ITC

[Jay_Taylor]

Sence there was some talk of this in the IT-R thred, what could be classed in ITC to help it out?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Good thread Jay. Here are a couple VERY RANDOM thoughts:

1. 90-105 stock hp should get this done without huge manditory weight
2. What runs in ITC now? Honda's, VW's, 510's - all have cult-like following. There was nothing at the 2005 ARRC that wasn't a VW or a Honda.
3. Are there cars with these HP levels even being made...but what sort of 'enthusiast' following do they have? Who the heck is going to build a ITC Kia/Hyundia?
4. There are 10 year old Honda's with 105 stock HP...(1997 Civic CX) - could work...
5. The 'popularity' of being in the 'slowest' IT class is limited. BUT some guys enjoy the challenge of running a 'slower' car and beating cars and drivers that are supposed to be faster...it has to be gratifying!

I think we can get cars in - but it's the recruitment of drivers that makes me wonder.

AB

[zracre]

how about adding some new stuff there...this was hit on before, but if the other option is losing ITC, better to add stuff there

toyota tercel, paseo, corolla
nissan nx 1600, sentra e (4spd)
mazda mx3 (lucky to break 100hp)
said honda civic cx
mitsu mirage/dodge colt

anything with fuel injection!!! makes life easier for newbies...

[Bill Miller]

I think the biggest problem w/ new ITC cars, is that most of the ones that people would be interested in racing, will have to be saddled w/ a lot of weight, to make them fit. Not to mention, that they would really fall into ITB, and 'better' weights. Look at the New Beetle. 115 hp, stock, comes in at 2760# in ITC. Its first cousins, the Mk III Golf/Jetta 2.0 w/ the same motor (2.0 8v, 115hp) are in ITB at 2350#. The concensus among the powers that be, is that the Rabbit GTI (90 hp stock) is 'too much' for ITC. If a 90hp FWD car is 'too much' for ITC, I'm not sure how you make many (any?) of the current crop of econo-boxes fit, w/o saddling them w/ a bunch of weight, ala the new beetle.

Someone mentioned the Scion xA/xB. They'd probably be good ITC cars, but they're making ~100hp stock.

And I don't know if you can give enough of the current ITC cars weight breaks (that they could meet), to make them competitive w/ the current ITB cars, if the classes were combined. Now, take the lower 1/3 or so of ITB, add some lead, and move them to ITC. Problem is, I don't know if that really address the issue, from a strategic point of view, or just band-aids a problem.

[Knestis]

There's been a number of lists of likely ITC options posted here but the simple fact of the matter is that, absent any kind of major strategic push by the ITAC, new cars probably won't get listed - since the system requires that someone actually request that models be considered.

There's no built-in incentive for current ITC entrants to do so - to grow their own competition? - and, all other things being equal, new drivers are either going to build something in another class that's already listed, or go play elsewhere.

I know there are a lot of fish to fry on the ITAC stovetop but it seems like it would be a good planning move to make what is clearly the cheapest IT class healthy. Who knows - this might be addressed to some degree in the current strategic proposal that's been sent up to the CRB...?

K

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by Knestis@Nov 28 2005, 10:35 AM
...a good planning move to make what is clearly the cheapest IT class healthy.
66829

Ouch, Kirk, I tihnk you stepped on your own circular logic somehow.

The reason ITC is so "cheap" is because it's so "unpopular." Do you really think that a Serra-class ITC effort on whatever the car-to-have would be less expensive than, say ITA or ITB? Maybe only in the very narrow range of initial purchase price (unless one considers the not-so-easy task of finding a suitable candidate with which to start), but just about everything else (suspension, engine builds, trans builds, safety equipment, wheels, tires, etc) costs the same money (and, once again, maybe more considering the cost of procuring/fabricating those parts).

Add more cars, make ITC more popular, and I guarantee you that ITC gets "much less cheaper" if not downright expensive. If I were happy in ITC today, I'd be saying "hands off!" to the ITAC... - GA

[joeg]

I Agree--Hands off!

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by joeg@Nov 28 2005, 05:41 PM
I Agree--Hands off!

66840



The proposal sent forth by the ITAC to the CRB includes NO changes to ITC...

I know the Hondas seems to dominate, but the "numbers" show that cars are classified appropriately...

I still believe that a well-built 510 can compete with a Honda... I just don't think there has been one done is some time... Should be more than capable...

[Knestis]

Originally posted by GregAmy@Nov 28 2005, 12:22 PM
Ouch, Kirk, I tihnk you stepped on your own circular logic somehow. ...

66834



Nope - I stand by my contention, but NOT that it is cheaper to BUILD a C car: It is cheaper to run one, at any given level of preparation.

