Here's a bombshell for you...

[Mattberg]

This just came to me and it comes from a pretty reliable source... hold on to your hats.

It seems as though SEDIV officials had a somewhat secret meeting back in late July. In that meeting they tabled an issue that would reduce races and limit any one region to one National, two Regionals and one driver's school. Furthermore, only the eight regions currently putting on races would be allowed to continue to do so, basically eliminating the other 10 SEDIV regions from ever putting on a race.

So if this goes through you will have to travel to at least two regions just to keep your license and if you want to do any more than four races get ready for a longer tow. This pretty much screws Central Florida and Florida regions to the max along with all of their drivers. I doubt Nationals will be too affected but IT racing will be crushed including all of the combo National/Regional events like the Pro-IT weekends.

This is yet another slap in the face to drivers by overbearing and greedy officials taking away our fun at our expense steering races to specific regions and specific tracks. They were trying to keep this secret until the vote at the Divisional meeting but it got leaked and it's something everybody should know about. This can't be allowed to happen. To tell you the truth, if it does, I wouldn't be surprised to see Central Florida and Florida start their own club and you can sure as heck say bye bye to the best regional series in the country, the SARRC.

I am following up on the issue with some other sources and will try and keep you posted.

[its66]

44 views and no reply. I'll be first.

Matt,
We know that some of your posts in the past have been a little critical of SCCA and some questionable dealings/practices. With that, I will still say that as a CFR member who rarely leaves the region, I would be extremely unhappy to see this "plan" become fact.

If you do hear anything else on this subject that is fact, please post and let us all know.

Has anyone else heard of this? Certainly Matt isn't the only person on this board with contacts and extra ears listening...

I don't see the black helicopters circling Orlando yet. If I do, I'll let everyone know.

[Mattberg]

I have just confirmed for sure that this is being talked about by someone who was at the meeting. It's being looked at as a way to distribute the racing more evenly and fairly among SEDIV regions. It most affects the SARRC and some National racers. It needs to get out and needs to be knocked out of the park. We've got a great thing going here in FL and they want to distribute it so they can expand their borders on our nickel.

[Mattberg]

And I'll tell you one other thing. This smacks of an old SCCA official's tactic of keeping it quiet until it's too late to mobilize against it. It's been a common practice. I went through it with SM and there are a few of the same folks involved. Keep us in the dark and not allow any anti-sentiment to develop while they firm up their plans.

Don't let it happen! Pass the word. But I can guarantee for sure they're trying to do it. I now have four sources that are aware of the issue who were there.

[Mattberg]

Now confirmed by a fourth official. None too happy to say the least.

[gsbaker]

Someone has to play the dunce here, so I guess I'll bite.


Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 17 2005, 01:37 PM
...It's being looked at as a way to distribute the racing more evenly and fairly among SEDIV regions....
65696

This is the part I don't get. If there is a demand for races outside the FL area, won't those regions establish local races? To my knowledge there is not a cap on the number of races for a Division, so why the need to move any?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by gsbaker@Nov 17 2005, 02:08 PM
Someone has to play the dunce here, so I guess I'll bite.
This is the part I don't get. If there is a demand for races outside the FL area, won't those regions establish local races? To my knowledge there is not a cap on the number of races for a Division, so why the need to move any?

65715


Here is the NARRC Schedule...the PTB have made a nice effort to spread out the points events throughout the tracks in-region.

Driver’s Schools
April 21-22 NHIS NER
June 17 Lime Rock NER

Narrc Regionals
April 23 NHIS Regional NER
May 13-14 Pocono NJR double
May 27-28 NHIS NER triple Nerrc, double Narrc
June 17 Lime Rock NER
July 4 Lime Rock Mo-Hud
July 8-9 NHIS NER double
July 22-23 Watkins Glen Glen
August 18-19 Lime Rock NJR
August 26-27 NHIS NER plus enduro
September 9-10 NHIS NER double
October 20-21 Lime Rock Narrc Runnoffs NYR
************************

Help us understand the issue better...on the surface, it doesn't seem crazy, just equitible - unless they are creating a false demand by limiting events just for the sake of limiting them - not Regional equity.

[Mattberg]

They want to play with the supply and demand model. By limiting the number of races in the popular places they feel they can force people to go to other regions. At least that's the gist of it.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 17 2005, 03:30 PM
They want to play with the supply and demand model. By limiting the number of races in the popular places they feel they can force people to go to other regions. At least that's the gist of it.

65728

But the question remains...is that the best thing for the Region as a whole? Seems like they could have just included other tracks in other Regions in the points structure like we do up here. They haven't limited the amount of races - and actually have added some - but the points structure incents inter-Regional travel and participation.

AB

[Mattberg]

Also, if this were an attempt at reasonable distribution why would they eliminate 10 regions from ever holding a race. This is purely a play to capture Florida rgeion racers that they have to dat been losing out on. I can't confirm and nobody will tell me but I'd bet the farm that this entire thing was being sponsored by somebody from the Buccaneer region who owns a POS track that a lot of people just don't want to go to and they're pissed that we won't, and pissed that our numbers at Sebring, Moroso and Daytona are so much better than what they do.

[bhudson]

The meeting was hardly "secret." It was discussed at the regularly scheduled mid-year RE's meeting. The Atlanta Region Asst RE reported the discussion to the Atlanta Board of Directors. It will be discussed again at the SEDIV convention in January, and even then it will probably not be finalized.

The report we got was that the goal is to allow more regions to hold races, not to limit it to the gang of eight.

The key phrase is "nothing is finalized" so if you have suggestions or comments, contact your RE.

The report we got from our Asst RE is that the regions would be limited to one national per TRACK, with an exception for the Double at Roebling. That means Central Florida could presumably still have Nationals at Sebring and Daytona. Likewise Florida Region could do the same with Homestead and Moroso.

The only track (other than Roebling) that currently holds two Nationals is Road Atlanta. The consensus of the Atlanta Board is that this would not be a big burden on us if we lose the June National.

The SEDIV has a lot of tracks, with more potentially opening. The GCR limits the division to 12 Nationals. I believe the RE's are taking a proactive step toward parity in the division and actually trying to open up racing to more regions.

Also, as I understand the proposal - the idea is to limit the number of SARRC races to two per TRACK. And regions would still free to hold as many non-SARRC regional races as they please.

Bob Hudson
Atlanta Region Board Member

[Mattberg]

And why after talking to over 20 drivers today do none of them know anything of this proposal? Don't BS us. Are you a driver Mr. Hudson? Are you a driver who drives in eight Florida SARRC races? Are you a Florida driver that will be reduced to driving every SARRC race in his/her region just to keep their license instead of being able to attend four out of eight?

Sorry. I know "official speak" when I hear it. The same lot of you lied your asses off on the Spec Miata issue with Bill Weston and the rest of the BoD fronting your wants and needs to preserve your precious regional revenues you never share with the drivers. The bottom line is this. Officials need to start learning that this is a driver's club, not an official's club. If it came down to it, we would survive without you. You cannot survive without us. That needs to be understood once and for all. You want to be useful, figure out how to attract workers and don't get involved in how or where we race or your petty territorial wars in which you have no stake. Be careful, CFR and Florida could just as likely go off on their own and leave SEDIV with their thumbs up their heineys. It happened back in 1991-92. Remember? Don't force that card. I just want DRIVERS to know what you guys are talking about in your little meetings you don't tell anyone about.

[Sandy]

Oh, my goodness. Since I am on the Atlanta Region Executive Board, I heard the same report from the Divisional Mid Year meeting. I didn't take it to be a secret either. However, I think, before anyone gets real upset about this, they should ask their RE or someone that attended the meeting for the details. Matt, you had some of the details, but not all of them, as I know the story. Oh, by the way, not only do I work my fanny off at the race track six events a year, Fletcher and I race 6 to 8 Nationals and 6 Regional and the Runoffs each year; and we hold offices and chairs of committees in the Atlanta Region. I think I or we have earned the right to comment on just about everything that goes on in SCCA. I have found a better way to influence decisions; join in and be a part of organizing and running this organization. Give back as much as you take. Your voice then carries more respect and credibility. Then many times it works out just like you wanted it to.

[bhudson]

Fair enough - I'm a former driver. I am a current board member of a racing region, a licensed flagger and a steward in training so I do have an interest in maintining a healthy racing program in the SEDIV. I also understand that club racing should be primarily focused on the desires of the drivers with a balance towards expanding racing in the SEDIV to those regions that would like to do so.

That being said, I suggest you contact your RE and express your opinion of this proposal.

Bob Hudson

[Catch22]

Mr. Hudson is the Atlanta region worker chief.
He, like all of our workers, is awesome.

Thanks for being an ass and talking to the guy that protects my ass while I'm racing like you just did. That was a real good job. Got any more tricks for us?

Most of you guys rarely leave Florida anyway. Personally I couldn't give a rats ass if you guys started your own club. From a drivers standpoint it would hardly effect the rest of the division.
I went to the May ECR at Daytona and met 8 drivers in my class that I'd never met before. Why? Well, they never leave Florida. Meanwhile, the rest of us travel from Georgia to Florida to VIR and everywhere in between. If we want to race the majority of the Florida guys, we have to come down there.
So... Make your own club. Who cares.

Just My Humble Opinion.

[its66]

Bob,
If the plan being discussed is to restrict the number of national reaces to one per track, limit the SARRC's to two per track, but have no restriction on regular, regional races, I support that plan. National guys might object, but it seems it would have little effect on the IT racers.
My research doesnt' exactly support the report that Matt gave.

[dave parker]

Thanks for being an ass and talking to the guy that protects my ass while I'm racing like you just did. That was a real good job. Got any more tricks for us?
catch 22

Scott
Matt specializes in this sort of behavoir on every racing forum I have seen. If you ignore him long enough he will go away.

The funny part is that Matt races a Spec Miata, but chose to come to IT.com to peddle his own special brand of garbage. I just looked on SM.com and did not see a post about this issue. Must not be important to them, i guess.

Sorry about the thread hijack......Please return to your regularly scheduled frivolity.

cheers
"dangerous" dave parker
wdcr ITC->HP #97

[its66]

Originally posted by dave parker@Nov 17 2005, 10:45 PM
Thanks for being an ass and talking to the guy that protects my ass while I'm racing like you just did. That was a real good job. Got any more tricks for us?
catch 22

Scott
Matt specializes in this sort of behavoir on every racing forum I have seen. If you ignore him long enough he will go away.

The funny part is that Matt races a Spec Miata, but chose to come to IT.com to peddle his own special brand of garbage. I just looked on SM.com and did not see a post about this issue. Must not be important to them, i guess.
Sorry about the thread hijack......Please return to your regularly scheduled frivolity.

cheers
"dangerous" dave parker
wdcr ITC->HP #97

65756


That's funny since with Spec Miata going National, you would think that the thoughts mentioned buy Sandy and Bob would be more detrimental to the SM guys than us here in IT land.

:bash_1_:

Not the first time he has stirred stuff up, that's why i asked our RE, race chairman, and a few other the story. I would suggest that anyone else with questions do the same. Unfortuantely, not all the information posted on the internet is accurate.

[dickita15]

Bob, thanks for the info and do not feel special Matt acts like to jerk to most people. if I were to guess I waould say he probably has lost posting privleges at the sm site.

[lateapex911]

Wow.........

I have GOT to spend less time at this thing called "work" and devote entire days persuing paranoia!

Thanks for the earthshattering, hat blowing news...but last I checked, all my hats were present and accounted for, undisturbed... :rolleyes:

Matt....do you know Mr Hudson? Why the total rude and disrespectul approach? I, and others, find it totally unacceptable, and completely without integrity.

Sigh............................

[Mattberg]

I'll can't wait for some more Florida guys to chime in. We've built a huge following down here and now executives from other regions want to suck out some of that success for themselves at our expense? Sorry. Let those regions build up their own base. They haven't been able to, so now they want to load that burden on us by making us go to their tracks? There's a reason we don't have to leave Florida. We've got three good tracks, a huge base of drivers and no less than eight very well subscribed SARRC events and three hugely successful Nationals. Why screw that up? How would all you Georgia folks feel if we moved the ARRC to Topeka?

All I'm saying here is be aware of what the executives are talking about and doing. They have a funny habit of mobilizing and implementing their ideas without our input and before you know it, it's too late to do anything about it. Funny thing is I've now heard from a few people here who I know weren't at that meeting but knew about it (Atlanta Region). If they knew about this and post here regularly, why didn't they mention it? Pretty serious as it applies to Florida regional drivers. Selective communication. Care to respond Mr. Hudson?

Sandy, I'm not sure who you are but the reference to Fletcher tells me you're Mrs. Williams. If so, ask your brother-in-law how much time I put into racing and the SCCA. He was my crew chief last year. And do you think anyone would actually elect me to any position? :happy204: LOL

And just for the record, I've raced FF, FA, AS, S2000, Prod and ITS as well as SM and was the 2003 ECR champion. Oh yea...forgot about Sports Renault.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Nov 18 2005, 02:21 AM
Wow.........

