New air intake rule

[murphyd]

Has anyone given any thought to the new rule regarding the air intake and how you may address this on an IT 240sx? We built a custom air box to insulate the filter from the hot air of the engine compartment and would like to continue using it. From just the looks of some of the "cold air" systems out there one would think that there would be some benefit from the smooth flow of those intakes as opposed to the "boxy" stock unit. Weapon R has a neat "looking" system but I really wonder how these units perform. Any ideas, suggestions, experiences, etc...???

[its66]

David,
Since I don't have the 240 anymore, I'll have to let you and the others test these ideas. :)

That intake tube always appeared to be restrictive to me. I think that another possible problem with it was heat. On my car, it basically laid against the radiator. This new wording should allow moving the tubing off the radiator and insulating it from the heat. I doubt either of these will make a huge increase though.

Jim

[Joe Harlan]

David, I will ad one more thing. Think about silicon aero ducting from the MAF to the TB.... B)

[stevel]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 5 2005, 06:52 PM
David, I will ad one more thing. Think about silicon aero ducting from the MAF to the TB.... B)

67372


Silicon aero ducting? You got me here joe, I dunno what that is or where to get it. Joe, any problems with mounting the MAF right by the throttle body. I was thinking of doing this just to simplify things. Though, I don't have the race car right here near me and have not looked at it since thinking of doing this.

Joe, when you get a chance, email me. steveluszcz [at] hotmail dot com

steve

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by stevel@Dec 5 2005, 01:02 PM
Silicon aero ducting? You got me here joe, I dunno what that is or where to get it. Joe, any problems with mounting the MAF right by the throttle body. I was thinking of doing this just to simplify things. Though, I don't have the race car right here near me and have not looked at it since thinking of doing this.

Joe, when you get a chance, email me. steveluszcz [at] hotmail dot com

steve

67375



Yes the rule doesn't allow the harness that much room. Second is that the reversion in the tube will cause issues with the MAF being that close. If I remember when we were messing with this we found 12 inches was then minimum without issues. As far as the Aero duct goes it is the Orange colored Duct you use for brakes. Vry nice for aor intake as opposed to the aluminum tube.

[murphyd]

Do you think there would be any advantages or disadvantages to the units that are already on the market? I know some of these are cheap, but the nice mandrel bends and smooth internals would seem to be less restrictive than the stock piece or even the aero tubing (or is it smooth inside also).

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by murphyd@Dec 5 2005, 01:56 PM
Do you think there would be any advantages or disadvantages to the units that are already on the market? I know some of these are cheap, but the nice mandrel bends and smooth internals would seem to be less restrictive than the stock piece or even the aero tubing (or is it smooth inside also).

67379
The silicon Aero tube is smooth inside about 9 bucjs a foot and is flexible to move around things. I found that on my application(not IT) It worked better than any of the aluminum ones and did not get anywhere near as hot as the metal ones. If I were not gonna use the aero duct I would be building one out of stainless and having it barrier coated to control internal heat. I also machined an adapter that reduced the tube from 3.0 to 2.75 OD on the throttle body. very nice High swirl piece.

[murphyd]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 5 2005, 09:19 PM
The silicon Aero tube is smooth inside about 9 bucjs a foot and is flexible to move around things. I found that on my application(not IT) It worked better than any of the aluminum ones and did not get anywhere near as hot as the metal ones. If I were not gonna use the aero duct I would be building one out of stainless and having it barrier coated to control internal heat. I also machined an adapter that reduced the tube from 3.0 to 2.75 OD on the throttle body. very nice High swirl piece.

67381




So can I assume the reason for this machined piece is that the aero tubing comes only in 2.5 or 3.0 OD? Or was there another reason? Do you have these available for fellow 240sx guys? What would be your personal opinion of using this type of tubing with the air filter located in the stock location and it (the filter) being sealed off in an "insulated" box? Would you use some type of insulating material on the aero hose or is that overkill? Any pics of your system for reference? Thanks!

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by murphyd@Dec 6 2005, 06:37 AM
So can I assume the reason for this machined piece is that the aero tubing comes only in 2.5 or 3.0 OD? Or was there another reason? Do you have these available for fellow 240sx guys? What would be your personal opinion of using this type of tubing with the air filter located in the stock location and it (the filter) being sealed off in an "insulated" box? Would you use some type of insulating material on the aero hose or is that overkill? Any pics of your system for reference? Thanks!