Light and slow means that they are easier on components, tires, brakes, even fuel. The suspension on an ITC Civic is identical to that on an ITA version, and I have NO question that parts will last longer on the former. I wonder how much more often I'd have to replace hubs, rotors, pads, etc. if Pablo had a VR6 stuffed under the hood, was a bunch heavier, and ran in ITS...?

You are right - and I have argued myself - that class rules and specifications don't do anything to directly control costs. Even if ITC was as well populated as is ITA, for example, and the price to build a top-shelf car went up, it would still cost less to run one than to run a similar ITA, ITS, or ITR? car. The difference between C and B is arguably much smaller...

K

[charrbq]

Kirk, agreed on all except that the ITA and the ITC suspension is the same...it's not. Beyond that you're right. The only car I could possibly justify driving in a different class would be an Si in ITB. Yes, I could afford a more expensive car, or a faster car, or any of the above, but racing isn't the only thing I do. I see absolutely no sense in building or competing in something that costs as much as the down payment on a house. My car cost $200 with a broken hatch glass. Absolutely nothing added to it to race anywhere near competively has been so cheap.
As far as a "Serra-type effort" driving the cost of the class up...I doubt it. My team mate built, developed, and maintained his 4 time ARRC championship winning car in his garage. There have been several way more expensive efforts come along as competitive, but have yet to have his domination of the class. Now a whole quantum lot of that is driver, but he's not the only fast driver in ITC.
He and I have given repeated consideration to running in ITA or ITS, but simply cannot justify the expense of maintaining a car in those classes. I've heard all the arguements and agree with some, but even the cheapest of efforts end up costing way more to be competitive in higher classes than my C car does. The faster, the heavier; the heavier, the harder on parts; the harder on parts, the more that have to be replaced, ad.infinitum

[charrbq]

If the recruitment of drivers to ITC seems to be a problem, then look at the entire IT group of cars. There are a bunch of builders out there that will build you a SM or rent one any time, any where. Several of these guys used to build IT cars, but went where the market demanded. The price's I've heard quoted are in the $25,000 range. None of the ITC cars they used to build cost near that much. That price is in the neighborhood of and ITA or even an ITS car (not a BMW!).

[Knestis]

Originally posted by charrbq@Nov 28 2005, 06:26 PM
Kirk, agreed on all except that the ITA and the ITC suspension is the same...it's not. ...


ITA - 92-96 Honda Civic DX
ITA - 92-94 Honda Civic Si

ITC - 92-95 Honda Civic CX

You sure? :)

K

EDIT - by the way, one of those examples is in the wrong class.

[charrbq]

Sorry, I read it that you meant all Hondas. The '84-"87 Hondas were torsion bar front ends...no coils.

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by Knestis@Nov 28 2005, 01:05 PM
...NOT that it is cheaper to BUILD a C car: It is cheaper to run one, at any given level of preparation.
66845

Of course I agree with you, Kirk. However, when you sit down and total up what it would take to build a top-flight, no-holds-barred ITC car, amortize that cost over the expected life of the car (5 years or so?), and then compare that to the costs of campaigning it over that same period, you'll find that the reduced costs of running ITC car aren't that significantly different than that of an ITA car. That's exactly why you and I and others are always telling folks to BUY a car instead of BUILD.

Sure, with a lighter car you'll use up less brakes ($100 per set), tires ($600 per set), and bearings ($25, $50, $75?), but the top-flight guy is gonna put on new Hoosiers every other race or so (mine heat-cycle out long before they wear out), is still gonna replace those brakes and bearings as a preventive maintenance item on a regular basis (we never wait for failures), and is gonna spend what it's gonna take to make the baddest, meanest, fastest ITC car there ever is/was (think an ITC car has already been built to the absolute max? Yeah, well, we thought the same thing about ITA and ITS just a few - couple? - years ago).

My point is that by trying to promoting ITC as the "cheapest" class in order to improve participation you are in effect eliminating that point of attraction. It's a Catch-22 (sorry for the bad pun, Scott). There is nothing right now to keep anyone from spending A LOT of money - likely the same amount spent in ITA today - and wiping out the competition...the only thing stopping it is interest. - GA

[Catch22]

I have to disagree with you Greg.

My car was identical to the ITA version except for the motor and tranny, yet I managed to build a "top flight" car for far less than one could build the same ITA car.
How?
Because I bought the straight, rust free, running car for $750 (try that with an Si).
Then I added several spare motors and trannys. Cost - Free. How? Nobody wants a D15B1 engine and 4 speed tranny except an ITC racer.

The motor work, suspension, and tranny parts were just as expensive as the ITA parts (many of them were the same parts actually), but after than the money saving started again. Its in consumables, and its significant.