I have GOT to spend less time at this thing called "work" and devote entire days persuing paranoia!

Thanks for the earthshattering, hat blowing news...but last I checked, all my hats were present and accounted for, undisturbed... :rolleyes:

Matt....do you know Mr Hudson? Why the total rude and disrespectul approach? I, and others, find it totally unacceptable, and completely without integrity.

Sigh............................

65789


Because it needed to be said and the whole "volunteer" thing makes it impossible for anyone to say the emperor has no clothes on for fear, no offense intended, of recourse like yours. I for one am tired of regional officials deciding our racing futures and playing God, disregarding rules and plotting out policy that does not benefit drivers in any way without regard for the drivers' opinions or needs and then hearing about it after it's a done deal. Furthermore, they all run from accountability when it goes bad with cries of "I'm a volunteer" and it gets supported as they get lumped in with the workers, the ones who truly deserve praise. I was flat out LIED to by a member of the BoD not once, not twice, but THREE times in order to deflect and/or delay any possible action by myself and others in opposition to what THEY desired which was not what the drivers wanted. This official also fabricated information, to support his decision claiming it was what the people of his division wanted, that was proven to be entirely false shortly thereafter but too late to do anything about it. It was what the REs in the division wanted. That's why I will not lay down on this issue. I've learned that we do it too often and I've been burned too many times. It's the reason we're buying belts every two years and running the Runoffs in Topeka, KS, just for a couple of examples. Fight early and often, make all intentions and positions known and do not allow operations to take place behind closed doors. Create accountability.

Have you ever heard a BoD member come out publicly and say, "boy we really screwed up on this Enterprises deal." Or, did the CRB take responsibility for the famous Z4 debacle. No, they passed it onto the drivers. How about Spec Miata? They claimed every excuse from typos to fabricated polling of members. Not communicating to the Florida drivers, their intentions with this proposal, was and is a total disservice.

On the actual issue of the proposal, the way to market for new racers for under performing regions is to do exactly that, not try and force a shift of existing market base to a new location by restriction. That's what's being attempted. Instead of generating interest in other regions which they haven't been able to do they want to take what we in Florida have spent much time and money creating and distribute it elsewhere. It can only amount to a net loss by and business standard. And if certain regions aren't looking to benefit peripherally from this, please explain to me why all other regions should be resrticted from running races other than the "elite eight"? If you want to distribute fairly that doesn't sound fair to me?

[lateapex911]

Matt....

Just because one guy, or two lied to you it does not mean that every person volunteering for the club is a liar.

Nor should they be treated that way, and respect is a two way street.

And yes, actually I have been told, on a number of occasions, that people made mistakes..as a matter of fact, I have had some people in very high positions admit errors in judgemet..others have told me they "stepped all over it on that one"....

Bad apples exist in every bushel...throwing the entire bushel in the dumpster isn't productive.

Get the facts. Be open minded. Write a letter to your BoD guy. Encourage your friends to do the same. Get back to work.
;)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 17 2005, 09:48 PM
How would all you Georgia folks feel if we moved the ARRC to Topeka?


65794


They might be proud that what they started became what it is. Then they might realize that for it to grow into something MORE, they would have to set it free.

Then, and only then, would racers from all over the country come and race for a true 'unofficial' National Championship. Heck, maybe the SCCA would recognize it as such.

:happy204:

AB

[Mattberg]

Jake,

I respect you and your opinion and just so you know I'm not throwing them all into one barrell. But the two REs I talked to won't tell about who's behind this. What am I supposed to do? If they protect each other that way I have no choice but to consider it a group effort and consider the failure to notify us of this proposal a lie by ommission by all. They want to give me a name or names I'll redirect. But officials that come out in support of this behavior? I can only see them as complicit. I also understand that there is supposedly a "closed session" meeting on this topic coming up. So I'm looking at a lot going on regarding a topic that directly affects a lot of drivers including myself and have no access. It sucks and I don't like the way it's being done. It's reminiscent of the BoD ten years ago.

Bottom line is a don't want to get blind sided by this the way I have on a few other issues by officials assuring me that I was overreacting which it turned out I wasn't. I'm still sore over the SM battle and last minute hoodwink not to mention the threat to take away my membership through legal means if I didn't back off on a certain other issue. They eventually caved on both issues but I still had to hire and pay a friggin' lawyer just to protect my 1st amendment rights. That's just BS.

Creating awareness is paramount. I don't think it's fair to break up what we've put together because some other regions haven't been able to do it. They don't want to drive to Florida for eight races, don't. But don't take our races away to FORCE us to drive to friggin' Alabama or North Carolina as the alternative. Actually, as I've said, I think this is about getting people to Roebling Road and RA. Getting the FL folks much farther north or west would be a lofty goal. That, combined with the restrictions on other regions for new races tells me this is not the "even playing field" proposal they're making it out to be and makes me question the honesty, intentions and integrity behind the proposal. I ask again...why restrict the other ten regions if you want to distribute the races more evenly? Given that restriction I believe there are only four other tracks that could qualify for races with only one competing in reasonable driving distance from FL. Atlanta is still a 15 hour trip for me. Starting to see the picture? That's why I think the Buccaneer region is behind this proposal and probably being supported by Atlanta.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 18 2005, 04:16 AM
They might be proud that what they started became what it is. Then they might realize that for it to grow into something MORE, they would have to set it free.

Then, and only then, would racers from all over the country come and race for a true 'unofficial' National Championship. Heck, maybe the SCCA would recognize it as such.

:happy204:

AB

65805



Just a sidenote on your ARRC comment. It's not unofficial AB. It's a great race and I think people recognize that. But it is still a regional race by participation. You have probably well over half the field from either GA, SC or FL but you usually have all the top guys (e.g., Daniels, Stretch, Coello, Moser, Leverone) who make the trip from wherever they might be which qualifies it in my mind as every bit as much of a national championship as the Runoffs. But if you moved it...well I don't know and won't speculate for fear of severe recourse. :bash_1_: People come from all over the country for the Runoffs because... it's the Runoffs, not necessarily because it's their chance to prove they're the best of the best. Fewer than the ARRC I'm sure. I actually think the ARRC is better in that respect and the regional following in whatever radius it might be to Atlanta has created a pretty spectacular level of competition for that race where people come to really race and not parade like many do at the Runoffs.

As it pertains to the topic, that's why I don't think we go screwing around with regional racing. We've created a really good thing that is for good or bad, geographically based. FL has four great tracks and you can't change that. Moroso probably only because of location. ;) Why piss off the FL drivers and shake up the geographical make up to make the Buccaneer region happy? Because they own their track and can't pay to maintain their 60 grit track surface? I won't go there anymore because I go through two sets of tires in a weekend and it's just a POS. No region should own a track. Anyway, geographic concentrations are natural because of tracks and shouldn't be fooled with. This is a stupid idea that tries to reallocate supply with no regard for demand and I think the true intentions are part of a hidden agenda masquerading as a deal of "fairness".

[Chris Wire]

I don't see any black helicopters (maybe the aluminum foil on the windows is blocking my view), and I don't hear them either.

If the rule becomes "1 SARRC per track, and 1 Nat. per track" that's nothing. Overall it means that the CFR race in Feb. on the Sebring short course would simply be a regional only. CFR would still keep its 2 Nationals (Sebring/Daytona) and keep SARRCs at Daytona (double) and Sebring (Turkey Trot). And if Roebling can get a pass for its double-National, I'm sure CFR could get a pass for a double-SARRC.

If the rule gets applied evenly to all, what regions would really benefit? Wouldn't then Roebling lose its Spring National (L. Cook?)? And Bob has already mentioned Atlanta Reg. would lose its June National. So really who benefits?

Ironically, I saw the new "Chicken Little" movie over the weekend!

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by Chris Wire@Nov 18 2005, 04:51 AM
I don't see any black helicopters (maybe the aluminum foil on the windows is blocking my view), and I don't hear them either.

If the rule becomes "1 SARRC per track, and 1 Nat. per track" that's nothing. Overall it means that the CFR race in Feb. on the Sebring short course would simply be a regional only. CFR would still keep its 2 Nationals (Sebring/Daytona) and keep SARRCs at Daytona (double) and Sebring (Turkey Trot). And if Roebling can get a pass for its double-National, I'm sure CFR could get a pass for a double-SARRC.

If the rule gets applied evenly to all, what regions would really benefit? Wouldn't then Roebling lose its Spring National (L. Cook?)? And Bob has already mentioned Atlanta Reg. would lose its June National. So really who benefits?

Ironically, I saw the new "Chicken Little" movie over the weekend!

65814


NO, NO, NO! Not per track. Per region. CFR loses one National and the eight SARRC races between FL and CFR become four. The talk is Atlanta would give up its June National to VIR which they don't want anyway because it loses money scheduled against the MO National and Roebling keeps all of it's races because the SEDIV theoretically sponsors those races beyond the restriction, not the Buccaneer. Is it getting any clearer who is probably trying to get this done?

[Chris Wire]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 18 2005, 12:41 AM
No region should own a track.

65812



That's just nonsense. With the competition to get and keep race dates these days, every region would benefit from owning a race track.

Would Atlanta Region have had to cancel the Labor Day race this year if they owned RA? Don't think so.

Not every region can foster and maintain the kind of relationships that CFR has with Daytona & Sebring. And I think we would still be better off if there was some ownership involved.

[Chris Wire]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 18 2005, 12:58 AM
NO, NO, NO! Not per track. Per region. CFR loses one National and the eight SARRC races between FL and CFR become four. The talk is Atlanta would give up its June National to VIR which they don't want anyway because it loses money scheduled against the MO National and Roebling keeps all of it's races because the SEDIV theoretically sponsors those races beyond the restriction, not the Buccaneer. Is it getting any clearer who is probably trying to get this done?

65815


Well, Bob's post contained information from his Asst. RE and it clearly indicated per track. I have nothing else to go on.

In all honesty Matt, some of your posts in the past have slanted heavily toward the conspiracy angle, so I'm taking this one with a grain of salt. Sorry.

If more information if forthcoming, I'll be glad to entertain it and deal with it.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by Chris Wire@Nov 18 2005, 04:58 AM
That's just nonsense. With the competition to get and keep race dates these days, every region would benefit from owning a race track.

Would Atlanta Region have had to cancel the Labor Day race this year if they owned RA? Don't think so.

Not every region can foster and maintain the kind of relationships that CFR has with Daytona & Sebring. And I think we would still be better off if there was some ownership involved.

65816


I don't think an SCCA region is capable of really running and maintaining a quality track. Roebling is the perfect example. San Fran does a decent job but they have a much larger following and a different situation not to mention way more money. Better left to the private sector. So they cancelled one race because AMA has more pull. BFD. Write it off to experience and get a better committment next time. Bad business and another sign that regions don't have the business talent.

CFR owns no tracks and has no problems with races other than hurricanes not to mention more cash than any region in the country other than estimated cash value of Chicago's Road America stock. Not only that, with the addition of Homestead (a really neat track), Florida and CFR probably have the two or three best facilities in the SEDIV with the exception of VIR and our eviction from Barber.

Chris, ever been to Roebling in the rain?

Great avatar by the way!

[Mattberg]

Chris...I see it the same way. I could care less if it were per track. We have four tracks, no loss. But I confirmed it was per region. Otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. They want to limit races in FL to four and force races in other regions. That's the whole idea behind the proposal.

And BTW, I also was told that Bob Hudson was not at the meeting and posted that information incorrectly, by someone who WAS there.

I also suggest you call Rick Balderson with whom I spoke at length today as well as a number of other REs. As long as we react to this it will never happen. If we sit on our heels they will ram this through.

BTW, has there been a "conspiracy" I've exposed that hasn't been true? I choose them carefully. Runoffs financials? Spec Miata? GT-2 and GT-4? The famous "book"? I do my homework. I'm not looking for credit but don't discredit me for exposing them and getting it fixed. Once fixed or improved doesn't mean it never happened.

[planet6racing]

You know, I figured Mattberg would be showing up again soon, but on a different topic. Something like T3 and going National in 1 year...

Oh well, I guess he is full of surprises!

And, the phrase is "I COULDN'T care less." If you could care less, don't you think you would?

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by planet6racing@Nov 18 2005, 06:04 AM
You know, I figured Mattberg would be showing up again soon, but on a different topic. Something like T3 and going National in 1 year...

Oh well, I guess he is full of surprises!

And, the phrase is "I COULDN'T care less." If you could care less, don't you think you would?

65824


I could care less if Bob Hudson's comments were accurate but they aren't and he wasn't at the meeting. That makes me wonder even more about how information is communicated from these meetings to those not in attendance. Was he told something incorrectly or is he protecting the ultimate goal. I don't really care as long as it doesn't happen. If he's lying, shame on him. If he's only communicating what he was told, shame on someone else.

One misplaced word like "track" instead of "region" changes everything. Unfortunately they don't print it. I'd like to make them do so so there's no confusion. All I know is that everyone who was in attendance at the meeting has confirmed the proposal as I presented it with one new exception, an alternate proposal that allows a double at one of the CFR SARRCs that gives the FL and CFR regions six races instead of eight. Still a net loss and a loss of two SARRCs for Florida region.

