Is this an ITB car?

[bbreon]

So, where do we think the 2002 Mini Cooper (not S) will be classed when able to? 5 years after production would be 2007, correct?

Too bad it will cost a fortune to find a donor car though.

Here are the specs

Length: 142.8 in. Width: 66.5 in.
Height: 55.9 in. Wheel Base: 97.1 in.
Curb Weight: 2315 lbs. Gross Weight: 3263 lbs.
Interior
Front Head Room: 38.8 in. Front Shoulder Room: 50.9 in.
Rear Head Room: 37.6 in. Rear Shoulder Room: 44.7 in.
Front Leg Room: 41.3 in. Rear Leg Room: 31.3 in.
Luggage Capacity: 5.3 cu. ft. Maximum Cargo Capacity: 25 cu. ft.
Maximum Seating: 4

Performance Data

Performance
Acceleration (0-60 mph): 8.5 sec. Base Number of Cylinders: 4
Base Engine Size: 1.6 liters Base Engine Type: Inline 4
Horsepower: 115 hp Max Horsepower: 6000 rpm
Torque: 110 ft-lbs. Max Torque: 4500 rpm
Drive Type: FWD Turning Circle: 34.9 ft.

[RSTPerformance]

Looks like a good fit for a "new car" that would spice up the class a bit. I think the class is great with all the different potentially winning cars and adding a new car with the potential to win will only help the class out!!!

Raymond

[Bill Miller]

Stock power specs are pretty much the same as a Golf/Jetta III 2.0

[bbreon]

Looks to be about 12 ftlbs less on torque than the Golf III but also about 200lbs lighter. Depends on what the SCCA thinks the competition weight should be.

Am I correct that it is eligible for classing for 2007, right?

[Marcus Miller]

The specs resemble a first gen Rx7 to me...


Marcus

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Marcus Miller@Dec 11 2005, 07:04 PM
The specs resemble a first gen Rx7 to me...
Marcus

67882



A 1st gen RX7 makes 110 lb-ft of torque??? :blink: :lol: B)

[Knestis]

I think that's a B car - and one I wouldn't mind at all racing against.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

ITB at 2450ish? Hmmm....

AB

[Marcus Miller]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 11 2005, 04:20 PM
A 1st gen RX7 makes 110 lb-ft of torque??? :blink: :lol: B)

67885


Sure, with the Turbo that we keep hidden :023:

Marcus

[bbreon]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 11 2005, 07:47 PM
ITB at 2450ish? Hmmm....

AB

67890



I was thinking more like 2200!

[Knestis]

Nah - make it the same weight as the Golf. :D

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by bbreon@Dec 12 2005, 07:38 AM
I was thinking more like 2200!

67940

Based on what?

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 11 2005, 11:47 PM
ITB at 2450ish? Hmmm....

AB

67890


I'm with Andy... Right around 2450lbs for ITB...

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Knestis@Dec 12 2005, 09:46 AM
Nah - make it the same weight as the Golf. :D

K

67941



Careful what you ask for Kirk. B)

[gran racing]

Nah - make it the same weight as the Golf.

I couldn't have said it any better myself! :happy204:

I've raced with a SSC Mini on several occasions at LRP and the Glen when my car had an old stock engine, fairly basic exhaust, air intake, race suspension. While this may be a somewhat crude comparison, the two cars were a good match. Based on that and the specs above, seems like it would be a good fit at 2,450.

2,200? Ha!!! Now that's all fine and dandy as long as the other ITB cars get a 250 lb weight brake.

[ddewhurst]

I need some help folks.

Mini is 115 hp @ 6,000 rpm & 110 ft. lb. torque @ 4,500 in ITB @ 450ish lb.

RX-7 101 hp @ 6,000 rpm & 107 ft. lb. torque @ 4,000 in ITB @ 2600 lb IIRC.

I understand there are other components to the recipe but because the receipe is secret how dose a 1st gen RX-7 compete with a car with 14% more hp & 3% more torque with 150ish pounds less weight ?

For a second question I truly would like to know why the receipe SHALL remain secret.

(I could also presume the Mini has a fule management system & FI)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by ddewhurst@Dec 12 2005, 08:43 AM
I need some help folks.

Mini is 115 hp @ 6,000 rpm & 110 ft. lb. torque @ 4,500 in ITB @ 450ish lb.

