alternatives. Guests may attend with prior approval of the Committee Chairman or Administrator. "

Matt, if you need to know who the SARRC Administrator is, let me know.

Catch22
01-19-2006, 06:45 PM
BTW - Closing or locking this thread will accomplish nothing.

Matt will keep spounting until this weekend, and when nothing happens (and I&#39;ve got 3 REs telling me nothing will happen and was never going to happen) he will start spouting next week about how he single handedly saved the SEDIV with his revolutionary keyboard.

Vive le resistance!!!

Indeed.

Leave it here. Leave it in the archives.
That way people will always be able to look at it and say "Gee, what the hell is wrong with that guy?"

BTW - Interesting info on the SARRC committee. I never noticed that.
Hmmmmm...

Maybe Matt should start using his revolutionary keyboard to make that a democracy!!! I mean, a small group of individuals having closed meetings to decide the future for all us racers???
No way!!!
To the GALLOWS with the SARRC committee!!!
We won&#39;t eat the cake!!!

Scott, who needs to take a shower to wash off the sarcasm.

specialtyautomo
01-19-2006, 07:13 PM
Is there KOOLAID at these secret meeting? B)

Bill Miller
01-24-2006, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by Catch22@Jan 18 2006, 09:38 PM
I HOPE, I pray, I BEG, that the next time you actually trek out of Florida for a race you come to Road Atlanta and crash your stupid ass into a wall.
And I hope that the corner worker that pulls your unconscious ass out of that car is Mr. Barry Hair.
And I hope that when you wake up he punches you right in the mouth.

I&#39;m done. Youre a moron.



Wow, you&#39;d wish that someone crashes their race car, for something they said on the internet? This is a dangerous game we all play, and to wish potential injury or death on someone because of something they said, is beyond the pale. Wonder how you would have felt if someone wished that on your g/f?

What an asshole! :angry:

Catch22
01-24-2006, 11:55 AM
No.

SOME people need to learn that the people they are publicly trashing today are the people that may be saving their lives tomorrow.

Mr. Mattberg is a racer
Mr. Barry Hair is a corner worker
Mr. Mattberg may need Mr. Barry Hair to pull his ass out of a burning car some day.
Mr. Mattberg apparently has never stopped to think about that.

Bill Miller
01-24-2006, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Catch22@Jan 24 2006, 09:55 AM
No.

SOME people need to learn that the people they are publicly trashing today are the people that may be saving their lives tomorrow.

Mr. Mattberg is a racer
Mr. Barry Hair is a corner worker
Mr. Mattberg may need Mr. Barry Hair to pull his ass out of a burning car some day.
Mr. Mattberg apparently has never stopped to think about that.

71870


Scott,

I understand all of that, and I totally agree w/ you. But to wish that someone crashes their car during an event is totally over the top. I don&#39;t care how much of a jackass you think Matt, or anyone else is, to wish that on them is just too much. You really owe Matt, and the rest of the readers of this board, an apology for that comment.

Catch22
01-24-2006, 01:23 PM
I&#39;ll make a deal with you.

I&#39;ll apologize for that comment shortly after Matt apologizes for publicly dragging people and regions through the mud for no good damned reason other than the crazy ones in his head.

I&#39;m pretty positive I won&#39;t have to pay up on that deal.

Doc Bro
01-24-2006, 01:33 PM
It&#39;s not fair......mommy he keeps hitting me.......are we there yet????


Has anyone had enogh yet?.....just put it to bed already!!!

R

Bill Miller
01-24-2006, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Catch22@Jan 24 2006, 11:23 AM
I&#39;ll make a deal with you.

I&#39;ll apologize for that comment shortly after Matt apologizes for publicly dragging people and regions through the mud for no good damned reason other than the crazy ones in his head.

I&#39;m pretty positive I won&#39;t have to pay up on that deal.

71897



That&#39;s really too bad Scott. Why would you operate on the same level as someone that you don&#39;t respect?

Catch22
01-24-2006, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 24 2006, 03:51 PM
That&#39;s really too bad Scott. Why would you operate on the same level as someone that you don&#39;t respect?

71931


Because I see it a bit differently than you do.
Some people bring out the worst in all of us. I&#39;m not ashamed of it and I don&#39;t regret it.