[its66]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 18 2005, 05:14 AM
Chris...I see it the same way. I could care less if it were per track. We have four tracks, no loss. But I confirmed it was per region. Otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. They want to limit races in FL to four and force races in other regions. That's the whole idea behind the proposal.

And BTW, I also was told that Bob Hudson was not at the meeting and posted that information incorrectly, by someone who WAS there.

I also suggest you call Rick Balderson with whom I spoke at length today as well as a number of other REs. As long as we react to this it will never happen. If we sit on our heels they will ram this through.

<DELETE>

65820



Matt,
Who confirmed this? If your source was at the big "secret" meeting, and didn&#39;t jump on the forum and/or spread the word, then this "source&#39; is part of the problem too(if there is a problem). Wouldn&#39;t anyone on any of the SCCA&#39;s boards have a duty to inform their constituents? Who is this source that says everyone else here is wrong, yet won&#39;t reveal his/her identity??Or, are we to believe that this secret person, from the secret meeting has decided that you will be the messenger?

I&#39;ve also talked to Rick today, and Bill Martin, and several others. Evidently, Rick told you something different than he told me. Mysterious, unidentified informants don&#39;t get much credit from me.

Please bring some facts and proof to the forum on this subject. Just stating that you talked to Rick today doesn&#39;t prove a thing.

[chuck baader]

Matt, this has been an ongoing discussion within SEDIV since Barbar came on line three years ago. With due process this is being handled. Please remove your head from the sand or whereever else it has been residing. Chuck

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by its66@Nov 18 2005, 06:44 AM
Matt,
Who confirmed this? If your source was at the big "secret" meeting, and didn&#39;t jump on the forum and/or spread the word, then this "source&#39; is part of the problem too(if there is a problem). Wouldn&#39;t anyone on any of the SCCA&#39;s boards have a duty to inform their constituents? Who is this source that says everyone else here is wrong, yet won&#39;t reveal his/her identity??Or, are we to believe that this secret person, from the secret meeting has decided that you will be the messenger?

I&#39;ve also talked to Rick today, and Bill Martin, and several others. Evidently, Rick told you something different than he told me. Mysterious, unidentified informants don&#39;t get much credit from me.

Please bring some facts and proof to the forum on this subject. Just stating that you talked to Rick today doesn&#39;t prove a thing.

65826


Exactly my point Jim. Word should have been spread immediately. And my source should have been all over this but feared recourse. And other than Bob Hudson or those relying on the accuracy of Bob Hudson&#39;s comments, no one else has said the information is wrong. And as far as being the messenger, that&#39;s why it was leaked to me. It&#39;s tough politically for a lot of the officials, especially if they want to see the right thing done and it&#39;s not popular among their own. These folks can get be vicious and things can get pretty nasty if you&#39;re familiar with any of the territory wars that have taken place over the years. So every once in a while they look for a thick skinned loudmouth like me to take them to task and take the rap as bad guy among the ranks of officials. :happy204:

I&#39;m not sure what Rick said to you and I didn&#39;t get his permission to discuss publicly details of our call or any statements he made, but he did confirm everything I&#39;ve said as accurate regarding the existence, basic purpose and elements of the proposal and that he was present at the meeting. Did he deny that? I would be extremely surprised of such.

As far as further proof, I talked to Butch Kummer who was also at the meeting and he added confirmation although he corrected the information I was given, or should I say added the caveat regarding the possible alternate deal concerning the CFR double SARRC i mentioned earlier. Two others also confirmed that the events took place and Bob Hudson himself confirmed it here as well but seems to have the facts mixed up. How much more proof do we need here? I&#39;m sorry I can&#39;t go to the video tape. :(

The question I have as to the mix up on track versus region issue is that it makes no sense. I don&#39;t think we have enough tracks do we? So how or why would that be proposed? You&#39;d need 13 tracks to do the 25 races with that policy. Daytona, Moroso, Sebring, Homestead, Roebling, Atlanta, AMS, CMS. VIR... am I forgetting any? That&#39;s nine. We&#39;re four short so we&#39;re either adding tracks outside of Florida OR were losing seven or eight races. Now...that presents a whole different situation. Since everyone is chanting the "even distribution mantra" I can only speculate but, is this a plan to actually reduce the number of races? Maybe. I know officials got a little spooked about the Atlanta-AMA incident and a continuing shortage of workers. But a reduction of 7 or 8 races where 4 of them come out of Florida is hardly a fair shake. Personally, I still think this is intended to get Florida racers to travel out of Florida but my opinion is not important here. (I know someone is going to jump all over that one! :D Go ahead guys. :happy204: )

Bottom line is no matter what, something&#39;s going on, the meeting took place and a proposal was discussed, which even Hudson confirmed. Ultimate intentions and designs? Your guess is as good as mine. That we don&#39;t have the details is more than a little worrysome so we need to keep informed and aware. I also think it&#39;s about time for some officials to come forward and clarify the issue. :023:

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by chuck baader@Nov 18 2005, 01:41 PM
Matt, this has been an ongoing discussion within SEDIV since Barbar came on line three years ago. With due process this is being handled. Please remove your head from the sand or whereever else it has been residing. Chuck

65836



All insults aside, since you seem to be in the know, can you enlighten us as to the intentions and details?

[chuck baader]

I attended the SEDIV meeting when Barber was brought on line and there was difficulty in scheduling the race because of conflicts with the mileage and time rules of the division: concessions had to be made and rules had to be modified. At that time discussion began (to my knowledge) about the inability of new racing regions scheduling races because of the current racing calendar. By keening in touch with my RE, I am aware that discussions have been ongoing and will probably be finalized or at lease proposed at the SEDIV end of year meeting. Chuck

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by chuck baader@Nov 18 2005, 04:22 PM
At that time discussion began (to my knowledge) about the inability of new racing regions scheduling races because of the current racing calendar. By keening in touch with my RE, I am aware that discussions have been ongoing and will probably be finalized or at lease proposed at the SEDIV end of year meeting. Chuck

65858


Which confirms what I&#39;ve heard as well and that this new structure will be put to a vote at Jekyll Island with little if any member input. How are new regions going to put on races with the proposal to have only the "elite eight" continue putting on races? Given that policy, who is this going to benefit? As I look at it it only means that Florida racers MUST go to Roebling (double) at least once or Atlanta AND Roebling at least once. If I don&#39;t want to go to Roebling I&#39;ve got to go to Kershaw or VIR! Might as well visit the folks and go to Lime Rock or Summitt Point!

What I really have a problem with is Roebling getting a free pass with SEDIV hosting those races beyond the proposed maximum. Why is Roebling the center of the universe? It&#39;s such a lousy track. It&#39;s just not right. Maybe Florida should just become a Division.

[chuck baader]

Mat, please reread my response.... "difficulty in scheduling the race because of conflicts with the mileage and time rules of the division: concessions had to be made and rules had to be modified." What that means is that a new region wanting to become a racing region would have a problem scheduling a date. That is the only problem being addressed to my knowledge. Step back from the keyboard and take a deep breath, please. Chuck

[Matt Rowe]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 18 2005, 11:50 AM
As I look at it it only means that Florida racers MUST go to Roebling (double) at least once or Atlanta AND Roebling at least once. If I don&#39;t want to go to Roebling I&#39;ve got to go to Kershaw or VIR! Might as well visit the folks and go to Lime Rock or Summitt Point!
65861


So, you don&#39;t like that a driver would have to set foot outside of Florida in order to the win the South Atlantic Road Racing Championship? Talk about living in your own little world.

As I see the proposal, no one is preventing a region from putting on as many regionals as they want, only that only two per track or region will count towards SARRC points. So what&#39;s the big deal, if you want to stay in Florida then please do it. In fact start your own Florida only message board and keep this kind of crap there. But don&#39;t expect to be called a SARRC champion if you can&#39;t race on at least a majority of the tracks in the South Atlantic.

Lookind at the SEDIV schedule and listening to other people from that division including officials, workers and racers it&#39;s obvious there are already to many events in the series. The fact that the division is working on a plan to address the problem is comendable, not something that should be shouted at. Talk to your RE and make some suggestions and yes get the word out to make sure people are informed. But as usual your tactics need a LOT of work.

[apexingsupra]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 18 2005, 04:50 PM
Which confirms what I&#39;ve heard as well and that this new structure will be put to a vote at Jekyll Island with little if any member input. How are new regions going to put on races with the proposal to have only the "elite eight" continue putting on races? Given that policy, who is this going to benefit? As I look at it it only means that Florida racers MUST go to Roebling (double) at least once or Atlanta AND Roebling at least once. If I don&#39;t want to go to Roebling I&#39;ve got to go to Kershaw or VIR! Might as well visit the folks and go to Lime Rock or Summitt Point!

What I really have a problem with is Roebling getting a free pass with SEDIV hosting those races beyond the proposed maximum. Why is Roebling the center of the universe? It&#39;s such a lousy track. It&#39;s just not right. Maybe Florida should just become a Division.

65861


Wow. Somone told me to come and read this thread. Lots of misinformation here. Mr. "Mattberg". Who is your source? If you will not name that person then what credibility does this source have? None in my opinion and someone wanting to be "secret" about their identity at a meeting that was not secret seems well, someone with a "secret" agenda but then maybe not. I can tell your "source" doesn&#39;t have it right Why? Because I was at the mid-year meeting and I have been involved in these discussions. Your source fears reprisal? Please. I guess the SEDIV goon squad is going to come and break his kneecaps? I can only surmise that you have never been to a SEDIV meeting because there are many vocal and divergent opinions in SEDIV and we try to discuss these things and work them out in meetings and informally between meetings. Believe it or not we actually try and do the right thing as best we can. It is not a we the powerbrokers versus the "little guy" racer. I have no RE crown, scepter or even a pinky ring for my members to kiss. Please.

There is a problem being discussed at the divisonal level. People have been throwing in ideas for general discussion. There was no "secret meeting". The July meeting is the same semi-annual meeting that was the one announced on the SEDIV website what, a year in advance because it happens well, every year! No doors were locked. No secret location, no secret handshake. No one wore hoods or robes.

Go look at the SEDIV calendar, there are about 110 days of competitive events and that is counting just a handful of Time Trial events. We have over a 100 days of wheel to wheel racing. We have had more tracks come online in the last ten years and more regions want to go racing. I know more regions that are considering it so there goes your "Elite Eight" argument. The point is some regions who have never put on a club race want to consider doing it. In fact the Alabama region may potentially co-sanction one with a rookie region just to help them get their feet wet in club racing.

In case you have not noticed our worker base has not increased in proportion to the number of events that are being put on. The resources of available stewards is being strained too. There are certain SARRC rules about putting a race on the calendar that benefits those regions that have raced for decades which really was no problem when there were a lot fewer tracks. In light of the crowded calendar we have now it is almost impossible for a newer racing region to get any race on the calendar. So is it just "tough luck" to the newer racing regions or not. Is there some attempt at equity or opportunity or not. Is there some way to relieve the stress on our resources with our racing calendar and allow some of the newer racing regions to have a race or two. Not only did the Atlanta region get its race cancelled due to not enough workers it happened just recently again for a race to be held at CMP.

I am not the only one who has expressed concern over SEDIV&#39;s worker resources. SEDIV&#39;s current executive steward commented at the July meeting that the day is coming (already here) when some race are not going to go green in the future because of our busy calendar and limited number of stewards and workers. The SARRC administrator even commented last January when the topic first came up (I am the one that brought it up originally and well that is no secret.). The SARRC administrator even suggested based on SARRC entrant counts at certain events (marginal entries) that some regions might consider not putting on those events to allow other regions to put on races. Old Dominion is a region that would like to become a racing region when Dragonsridge opens up. I am all for it. But they will not have much luck if they can&#39;t get a decent date to run a SARRC race which is pretty much impossible based on our now SARRC rules and the number of SARRC races scheduled. I am all for it. Chattanooga Region has expressed an interest in club racing. They are the region I am talking about maybe helping in co-sanctioning. Again they have next to no chance to get on the SARRC calendar. So your statement that they was EVER any mention or dicsussion about locking out any region of SEDIV from ever holding a club race is a complete fabrication.

You want facts. Here are some. Buccaneer region is the one that floated as an "idea" not cast in stone, just something to get the discussion rolling on each region getting certain number and type of events. It was a suggestion for discussion. Other regions made different suggestions. The Buccaneer one just happened to be more specific. I don&#39;t even think it was discussed over ten minutes if even that. No motion was made by anyone to even consider it for a vote nor was it even remotely hinted that it was to be considered as something to vote on then. That idea that was floated is not even any kind of official consensus and in fact is not a consensus. While I really appreciate the efforts of those good folks in the Buccaneer region trying to brainstorm and come up with a plan, I can&#39;t say that I agree with all of it. I have tried to come up with a plan to consider but have not yet.