Example...
This year, prior to the ARRC (I throw out the ARRC because I replaced alot of things, as most everyone who is serious does, that I would have normally used for another weekend) we ran 2 test days, 4 sprint races and 5 endurance races. For that we used...
- 8 Hoosiers (with good rubber still left on 4 of them)
- One set of brake pads
- One set of brake rotors
- One set of wheel bearings
- The same rear brake shoes we used last year
- The same front and rear hubs we started with in 2003
- The same drive shafts we started with in 2003
- Alot less gas than the ITA version uses.

With qualifying and practice sessions, thats about 18 hours of track time with about 10 of those hours being actual race time.
Now, try to do the same thing in an ITA or ITS car. You can't. Not and be even remotely competitive. Was my car competitive... Very.

The key is in the light weight and lack of straight line speed. It just doesn't tear up stuff. Think of the difference between hitting Road Atlanta 10a for 45 minutes at 112 to 114mph vs hitting it at 125 to 130mph and it becomes pretty clear.

The issue is all about the "cool" aspect of running in ITC. New drivers especially don't understand the allure of "going slow." Later, after they've raced for a couple of years and destroyed their 401K on an ITS car, they understand. But its too late at that point.

More than classify new cars, what ITC needs is REAL information for the beginner. It needs to be advertised as the class where you really can buy a competitive car for $6000 (or build for $12K) and race it on a minimal budget. The cars are out there, and most of them have plenty of aftermarket.
Spec Miata was marketed this way (even though it isn't remotely true) and look at what happened there. People WANT to race cheaply, they just need to understand how to do it BEFORE they start building a car.
You really can't spend $8000 on a Miata and go win races, but you certainly CAN do it in ITC.

Finally, once again, one of the best races at the ARRC was ITC. 3 cars took the checkered within spitting distance of each other (it should have been 4 cars, but...) yet again.
Its some of the best racing out there, its just that nobody knows it. And thats where the problem really hides.

[Knestis]

I think we are all right.

Greg's point is accurate, as far as it goes. If there were SM numbers of ITC cars out there, the best of them would cost 2x what Scott indicates above. My point is about the law of diminishing returns, which I THINK kicks in with a C car a lot more quickly than with one from a faster class.

NOW we are going in circles. :)

K

[charrbq]

Wow Greg, a 5 year life span on a race car! If that's what you give a race car, then ITA is really expensive! I've been running mine for 6 yrs since I built it, and I'm still developing it (and me). My team mate has been running his since '98, has never finished off the podium at the ARRC, and has won it 4 times. You would be shocked at how cheap that car was built and how cheap it has been to maintain.

[Catch22]

See Kirk, Having raced in ITC, at the front, for the last 3 years, I disagree.

One doesn't race in ITC because its cool or because its fast. Its all about the money. The cost to play.

Throw out the cost to play, and I (and I'm guessing everyone I know in ITC) am racing in ITS or ITA. Its cooler, the cars are newer, and its faster.

I don't see ITC EVER getting out of control as SM has because to do so would defeat the purpose of being there in the first place. I know if costs started to skyrocket, and BSI started selling turn key ITC cars for $35000, I'd go race somewhere else.

In short, even if there were 30 ITC cars on every grid I don't think the cost to play would be any different than it is right now. It just doesn't make any sense.
Why be out there getting lapped and raped by BMWs and Miatas for $30000 when you can be the raper for the same price?
See... That doesn't make sense, and its why (IMO) the costs to play in ITC and ITB haven't jumped like they have in the other classes.

Scott, who's ITC car was as well developed and turned out as most any ITA car on any grid but still costs a helluva lot less to build and race.

[charrbq]

:023:
Originally posted by Catch22@Nov 29 2005, 05:20 PM
See Kirk, Having raced in ITC, at the front, for the last 3 years, I disagree.

One doesn't race in ITC because its cool or because its fast. Its all about the money. The cost to play.

Throw out the cost to play, and I (and I'm guessing everyone I know in ITC) am racing in ITS or ITA. Its cooler, the cars are newer, and its faster.

I don't see ITC EVER getting out of control as SM has because to do so would defeat the purpose of being there in the first place. I know if costs started to skyrocket, and BSI started selling turn key ITC cars for $35000, I'd go race somewhere else.

In short, even if there were 30 ITC cars on every grid I don't think the cost to play would be any different than it is right now. It just doesn't make any sense.
Why be out there getting lapped and raped by BMWs and Miatas for $30000 when you can be the raper for the same price?
See... That doesn't make sense, and its why (IMO) the costs to play in ITC and ITB haven't jumped like they have in the other classes.

Scott, who's ITC car was as well developed and turned out as most any ITA car on any grid but still costs a helluva lot less to build and race.