But since absolutely NOTHING happened at the meeting, and not only is the SEDIV going to live to see another day, but regions are actually working together to host events... And Matt has apparently disappeared...
I suppose someone can go ahead and delete this thread now.

Or leave it.
It might be useful to dig it back up the next time some looney pulls their best Chicken Little impersonation.

Joe Harlan
01-24-2006, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Catch22@Jan 24 2006, 01:06 PM

But since absolutely NOTHING happened at the meeting,
71933



Ever give any thought to how it may have come out if not exposed? I don&#39;t agree with Matt&#39;s actions anymore than I would agree that his actions allow anyone to act like people have in response. You all need to look at the message a little more. Racing is getting more and more expensive and part of it caused by poor management of our resources...I do not blame that on volunteer&#39;s, I blame it on everyone of us for being too lazy to help and or pay attention to it. So while Matt may truely be a A-hole I think he has some valid issues at times. too bad he can&#39;t get them out in a more constructive manner.

its66
01-24-2006, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Jan 24 2006, 04:17 PM
Ever give any thought to how it may have come out if not exposed? I don&#39;t agree with Matt&#39;s actions anymore than I would agree that his actions allow anyone to act like people have in response. You all need to look at the message a little more. Racing is getting more and more expensive and part of it caused by poor management of our resources...I do not blame that on volunteer&#39;s, I blame it on everyone of us for being too lazy to help and or pay attention to it. So while Matt may truely be a A-hole I think he has some valid issues at times. too bad he can&#39;t get them out in a more constructive manner.

71934


Very insightful

Butch Kummer
01-24-2006, 05:47 PM
While Matt&#39;s "campaign" may have inspired additional focus, I am convinced the outcome would have been the same regardless. The Fred Clark "proposal" floated at the SEDIV Mid-Year meeting was, from the start, just an idea to spark conversation about possible solutions to a problem encountered by multiple regions. Fred was also at Friday night&#39;s meeting and apologized to all for having initiated the furor by his poor choice of words ("proposal" vs. "idea"). Add in the fact that his "idea" was misunderstood by almost all that read it and the situation got even worse.

Where I lost it was because Matt (and his invisible sources) refused to accept that there was NO proposal to be voted upon and did not allow for the possibility that PERHAPS they may have misunderstood. Throw in his bullying rhetoric, constant ridicule of volunteers and threats of physical abuse topped off by his apparent disregard (or lack of comprehension) of his own RE&#39;s January newsletter article, and I&#39;d finally had enough.

The reason Atlanta Region is working with surrounding regions to conduct the Labor Day events in Nashville is because it&#39;s the right thing to do. Not every region can suddenly acquire 2000 members and the infrastructure to host racing events even if the DO have a facility in the backyard. But Alabama, Chattanooga, TVR and Tennessee have expressed an interest in building interest in racing among their membership while we "control" the Labor Day dates and need their help to put on an event - I believe that&#39;s the definition of a win-win situation. We had already looked into the possibility of running at Nashville (I ran Chattanooga&#39;s Time Trial there last October primarily to see if the facility will work for road racing - it will) and when the Labor Day dates became available last Monday we jumped at the chance. Matt&#39;s tirade(s) had absolutely nothing to do with our regions working together to provide a better program for all SCCA racers.

Yes, we all need to be aware of what&#39;s going on that affects our sport. Lord knows there are enough personality differences/clashes that can sometimes appear to inhibit progress, but we also need to have respect for those who volunteer their time and energies to help make it all happen. Everyone won&#39;t be happy with every decision that&#39;s made, but at least try to understand WHY the decision was made the way it was.

Now that I&#39;ve found this board I&#39;ll use it to improve Atlanta Region&#39;s racing program. We&#39;ve already tossed around ideas for the 2006 Pro-IT series and I think it&#39;ll be better because of the changes we&#39;ve made. I also became aware of a concern about running our ECR&#39;s first thing Sunday morning, so we&#39;ll be looking at that for July (I&#39;ll post a separate thread for that).

As far as Mr. Weisberg, I now know what he is and will react accordingly in the future. If he&#39;s indeed joined the Stewards program as rumored (yet to be confirmed), then perhaps he&#39;ll gain a better understanding as to how much work actually goes into making a race weekend happen and display a bit more respect for those who work together so (us) racers can play. Then again, maybe he won&#39;t. Doesn&#39;t matter either way...