I know the Alabama region would like to maybe add another race to its calendar but it is about impossible to get any kind of date that has a decent chance to be successful or to even get on the calendar. Right now we don&#39;t want eight or ten races like some other regions nor do we have the resources to manage such logistics. SARRC is the success formula in this SEDIV. People want to race SARRC. So for a newer region we need to put on SARRC races. Newer regions with smaller bank accounts can&#39;t afford to have low entry financial failures like the older regions whose bank acounts could withstand a failure or two. At least "north of the border" we need some decent dates (for Alabama January and February are not decent dates- lots of rain, cold, maybe snow, and it is the"off season"). SARRC has rules that limits when and the number of races a region puts on. Go read them if you have not then you try and plug in one more SARRC date on the calendar in 2006 without running into a rule that says you can not. Good luck.

If we just held a regional, well it would probably be a loser. At present my region puts on one race. One. We would like to be able to consider to put on two. Is that asking too much? But to do that some regions may need to consider what events are marginal for them and maybe, and we are talking maybe, consider not putting on that race.

The SEDIV racing "pie" is pretty much a fixed pie. So all the regions are pretty much competing for the same fixed dollar "pie" each racing season. More racetracks and more races do not equate to more entrants in the division or more entrants deciding to do more races. At least the folks I know that race have a budget and decide to do x amount of races per year. So if another region in SEDIV puts on an additional race all it is doing is taking away from someone else&#39;s race whether it be on the same weekend or not. To come to x region&#39;s race one might decide not to attend region b&#39;s race. To add to that now the stewards have another venue to cover and the corner workers have another event to man.

The reality is this is a growing problem for this division. At least some if not many think so. The question is what are we as a division going to do about it. I don&#39;t know the answer to that yet. But I do know we need dialogue now amongst the regions especially between the "older" racing regions whose number of races occupy a big chunk of the calendar and the newer or smaller regions who would like at leat some equitable opportunity to maybe get a race on the calendar. The SARRC rules are not "free enterpise" or "free competition". It is a barrier to entry to a smaller or newer racing region to gain the ability to compete in the club racing marketplace in SEDIV on some kind of "competitive" footing.

SEDIV is a great division. I for one would hate to see it split like CENDiv. What does not help is to accuse all the SEDIV board members of being a bunch of secretive egomanical people who don&#39;t give a rat about their members. A lot of times it is hard to get people in the region&#39;s to even give you an opinion. I do what I think is best for my region and try to make that good for the division. People are talking openly about what we can do make things better. You may or may not agree with it. Your source gave you inaccurate or incomplete information or you misunderstood it. The idea floated by the Buccaneer region was just that an idea.

You appeared to dig on Roebling getting a SARRC waiver. Well CFR got one too when the Labor Day weekend race at AMS was cancelled so people would have a place to go. These are things worked out amongst the regions. Oh by the way this "proposal" you speak of which is just an idea in seeking a solution is not on any "agenda" to be voted on at Jekyll. Have not heard a peep about that and considering I am on the SEDIV board, I should know. We have not had enough dialogue to see what if anything we are going to do about the calendar or about our resource issue. But if you don&#39;t at least talk about it then you get caught flatfooted or things go awry and divisions do split. Maybe that is what you want in the first place. I don&#39;t know. Have you actually talked to your RE about this before coming on here and accusing the SEDIV board of treachery? If not, then shame on you.

Now back to the regularly scheduled Oiver Stone movie......

Barry H.

[Sandy]

Thank you Barry. I will shake your hand in Jekyll.

[Mattberg]

Funny how the Alabama, SC and GA people all feel the same way about the topic... :rolleyes: And if you could read, I gave you two sources for confirmation. Butch Kummer and Rick Balderson. So take that empty argument of lack of source and shove it. Your attempt to discredit me considering I already gave you confirming sources is low and calculated. But keep trying to drive it home. Typical of unintelligent officials who think they can twist everything around. You just want the ORIGINAL source so you can launch a reprisal. Despicable refuse.

Florida folks...get ready for a fight. It&#39;s clear to me now that this is just a blatant attempt to force the Florida drivers out of Florida. I believe the line in the sand has been drawn.

[apexingsupra]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 19 2005, 02:49 AM
Funny how the Alabama, SC and GA people all feel the same way about the topic... :rolleyes: And if you could read, I gave you two sources for confirmation. Butch Kummer and Rick Balderson. So take that empty argument of lack of source and shove it. Your attempt to discredit me considering I already gave you confirming sources is low and calculated. But keep trying to drive it home. Typical of unintelligent officials who think they can twist everything around. You just want the ORIGINAL source so you can launch a reprisal. Despicable refuse.

Florida folks...get ready for a fight. It&#39;s clear to me now that this is just a blatant attempt to force the Florida drivers out of Florida. I believe the line in the sand has been drawn.

65927


Well, I guess I will give them a call. Rick is plugged into my cell phone and I talk to him several times a year. I see and know Butch too. Have you taken your medication for the day yet? Whew.

Barry H.

[Mattberg]

Isn&#39;t it funny that slowly but surely no one is denying this proposal existis and it&#39;s being supported by people from the regions that would benefit at the expense of Florida? Friggin&#39; hillarious. Typical SCCA politics. I love the "have you taken your medication insults?" too. Any way to discredit someone that gets in the way of their ultimate goal. Is there any medication to take for shafting an entire state of drivers Barry?

[chuck baader]

One comment for this thread...when you fight a pig in a pigpen, after a while you realize the pig likes it :bash_1_: The best thing we can do is ignore this rabble rouser. Chuck

[apexingsupra]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 19 2005, 03:14 AM
Isn&#39;t it funny that slowly but surely no one is denying this proposal existis and it&#39;s being supported by people from the regions that would benefit at the expense of Florida? Friggin&#39; hillarious. Typical SCCA politics. I love the "have you taken your medication insults?" too. Any way to discredit someone that gets in the way of their ultimate goal. Is there any medication to take for shafting an entire state of drivers Barry?

65930


Sorry I had a hard time reading the so many posts that you had going I did miss Rick and Butch. I plan on talking to them both and they are both honorable people. I talk to Rick enough that his cell # is on my cell phone. Neither has expressed anything publicly in any SEDIV meeting pro or con that I know of. You are still railing on something that is not a proposed plan of action. You are the one who intially cast insults. Not me. But enough said. The last time I checked Florida and CFR were part of a division. One that should try and work together to solve our divisional needs and work with other regions. It is apperent that you want to split the division. It has nothing to do with the newer or smaller racing regions "underperforming". Our races have been financial successes in our three year racing tenure. Part of it is about being able to get a race on the calendar in the first place. You can have all the regionals you want can&#39;t you? So is it you want to keep all those SARRC races and to heck with the rest of the division?

That reminds me of another monty python movie. What is it? "The life of Brian". "Splitter".

Barry H.

[apexingsupra]

Originally posted by chuck baader@Nov 19 2005, 03:23 AM
One comment for this thread...when you fight a pig in a pigpen, after a while you realize the pig likes it :bash_1_: The best thing we can do is ignore this rabble rouser. Chuck

65931



Oink. I have said what I need to. It is factual. I agree. It is 9:30. What are doing up so late? LOL. :P
Barry H.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by chuck baader@Nov 19 2005, 03:23 AM
One comment for this thread...when you fight a pig in a pigpen, after a while you realize the pig likes it :bash_1_: The best thing we can do is ignore this rabble rouser. Chuck

65931



I&#39;d love for all of the SC, GA and AL people to ignore me. Then I could communicate what&#39;s going on to the FL folks without you guys interceding and trying to convince them this proposal is a good thing. Instead of trying to force FL drivers and workers out of FL why don&#39;t you try marketing in your own regions?

[tom_sprecher]

Mattberg. Who is this guy? What a tool.

Go troll someplace else, we don&#39;t need it here.

[Mattberg]

Yet another Atlanta member chiming in. Mark my words FL drivers and workers. The effort to get you out of FL to the other regions is full swing and being promoted here by those who will benefit at our expense. Act early, act often and support keeping all the races we have here in FL in place. :023:

With that said I think I&#39;ll go work on the race car for a while for the SARRC races here in FLORIDA next weeked that should have around 400 entries and plenty of workers! :happy204:

GO FLORIDA!

[dickita15]

Originally posted by tom_sprecher@Nov 19 2005, 10:39 AM
Mattberg. Who is this guy? What a tool.

65958


Tom, Matt is legendary on boards thru out cyber space. He is insulting and then takes offence if he is insulted. He has a long history of making outrageous claims and is particualy offensive to anyone who contributes to administrating SCCA. He is actually pretty calm on this board, some of his stuff on the prod board is down right funny.

I actually don&#39;t mind arguing with him in person but on web boards it is down right painful.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by dickita15@Nov 19 2005, 03:16 PM
Tom, Matt is legendary on boards thru out cyber space. He is insulting and then takes offence if he is insulted. He has a long history of making outrageous claims and is particualy offensive to anyone who contributes to administrating SCCA. He is actually pretty calm on this board, some of his stuff on the prod board is down right funny.

I actually don&#39;t mind arguing with him in person but on web boards it is down right painful.

65962


Legendary? Why thank you Dick! I&#39;m flattered. I don&#39;t mind the insults either. :D Didn&#39;t I just get called a pig? :D So insult away folks! All I care about is not taking races, racers and workers away from Florida. B)

And just curious, what outrageous claims have I made Dick? As I recall they were all pretty real issues just as this one is. Saying my claims are outrageous is usually the only defense people have when I expose something. You see Dick, this plan does exist and has been confirmed now by three regional officials, John Anderson, Rick Balderson and Butch Kummer. But two days ago it was one of my "outrageous claims". Next, they tried to deflect the focus saying my details were inaccurate. When the details were confirmed accurate, it was positioned as a plan to help new regions. When that argument didn&#39;t hold water it was reduced down to FL not being a team player and wanting to split from the divsion. What&#39;s next? Hopefully it will all go away, they can claim it never existed and they can think of it as a Mattberg outrageous claim. I&#39;d be satisfied with that! :happy204:

One thing is for sure, a lot of club officials think twice these days before doing things! I think that&#39;s a pretty good thing.

Gettin&#39; cold up there yet? Gotta&#39; go work on the car. Take care! :023:

GO FLORIDA! :happy204:

[Ron]

Lets all take a break here. I run out of Atlanta. I have finished in the top 10 in the SARRC in ITB the last two years and I have never headed south of my border. Maybe if there were fewer races everywhere I would travel south to run against some of the Florida crowd. David Lera and Paul Ronie, my main competitors this year, traveled to "my tracks" but I am embarrassed that I never went south to there tracks. Shame on me. One other thing to consider is that I am spoiled living in Atlanta right in the middle of the region and most tracks are 5 to 9 hours away. Infact, only Miami is 12 hours adn that is the only tow that scares me.
All I am saying is that I want to here more before I pass judgement.

Just want to race

Ron Sattele

[Chris Wire]

I don&#39;t subscribe to conspiracy theories, and I don&#39;t really see what the problem is with the "proposed" plan. (Has it even been proposed?)

Having said that, what is the problem with having a SARRC champ that actually raced in more than one state? As it is, a Florida driver (and I&#39;m one) could race 8 races in FL, pull out his 6 best and head off to Roebling as the SARRC points leader without ever having raced out of the state. Does that strike anyone else as a bit odd? Now I wouldn&#39;t call it unfair; it is what it is, and Floridians are truly blessed with the number and quality of the tracks we have. Not unfair, just odd.

Personally, I don&#39;t run any entire series, and likely won&#39;t in the near future (with the possible exception of the ECR) but I don&#39;t see a problem with asking drivers to run a more diverse schedule to crown a champion.

ED MCMAHON: Washington DC and Mattberg&#39;s head.

KARNAC: Name 2 places where politics never sleep.

[Catch22]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 18 2005, 10:49 PM
It&#39;s clear to me now that this is just a blatant attempt to force the Florida drivers out of Florida.
65927


What would be so damned awful about that?
Its the South Atlantic championship, not the Florida championship. But currently a driver can win without ever leaving that state.

I really don&#39;t care if you guys start your own party down there. It wouldn&#39;t be that much different from the way things are right now.
I would however like to actually occassionally race against some of the guys from Florida who are often up high on the points list. Right now if I want to do that I need to go to Florida.

Start your own "Florida Road Racing Championship"
Honestly, we won&#39;t lose any sleep over it and it will minimally change the way things are right now. Alot of you guys won&#39;t even come up for the ARRC.
Look at the SARRC ITA, ITB and ITC points and then look and see how many of those drivers actually raced outside of Florida in 2005.
Its not too damned many.

[Toni]

Sometime you guys might learn not to shoot the messenger. Matt gave you information to use to keep your racing convenient and close to home.

I was in the meeting. I heard the proposal made by members of the Buccaneer Region. It was supported by members of the Alabama Region and others. The Director of Area 12 tabled the discussion and set a time of Friday night of the Jekyll meeting weekend in January to come to a determination about the proposal. The gathering is limited to the REs and the two Directors of SEDiv.