67444


I will try to get a photo up for you in the next day. I have this system attached to the factory airbox at this point because I have cold air fed to it. I would have to think about how much to make the adapters but it could be done.

[DavidM]

I haven't read the new regs concerning the intake in detail, but I get the impression that the intake is pretty much free now except the stock wiring harness and MAF have to be maintained. Is that correct? What are people's thoughts about the stock location for air pickup? Seems like the wheel well would have a good cold air supply, but the air would be fairly turbulent. Getting air from the engine compartment would be less turbulent, but hotter. So is there a better spot than the stock location or is not worth the hassle of moving stuff around?

David

[its66]

I always thought that these would make a really interesting "intake tube". :P

http://performanceunlimited.com/cobravalle...in/ductfan.html (http://performanceunlimited.com/cobravalley_drivetrain/ductfan.html)



I know, I know. I can never wear my rules nerd hat again...

[Greg Amy]

David, don't forget you still have to work within the confine of 17.1.4.D.1.a.4:

"Air intake source shall be within the confines of the engine compartment or stock location."

[RSTPerformance]

What are your opinions...

1. The GCR says that you can not modify the MAF (Must remain operational and unmodified)... does that mean that it also must stay in its original location???

2. On an Audi the distance between the MAF and the throttle body is not very long. The rules now say that this "tube" can be modified or removed. If I were to modify this "tube" and relocate the MAF to the oposite side of the engine away from the headers, I could source much cooler air.

2a. Do you think that this would give me any gains.

2b. Do you think that a hugely longer "tube" from the MAF to the throttle body will have a negative impact?



For reference to my brain storming: Check out this picture of an Audi engine compartment. On the front left is the MAF (see fuel lines going to the head, and "tube" going to throttle body?). On the Right front is a shield chanaling air to the radiator. Under that shield is a lot of empty space. One could relocate the MAF infront of the radiator. A new airbox/mount and I could get as much cold air from the grill area as the MAF could take. 1 drawback, the distance from thier to the throttle body (back left) is a huge distance...

http://www.igdc.com/ejfluhr/audi/pics/85engine.jpg

Raymond "so is it legal, and/or is it worth it?" Blethen

[DavidM]

Originally posted by GregAmy@Dec 6 2005, 02:13 PM
David, don't forget you still have to work within the confine of 17.1.4.D.1.a.4:

"Air intake source shall be within the confines of the engine compartment or stock location."

67467


Agreed. But, for example, I could ditch the stock air box and get one of the cone filter setups where the filter basically sits where the stock air box is located. That would have the air intake source in the engine compartment. Seems like you could go a step further and locate the cone filter behind the radiator so that it gets better air flow. The big disadvantage I see is that, due to having to keep the stock wiring harness, you're limited to keeping things on the exhaust side of the engine (unless you did a U turn back to the other side of the engine, but that would seem to be bad for air flow). So the air would be hot. I'm wondering if it's worth the hassle to switch things up if there's no net gain.

I haven't looked at things in the car yet. Just tossing ideas about.

David

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by DavidM@Dec 7 2005, 10:51 AM
Agreed. But, for example, I could ditch the stock air box and get one of the cone filter setups where the filter basically sits where the stock air box is located. That would have the air intake source in the engine compartment. Seems like you could go a step further and locate the cone filter behind the radiator so that it gets better air flow. The big disadvantage I see is that, due to having to keep the stock wiring harness, you're limited to keeping things on the exhaust side of the engine (unless you did a U turn back to the other side of the engine, but that would seem to be bad for air flow). So the air would be hot. I'm wondering if it's worth the hassle to switch things up if there's no net gain.

I haven't looked at things in the car yet. Just tossing ideas about.

David

67524

David I think the factory location is the best unless you can in front of the rad (not it legal) I got kins busy and my car is in the trailer but iwill try to post a pic.

Adaptor:[attachmentid=212]

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by DavidM@Dec 7 2005, 11:51 AM
Agreed. But, for example, I could ditch the stock air box and get one of the cone filter setups where the filter basically sits where the stock air box is located. That would have the air intake source in the engine compartment. Seems like you could go a step further and locate the cone filter behind the radiator so that it gets better air flow. The big disadvantage I see is that, due to having to keep the stock wiring harness, you're limited to keeping things on the exhaust side of the engine (unless you did a U turn back to the other side of the engine, but that would seem to be bad for air flow). So the air would be hot. I'm wondering if it's worth the hassle to switch things up if there's no net gain.