Butch K[r]ummer

specialtyautomo
01-24-2006, 06:19 PM
OUTSTANDING Butch. Those are the kind of things that need to happen. We can never have too much information.


Thanks Bobby Bitterman

Catch22
01-24-2006, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Jan 24 2006, 04:17 PM
Ever give any thought to how it may have come out if not exposed?
71934


No.
None at all.
Zero.

Why?
Because when I asked those who know (REs, stewarts, etc.) what the deal was, they all said exactly what Butch noted above. This is not new insight, its info thats been public for months.
Yet... Matt kept hammering.
The more people tried to explain to him that he was railing against nothing, the louder he got. He called people names, made threats, and made disparaging remarks about regions and their leadership.
He did all of this FOR NOTHING!

It was nothing. It never was anything.
Butch&#39;s post above sheds no light that hasn&#39;t already been shed, long ago.

So please don&#39;t lend any credit to Matt at all. He helped nothing, he exposed nothing, he changed nothing. Don&#39;t encourage him to ever behave this way again.

Joe Harlan
01-24-2006, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by Catch22@Jan 24 2006, 03:33 PM
No.
None at all.
Zero.

Why?
Because when I asked those who know (REs, stewarts, etc.) what the deal was, they all said exactly what Butch noted above. This is not new insight, its info thats been public for months.
Yet... Matt kept hammering.
The more people tried to explain to him that he was railing against nothing, the louder he got. He called people names, made threats, and made disparaging remarks about regions and their leadership.
He did all of this FOR NOTHING!

It was nothing. It never was anything.
Butch&#39;s post above sheds no light that hasn&#39;t already been shed, long ago.

So please don&#39;t lend any credit to Matt at all. He helped nothing, he exposed nothing, he changed nothing. Don&#39;t encourage him to ever behave this way again.

71958
Well I guess we will agree to disagree cause you looked at one side of the issue and were just as satisfied nothing was going on. I believe some other credible people besides Matt posted on this issue also stating that there were problems. As someone that gets branded a trouble maker more than he should I can tell you that things are not always as rosey as spome would have you believe and that even in a club such as this some folks are not beyond pushing their own agenda. I have been amember of many clubs in all my years and have seen power struggles in about all of them. I have also seen dishonesty and and flat out theft because members were to lazy to pay attention until it was to late. I don&#39;t offer any of this to lend credibilty to Matt, I offer so you all might just take a moment and think before you shoot that things like this have happened in the past and they can just as easy happen again if your not paying attention. Matt has uncovered bad stuff before and likely will again. My only hope is that one day he will learn how to present it without causing such a stir.

Catch22
01-24-2006, 08:25 PM
I hear what you are saying.

But here&#39;s my point...
People that are typically not known to be "self serving agenda pushers" have also posted over the past couple of months that this whole thing is a red herring. I&#39;ve talked to others in person (you know, we can still do such things, slinging poop on the web is now the preferred method of communication, but I&#39;m pretty sure folks that can afford race cars and the internet still have phones :unsure: ), and consistently heard the same thing...
"Its a non-issue."

I choose to listen to those people. People like Matt choose to keep on slinging the fecal mud, regardless of what they see or hear and regardless of who says it.

Multiple REs
His OWN RE...
All basically said "Look, this idea was brought up but nothing is going to happen."
It was a non-issue before.
Its a non-issue now.
It was a non-issue all along.

Nothing Matt did or said changed a damned thing.

The only thing Matt managed to do is slander. Thats all.
If that was his goal, well here is his trophy for a job well done: :smilie_pokal:

wbp
01-24-2006, 08:44 PM
Joe, if you knew Barry Hair personally, as so many of us here do, you would know how hard he works for SCCA racing. (He estimates 300 days per year handling some SCCA chore.) Then you would understand how we knew from the start that there was nothing to the accusations. Much smoke, but no fire.
As one who knows most of the Regional Execs. in the SEDIV (they are directors of SEDIV, Inc.) I had a high level of confidence that no ill advised idea would go far with them. Smart, hard working, dedicated people.