The proposal was to limit the number of races that a region could put on to:
1 National
2 regionals
1 driver’s school
Limit the number of regions that can put on a race to those regions who currently have a date on the SEDiv schedule.

It had nothing to do with SARRC. SARRC already has a limit to the number of races that a Region can put on – 4.
It had nothing to do with ECR. ECR already has a limit to the number of races per track – 1 per track.
The GCR limits the number of nationals per track to two. SEDiv has a waiver from the SCCA Board of Directors to put on the SEDiv Double National at a track where a third National occurs.

I have nothing against Buccaneer Region. I work all of their races. I raced all of their races when I was a racer. I have made financial contributions to the tracks previous two paving funds. I have nothing against Alabama Region except to wish they would race at Barbra. It is a great place but I understand why they don’t race there.

This proposal, if passed, would seriously change your racing. The Pro IT at Road Atlanta would go away. How could they have a series with only two races? You have to finish 4 regional races to keep your national license. You will have to travel to keep your license. Not only will this put limits on free enterprise by Regions to provide a racing product to their racers but it will also give other racing organizations open dates at tracks. Atlanta Region has already lost the Labor Day date at Road Atlanta to a group that pays more and makes more revenue for Road Atlanta. There will be another group ready to take the race date should SCCA decline to keep the dates they have. Which National will Central Florida give up, Sebring or Daytona? Will Atlanta give up a SARRC race or the ARRC? Which regional will North Carolina give up, the 13 hour or the SARRC/MARRS? They would only be able to have 2 regional races.

There are 18 regions in the Southeast Division. 18 people who will decide where and when you will race. Did they ask for your opinion? If you wish to give the track dates to other groups, then you might just find that you will have nowhere convenient to race SCCA.

Thanks Matt. You did a service for the racers by bringing this into the light and out of the closed door meeting.

Toni Creighton

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Toni@Nov 19 2005, 09:17 PM
Sometime you guys might learn not to shoot the messenger. Matt gave you information to use to keep your racing convenient and close to home.

Toni Creighton

66028


Maybe sending a messenger that many people perceive as the boy that cried wolf would make for a better reception. Oh ya, placing the topic exclusively in the Sotheast section might have gotten you someplace too.

AB
Been on 3 National Committies, 1 local and a Regional BoD and still have yet to get any payola. I must be doing someting wrong. :blink:

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 20 2005, 02:38 AM
Maybe sending a messenger that many people perceive as the boy that cried wolf would make for a better reception. Oh ya, placing the topic exclusively in the Sotheast section might have gotten you someplace too.

AB
Been on 3 National Committies, 1 local and a Regional BoD and still have yet to get any payola. I must be doing someting wrong. :blink:

66029



AHA! It was Bucanner region! I knew it! Thank you very much Ms. Creighton. That pretty much confirms just about everything I was speculating on. Keep an eye on this Florida folks. It&#39;s real.

Andy, what have I cried wolf about that wasn&#39;t substantiated as real? I&#39;ve asked a bunch of people that same question lately who made claims like yours and have yet to hear anything. :happy204:

The Florida Road Racing Championship....hmmm. Sounds pretty good to me. SARRC drivers from outside of Florida would be begging to get in! :023: Come see the huge number of cars that show up next weekend at Sebring! :happy204: Lat race there I had 108 cars in my race group. Eat your hearts out Buccaneer region! :D

I know IT doesn&#39;t care about Nationals but SC, GA and AL folks, come on down and watch three National races with 350-500 cars this year. I know you don&#39;t get to see that up north and it&#39;s a hoot! :happy204:


GO FLORIDA! :happy204:

[Chris Wire]

I was in the meeting. I heard the proposal made by members of the Buccaneer Region. It was supported by members of the Alabama Region and others. The Director of Area 12 tabled the discussion and set a time of Friday night of the Jekyll meeting weekend in January to come to a determination about the proposal. The gathering is limited to the REs and the two Directors of SEDiv.

The proposal was to limit the number of races that a region could put on to:
1 National
2 regionals
1 driver’s school
Limit the number of regions that can put on a race to those regions who currently have a date on the SEDiv schedule.

Why would this proposal have any traction at all? If all of the current regions would be forced to seriously reduce their schedule, how is it this could even reach the point of serious discussion. It should have been punted down the hall months ago.

This is folly. Is is puzzling beyond reason to expect every region to give up races and then not add any new regions that don&#39;t already have a calender date on the SEDiv schedule? Does that make any sense to anyone?

CFR&#39;s schedule would lose:

January or May National
February, June and November regionals

It would look like this:

Jan. - nada (Nat&#39;l gone)
Feb. - nada (Regional/SARRC gone)
March - nada
April - Driver&#39;s school
May - Nat&#39;l/ECR, Daytona
June - nada (Regional gone)
July - nada (Driver&#39;s school gone)
Aug. - Double SARRC, Daytona
Sept. - SARRC/ECR, Sebring (Late Sept regional @ Daytona gone)
Oct. - Regional (Season ending points race), Sebring
Nov. - Regional w/ SARRC &#39;06
Dec. - nada

In a word - YAAAAAWWWWWWNNNNNNNN !!!!!!!! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Mr. Balderson will be hearing from me very soon. I don&#39;t see this as going anywhere, it is way beyond any reason. I might support each region surrendering one date to aid an attempt to bring smaller regions into the Club Racing program, but to handcuff all of the regions like this serves no purpose. According to Toni&#39;s description, it doesn&#39;t serve the needs of any regions that do not yet have a race date on the calender, it cuts dangerously in to the revenue stream that most regions rely on to fund other club activities, and it virtually kills any idea of a legitimate Regional championship. I mean, who would want to be called the champion of a schedule that looks like the one above?

I&#39;m sorry, this is just out there like Pluto. I can&#39;t believe it will ever get off the ground.

[ben racin]

Hey, Matt:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/

[Mattberg]

Chris,

I agree with you 100% but I&#39;ve seen some strange policies get pushed through that seemed to make little or no sense and some even more outrageous ones dicussed and tabled. I recently heard about a proposal to get any and all team members on pit lane in firesuits! :rolleyes: I&#39;m still pushing for shorts! :023:

And there IS a region, that benefits or at least a track that stands to IMO. It&#39;s a simple, but misguided, business model. Buccaneer region happens to own that track and under the proposal they keep all their races because those at Roebling Road that exceed the policy limit are currently hosted by SEDIV or other regions and do not count towards Buccaneer&#39;s count. Furthermore they have two additional regions in the "elite eight" that are under the limit on races, both of which currently run their races at Roebling, South Carolina and Alabama. Getting any clearer? Here&#39;s the dig and what I see as the business model being contemplated.

There are two problems for Roebling and perhaps less so for Atlanta. First is simple competition. Their races are constantly competing for entrants with FL on opposing weekends or what I call "decision races" where two locations are within a week or two and you have to choose (see example below). Roebling tends to lose out when up against A Sebring or Daytona. The second problem is workers. I think their problem is far worse than ours and when you have to start closing down the track, no money comes in.

Just to illustrate, South Carolina Region had to cancel its SARRC race this weekend at guess where? Roebling Road. And I&#39;m sure they probably blame Florida for that and lose a bunch of money. They claimed not enough workers but I doubt there was a whole lot of interest from workers or drivers for a race in Savannah in late November with a HUGE SARRC weekend at Sebring the following week.

Now if you cut back the FL races you accomplish two goals. One you eliminate the competition. If we have no choice, worker or driver, we have to go to Roebling and Atlanta OR forget about SARRC or Nationals and just run FL races. Assuming many will give in (bad assumption and big mistake I think) Roebling will increase their car counts and workers from FL. Not only that but with all the regions in the "elite eight" that already use Roebling and are under the count, you can add even more dates without competition. Theoretically. you could end up with 16 races between two tracks, Roebling and Atlanta, divied up between Atlanta, Buccaneer, SC and AL regions all under the proposed race limits, while FL ends up with six races at four tracks. What was the term I was given... "A more even distribution of racing." That doesn&#39;t sound very even to me. :blink: My thought is that Roebling ends up with 10 or 11 of those and Atlanta remains static with no loss or gain from current other than shedding the June National they don&#39;t want anyway. The bottom line is a race at Roebling is a race for the Buccaneer region.

This is not a Black Helicopter deal Chris. It&#39;s just plain numbers and business and an attempt to redistribute market share and limit competition both in terms of customers, market share and workers at the expense of FL customers and workers. It should be thrown out and not spoken of again but that&#39;s not happening. This is what happens when a region owns a track and why it should never happen. People that can&#39;t make it profitable are stuck with a noon-performing asset and with inferior marketing skills are trying to make it perform. So and they end up with a lame brained plan like this one. We just need to stay on top of it and make sure it doesn&#39;t happen. Unfortunately I think we would get outvoted. :angry: Looks like it&#39;s already 4-2 and I don&#39;t think we get much sympathy or votes going any farther North. :(


GO FLORIDA! :happy204:

[Mattberg]

Ben Racin... See you&#39;re stalking again. At least your sophmoric attempt at humor is better than your threatening e-mails. You must really be infatuated with me. Everywhere I go you show up as an anonymous new member with some lame post having nothing to do with anything but your jealousy that while I&#39;m racing you sit at home dreaming about it. Do you sit around all day waiting for me to come on-line? That&#39;s creepy dude. :blink:

Keep delivering those pizzas and save your money! :023: I&#39;ll rent you a car when you&#39;re ready for the real thing. I need to go finish working on the cars for Sebring so I&#39;ll leave you to your Swanson Hungry-Man and "Who&#39;s the Boss" marathon. You really should find something more constructive to do. Try taking those old appliances out on the front lawn to the junkyard. :D Have a nice day. :D


GO FLORIDA! :happy204:

[pvyoung]

I don&#39;t usually post on this forum because I don&#39;t drive a IT car. I drive a FP Miata. I am a SEDIV driver. I have National license, but race only Regional races. I started racing in South Carolina, but now I live in Florida. I&#39;ve done some research and given this proposal a lot of thought. I&#39;d like to apologize in advance for the length of this post. I should not also note that I did not believe Matt at first, but Toni Creighton&#39;s post on this and the Prod forums convinced me. The following is a copy of my post on the Prod Forum.

1. Purpose of the Proposal
It appears that the purpose of the proposal is to solve a scheduling problem within the SEDIV and the constant workers problem. This would resolve these problems, however, the costs associated with this proposal seems excessive. The scheduling problem could be relieved to some extent by reducing the 450 mile restriction to 300. With the cost of gas, the 450 mile restriction does need to be reviewed. Adding races will make the workers problem worse. Paying them, giving them free lodging and meals, paying for their memberships, and other enticements may help with this continuing problem. Every volunteer-based organization has this problem. I have heard suggestions that every driver provide a worker. I don&#39;t know how well this will work, but this will relieve some of the worker&#39;s problem. But details on how this would work is not clear, especially since many drivers do not have crews or other assistance.

2. Effect on Race Schedule

I added up the races scheduled for 2006 in SEDIV. There are 10 Nationals, 66 Regionals and 8 driver&#39;s schools for a total of 84 events. As you can tell, most of the races are on double or triple weekends. The regions in order of most to least events (races plus driver&#39;s schools) are Central Florida (17), Atlanta (17), Florida (16), Central Carolina (12), North Carolina (9), Buccanneer (6), SEDIV (3), South Carolina (2), and Alabama (2).

With this proposal and assuming all the "racing" regions use all of their weekends, the total events will be 32 events. Adding in the 3 SEDIV events (2 Nationals and 1 Regional), the total is 35. This is less than half of the current number of races. The breakdown will be 10 Nationals, 17 Regionals and 8 schools.

3. Scheduling

According to the SARRC rules, no races may be held on the same or consecutive my be held within 450 miles of each other. This rule was apparently passed in 1/04. I could not find any other scheduling rule.

All the tracks, except for maybe Homestead, are within 450 miles of Roebling. This includes the Nashville track, which I am assuming the Tennessee Region will want to get certified for SCCA races. If Tennessee starts to hold races, the numbers of events goes to 11 Nationals, 19 Regionals and 9 schools, assuming they can run 1 National, 2 Regionals and 1 Drivers School in their first year as a racing Region.

4. Discussion

The hardest hit will be the drivers who race only Regionals. I don&#39;t know what the IT, SPU, or SPO drivers will do. Some may convert their cars to Prod, but I&#39;m afraid that we will lose many of them to NASA.

The new drivers will lose, too. They, except for the rent-a-racers, would have just spent many thousands on their cars, driver&#39;s gear, trailer, etc. I don&#39;t know if many will want spend that kind of money and not enjoy their investments. That is, if you can call a race car an investment. Again, afraid that we will lose many of them to NASA.

If this proposal passes, then, you can expect more Regional-level drivers at the Nationals. These drivers will be trying to keep their license while minmizing their travel expenses. I know I would strongly consider it, even though I hate being a rolling chicane. :bash_1_:

The most active racing Regioins will lose, too. Central Florida, Atlanta, Florida, Central Carolina, and North Carolina will lose most of their races. Central Florida and Florida may decide to form a separate Division, if this proposal is approved. I&#39;m afraid it would be the South Atlantic Division. It&#39;s sprint race championship would probably be the SARRC as SARRC is the initials for the South Atlantic Road Race Championship.