I haven't looked at things in the car yet. Just tossing ideas about.

David

67524


It's never worth changing if there is no net gain...right?

Putting your air intake behind the radiator is a bad idea IMHO as well. Cool air gets warmed significantly by the coolant...finding a nice high-pressure area away from heat sources is the key.

AB

[handfulz28]

Just a thought regarding the "stock" location:
At least for the 12v, SOHC, ITA, whatever you call us, the full factory setup sources the air outside the engine compartment. Before it gets to the airbox, it's fed through a hole in the sheet metal below and a bit forward of where the OEM box/filter mounts.
I've been running without the plastic tube that connects the airbox to that opening, but I've been meaning to get it put in there and dyno before/after.
Given the MAF and maybe the post-MAF plastic tubing is considered the biggest restrictors, is it really worth doing much more than just silicone tubing and Joe's pretty adapter?
Yeah Joe, consider making a few of those for us will ya'? :happy204:

Michael

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by handfulz28@Dec 8 2005, 09:01 AM
Just a thought regarding the "stock" location:
At least for the 12v, SOHC, ITA, whatever you call us, the full factory setup sources the air outside the engine compartment. Before it gets to the airbox, it's fed through a hole in the sheet metal below and a bit forward of where the OEM box/filter mounts.
I've been running without the plastic tube that connects the airbox to that opening, but I've been meaning to get it put in there and dyno before/after.
Given the MAF and maybe the post-MAF plastic tubing is considered the biggest restrictors, is it really worth doing much more than just silicone tubing and Joe's pretty adapter?
Yeah Joe, consider making a few of those for us will ya'? :happy204:

Michael

67592

Guys I want to be careful not to break any commercial rules here. If you think you would like an adaptor like the one above E-mail if there are enough I will do a short run on the CNC to cut costs.

[pfcs49]

not to be cynical, Darren, but how come the 240zx guys are lining up for this modification that has no benefit for these cars (at least that was your stand)

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by pfcs49@Dec 8 2005, 11:20 AM
not to be cynical, Darren, but how come the 240zx guys are lining up for this modification that has no benefit for these cars (at least that was your stand)

67610


I am not sure who you are talking to. Normally I don't respond to people without names but. The benefit is a clean installation that is less subject to heat. The choking point on any KA is the size of the MAF. I can supply photos of those if you need them.

[pfcs]

sorry about the confusion Joe. Go to Fastrack>Nov Fastrack>intake rule change: your post (#80) was actually what my reply reflected off of, as a response to Darren Jordan. see also #s 85, 87, 91, and 97. Breifly, I thought (and it's still my stand) that this rule revision was uneeded and an example of the worst kind of rule meddling that corrupts club racing. Phil Hunt

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by pfcs@Dec 8 2005, 05:38 PM
sorry about the confusion Joe. Go to Fastrack>Nov Fastrack>intake rule change: your post (#80) was actually what my reply reflected off of, as a response to Darren Jordan. see also #s 85, 87, 91, and 97. Breifly, I thought (and it's still my stand) that this rule revision was uneeded and an example of the worst kind of rule meddling that corrupts club racing. Phil Hunt

67659



Well Phil, I will respectfully disagree as the air pipe rule puts all cars on the same playing field. And if you want to get your whack in at the right person you have to know how to spell theor name. Darin.... ;)

[murphyd]

Joe, There is a hose running from the stock black air intake tubing to somewhere under the intake manifold (ka24de). Is this a vacuum, emissions, etc.. line and can it be plugged on the manifold end to allow the use of the aero ducting? Can I also assume that you would eliminate both stock rubber flexible boots at the TB and MAF when using the aero tubing. Where is the 2 3/4 -3" adapter used? At the TB or MAF?
Also reading from another thread, I have the Valve Cover vented to a catch can. Is this OK or would I be better off with another setup?
Thanks for the info.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 8 2005, 06:47 PM
Well Phil, I will respectfully disagree as the air pipe rule puts all cars on the same playing field. And if you want to get your whack in at the right person you have to know how to spell theor name. Darin.... ;)

67668

Stay with the catch can until I dyno in a month or so. I am gonna try a closed system. I have to go look at mine. I thinnk I capped all the emmisions stuff including the PCV. Maybe Darin could chime in on what we did with his originally...(memory)[attachmentid=225]

[jamsilvia]

Originally posted by murphyd@Dec 12 2005, 02:25 PM
There is a hose running from the stock black air intake tubing to somewhere under the intake manifold (ka24de). Is this a vacuum, emissions, etc.. line and can it be plugged on the manifold end to allow the use of the aero ducting?