Drew Aldred
01-24-2006, 10:56 PM
I&#39;m glad this all got worked out in the end, but also remember alot of this got rolling when the SEDIV leaders denied that any such "idea, proposal, or spitballing" even existed. The truth about this idea would have sprayed alot of disenfectant on the whole issue.

I agree with Joe, you may not like Matt&#39;s approach but then don&#39;t take his word for what&#39;s happening either. Ask the people in charge and find out for yourself.

Joe Harlan
01-24-2006, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by wbp@Jan 24 2006, 05:44 PM
Joe, if you knew Barry Hair personally, as so many of us here do, you would know how hard he works for SCCA racing. (He estimates 300 days per year handling some SCCA chore.) Then you would understand how we knew from the start that there was nothing to the accusations. Much smoke, but no fire.
As one who knows most of the Regional Execs. in the SEDIV (they are directors of SEDIV, Inc.) I had a high level of confidence that no ill advised idea would go far with them. Smart, hard working, dedicated people.

71972

Bill, I get what your saying but understand I have seen good people do wrong things before. That statement incudes Matt. am a complete outsider here but looking in I still believe there are several sides to this story and that the exposure itself was likely a good thing. The method of exposure and the counter attack was just wrong... on all sides.

charrbq
01-24-2006, 11:59 PM
I find it interesting that this thread started in General Discussions, where it was begged that it be moved to this area repeatedly. After continued assaults, threats, and profanity by several of us, it was finally shut down only to resurface with almost all of the viciousness, name calling and accusations.

Several of us have really shown our asses.

Now that the forum has come full circle, several of us are continuing with the assaults of various intensity on one another. But the instigator of the screaming and chest pounding hasn&#39;t been heard from since before last weekend.

Did he expose a conspiracy, as he proclaimed, or did he manage to reduce us to his level.

Catch22
01-25-2006, 04:27 PM
I disagree with your assessment Chris.

Nobody is fighting or name calling now. What we are doing is discussing what happened, why, and should it have ever happened in the first place.

Thats good stuff. Its valuable and its how we learn and get things done.

As far as showing our asses, I&#39;m fine with showing mine. But I never do it until someone else shows theirs first.
Does that make it "right" or "OK?" I dunno. I guess that depends on who you ask.
But I&#39;m perfectly comfortable with everything I&#39;ve typed on this matter. No regrets at all.
I&#39;m one of those mean monkeys that will pick up your poo and sling it right back at you. B)

"The growth of knowledge depends entirely upon disagreement." - Karl Popper, Philosopher.

Mattberg
02-05-2006, 11:14 AM
A poop throwing monkey. Good description. :happy204:

Catch22
02-06-2006, 12:01 AM
Excellent.
Matt&#39;s back.

If you are finished with Barry, maybe you can publicly slander me now for no good damned reason. I mean, you&#39;ve already demonstrated that you are good at it.
Everyone is good at something... Right?
:cavallo:

Joe Harlan
02-06-2006, 12:32 AM
Excellent.
Matt&#39;s back.

If you are finished with Barry, maybe you can publicly slander me now for no good damned reason. I mean, you&#39;ve already demonstrated that you are good at it.
Everyone is good at something... Right?
:cavallo:
[/b]

You know if you would just shut the hell up and not respond it wouldn&#39;t have to get started again.

Mattberg
02-06-2006, 03:24 AM
Just a monkey throwing poop Joe. :P

Catch22
02-06-2006, 10:36 AM
You know if you would just shut the hell up and not respond it wouldn&#39;t have to get started again.
[/b]

1. I could same the same to you.
2. The thread was dead, HE started it back up.
3. And he somehow manages to call me the poop thrower. If he&#39;ll read my post he&#39;s responding to slowly and carefully (yeah, we know he isn&#39;t good at that, but maybe with some practice and some positive reinforcement he&#39;ll get better) he&#39;ll see that what I said was I throw the poop BACK at you. You know, just like right now. :cavallo:
4. Yep, Matt learned a whole lot from the whole Jekyll thing. He&#39;s still not letting what people are actually saying or writing interfere with his responses. Status Quo. :018:

imported_Webmaster
02-06-2006, 08:43 PM
Closed due to majority vote and my disinterest in babysitting any further.