5. Conclusions
I don&#39;t think the proposal to limit the number of races is a good solution for the scheduling and worker problems because of the potential costs to the Division. I would like to encourage all SEDIV racers to contact their RE&#39;s and their fellow racers to make sure this proposal is not inacted.

Perry Young
FP Miata
Central Florida Region

[Andy Bettencourt]

And you know what? There are good proposals and bad proposals in all aspects of life and business, including SCCA. The problem I have is that every one Matt brings to the table has overtones of someone trying to railroad someone else - and it is always the SCCA volunteers who are getting accused. This guy had a secret meeting and that guy won&#39;t show me his expense reports, blah, blah, blah.

Any one of us who doesn&#39;t own a black helicopter could have written this &#39;issue&#39; up in such a way that was informative, asked for reaction and then action - without making it seem like the drivers were getting screwed by a closed-door, double-secret-probationary group who had something personal to gain.

AB

[Mattberg]

Andy,

Name one issue that wasn&#39;t real. Third time I&#39;ve asked and you still have no answer. "Matt always does this he always says that, he always...." About what? Pick a topic. If you&#39;re gong to throw out accusations, back them up like I do.

Just like this issue. Everyone says it&#39;s not real and then...aha. It is. Just like every other one. This is about Roebling Road paying their bills. Plain and simple. No black helicopters, no scandal. Just an underhanded attempt to get business from a region that does not have the talent to cultivate their own market and has absolutley no business owning a race track.

[pvyoung]

Andy,

You&#39;re right. There are good and bad proposals everyday and everywehere. We need to try to find and implement the good ones and prevent the bad ones from being implemented. I don&#39;t see black helicopters on this proposal. I see some people who were trying to come up with a solution to some problems. They should be commended for their efforts. However, this solution is not a good one. This is especially true for your fellow IT drivers.

I have never met Matt. I only know him through his posts. I would suspect the same can be said for you. And like you, I take "out of the blue", "the sky is falling" posts from Matt with a grain of salt. I think you can read that in my posts on the Prod forum concerning this proposal.

I have met Toni Creighton on a few occasions. My impression of her is that she is a straightshooter and does not cry wolf. She, not Matt, convinced me that the proposals were for real. My own research and analysis convinced me that the proposal was not a good one and should be opposed.

Perry Young
FP Miata

[Andy Bettencourt]

It&#39;s not about issues being &#39;real&#39; Matt. It&#39;s about the way you portray them. How about the whole Runoffs expense report thing...did you really want to know what was on them (why I have no idea) or did you just want to shake a tree and see what fell out? Everyone is guilty before proven innocent in your eyes. It ain&#39;t the way to &#39;work&#39; within a volunteer environment. I am all for holding people accountable, but your methods are rediculous.

I am done with this thread. The opinions of others here and on every other BB speak for themselves.

AB

[Mattberg]

Andy, the club still refuses to release that information and there&#39;s still a lot of money unaccounted for. It&#39;s a very real issue. They claim it&#39;s confidential and members of the club have no right to be informed. You make the call. I&#39;d sure like to know where all that money goes but we&#39;re never going to know because you all are happy to let them use it however the want without accountability.

By the way, I pick my issues carefully. I get so many leaks and leads from people wanting me to fire out for their cause while they hide behind anonymity. Most of them are self serving interests that want me to be the bad boy to get something they want done. More often than not it&#39;s unsubstantiated and you never hear about it from me.

No, I make sure they&#39;re guilty or doing something bad before I take on an issue. That way I can be confident I&#39;m fighting for a just cause. I researched this topic too. Confirmed it through multiple sources before I said a word. Got lied to by a couple and realized there was more going on than met the eye.

[Capt.John]

I have read these posts and my head is spinning around much like the young lady in the Exorsist. As the RE of the Fl. Region I feel compelled to speak out and state what I believe is true. I have already had a lengthy telephone conversation with Matt.... he is a member of the Fl.Region.... and I&#39;m sure he won&#39;t find anything new and different in this post. First of all, there was NO Secret Meeting!! During the course of the normal mid-year meeting a request was made to discuss voluntary reductions in the number of races being held by the present racing regions.The difficulty in staffing these events per the GCR is becoming more and more of an issue. Simply stated, we are running out of volunteers for the various specialties. Neither my Race Director nor myself were opposed to discussion dealing with a scaling down of the number of events. The FL. Region is not desireous of racing in south Fl. during Jul-Aug-Sept because of the high temperatures and the uncertain weather conditions......hurricanes. We have structured our sched, so that we combine SARRCS with ECR&#39;s or ECR&#39;s with drivers schools etc. Bottom line is that we have a full complement of SARRC races (4) and a complete number of ECR&#39;s (3) ....ECR&#39;s are not one per track but two per region and up to three if available, total not to exceed 15 with one reserved for AL Region. The proviso is also for a double ECR, location to be determined, upon need. I&#39;m not sure what constitutes need. Fl. Region will have a full sched of events: (1) National---at HST, (4) SARRC&#39;S , a Drivers Shool and (3) ECR&#39;s. This is what we had this year and what is on tap for next year. Unfortunately we have already lost one SARRC for 2006 due to the recent visit by Fred Flintstone&#39;s wife. We will obviously attempt to arrive at a substitute replacement date. WE want to give the drivers a full sched of series events, but we are not interested in racing each and every month. Would I support a one National, one drivers school, two regional total card per region? Not only no, but HELL NO!! WE are trying to offer the drivers the most bang for their buck, same number of quality series events without having to make as many trips to the track. Gosh, you might even find out that you enjoy another hobby as well.

As far as drivers not being aware of what transpired at mid-year in ATL there was no cloak of secrecy thrown over anything in this Region. This was noted at our BOD meeting....you got to submit a report if you want to get your expense money..... Our BOD meetings are open to any member of the Region but very few ever attend. The same applies to our monthly General membership meetings. We do not don on dark robes, and meet on a misty Scottish moor late at night and offer up incantations in a strange tongue to keep our actions steeped in secrecy. If anyone calls their call is taken or returned. E-mails are answered or a phone call placed to whoever has a question. Anything else is not acceptable.

The motion was tabled to be continued at the Jekyll meeting in Jan. that was really the only sensible approach. That would enable people to get input from those in the region.....not only the drivers.....who could look at the matter and be prepared to offer intelligent thoughts and suggestions, through their RE when the time arrives. A snap knee-jerk decision in Jul. was not the answer. Talk with your RE and let him or her know your feelings.

So there you have one RE&#39;s thoughts and opinions on the subject. No secrecy, no witchcraft, no hidden agenda. Time to go, there is a black helicopter in the back yard offering me a lift to a Mexican Restaurant so I can make it accross the border.

John Anderson
Reg Exec
Fl.Region-SCCA

[apexingsupra]

what John said.

Barry H.

[Mattberg]

He said "Hell no!"

Keep trying Alabama. We&#39;re not levaing the opportunity open for Roebling to get 11 of the top races! We&#39;ll be staying in Florida. You guys can keep cancelling races.


GO FLORIDA! :happy204:

[apexingsupra]

What John said. John I don&#39;t even think you can say the proposed idea was "tabled". There was never a motion made to even consider the idea. It was just discussed. For it to be "tabled" there would have been a motion on it, discussion, and then it would be voted up, down, or tabled. I don&#39;t remember such a motion nor do I think the minutes of the mid-year meeting will reflect such a motion being made.

As to the claim by Matt that the "Elite Eight" are trying to ban the non-racing regions from putting on a club race that is just plain silly. No discussion like that ever occurred nor does the math add up. The non-racing regions have a vote just like the racing regions. How can eight regions outvote ten regions? The math does not add up? Nor was there any motion made by anyone to such an effect and therefore there is no minutes on the SEDIV record about such a thing because it did not happen. Nor is that something to be proposed at the annual meeting. If if that fiction were fact I would oppose it. Again my region may possible help another region with its first club race. Again another issue Matt claims as fact that is fiction. Capt. John can verify that.

It is not "all about Buccaneer". It is about division wide issues of not enough workers/stewards, a very crowded race calendar, and the desire of some regions with either no race or one race to get a decent chance to have a date that at least potentially won&#39;t be a loser versus regions that have a bunch of races. As a division we are trying to work out those issues which I thought is what REs are suppose to do. What we did agree to do at the annual meeting is discuss the problem again.

Matt, I don&#39;t agree with Buccaneer idea either (not that you asked) because it does not fit what my region wants in the near future either. You can even ask Capt. John about that too. But I will listen to an idea. My point is also that you have made all kinds of outlandish claims about what happened in this "secret meeting" when there was never one and you have put out a lot of incorrect facts.
Barry H.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 20 2005, 01:34 PM
Andy,

Name one issue that wasn&#39;t real. Third time I&#39;ve asked and you still have no answer. "Matt always does this he always says that, he always...." About what? Pick a topic. If you&#39;re gong to throw out accusations, back them up like I do.


66066


@#@&$#%& Matt! Now you owe me a freakin keyboard, cuz this one if full of sticky orange juice that I was (stupidly) drinking when I read THAT gem!

THAT line is a classic...

Hey, at least I wasn&#39;t using my laptop.

It&#39;s just a Dell, shoot me a PM and I&#39;ll forward my shipping address....

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Nov 20 2005, 07:10 PM
@#@&$#%& Matt! Now you owe me a freakin keyboard, cuz this one if full of sticky orange juice that I was (stupidly) drinking when I read THAT gem!

THAT line is a classic...

Hey, at least I wasn&#39;t using my laptop.

It&#39;s just a Dell, shoot me a PM and I&#39;ll forward my shipping address....

66082


And you don&#39;t name any either...

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by apexingsupra@Nov 20 2005, 07:03 PM
What John said. John I don&#39;t even think you can say the proposed idea was "tabled". There was never a motion made to even consider the idea. It was just discussed. For it to be "tabled" there would have been a motion on it, discussion, and then it would be voted up, down, or tabled. I don&#39;t remember such a motion nor do I think the minutes of the mid-year meeting will reflect such a motion being made.

As to the claim by Matt that the "Elite Eight" are trying to ban the non-racing regions from putting on a club race that is just plain silly. No discussion like that ever occurred nor does the math add up. The non-racing regions have a vote just like the racing regions. How can eight regions outvote ten regions? The math does not add up? Nor was there any motion made by anyone to such an effect and therefore there is no minutes on the SEDIV record about such a thing because it did not happen. Nor is that something to be proposed at the annual meeting. If if that fiction were fact I would oppose it. Again my region may possible help another region with its first club race. Again another issue Matt claims as fact that is fiction. Capt. John can verify that.

It is not "all about Buccaneer". It is about division wide issues of not enough workers/stewards, a very crowded race calendar, and the desire of some regions with either no race or one race to get a decent chance to have a date that at least potentially won&#39;t be a loser versus regions that have a bunch of races. As a division we are trying to work out those issues which I thought is what REs are suppose to do. What we did agree to do at the annual meeting is discuss the problem again.

Matt, I don&#39;t agree with Buccaneer idea either (not that you asked) because it does not fit what my region wants in the near future either. You can even ask Capt. John about that too. But I will listen to an idea. My point is also that you have made all kinds of outlandish claims about what happened in this "secret meeting" when there was never one and you have put out a lot of incorrect facts.
Barry H.

66081


What facts were incorrect? That Roebling could theoretically wind up with 11 races while everybody else gets 3? That 16 races could end up split between RA and Roebling and the other two divsions that call that area home while we get reduced to 6? If we had less stewards and more workers we&#39;d be fine but we&#39;ve made all our workers stewards. Tell me, why do you need 27 stewards at a race for 110 cars? The only time I know that we had a serious problem in FL was a few years ago when the workers and officials abandoned us to go do a pro race. Mike Cox mobilized us and asked us all to work a race or two. I said Hell yea. Turned out that we didn&#39;t even have to but more than willing and ready. I think every FL driver would be more than willing to instead of giving up races. And why are we finding out about this four months after the fact? Why didn&#39;t you just come out and say dirvers need to do something about this. We would and we will. Give me the flags and a call before my race group! :023:

[apexingsupra]

Originally posted by Toni@Nov 20 2005, 02:17 AM
Sometime you guys might learn not to shoot the messenger. Matt gave you information to use to keep your racing convenient and close to home.

I was in the meeting. I heard the proposal made by members of the Buccaneer Region. It was supported by members of the Alabama Region and others. The Director of Area 12 tabled the discussion and set a time of Friday night of the Jekyll meeting weekend in January to come to a determination about the proposal. The gathering is limited to the REs and the two Directors of SEDiv.

The proposal was to limit the number of races that a region could put on to:
1 National
2 regionals
1 driver’s school
Limit the number of regions that can put on a race to those regions who currently have a date on the SEDiv schedule.