The bigger of the 2 lines running under the air intake is the one that goes to the idle control valve and associated pieces-parts.

And I think the smaller hose goes back to the mess of vac lines and solenoids that sit on the back of the motor/intake.

joe

[murphyd]

Originally posted by jamsilvia@Dec 12 2005, 08:51 PM
The bigger of the 2 lines running under the air intake is the one that goes to the idle control valve and associated pieces-parts.

And I think the smaller hose goes back to the mess of vac lines and solenoids that sit on the back of the motor/intake.

joe

68017


So is it ok to plug these lines or what?

[jamsilvia]

Originally posted by murphyd@Dec 13 2005, 08:28 AM
So is it ok to plug these lines or what?

68079


Only if you don't want the car to idle!!! :-) The big one is the air supply to the idle valve.

The little one, I'm not quite sure. It appears that it goes to the fuel pressure regulator (which, I'd think you would not want to block off). I don't have the routing right in front of me - I'll go home and look at lunch.

joe

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by jamsilvia@Dec 13 2005, 07:18 AM
Only if you don't want the car to idle!!! :-) The big one is the air supply to the idle valve.

The little one, I'm not quite sure. It appears that it goes to the fuel pressure regulator (which, I'd think you would not want to block off). I don't have the routing right in front of me - I'll go home and look at lunch.

joe

68087


You can see or maybe not that all I did on the idle tube was use a small air filter to keep than line clean. I could make an adapter to feed it into the air tube if needed.

[zracre]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 13 2005, 10:51 AM
You can see or maybe not that all I did on the idle tube was use a small air filter to keep than line clean. I could make an adapter to feed it into the air tube if needed.

68093


I would add the line to the intake tract...someone could call you on that one real easy...but it is a very clean set up...

[murphyd]

So where is the adapter in the picture? I guess it is closer to MAF?!

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by murphyd@Dec 13 2005, 09:16 AM
So where is the adapter in the picture? I guess it is closer to MAF?!

68106


No the adapter is at the TB. I used silicon coupler to clamp it to the TB I machined everthing to be a smooth transition to the TB size. I agree the the air line for the IAC needs to be moved to the tube for IT.

[jamsilvia]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 13 2005, 12:33 PM
No the adapter is at the TB. I used silicon coupler to clamp it to the TB I machined everthing to be a smooth transition to the TB size. I agree the the air line for the IAC needs to be moved to the tube for IT.

68115


I'm suprised that the car likes idling with it like that - since all the air it's pulling in is unmetered. Then again, I dunno that it references the MAF at idle.

What did you do with the little line that came off the air intake??

joe

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by jamsilvia@Dec 13 2005, 03:25 PM
I'm suprised that the car likes idling with it like that - since all the air it's pulling in is unmetered. Then again, I dunno that it references the MAF at idle.

What did you do with the little line that came off the air intake??

joe

68156

Which one Joe? I use a manual FP regulator so no need for vacuum to that But every thing else was smog related so I dumped all of it. Remeber the photo is not an IT car. If you can thinkof anything IT need for a conversion like this let me know. ALso in the photo you are not seeing a MAF because on this car I don't use one.

[jamsilvia]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 13 2005, 06:15 PM
Which one Joe? I use a manual FP regulator so no need for vacuum to that But every thing else was smog related so I dumped all of it. Remeber the photo is not an IT car. If you can thinkof anything IT need for a conversion like this let me know. ALso in the photo you are not seeing a MAF because on this car I don't use one.

68162


Yep - that makes sense - if you aren't using that smaller vac line for the FPR, there's nothing else that it goes to that matters.

And if you aren't running an air metering device, I can understand how you got away with the idle air just vented too.

What did you do instead of using a MAF to determine injector duty cycles?

joe

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by jamsilvia@Dec 21 2005, 08:13 AM
Yep - that makes sense - if you aren't using that smaller vac line for the FPR, there's nothing else that it goes to that matters.

And if you aren't running an air metering device, I can understand how you got away with the idle air just vented too.

What did you do instead of using a MAF to determine injector duty cycles?

joe

68845


In my case I am using a 2 bar map sensor combined with the tps single. I am using a AEM Ecu on the RS car. The cool thing is all the work we are doing is allowing me to look at options in the factory ECu when I start burning chips there.