Opinions of 280ZX

[alexands]

I've been wanting to build an ITS car for several years now. I've considered almost all RWD cars that are ITS leagal and keep coming back to the 280ZX. Other ITS "candidate" cars I've owned include Porsche 944's (turbo, so not real ITS), Nissan 240SX, Nissan 280ZX, 300ZX, and 2 Honda Preludes. I just love the 280ZX and the L28 engine. Maybe it's a character flaw I have :D. I know the ZX fairly well so working on it and building it won't be a problem.

So, my question is, do these make good ITS cars? I realize a nice coil-over suspension is not so readily available, so that may be a draw back. What else is there I should consider before heading down this trail? I'm a n00b so running up front is not my immediate goal. Just want to have some fun, be safe, learn the skill of racing, and not break the bank.

Thanks,
Scott

[MMiskoe]

I don't know much about the 280's (or older), but I do konw that the 280ZX got rear disks over the drums that the "Z" had. But, it also had a noticiable drop in power output. Not why, but as a result I think you will find the 280Z has a better power to weight ratio. I think the early 240's that don't have the big bumpers have the best pwer to weight ratio & the rest of the suspension is pretty much the same throughout the 240-260-280 series until the ZX came along.

If you're not trying to break the bank, you'll find that since no one races a ZX you're on your own for many thing which makes it expensive. You could buy a Z that's built much easier. (and I would say that even if I didn't have one for sale)

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by alexands@Dec 11 2005, 07:32 PM
I've been wanting to build an ITS car for several years now. I've considered almost all RWD cars that are ITS leagal and keep coming back to the 280ZX. Other ITS "candidate" cars I've owned include Porsche 944's (turbo, so not real ITS), Nissan 240SX, Nissan 280ZX, 300ZX, and 2 Honda Preludes. I just love the 280ZX and the L28 engine. Maybe it's a character flaw I have :D. I know the ZX fairly well so working on it and building it won't be a problem.

So, my question is, do these make good ITS cars? I realize a nice coil-over suspension is not so readily available, so that may be a draw back. What else is there I should consider before heading down this trail? I'm a n00b so running up front is not my immediate goal. Just want to have some fun, be safe, learn the skill of racing, and not break the bank.

Thanks,
Scott

67901

Scott, I have worked on a ZX ITS car years ago and it was adecent car at that time. I believe with a weight adjustment on the car it could be a very good car. The injection is good th power ratings are a little of due to a couple of things but don't be fooled these can make good power if done correctly. Not pimping any prep work but I can build coilover stuff and recommend springs and bar packages ect. Don't shy away from these if you like them i think it is a car that has just never been played with.

[x-ring]

This reminds me of a quote I heard a while back about the 300zx in ITS, I wish I could remember who supposedly said it: You can't make a race car out of a pig, but you can make a damn fast pig.

Now if, as Joe said, it got a weight break, it and the S30 280Z, they might be viable choices.

JMHO

[JeffYoung]

Jay Miller in the SEDiv raced one for years -- totalled by some guy at Roebling last spring. Fast car in a straight line. Jay had some brake issues like I do at some of the tighter tracks, but I agree, it can be a damn good car with a bit of a weight break.

[kthomas]

I believe Jay's car was a 280Z, not a 280ZX.

Drum brakes on the 240/260/280Z are not a disadvantage once you learn how to keep them adjusted during the course of a race.

Fuel injection is a wonderful thing, however, you will be severly limited by the throttle body and intake manifold and despite your additional 26 cubic inches you will not be able to compete with a proper 240Z in a straight line or around a curve.

I'd love to see one, mind you, but IMHO losing sux.

[Dave Burchfield]

There used to be a 280zx in CenDiv that was a constant front runner. The last owner was Rich Boening, who has been racing a Civic in SSC for a number of years. I have the engine out of that car........looking for a suitable platform for it.

db

[SWSpiers]

Guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but the 280ZX uses the same type trailing arm rear suspension as the later 300ZX. This means you'd be fighting squat and tire wear issues like those guys do. And, they have a more modern V6, so I'd bet torque would be greater to help overcome all that squat scrub.

I think Keith's right - 240Z, or possibly later Z like a 300 if you want something newer.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by SWSpiers@Dec 17 2005, 11:47 PM
Guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but the 280ZX uses the same type trailing arm rear suspension as the later 300ZX. This means you'd be fighting squat and tire wear issues like those guys do. And, they have a more modern V6, so I'd bet torque would be greater to help overcome all that squat scrub.

I think Keith's right - 240Z, or possibly later Z like a 300 if you want something newer.

68620



Your correct about the trailing arm deal but we got ahold of that pretty quick on the one that was running out here for a bit. If I were gonna do a car from scratch I would do a Z31 300zx with a V\6 in a heartbeat...

[JeffYoung]

K, I guess you are right because I know he had drums, so then it must be a 280z right?