66948

[Greg Amy]

Hey, I'll defer to your experience(s), however keep in mind mine: if I had told you 5-7 years ago that someone would spend $40k+ to build an ITA car (in some cases significantly more), you would have called me a madman. If I had told you near-Touring ITS cars would be offered brandy-new with Motec systems for nearly $50k, you would have handed me another beer and told me to continue getting drunk.

A 5-year lifespan for a race car is an eternity. If you were offering insurance for an ITC car, would you write me a term-life policy on it for 5 years? If so, at what price: the price to build it? Well, guess what: that's a depreciation to zero in five years. And, if it did survive that 5 years, what kind of shape will it be in - or - how much of it would be actually leftover from the original (the old ax-head-and-handle routine)? These are the kinda things you may not WANT to think about, but it's reality. Right, Scott?

Like I said, I defer to your experiences and I agree that ITC is cheap -- today. But
trust me: if you make ITC popular that $6k won't buy much of an old used-up ITC car... - GA

[charrbq]

But Greg, by your own admission, the price of ITA has grown leaps and bounds. So have all the classes. I built my car for a lot less than $8K. It's not as fast as Scott's, but it will get that way. The ARRC champ's car was in that price vicicnity, eventually. I built a car with the knowledge that it could go to the dump at the first race, but didn't plan on it. It's predecessor lasted a year and a half before it bought the wall. I sure won't say that my car is 5+ yrs old...time for a new one.
As for the price of race cars...I can remember when an AM car in Solo 2 was the most awesome price of $35K, or an SSA car was ruled too expensive for the class at $10K, and it was only a couple of years ago when a Spec Miata was advertised as buildable to run at the front for under $5K. Now you put $20K in with that.
It's true that if you put the entry numbers of SM in ITC then the price would go up, but that won't happen nor will it happen in any IT class. If it did, then the SCCA would have us running national so fast you wouldn't have time to right the check for the new parts.

[zracre]

I hate to step into this one but...I think the main difference is if people build them themselves or pay someone to do it for them. I was up in the top 5 at the ARRC (stupid mistake brought me back to 7th with 2 or 3 to go :bash_1_: ) and I was running my stock motor and stock final drive still...i dont have nearly 20k invested. With the same car and more experience and track time at RA (not my home track...driven 3 times in this configuration, twice old in the mid 90's) im sure the results would be better. I have since purchased said gear and OPM motor and still dont have 20k invested. Im sure if someone wanted to build it thru a shop they would spend way more than 20k to duplicate it but that is usually not what a newbie wants...unless they are rich and it doesnt matter. ANY racing is expensive and there is no comparison of SM to IT anything because they are spec cars...thats why people love them (me too building one now) and in IT cheaters are everywhere...with virtually no policing. Why go full effort in IT if someone is going to simply put cams and other illegal bits on and trump your expensive motor? The sport is what we make it...if we want more ITC cars make the class deeper with more cars and advertise entry level Speed Touring on nascarvision...and police cheaters...nuff said sorry for the rant.

[charrbq]

Ooh, Evan...that comment about cheaters are everywhere in IT may start a whole new thread. ;)

[Catch22]

Actually Greg, 5 years ago there WERE already ITA cars being built at around the $30000 range. Not very many of them, but the trend had started.
And as Evan mentioned, thats not *needed* to win if you do alot of the work yourself. You know this as well as any of us Greg.
So yeah, Had I paid Tom Fowler to build my car for me from the ground up, I'd have been riding around in the world's first $25000 ITC car. But... Nobody in ITC does that, and thats kind of the point I'm trying to make.

The difference in ITC is the "Why you are racing here in the first place" thought process I'm trying to bring forward.

So see, one doesn't get into ITC to get into a spending war. One gets into ITC for the express purpose of AVOIDING said war.
Therefore, its highly unlikely that this war will ever start. People with $30000 to burn simply don't build carbed '86 CRXen as their race chariot. I don't expect this will ever change.

[Catch22]

BTW - Are you ignoring me Evan or do you never check your PMs?

I'm typically only ignored by young women, so this kind of hurts :(

[charrbq]

Scott, same for you, I've written you PM's with no response. If so, I'll see that your portions of gumbo and jambalaya are severely cut next yr. :023:

[lateapex911]

So, what we're saying here is that one of the prices associated with ITC is it's relative slowness.

A truth can therefore be given: All other things being equal, it is financially more expensive to race in faster classes.

SM could be an exception, except it fails the "all things equal" test, by promising "built in fairness" that some see missing in the IT formula.

[R2 Racing]

I'll chime in with a perspective from someone who's run both ITC and ITA in the past couple of years with success in each.