RX-7 101 hp @ 6,000 rpm & 107 ft. lb. torque @ 4,000 in ITB @ 2600 lb IIRC.

I understand there are other components to the recipe but because the receipe is secret how dose a 1st gen RX-7 compete with a car with 14% more hp & 3% more torque with 150ish pounds less weight ?

For a second question I truly would like to know why the receipe SHALL remain secret.

(I could also presume the Mini has a fule management system & FI)

67959


Let's not hijack this thing too much...

David, it ain't all about stock power, it's about power in IT prep. What is a top ITA RX-7 making these days? And remember, we have a owner/driver in the committee, so we already know...just tell the rest of the BB and you will have your answer.

AB

[bbreon]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 12 2005, 10:12 AM
Based on what?

67947



1993 Volkswagon Golf III specs

Exterior
Length: 160.5 in. Width: 66.7 in.
Height: 56.2 in. Wheel Base: 97.4 in.
Curb Weight: 2577 lbs.

Performance
Base Number of Cylinders: 4 Base Engine Size: 2 liters
Base Engine Type: Inline 4 Horsepower: 115 hp
Max Horsepower: 5400 rpm Torque: 122 ft-lbs.
Max Torque: 3200 rpm Drive Type: FWD
Turning Circle: 32.6 ft.

2002 Mini Cooper Specs

Length: 142.8 in. Width: 66.5 in.
Height: 55.9 in. Wheel Base: 97.1 in.
Curb Weight: 2315 lbs. Gross Weight: 3263 lbs.

Performance
Base Number of Cylinders: 4
Base Engine Size: 1.6 liters Base Engine Type: Inline 4
Horsepower: 115 hp Max Horsepower: 6000 rpm
Torque: 110 ft-lbs. Max Torque: 4500 rpm
Drive Type: FWD Turning Circle: 34.9 ft.


My thinking was a Golf III curb weight is 2577 and unless I am looking at something wrong shows a race weight of 2350, a 227 lb reduction. With the Cooper being down on Torque by 12 lbs, a smaller engine (1.6 vs 2.0) and a curb weith of 2315, 2200 was my off the cuff suggestion.

Do you believe the Cooper to be a car where the performance of the parts may be greater than the sum of the parts?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by bbreon@Dec 12 2005, 12:51 PM
1993 Volkswagon Golf III specs

Exterior
Length: 160.5 in. Width: 66.7 in.
Height: 56.2 in. Wheel Base: 97.4 in.
Curb Weight: 2577 lbs.

Performance
Base Number of Cylinders: 4 Base Engine Size: 2 liters
Base Engine Type: Inline 4 Horsepower: 115 hp
Max Horsepower: 5400 rpm Torque: 122 ft-lbs.
Max Torque: 3200 rpm Drive Type: FWD
Turning Circle: 32.6 ft.

2002 Mini Cooper Specs

Length: 142.8 in. Width: 66.5 in.
Height: 55.9 in. Wheel Base: 97.1 in.
Curb Weight: 2315 lbs. Gross Weight: 3263 lbs.

Performance
Base Number of Cylinders: 4
Base Engine Size: 1.6 liters Base Engine Type: Inline 4
Horsepower: 115 hp Max Horsepower: 6000 rpm
Torque: 110 ft-lbs. Max Torque: 4500 rpm
Drive Type: FWD Turning Circle: 34.9 ft.
My thinking was a Golf III curb weight is 2577 and unless I am looking at something wrong shows a race weight of 2350, a 227 lb reduction. With the Cooper being down on Torque by 12 lbs, a smaller engine (1.6 vs 2.0) and a curb weith of 2315, 2200 was my off the cuff suggestion.

Do you believe the Cooper to be a car where the performance of the parts may be greater than the sum of the parts?

68006


Curb weight has nothing to do with race weight in IT - other than a quick measuring stick to make sure cars could be able to get DOWN to minimum.

Why not compare it to the 1987 Prelude Si at 110hp in ITB at 2450?

Oh, ya...HUGE brakes compared to both cars...lots of factors to consider.

AB

[zracre]

Isn't the Prelude carbureted?? I say 2315# ...no more than 2400 or it would be a slug. what are the rabbit gti specs?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by zracre@Dec 12 2005, 01:50 PM
Isn't the Prelude carbureted?? I say 2315# ...no more than 2400 or it would be a slug. what are the rabbit gti specs?