Ty, that quote is I think from Grayson Upchurch -- there is a comparision article out there on the net comparing a 240z v. a 300zx ITS car. Great article, still findable via google I think. I believe one of the other drivers was John Williams. Not sure about the others.

[bobpink]

Originally posted by JeffYoung@Dec 27 2005, 04:24 AM
Ty, that quote is I think from Grayson Upchurch -- there is a comparision article out there on the net comparing a 240z v. a 300zx ITS car. Great article, still findable via google I think. I believe one of the other drivers was John Williams. Not sure about the others.

69255


The quote was actually from kthomas his ownself when I quoted him for this article I wrote for GRM way back in 1995 already. The quote has been attributed to many people and I think the originator was Bob Akin.

Article can be found here: http://www.georgiazclub.com/tips/ztech/zvsz/zvsz.htm

The drivers who took part in the article were Grayson Upchurch, Jr., John Williams, Paul Reckert and Tom Horan. Other major contributors to the article were Keith Thomas, Eddie Radatz and Steve McCarley. I considered myself very fortunate to get these folks to contribute who were among the best of the best in SeDiv. Was also very grateful to get the drivers to take a weekday off of work to bring their cars to Road Atlanta. I know it doesn't take much to get drivers to play on a racetrack, but it was pretty darn cold the day we did the comparison and a couple of the guys called in "sick" from work.

Not sure if the car Williams is driving today is the one used in the article (thought it was totalled along the way) and the 300ZX is currently wasting away in the parking lot of E. Radatz Motorsports.

As far as a 280ZX, Ken Bonneau raced one in CenDiv. If anyone was really interested in doing up a 280ZX for ITS, there is a perfect candidate sitting in the parking lot of E. Radatz Motorsports...no T-tops or power anything. The car to build.

[JeffYoung]

Bob, didn't know you wrote that. Great article, one of the things that turned me on to IT racing.

Here it is by the way:

http://www.georgiazclub.com/tips/ztech/zvsz/zvsz.htm

One of the best reads on what ITS cars are like. Interesting that what seemed so apparent at the time -- that the 240z was on the decline, to be replaced by the suprisingly quick 300zx -- didn't really pan out. Not because of anything Bob could have been aware of at the time, just that a certain German sedan showed up a few years later and made pretty much everyone else a second class citizen.

[bobpink]

Originally posted by JeffYoung@Dec 27 2005, 05:21 PM
One of the best reads on what ITS cars are like. Interesting that what seemed so apparent at the time -- that the 240z was on the decline, to be replaced by the suprisingly quick 300zx -- didn't really pan out. Not because of anything Bob could have been aware of at the time, just that a certain German sedan showed up a few years later and made pretty much everyone else a second class citizen.


Kind of missed on the 240Z decline part, but the emergence of the ERM 300ZX and SpeedSource Mazdas sure made it look like it at the time. Once Reckert retired from driving, his crewchief, Keith Thomas, switched over to this Wittel guy and they extended the run of the 240Z for a good long time. Every time they won my thoughts always went back to the article ...

[Dave Burchfield]

I remember Ken's car well. Drove against it at Mid-Ohio and Putnam Park. IIRC the rear suspension broke a number of times after Rich bought the car, and it was finally stripped and the tub scrapped. It really is too bad because the car was fast!

Great article Bob........thank you for sharing that!

[lateapex911]

Remember guys....don't make cast in stone judgements on whats competitive in what class until the ITAC proposal hits the Fastrack...or is shot down.....

Word has it that next months Fastrack might be of interest, but nothing is certain yet.

[Ron Earp]

Not that it means anything from a crazy nut, but the two cars I'd like to build for ITS right now are a 280Z and a 300Z. I think both cars, with the right development, could do very well. I'd be a lot of fun I think to fit a megasquirt up to the Z system and doable I think since megasquirt can now learn OEM sensors with little difficulty. Rear discs would be nice just to eliminate fooling with the drums, and I agree with some others here that the little guy can make some power. Buddy up ours has a 280 that is a perfect candidate except for one thing - it is the dreaded 2+2 model!

R

[alexands]

Thanks for posting the GRM article of the 240Z vs. 300ZX. I was actually looking for that today on the GRM site and couldn't find it. Low and behold, I look here in the thread I started and there it is.

As much as I like the 280ZX I'm starting to think more about other Nissans. One of my criteria is what I call "scalability". I'd like to start racing with a slower car and eventually increase it's power as I become a better, more confident (and RICHER!!) driver. The increase in power would, more than likely, come from turbos. So, with regard to that, I'm thinking about doing a Z32 300ZX in N/A trim for ITE or doing a 240SX for ITS. Eventually I'd do some turbo mods to either of these and run them in SP. Of course, the Z31 is tempting as well. The scalability of that may not be very good, but it seems there are more and more of them showing up at the tracks in the Southwest. The 240SX (DOHC) may not be very competitive in ITS so I'm not sure if it would be fun to race and not many folks run int ITE in the Southwest.