My Dad and I have run ITC for 6 years now in two different cars (I ran in ITC until 2004). The first car we bought already built, began learning, and won a CenDiv Championship in. After three years with that car, we completely built our second ITC car ourselves after we felt like we had enough knowledge to do it well. We had good success with it (two more championships) and I know the amount of money we have into it - it's about 3/4 of what's into my current ITA car. It also most definately uses less tires, less brakes, less gas, less axles, etc compared to the ITA car. I also never had to send shocks off to be shortened and revalved or put the money into a trick header for the ITC car - it just wasn't necesasary.

Two years ago, I made the switch to ITA. I bought a '92 Integra RS for $1200 (actually less than what I bought the donor chassis for my ITC car was) that had light front damage ($50 in parts to fix). Again, my Dad and I made the rollcage, built the engine, did the body work, painted the car, and just did everything and anything ourselves. The car currently has won the ITA CenDiv Championship, has several track records, and has finished 7th ('04) and 3rd ('05) at the ARRC. I can pretty much guarantee you that there were other cars on the ITA grid at the ARRC this year with 2.5-3 times the amount of money I have into my car. I guess my point is that it is still possible to have success in ITA with a "cheaper" car.


In regards to ITC popularity:
I really enjoyed racing in ITC (and still do) but there were two factors that drove me out of it: the lack of participation and the lack of great drivers. At Mid Ohio we might get a field of 8 ITC cars and only maybe 3 or 4 were capable of running under a 1:52.0 (the record is a 1:49.3). If you venture away from Mid Ohio, don't be surprised if you're one of only 2 or 3 ITC cars. Also, I kind of hate to say it, but with the ITC cars that would show up, many of them were being driven by guys who I just didn't feel safe driving with. I hate doing body work. Then came along being grouped with SM where I was running with the bottom 1/3 of the SM field (yikes!). That was the end of that.

So I moved to ITA where I can consistently run with 25+ car fields that have a unbelievably high competition level. The ability of the drivers is also incredible and you're faster than the SM's if you're ever classed with them. The initial build cost of my ITA car and the last ITC car we built was really only about $3,000 more. The car uses up slightly more consumables but with just how much I love running ITA, it was worth it. Some contingency/sponsorships helped pretty much eliminate that difference anyways. I've ran two years on my car, probably close to 40 races, and I've had to replace one door skin - that's it. I ran two races in that time in an ITC car and it needed a new hood, front bumper, both front fenders, and major body work to the back right (did I mention that running with SM's in an ITC car sucks?).

[charrbq]

Kevin,
Shame on you! You were trying to get me to drive almost 24 hrs to race on one of the best tracks in the US for a class of 3 or 4 ITC cars? I still might do it, but don't watch the entry forms for a while. I can drive 6 hrs and have that many cars in my class driven by "safe" drivers. lol
As for your body damage, some people have only bad luck. My best friend took my car (he built most of it) to his first driver's school and had a VW slam him off the track in a banzai pass during the early morning lapping sessions! Since then, the only significant damage to my car came this summer when the driver (whoops, that's me) forgot to put the hood pins back in and had the hood attempt a 180 on the pace lap.
I will agree that the most dangerous thing to do on a race track is to be in the last third of the SM's. Some of the better ITC drivers can run in mid pack with them where the driver's are more aware of other people on the track. I'm back there with the lunatics that hate being beaten by ITC cars and will do anything to get you out of their way.
I used to co-drive an older Si that was no way competitive with the newer CRX's, but was fast enough to get away from the crazies. I co-drove with Evan last yr. in the ARRC enduro...first time on the track and first time in a brand new car. I let my ego overload my a**hole! That said, I almost reached nirvana on the back straight! I'd love to be able to drive a car like that the way it should be driven, but I can't. I could run B, but C is where I am.
I've driven faster cars well in the past...Atlantics when they were FB's, Fords when they only came in formulas, and D prod when a Datsun 2000 still screamed. But I like running slower classes, because I have to drive the car. It's frustratingly slow, but the technique used to make one go fast is where the driver has to make up for the inadequacies of the motor. That's where the challenge is.
The reason I changed divisions was to go where the competition was. The tow is ridiculous, but classes of 8 to 10 or more cars is so much more fun. I know ITA has zillions of competitors, and I know the technology and parts are there, but I'm not.
If I can bear the humiliation of having a gas station bumpkin at Ma & Paw's roadside gas station, barbeque, and massage parlor tell me that my car's no race car, it's a station wagon, then I can live with it's short comings.

[Catch22]

Sorry Chris, I can't find a PM from you that I didn't answer (I keep them all, I'm anal like that).
I have to make sure I stay on the good side of the Gumbo pot. B)

All other things being equal, it is financially more expensive to race in faster classes.


Absofreakinlutely.