68010


I don't think so...my 1986 Civic Si beater has EFI...

AB

[gran racing]

First to answer the Prelude question. The non-si ’86 & ’87 version was carbed. Both the ’86 & ’87 Prelude si has fuel injection.


Why not compare it to the 1987 Prelude Si at 110hp in ITB at 2450?

Oh, ya...HUGE brakes compared to both cars...lots of factors to consider.

In my opinion, the Golf is a bit too light at its current weight. And no, I’m not just comparing it to the Prelude but other benchmark ITB cars.

The Prelude: 207 front (vented disk) and 208 rear (solid disk)

The Golf III: 257 front (vented disk) and 227 rear

What size brakes does the Mini have?

[Knestis]

But Accords took top ITB places at the ARRC!

Oh, wait. Never mind. ;)

K

PS - the ARRC-winning car is for sale for $8000. That seems like a pretty damned good deal right now, since I spent yesterday cutting the passenger side floor out of the "new" Golf shell. Barf.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by gran racing@Dec 12 2005, 02:44 PM

In my opinion, the Golf is a bit too light at its current weight. And no, I’m not just comparing it to the Prelude but other benchmark ITB cars.

The Prelude: 207 front (vented disk) and 208 rear (solid disk)

The Golf III: 257 front (vented disk) and 227 rear

What size brakes does the Mini have?

68016


Mini Cooper: 276mm front Vented and 239 rear solid ! ! !

[ddewhurst]

***Let's not hijack this thing too much...***

Andy, why the ^ comment. I asked a couple real questions for which you answered neither. To my humble knowledge the RX-7 12A legal rwhp is give or take a bit @ 125.

If I am wrong with the 125 rwhp please enlighten me as to your real numbers.

What is the IT preped Mini rwhp ?

Why is the recipe a secret ?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by ddewhurst@Dec 12 2005, 06:15 PM
***Let's not hijack this thing too much...***

Andy, why the ^ comment. I asked a couple real questions for which you answered neither. To my humble knowledge the RX-7 12A legal rwhp is give or take a bit @ 125.

If I am wrong with the 125 rwhp please enlighten me as to your real numbers.

What is the IT preped Mini rwhp ?

Why is the recipe a secret ?

68039


The RX-7 would be one of the most powerful cars in ITB @ between 125 and 130whp. That about 150-155 crank hp.

Estimates on the Mini would have it at around 140...so with a 10-15whp advantage, the RX-7 should have to weigh more, everything else being equal. Both cars have their weeknesses in the suspension area.

The 'recipe' isn't secret. We have shown example after example on this site for a while now. It's a process that is very dynamic, not so much a formula.

What I do know for a fact is the Mini's RWHP numbers in IT prep...zero. :P

AB

[Bill Miller]

Andy,

I'm not a rotary guy, but those kinds of gains seem pretty big, for IT prep. Assuming 115hp on a stock 12A, you're saying that you can get 35-40hp w/ IT prep? That's a 30-35% gain w/ IT prep. I didn't know you could squeeze that much out of one. I'm also surprised that w/ sooooo many of these cars around, why there isn't quite a bit of actual data out there, so that you don't have to speculate as to how much power a 12A w/ IT prep makes.


It's a process that is very dynamic, not so much a formula.



Why did I get an icky feeling when I read that??

[Dave Zaslow]

I love the idea of the base Mini being added to ITB. Since there are some now running in the Northeast in EP, perhaps someone can get some info from their efforts on what can be expected in IT trim.

Dave Z

Who also had to piece together the floorpan in a Golf III....

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 13 2005, 03:26 AM
Andy,

I'm not a rotary guy, but those kinds of gains seem pretty big, for IT prep. Assuming 115hp on a stock 12A, you're saying that you can get 35-40hp w/ IT prep? That's a 30-35% gain w/ IT prep. I didn't know you could squeeze that much out of one. I'm also surprised that w/ sooooo many of these cars around, why there isn't quite a bit of actual data out there, so that you don't have to speculate as to how much power a 12A w/ IT prep makes.
Why did I get an icky feeling when I read that??