It had nothing to do with SARRC. SARRC already has a limit to the number of races that a Region can put on – 4.
It had nothing to do with ECR. ECR already has a limit to the number of races per track – 1 per track.
The GCR limits the number of nationals per track to two. SEDiv has a waiver from the SCCA Board of Directors to put on the SEDiv Double National at a track where a third National occurs.

I have nothing against Buccaneer Region. I work all of their races. I raced all of their races when I was a racer. I have made financial contributions to the tracks previous two paving funds. I have nothing against Alabama Region except to wish they would race at Barbra. It is a great place but I understand why they don’t race there.

This proposal, if passed, would seriously change your racing. The Pro IT at Road Atlanta would go away. How could they have a series with only two races? You have to finish 4 regional races to keep your national license. You will have to travel to keep your license. Not only will this put limits on free enterprise by Regions to provide a racing product to their racers but it will also give other racing organizations open dates at tracks. Atlanta Region has already lost the Labor Day date at Road Atlanta to a group that pays more and makes more revenue for Road Atlanta. There will be another group ready to take the race date should SCCA decline to keep the dates they have. Which National will Central Florida give up, Sebring or Daytona? Will Atlanta give up a SARRC race or the ARRC? Which regional will North Carolina give up, the 13 hour or the SARRC/MARRS? They would only be able to have 2 regional races.

There are 18 regions in the Southeast Division. 18 people who will decide where and when you will race. Did they ask for your opinion? If you wish to give the track dates to other groups, then you might just find that you will have nowhere convenient to race SCCA.

Thanks Matt. You did a service for the racers by bringing this into the light and out of the closed door meeting.

Toni Creighton

66028


It is interesting that two people can attend the same meeting but come away with a different memory or impression but that happens. I want to clarify what the Alabama region "supported" at the last meeting. It supported dialogue on the need to possibly trim the calendar some by regions that have a lot of races to allow other regions who want to get on the calendar. I never on behalf of the Alabama region said "I want to adopt the Buccaneer proposal". It was never put up for a vote or a motion. I don&#39;t even agree with the proposal by Buccaneer but I respect their trying to come up with a solution. My region has no current desire to put on a national. I don&#39;t even think we could nor do we want a driver&#39;s school. That proposal does not work for the Alabama region but I listened to what they had to say.

If anyone said they wanted to prevent other non-racing regions from being able to put a race on the calendar then I must have been in the men&#39;s room. I never heard that. The point about trying to open up some dates on the calendar is to let non-racing regions who would like to club race get a chance to get a date. And that is about SARRC because SARRC is the success formula for most races in SEDIV. SARRC has mileage rules and no event on the same or consecutive weekend which limits the number of events and therefore who can have a SARRC by virtue of the regions who already block the calendar by their "traditional date" which is another rule. That has been the biggest issue for my region that last two years. Trying to get a date squeezed into a calendar that does not conflict with a SARRC rule. Just putting on a regional these days does not attract the number of entrants necessary at least from my prior analysis.

I would vote absolute "no" to such a proposal to limit non-racing regions and I can&#39;t imagine such a thought not getting shot down. My region has been in informal discussions with the Chattanooga region to potentially co-sanction a race with them so why would I support a "ban" on them. My region co-sanctioned a Time Trial/driver&#39;s school with the TVR region this year to get their feet wet managing such an event and it was a huge success. We may do it again next year even though they are sufficiently versed in how to do it now.

What is being discussed is not some dire re-scrambling of everyone&#39;s traditional dates. I don&#39;t expect the ARRC to go away from its date just as I would expect North Carolina to continue to run it double MARRS double SARRC. Simply put there is a need for some compromise which is what happened at the last meeting. My region had a July SARRC race date that conflicted with Florida. All we wanted was to put on one race. Florida has a lot more than that. I met with Capt. John and we talked about it. Ultimately the Florida region said fine, we will get off that date which is in the dead of summer anyhow. That is the type of compromise I am looking for not some wholesale OK everybody&#39;s traditional dates are now gone and now we start filling in the calendar. I do know that we can not just keep adding race dates as more regions want to race or newer tracks open up like Dragonsridge near Old Dominion. We don&#39;t have the resources and we would be diluting a fixed racing "pie" within the division that I think hurts all the racing regions.

I do not expect the Buccaneer idea to be an actual proposal at the annual meeting. What I do expect from my remembrance is that we have a meeting to discuss the crowded calendar, limited resources, and how to open up some dates for non-racing regions to get a shot at racing or possibly allowing the Alabama region to get a decent date on another SARRC. I don&#39;t think that is asking for too much. I wish we could go back to Barber&#39;s too but I don&#39;t think it is in the cards in the very near future.

Thanks.

Barry H.

Barry H.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 20 2005, 02:19 PM
And you don&#39;t name any either...

66083


Matt,

THIS IS ONE.


So there you have one RE&#39;s thoughts and opinions on the subject. No secrecy, no witchcraft, no hidden agenda. Time to go, there is a black helicopter in the back yard offering me a lift to a Mexican Restaurant so I can make it accross the border.

John Anderson
Reg Exec
Fl.Region-SCCA

No closed door meeting, no secret handshake. Just an issue to deal with that may make sense from 10,000 feet but not to the local guy. The issue has been tabled to gather more info and maybe even some member input. Holy crap - maybe the right thing is happening!

Maybe a different approach may net you some more support. Get it?

Damn, I thought I was done. Done, done, done. :bash_1_:

AB

[Mattberg]

Yet we are just finding out about it now? Maybe not a "secret" meeting but certainly one in which the details were not released voluntarily. What would you call it instead? This has been an ongoing practice by officials. Can&#39;t be fought on issues if no one knows about them. Then we hear the excuse, "The meeting was open".... Well that&#39;s convenient. Drivers just don&#39;t go. What about the closed session coming up in which this will be discussed? Drivers are not invited. Perhaps secret meeting is not the right term but I&#39;m not sure what else this practice should be called. The fact remains that it did happen, we were not informed and information was not made readily available. Bottom line, and no offense, but that&#39;s a weak response to the question I asked and only relates to the current issue. You used the word "always". So I&#39;ll ask again, what other issues? As I recall every issue I&#39;ve addressed has ended up being exactly as I presented it.

There were other things about this meeting that I have been told about that lead me to believe things were not handeled properly or fairly, but will not go into detail until further confirmation. Suffice to say, not alerting drivers when there are so many avenues available to so so, from the region websites to the division, is to me a lie by ommission. If they can take the time to publish news about the worker of the year they can certainly give a brief summary of the meetings. There is no excuse to do otherwise other than a need to contain potential recourse.

As it relates to John, we spoke for a long time. He&#39;s worried about workers. I don&#39;t think the solution to that problem is down sizing. Improving the product, fixing some problems and expansion is the answer. We are shrinking and facing more and more competition every day. NASA just pulled what I see as the coup of the century in taking not only our MO Runoffs date but as I understand it, a number of other abandoned dates. We need more dynamic thinking management, a more efficient and pragmatic worker/steward system and more than anything, less chiefs and more indians. As I&#39;ve asked before, why do we need 27 stewards for a race with 110 cars? It&#39;s totally out of control. Now if we allow one region and track to get control of the whole division I think we run a sever risk of perpetuating the current modus operandi and that just sinks up deeper and deeper into the muck to the point it will be a matter of time before eliminating more races.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 21 2005, 03:34 AM
Matt,

THIS IS ONE.
No closed door meeting, no secret handshake. Just an issue to deal with that may make sense from 10,000 feet but not to the local guy. The issue has been tabled to gather more info and maybe even some member input. Holy crap - maybe the right thing is happening!

Maybe a different approach may net you some more support. Get it?

Damn, I thought I was done. Done, done, done. :bash_1_:

AB

66106



P.S. The first two officials that came on here denied any of it even happened the way I described it and the altered the details. How do you explain that? They said it wasn&#39;t tabled and now it is? Right or wrong thing happening, I&#39;m the only one whose information doesn&#39;t change by the hour. Even Barry&#39;s tone has changed if you read his post. Now it&#39;s looking like everything happened EXACTLY how I described it and the approach is different by the hour. Now it&#39;s strictly about workers. I just love when they drag workers into the issue. Why don&#39;t we just blame Katrina? 11 races at Roebling...that&#39;s the bottom line.

[Capt.John]

Matt. ...Not that it is of any earth shattering significance, but try as I might I can&#39;t recall when there were 27 Stewards and only 110 cars at an event. Was it a National or Regional and at what track? I will admit that the memory may not be what it used to be ( I&#39;m even begning to have trouble with Jeopardy) perhaps you can fill me in as to when this occured. I agree it appears to be excessive coverage.


Capt John

[SilverHorseRacing]

Secret or overlooked, or just not deemed to important, I&#39;m glad this surfaced.

My .02

Let capitalism do it&#39;s best, and let the chips fall where they may. If CFR or FL can attract the racers, supply the workers, and have the tracks, then they should get the lion&#39;s share of the races. I&#39;m not saying I wouldn&#39;t want to travel all over the division to race, but the reality of cost containment is that I currently run Daytona (1.25 hours), Sebring (2.0 hours), Moroso (1.5 hours), and Savannah(5.0 hours) for the double points race and the SIC. Would I like to go to Barber or VIR or RA? Sure. But since I can&#39;t justify the time off work and the money to run what I can run down here, why would I make the trip?

Now changing the rules to force drivers in one area to go race in another smacks of making a mess of things. If I have to tow 12 hours to have a shot at getting points for the SARRC series or another series I wish to run in, then guess what? Odds are I&#39;m not making that race, especially if I have a better commercial option (read closer track with more competition and support) in my own backyard. Saying that the champion of the division needs to run all the tracks is a joke. This isn&#39;t NASCAR, and I don&#39;t have someone towing my rig for me while I make appearances. That said, if someone up north gets a lot of points, and someone down south does the same, let them meet at the SIC and duke it out, with the best man (or woman) taking home the prize for the season.

Now if CFR were to run bad races, maybe I&#39;d be inclined to go spend my money elsewhere. But they don&#39;t, and short of Hurricanes, they don&#39;t cancel too many races (ie RA Labor Day...), so I can count on the schedule and plan accordingly. Basically, they provide good bang-for-the-buck racing, and therefore have my business, as well as that of many others. Regions or tracks looking to attract more money? Understand how CFR does business, copy it, and succeed. Or, run a poor schedule, drag your feet, waste time, cancel events, etc... and reap the benefits of that type of behavior.

I now return you to the in-progress sling-fest. This has been one of the more enjoyable reads here in a while, much better than most of the rules fights that could be scripted by a six-year-old. :bash_1_:

[Butch Kummer]

It came to my attention last night that my name has appeared on this site. I&#39;ll attempt to be brief, but I&#39;d like to state what I think is happening:

Late last week, either Thursday or Friday (11/17 or 18), I got a phone call from a person who identified himself as "Matt Weinberg". He acted as if I should know who he is (I don&#39;t) and we talked for probably half an hour about this and other topics. I notice that my name first appears on this post about 10:30 AM on 11/18, so based on the timing of the post(s) and the similarity of the names, I&#39;ll assume "mattberg" is the person I talked to on the phone.

The best thing to come from this discussion is that I now know why Toni Creighton (whom I admire and respect) was upset with me during lunch at the Mid-year Meeting that I would "let this happen". From what she&#39;s posted here, apparently she (and perhaps others) heard the following:

"We need to have meeting to discuss how to cut back on the number of races each SEDIV region can hold."

That is NOT what I heard, nor apparently what Barry Hair or (Capt.) Bob Anderson heard (and no, we were not all in the men&#39;s room together <g>). What I heard (paraphrased) was:

"We&#39;ve got some serious problems with the SEDIV racing calendar. New regions wanting to build racing programs are having extreme difficulty finding dates, the proliferation of events is causing worker & official burnout for some regions and we may soon have to cancel events because we cannot staff them adequately. We do not have time to solve these problems today and the schedule is jammed on Saturday and Sunday at Jekyll, so let&#39;s have a meeting Friday evening that is dedicated to discussing these issues further with the hope of at least starting down the path of finding a solution acceptable to all."

One suggestion thrown out for consideration (it was not even a proposal, much less a motion) was to limit each region to one National, one single SARRC, one double SARRC and a drivers&#39; school. Another suggestion was to clear the calendar completely and have each region sequentially "draft" each weekend in turn until all regions and/or weekends were full. Yet another thought is to remove the mileage limits for conflicting events on concurrent or consecutive weekends and let the marketplace decide. NONE of these suggestions were made into a motion and I suspect that NONE of these suggestions, if made into a motion, would have a chance in hell of passing at this time!

The Friday night meeting a Jekyll will NOT be an REs meeting only, if for no other reason than some regions have Competition Directors (like myself) that would be directly affected by any actions taken. As far any agenda, the biggest benefit is getting the regions to engage in open conversation about the issues faced by each of us. This is not a Florida issue, it&#39;s not an Atlanta Region issue, it&#39;s not really an Area 12 issue, it&#39;s a SEDIV issue that involves all of us.