Its a coolness cost in the slower classes. Your car is likely at least 15 years old (usually more than 20) and it just doesn't attract the attention that a 1995 Integra or BMW grabs, regardless of the paint job.

Hey Kevin, the SEDIV moved ITC from the SM group in the middle of this year and the ITC numbers immediately doubled.
Go figure.
:rolleyes:

[R2 Racing]

Originally posted by charrbq+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(charrbq)</div>
Kevin,
Shame on you! You were trying to get me to drive almost 24 hrs to race on one of the best tracks in the US for a class of 3 or 4 ITC cars?[/b]
hahaha - uhhhhh, I mean....

At Mid Ohio we&#39;re pretty much guaranteed to get at least 8 cars. Sometimes though we&#39;ll still see up to 12-15 ITC cars there but I&#39;ve seen no way to make that happen consistently. I think it really does have something to do if ITC is put with SM though.

<!--QuoteBegin-Catch22
Hey Kevin, the SEDIV moved ITC from the SM group in the middle of this year and the ITC numbers immediately doubled.
Go figure.
Yea, I remember you talking about that and I honestly believe the CenDiv would see more IT cars in general if SM was given their own run group - especially in ITC.

[charrbq]

I hope to see what we all feel will be the second coming of ITC with the removal of SM from the race groups. At the 6 hr enduro two weeks ago at Texas World Speedway, out of nearly 60 entries, only six cars weren&#39;t SRF, SRX7, or SM. I love the race, but I hate racing it. The problem still exists in the ECR series...another race I love. I have never had a problem with running with ITS or ITE in any other series. I have mirrors and know how to use them. They know I&#39;m slow, and I know they&#39;re fast. The SM drivers normally don&#39;t care. I even had one punt me when my car didn&#39;t accelerate as fast as they did. The driver lost as I had a rub on my bumper, and he buckled his hood!
ITC will never be as large as it used to be, but neither will a lot of other classes. It still has a large following and is the desired home for many drivers. I only wish that they had never made a Honda with a carberator!

[flaboy]

I know this topic is dead.But i think the biggest reason itc is falling is that the youger people comming into itc were being ran out just as fast.At least thats what happened to us about 12 years ago.5 young,tallented, hard working,worked on the cars every weekend racers were ran out of itc by the "old" guys of the sport.Everyone knows them...the guys that haven&#39;t freshened up there motor in 2-3years,buy one set of tires for the year..and wanted to protest you every weekend you&#39;d show up.

Thats why i left 12 years ago.....But now i&#39;m back,and i hope to have more fun now than i did back then.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by flaboy@Dec 28 2005, 09:34 PM
I know this topic is dead.But i think the biggest reason itc is falling is that the youger people comming into itc were being ran out just as fast.At least thats what happened to us about 12 years ago.5 young,tallented, hard working,worked on the cars every weekend racers were ran out of itc by the "old" guys of the sport.Everyone knows them...the guys that haven&#39;t freshened up there motor in 2-3years,buy one set of tires for the year..and wanted to protest you every weekend you&#39;d show up.

Thats why i left 12 years ago.....But now i&#39;m back,and i hope to have more fun now than i did back then.

69430


In my mind, getting protested is a badge of honor - IF YOU ARE LEGAL. When it all comes out in the wash, and you are legal, they look less-than respectable. I would never protest anyone unless I KNEW what was illegal.

AB

[charrbq]

flaboy,
Glad you&#39;re back. Sorry about the A-holes that you had to deal with before. Don&#39;t worry, they&#39;re in every class of every type of racing. Just like a bad smell, you have to live with them and get used to it. I know the type..."He can&#39;t be legal, &#39;cause I am totally legal, and he beat me." I&#39;ve heard it before and can give you names. Ironically, those guys are usually so lazy that they don&#39;t prepare their cars to win, or they&#39;re really cheatin&#39; somewhere and blowin&#39; smoke so they won&#39;t look at him. Since you&#39;re in Florida, I hope to race with you this year. First one for me will be the ECR at Daytona in May. Good luck! :023:

[zracre]

I agree...If someone protests me I am always comfy in knowing my car is legal...let them spend the money to tear you down to see a stock OE motor!! haha joke on them. Protests can be annoying when they are done without knowledge...just because you are fast. I dont think I have seen many protests for car infractions lately (except for the SIC) in FL...just listen to many of the cars down here and you can probably find a few with stuff that shouldnt be in there...people get complacent and let things go...i would like to see an impound surprise sometime soon where they check lots of stuff...

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 29 2005, 12:13 AM
In my mind, getting protested is a badge of honor - IF YOU ARE LEGAL. When it all comes out in the wash, and you are legal, they look less-than respectable. I would never protest anyone unless I KNEW what was illegal.