I pose this question to the more experienced folks. What would you do? I want a Nissam platform I can grow. I like to twist wrenches, and I want someone to race with and don't want to be the only car in the class on the track.

TIA

[murphyd]

Don't write off the 240sx as not being competitive in ITS. Chris Newberry has a fast 95 240sx for sale as we speak (maybe). He has been competitive pretty much anywhere he goes. We have a 95 240sx also, with very little development , and the car has shown to be a great platform for ITS. Granted, we're not setting the world on fire, but there's alot more car than this driver is using. It all goes back to your interpretation of competitve. Will a maxed out (for lack of a better word) 240sx beat a maxed out E36 BMW with all other variables being equal? I don't think so, but I don't think any other ITS car will do that either as things stand in ITS right now. If you're looking for a good car to develop for ITS with the thought of adding things later that you have mentioned (like turbos) I think the 240 sx is good choice. There is lots of info about the cars especially if you're looking to modify beyond IT rules. Plus it's not a bad ITS car either. As K. Thomas said "Losing sucks", but sitting on the sidelines watching others play "Swallows"!

There are a few pics of our car on our website www.murphymotorsports.net if you're interested.

Again, this is just my 2 cents and it's probably worth less than that!

[JeffYoung]

David's 240 is clean, well-prepped and plenty fast, don't let him fool you.

Newberry's car is fast-fast. The best ITS race I witnessed was at CMP last year. Newberry in a 240, Steve Stubbs in a 325 and Kent Thompson in an RX7. Nose to tail the whole race, 1-2-3, and swapping positions. Newberry had fast lap but didn't win.

Like David M. said, the 240 can't beat a fully prepped BMW on a power track like VIR or RA, but not sure what can. On a momentum/handling track like CMP or Roebling, it can.

[rob22]

The 240sx can be a competitive platform when properly developed and set up. Our 1991 240sx built by Mike Covello back in 1996 still runs top 5 on many occassions in Central Florida Region. Squeak Kennedy drove it to a 3rd at Daytona in September with a best lap of 2:19, possibly the best ever by a Nissan.

Squeak was 2nd at sebring in the fall of 04 on the short course with a 1:20 flat

Mike and I have had several top fives at sebring and Moroso in the past couple of years despite this being a budget racer.

Mike Covello (former service mgr. at Nissan of Daytona) now at Crane Cams has a handle on what it takes to make these cars quick. He feels with some more dough and time he can make car quicker still.

Bosco

[SWSpiers]

If you really want to be competitive, build an 1989-1990 240SX for ITA. Then if you want to upgrade to EP, you strip and build the chassis and pump up the motor. If you want more, like turbos, bolt in the SR20DET. I have a 240SX ITS car and although it might be competitive somewhere, it won't run 1:39 flat at Road Atlanta like the BMWs. In fact, I think Chris' car has done a best of 1:43?

Steve

[latebrake]

Originally posted by rlearp@Dec 28 2005, 10:33 PM
Not that it means anything from a crazy nut, but the two cars I'd like to build for ITS right now are a 280Z and a 300Z. I think both cars, with the right development, could do very well. I'd be a lot of fun I think to fit a megasquirt up to the Z system and doable I think since megasquirt can now learn OEM sensors with little difficulty. Rear discs would be nice just to eliminate fooling with the drums, and I agree with some others here that the little guy can make some power. Buddy up ours has a 280 that is a perfect candidate except for one thing - it is the dreaded 2+2 model!

R

69426


Bob Sharpe and Paul Newman ran the 2+2 somewhere. Dont know if it was a single race or they took it all around for a season or less. Supposed to be more stabe in a long line________ Not sure if its good or bad.

Lawrence

[DavidM]

Chris Newberry's car is very nice and well prepared. One of the nicest looking cars out there. He's a good driver as well so he gets the most out of it. I checked and he did a 1:42.5 in qualifying for the ARRC enduro. I don't know if he's gone faster than that. He had his car for sale and you may want to consider buying it if you want an ITS car. I don't know if he's sold it, but you could look him up and ask.

David

[Ron Earp]

Chris 240 is very nice. I've watched him run a number of times and I really like the car - if I was in the market and coming at this now, instead of 1.5 years ago, I'd go this route. Everytime I see one on the road now I think "there's a race car".

[slickS14]

Hey guys, thanks for the compliments (Jeff,Ron, David,DavidM) on my 240sx. My car is still for sale if any interest, just time to take a break. I have done a 1.41.9 at Road Atlanta in a test day for the record but still no 1.39.0! These cars are competitive and reliable and MUCH cheaper than a BMW or Speedsource RX7. Steven Spiers has a good point though if you want to go to E Prod later build the early S13 chassis but I suppose you could always request classification of the newer model S14. Happy New Year to all and I guess I'll see some of you at Road Atlanta at the end of February...even if my car is sold! Chris Newberry 404-314-5042