68072


Bill, the killer is that the car makes 101hp stock. We have actual data. Jake can step in and help out. Maybe even Rickey, should he care to share his numbers. The reason I have a range is because there needs to be some slop...

The dynamic part of the process, as you know, is the 'adders' piece. Not the same for everyone - but a piece that take into account the intangibles like aero, brake sizes, drivetrain layout, suspension design, etc.

AB

[Bill Miller]

Wow Andy, 50%+ hp increase w/ an IT prep???? I know those things really respond to porting, but none of that's allowed in IT (and I can see why, if you can get that much extra hp w/o it). But, from what I know, the hp numbers are in line w/ what the Volvos are making (granted, w/o anywhere near the torque). Not to mention that the Volvos have HUGE brakes.


And I know the adders part varies by car, but it was just the way it sounded.

[ddewhurst]

***What I do know for a fact is the Mini's RWHP numbers in IT prep...zero.***

Andy, I agree with you on the ^ comment. <_<

155 crank HP vrs 101 OEM crank HP. That would be a 54% crank HP gain. Someone please help me with these numbers.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by ddewhurst@Dec 13 2005, 08:31 AM
***What I do know for a fact is the Mini&#39;s RWHP numbers in IT prep...zero.***

Andy, I agree with you on the ^ comment. <_<

155 crank HP vrs 101 OEM crank HP. That would be a 54% crank HP gain. Someone please help me with these numbers.

68088


Help you how? 125-130whp equates ROUGHLY to 150-155 crank. No?

AB

[Bill Miller]

Man, I said I wasn&#39;t going to do it, but I did it anyway. Got sucked into trying to derive hp numbers, and then trying to equate them. I hate when that happens!!! :bash_1_:

[JeffYoung]

Rotaries respond extraordinarily well to exhaust work. I&#39;ve heard the 150 hp at the crank number and I am pretty sure there are dyno plots out there to prove it.

Rick, Jake? Care to jump in? Although, I don&#39;t think Rick reads ITB threads -- makes him recoil in horror when you talk about his 1st Gen in ITB.

[ddewhurst]

***I don&#39;t think Rick reads ITB threads -- makes him recoil in horror when you talk about his 1st Gen in ITB.***

Jeff, my 1st gen & I are not even close to what I have read about Rick & I also get somewhat wound up about going to B. I&#39;ll do cheap E Production rather than down switch with adding 220 pounds & 6 inch wheels. Hell, I will not go to B with 220 pounds & 7 inch wheels. Been thinking about going to the dark side.

Andy, did you Flat folks do any 12A&#39;s ? Numbers man, numbers, Dyno data sheet............. I have a hard time with a 54% gain with zero porting but then I ain&#39;t a motor builder.

[lateapex911]

OK...been working a lot of hours, just got home and fell asleep reading the piston thread!

I think that 110 was the agreed upon stock number for the main run of 1st gen 12As.

My (now blown) engine put about 130 down at the wheels on a Clayton dyno. Claytons are know to be a bit strong. I haven&#39;t had the new motor on the same (or any) dyno yet as I was busy bending the Glens guardrails while "breaking in" the new motor, so I can&#39;t give you numbers on that.

Prep is a long primary exhaust, with a one off prototype header, and a Yaw carb, regulator, etc.

Mike at ISC told me that seeing 120 at the wheels on the standard Dynojet is about all I can hope for....

Paul Yaw thinks there is more...130 or so. Susko agrees.

Torque? LOL...some can&#39;t break 100. Mine was about 106 if I recall correctly. I have seen numbers in the low 100 range on 3 seperate dynos.

A little math tells you that the crank numbers are close to 150. I have taken my car to some "restricted dB" events, ...and there is no point...it&#39;s like driving an ITD car! The rotaries are VERY backpressure sensitive. My on track experience, (with the now blown 130 hp motor) was soundly walked by many other 1st gens in Atlanta, so the either the Clayton was optimistic or guys are getting even more than 130 at the wheels from theirs

The volvos, from what I have heard, are in the 160 plus range, with significantly more torque.

[Gary L]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Dec 14 2005, 05:45 AM

The volvos, from what I have heard, are in the 160 plus range, with significantly more torque.

68196


I want one of those engines for my car. I may be naive, but I just don&#39;t think anyone is actually getting that much hp from the venerable B20E... at least, not legally.