AB

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Andy pretty much hit the nail on the head. If you&#39;re legal, let them write the paper and pay the money. IMHO, it looks bad if you leave and don&#39;t come back. Casts doubt on the legallity of the car. Someone was talking to me about a guy that was very fast, w/ a car that is known not to be a front runner (the car in general, not this guy&#39;s car). He ran w/in about a second of the lap record, his first time at the track w/ the car. Mind you, the class &#39;regulars&#39; are pretty numerous, and have been running this track for quite some time. They told him that if he came back, he could expect to get torn down. He never went back. Given that the car is known to not be a front runner, that the driver ran so quick his first time at the track, and the fact that he didn&#39;t go back, IMHO would call into question the legallity of the car.

You&#39;d be surprised at how much respect that you&#39;ll get from folks that you just flat out out-drive and out-prepare. You&#39;ll get no respect from anyone if your a cheater.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 29 2005, 09:34 AM
He ran w/in about a second of the lap record, his first time at the track w/ the car. Mind you, the class &#39;regulars&#39; are pretty numerous, and have been running this track for quite some time. They told him that if he came back, he could expect to get torn down. He never went back. Given that the car is known to not be a front runner, that the driver ran so quick his first time at the track, and the fact that he didn&#39;t go back, IMHO would call into question the legallity of the car.


69464


Bill, the only issue I have with this is the regulars drove out a new person. Sometimes a polite eduction is the way to go and if it continues then you get out the check book. The otherthing to consider is sometimes people are just that good even in marginal stuff. I always get a chuckle out of those that think they own a track and can&#39;t handle finding out there are people out there that are actually better drivers. I have seen kids jump from a Kart to a POS IT car and make it fly in a short period of time. The key to these things is educate the newbies on how to prep an IT car. Alot of them don&#39;t understand the basis for some of the rules we have.

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 29 2005, 04:13 AM
I would never protest anyone unless I KNEW what was illegal.

AB

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So...being sort of new to the table. How does one protest without being a snitch or blackballed. I&#39;ve run mid pack IT all season and noticed some poor (cheating) behavior by some of our (NER) "respected" drivers. I have the tape to prove it. I&#39;ve seen a strong front runner passing 2 cars (I was one) after blowing past 3 yellow flags because he started at the rear (because he didn&#39;t want to qualify in the rain(boo hoo)) and knew the only "racing" was at the front.
I&#39;ve been "stuck" behind front running guys who on their "march to the front" have perfumed me with exhaust gasses that immediately made my eyes water.
Then there&#39;s Mr. Holmes.....

In my experience the protest thing is sort of a taboo....It offends me deeply to try to run with integrity and respect and watch blatant stuff going on around me. I know I should be the one to write the paper but, If the veterans won&#39;t police themselves it seems like a sure fire way to be ostracised as a racer new to the class.

(... :D and no this is not washerbottle stuff :D :D )

[Bill Miller]

Joe,

I absolutely understand where you&#39;re comming from. And it probably wouldn&#39;t have raised as many eyebrows if it had been a different car. There have been quite a few people that have run that particular car, at that particular track, over the years. Some of which are some pretty good shoes, that can wheel a car pretty well. None of them have run this fast in that car.

Also, I just checked the results at that track, for the past 5 years. There have only been a handful of fast laps under this guy&#39;s fast lap, and they were spread between 3 or 4 drivers. Nobody&#39;s been w/in .7 seconds of the lap record, during that time. This guy ran w/in 1.1 or 1.2 seconds of that same record. Doesn&#39;t add up Joe. The track is fast, and it takes some laps before you can squeeze all the speed out of it. Someone that is that good, to be able to do it their first weekend, in and underdog car, is not going to be running Regional IT races.

If there&#39;s that much in a legal version of that car, I&#39;d love to see it. Would certainly fly in the face of what several people think. BTW, it&#39;s my understanding, that it was a new car as well, maybe its 4th or 5th race.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Dec 29 2005, 11:25 AM
So...being sort of new to the table. How does one protest without being a snitch or blackballed. I&#39;ve run mid pack IT all season and noticed some poor (cheating) behavior by some of our (NER) "respected" drivers. I have the tape to prove it. I&#39;ve seen a strong front runner passing 2 cars (I was one) after blowing past 3 yellow flags because he started at the rear (because he didn&#39;t want to qualify in the rain(boo hoo)) and knew the only "racing" was at the front.
I&#39;ve been "stuck" behind front running guys who on their "march to the front" have perfumed me with exhaust gasses that immediately made my eyes water.
Then there&#39;s Mr. Holmes.....

In my experience the protest thing is sort of a taboo....It offends me deeply to try to run with integrity and respect and watch blatant stuff going on around me. I know I should be the one to write the paper but, If the veterans won&#39;t police themselves it seems like a sure fire way to be ostracised as a racer new to the class.

(... :D and no this is not washerbottle stuff :D :D )

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We can start a new thread so as not to hijack/revive this one but:

You have a few issues. Passing under yellow should be caught by corner workers. I would protest someone with my video IF it was a pass for important (points paying) position AND I thought I had a chance to beat this person at all. I mean, if it was going to be one more corner before they got by, it isn&#39;t worth it to me.

As far as the fumes, it goes back to KNOWING why that is happening. Protest if you know it will make a difference and if you know you are right.

*I* will protest people around me if I need to. I have put to much time and effort into my program to allow cheaters to beat me. Believe I will be talking with Blaney about Honda&#39;s and Serra about Acura&#39;s if I feel like I am getting beaten by illegal stuff. I will become an expert and I will protest if I have to.

Be legal, it ain&#39;t hard.

AB

[charrbq]

I&#39;ve only protested someone in Solo 2, and then only when I knew exactly what was illegal and after they&#39;d been doing it to the class for quite some time. It&#39;s not something I like to do; I prefer that the illegal person is aware that I, and others, know he ain&#39;t kosher, and it&#39;d better not happen again. I was blatantly cheated out of a hard fought third place finish on the last lap by a car that had been half a lap behind. His excuse was an intermittant fuel pickup problem that miraculously cleared itself on the last two laps! While the hood was up in impound, I took a strole and looked. I made it known to my fellow competitors, and within the driver&#39;s hearing, that I&#39;d seen no less than five illegal parts by just looking under the hood, and that I wasn&#39;t going to let it happen to me again.
The next day, the second driver didn&#39;t go out for qualifying, and let it be known the car might not race. I did nothing about it. He chose to start scratch, and I gridded second. At the start, he came by me like it was pulling a Chevy big block! I would&#39;ve done something, but he got his due when he got beat by a much better driver. The car has never shown at that track again, and has never been that fast again. I suppose my lack of action, was in fact the proper action.

Two things aggravate me when I hear them: "It ain&#39;t cheatin&#39; if you don&#39;t get caught", and, "I might as well cheat, everyone else does."

Two cents.

[flaboy]

This time back i have a different attatude,GO AND HAVE FUN,but i will be competative.I&#39;ve already meet some very nice people in the CFR at the few races i went to and watched.I am looking foward to it.

I&#39;m only going to run about 4-5 races this year and then tear the car all the way down over the winter to get things the way i want it.This year will be to get seat time only.I&#39;ll probly run the 2 daytona weekends and probly 2-3 sebring races.


Anyways...thaks everyone for making me feel welcomed not only in scca but on this web site.


Hope to see you all soon


Tim

[lateapex911]

Rob...and others....protesting isn&#39;t easy, nor should it be. In some ways, I feel it is TOO difficult. There are many who have the desire, and the car knowledge, but lack the procedural knowledge to lodge a protest, and that&#39;s too bad.

Search this site for "A Protest Story" in the Rules and Regs section. You&#39;ll learn a thing or two on the process, what goes wrong, and right. It&#39;s basicaly a two part deal...a factual rundown, and then an opiniated commentary....which was actaually very calm, I think. ;) (I was pretty peeved)

We decided that we were SURE there was a cheater in the ranks, and we wanted to KNOW, one way or the other, what was up. So we lodged what we thought was a resectful, but complete top end protest. I think we did our job well, and in a professional manner. When we decided to do it, we decided that there would be a loser no matter what...and that if we were going to create a lot of bad blood, then we wanted as much good to come of it as possible. It was harder than we thought for the last part.

Part of our solution was to form a group. Five guys and a silent advisor. It made sense for a number of reasons. Cost sharing, and within the group, we had different guys with different expertises. I recommend the group approach, as long as each member has the resolve to see it through. We joked when we were asked by the stewards, if there were illegal items found early whether we would abandon the rest of the protest. "No, we will carry it all the way through....if you are going to kill the king, you MUST kill the king", LOL.
A group protest also shows the rest of the class that there is a large desire for the class to run clean.

Before the actual protest, 3 of us had had three seperate warning/conversations with the protestee, the last one resulting in a challenge: "Tear me down"...very well then..............

On track stuff, to me, requires a chat, and a second occurance. Unless he is well known to commit the same fouls regularly.

I recommend a well placed and reasoned protest. There are plenty in your class and your area that will support and help you. Just ask.

[Geo]

Originally posted by charrbq@Dec 29 2005, 11:07 AM

Two things aggravate me when I hear them: "It ain&#39;t cheatin&#39; if you don&#39;t get caught", and, "I might as well cheat, everyone else does."


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The counter is, "It ain&#39;t winning if you&#39;re cheating."