What I suspect will come out of this meeting (assuming there are survivors) is a proposal of scheduling guidelines for (no sooner than) the 2007 season and beyond, which would include clearly defined procedures for (new) regions wanting to find a spot on the calendar. I would also support requiring that said proposal not be voted upon until the 2006 Mid-Year Meeting, which would give all regions (and drivers) adequate time to consider specific guidelines and provide input. Finally, I don&#39;t see any changes in the scheduling of events in the state of Florida - every area of the division (and the country) has problems, but staffing and supporting races doesn&#39;t seem to be high on the Sunshine State&#39;s list.

No black helicopters, no clandestine meetings, no covert ops - just some people who care about (SCCA) racing trying to find a common ground in an effort to make it better for all of us. If/when a "real" proposal is floated with specific points, all the membership will have adequate time to comment.

I also feel a need to respond to some of Mr. Whineberg&#39;s other points, then I&#39;ll close:

Perhaps the Atlanta Region lost the Labor Day weekend at Road Atlanta because we have no business talent. You are entitled to your opinion. When the AMA moved their Big Kahuna event to Barber the year after Road Atlanta spent $40K installing the Turn 3 chicane, track management went back to the AMA and asked what could be done to help them amortize that investment. The AMA reportedly said the only weekend they&#39;d consider running Road Atlanta was Labor Day. Since that weekend rivals the Petite for attendance, the track (reluctantly) made a business decision to move us off our traditional date. Even in the heyday of the Runoffs, SCCA hasn&#39;t packed spectators into the track like the AMA weekend does - dollars and cents decison. If the France kingdom suddenly decides to host a wheelbarrow race the first weekend in August at Daytona, I&#39;ll guarantee you CFR gets bounced off one of the biggest (and most fun) weekends they have.

As far as no region owning a track, I also disagree. Part of the reason we have so many events at Roebling is because of location, but another big factor is that we (through Buccaneer Region) have control of the scheduling. And because it&#39;s a "non-spectator" track, there are no big Pro events coming in to wipe out traditional weekends. One of the things I want to do as Asst. RE of Atlanta Region is investigate the feasibility of us building a racetrack. Maybe I&#39;m tilting at windmills and maybe we&#39;ll find that the obstacles are insurmountable, but SFR did it at Thunderhill and I need to be convinced we can&#39;t.

Finally, your comment about Sandy Pence being Mrs. Fletcher Williams is technically accurate but philosophically incorrect. Having worked (and yes argued) with both of them for a number of years, I find that a more accurate statement is that Fletcher Williams is Mr. Sandy Pence :D !

I&#39;m finished now...

Butch Kummer
2006 Asst RE, Atlanta Region
National Competition license #76908
SCCA member since 1980

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by Capt.John@Nov 21 2005, 06:29 PM
Matt. ...Not that it is of any earth shattering significance, but try as I might I can&#39;t recall when there were 27 Stewards and only 110 cars at an event. Was it a National or Regional and at what track?
66165


Entry forms aren&#39;t archived so exact dates and examples aren&#39;t easy to document. Although not for a 110 car race the following is the standard example of officials:

Chief Steward................................Bob Shafer
Registrar.......................................Gi nny Amato
Asst. Chief Steward........................George DeLong
Safety Scrutineer............................Bill Eveland, Sr
Asst. Chief Steward.........................Leland Miller
Timing & Scoring.............................Lee Shafer
Asst. Chief Steward.........................K P Jones
Flagging & Communications.............Rich Kasson
Asst. Chief Steward.........................Fritz Baker
Grid Marshal...........................Sammi Marlis-Ronshausen
Asst. Chief Steward .......................Bob Henderson
Pit Marshal.................................Jennifer Schwartzott
Asst. Chief Steward – Tech..............Grumpy Esau
Starter........................................Lar ry Kurkowski
Asst. Chief Steward – Safety...........Bob Hayward
Sound Control................................Berta Sager
Asst. Safery Steward ...................Shelley Dobkin
Course Marshal.............................Bob Anthony
Chairman S.O.M............................Bob Windisch
Paddock Marshal...........................John Vogt
Steward of the Meet....................Richard Jemison
Medical Director............................Dave Langston
Steward of the Meet.........................Sandy Jung
Pace Car........................................Jack Ragaglia
Steward of the Meet........................Pete Magnuson
Regional Executive........................Rick Balderson
Race Chairman..............................Robin Langlotz
Event Coordinator..........................Charlenne Gunn

That&#39;s 28. It doesn&#39;t differ much from race to race. That&#39;s a lot of chiefs...and assistant chiefs in a time when we hear how tough it is to get indians.

Back on topic, Marcello hits the nail on the head. Almost all sports are broken down to regional activity. Football has its divisions, colleges have their conferences, and racing has its regions. The simple economics of travel dictate where one competes. What&#39;s wrong with having conferences within the division and letting people run as many races as they can within their conference? All this proposal does is reduce the available races one can attend by incurring more expense.

[Mattberg]

Butch,

I don&#39;t think I&#39;ve said anything other than what you have described other than to speculate on certain business agendas behind such a proposal. I stated this was discussed, not put to vote, and that it was tabled for further discussion at Jeckyll.

That said I&#39;ll go back to topic and ask why do new regions need races if they don&#39;t have a track? For that matter, why do we need so many regions that have the same home track or tracks? What this does, if you redistribute the races, is award one or two tracks, in this case Roebling, as many as 13 races? That&#39;s not even distribution. What we should be looking at is re-arranging regions not races. Outside of FL the entire division has only six tracks and 17 regions! WHY? So, take a compass and from each one of those tracks draw six equal circles of whatever size it takes to include the entire division area. There&#39;s your regions.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 22 2005, 08:34 AM
Butch,

I don&#39;t think I&#39;ve said anything other than what you have described other than to speculate on certain business agendas behind such a proposal. I stated this was discussed, not put to vote, and that it was tabled for further discussion at Jeckyll.

That said I&#39;ll go back to topic and ask why do new regions need races if they don&#39;t have a track? For that matter, why do we need so many regions that have the same home track or tracks? What this does, if you redistribute the races, is award one or two tracks, in this case Roebling, as many as 13 races? That&#39;s not even distribution. What we should be looking at is re-arranging regions not races. Outside of FL the entire division has only six tracks and 17 regions! WHY? So, take a compass and from each one of those tracks draw six equal circles of whatever size it takes to include the entire division area. There&#39;s your regions.

66294


To Have a choice. That&#39;s why you need different regions. Sometimes the managment doesn&#39;t want to listen to it&#39;s customer. Having an alternative offers a choice of who I want to race with. While I don&#39;t agree with forcing drivers to do anything like what&#39;s been discribed somewhere is this thread, I am all for offering choice on where and how our driver members choose to spend their money.

[tom_sprecher]

I was going to call you, Butch, but since you have replied to this topic I want to thank you for bringing clarity. This it the type and form of information needed so we can avoid the argumentative speculation that I have refused to participate in on this tread. Having read the responses from Toni, Barry and you, I would like to add my thoughts based on issues discussed in the meetings I have attended and with other members.

The race schedule is a multi faceted subject with many points that are inter-dependant. Let me list them.

1. Low worker turn out.
2. Loss of track dates due to business decisions.
3. Loss of a track due to personal reasons.
4. Track dates on holidays.
5. Non-race regions wanting a race.
6. Racing regions wanting double races.

Low worker turn out: This has been an ongoing problem all over the county. I&#39;m not saying that some areas are not blessed with excess workers but in general the ranks are thinning. Two races were cancelled this season because of it. This was partly due to the holiday weekend and a competing race date but the fact remains we need more workers. I wish I had an answer other than more incentive than a T-shirt but that&#39;s another topic for another meeting.

Loss of tracks due to business decisions: As with everything in the capitalist society we live in the almighty dollar rules. I can&#39;t blame a track for trying to make more money and us losing a date. Can we get another date in return? I don&#39;t know but I have not heard anything. Maybe some fine tuned negotiations are needed here. If that&#39;s the case let me know I&#39;ll do whatever I can.

Loss of a track due to personal reasons: What are you going to do? Without logic and reasoning any situation or discussion is made that much more difficult. Most people know that&#39;s why you don&#39;t argue with children (or trolls).

Track dates on holidays: Convenient for tracks trying to fill dates they know would be difficult if it wasn&#39;t for low profit (to the track) racing organizations, convenient for the regions because the dates are available and convenient for racers who need the time off. Maybe not so convenient for workers who want to see family or take some time off to relax and thereby adding to the worker shortage.

Non-race regions wanting a race and racing regions wanting double races: A.k.a - the meat and potatoes of this thread. Besides all the fun ;) a region has hosting a race it also brings much needed income. This allows the region to provide a more enjoyable and beneficial racing experience for their members and members of visiting regions. I can understand why non racing regions want to put on a race and can see a race schedule change in the future to accommodate that request. It may be possible to pull it off without to much of an impact to the schedule, the racers and the Mattbergs of the world. What would change is which region is hosting an event on the same date and at the same track that previously was hosted by a racing region. Also, it would definitely redirect where the proceeds are deposited.

What amazes me is the people that will rant, rave, bitch, piss and moan on these forums that do nothing to volunteer to help the regions they belong to. If you want to change something get involved. You’re wasting time and getting nothing accomplished by typing away at the base-less drivel and twaddle you post here.

There you have it, my opinion on the subject. It’s more like $1.02 so you own me a dollar. You can pay me at Jekyll in January.

[Mattberg]

No one is keeping non-racing regions from hosting events except for those who discussed establishing an "elite eight" concept. As I understand it, that&#39;s part of the discussion. I&#39;m all for any region that wants to put on a race to do so. Now, if they can&#39;t get a track, entrants or workers, that&#39;s their problem. Limiting what Florida offers in order to make a Chatanooga region race at Roebling more attractive is just wrong. What they are looking for is a financial guarantee of a successful race weekend with little or no risk. That&#39;s not how it works.

We have far too many regions and they all look at hosting events as a significant revenue source but if they don&#39;t have the werewithawl to undertake such, they shouldn&#39;t attempt it. We have four regions all nestled within a small area fighting for that revenue and now we want to add more? We&#39;re defying supply and demand laws. Furthermore, most of them don&#39;t have much choice as far as track. There&#39;s Roebling and then there&#39;s.... uh... Roebling. :rolleyes:

This weekend CFR will probably break a bunch of records at Sebring. I have always been impressed by CFR and the races they host and the racetracks at which they race. They are quality events and well attended. I don&#39;t know for sure what the worker situation is but I&#39;ve rarely heard of any significant problems to the extent I hear coming from the four regions north of us.

If these other regions want races, figure out how CFR does so well and copy them. I think a good start would be to combine some of the 16 other regions and create some strength both in numbers and money. Forcing Florida drivers out of Florida or limiting our dates at OUR tracks will not work. I guaran-damn-tee you will see a Florida division if that ever happened. Anyone remember 1991? ;)

[Capt.John]

Matt..... I count 13 Stewards from the list that you posted. I grant you that this may be a question of semantics but all the others are Chiefs of Specialty and required by the GCR. The listing of the RE and the Pace Car driver are not required just a nice touch to let the folks know who is doing what. From the list of names I would immagine that this was a CFR race possibly at Sebring of fairly recent vintage. You are correct saying that we need more feather wearing Indians; any idea from what tribe or reservation they might be recruited.

Capt. John

[tom_sprecher]

I don&#39;t believe the topic was brought up at the mid-year meeting to move race dates from one track to another but to move racing revenue from one region to another. We can keep the same schedule and still acheive the latter point. Each of the so called "elite eight" gives up hosting a race on an existing date and track on the calander to a non-racing region. I believe that would satistfy everyone except the treasurers of the eight regions that have just taken a pay cut.

The only item I agree with Matt Weinberg on is that, like the the number of counties in Georgia, there are too many regions in the SEDiv. Why divide the limited resources we have available into more regions each with the same fixed expenses. It is a total waste of valuable income. Combining regions should be done before redistributing race dates.

And Matt, you just talked to your RE on the phone about this topic according to his last post. If the worker shortage problem did not play into the conversation maybe your scope was a bit limited. Hopefully, you have learned that before stirring up a bunch of $hit it is best to be actively involved in finding solutions instead of compounding the problem.

[Mattberg]

Tom, no one should be thinking about redistributing income let alone do it by moving good races off one schedule to a region and location unable to do it now. It reduces the value and quality of the product. If a new racing region could host a race better than a Daytona SARRC weekend give it a go! If it&#39;s a success you might even get some of the Florida racers the next year. But replacing that Daytona race with a Roebling race just because some region wants some money is absurd.

And I am not convinced that the worker problem is as severe in Florida. John voiced concerns but I don&#39;t think we&#39;re at a point of cancelling races as we are seeing in a lot of other regions. The worker problem is also tied to other issues, aging demographics, spectator appeal of current car classes and races, no new blood, etc..., it&#39;s a whole new thread! :blink: Suffice to say, limiting races and /or redistributing market share is not the way to fix it.

As far as finding a solution, there isn&#39;t one needed regarding new race regions. Host races all you want. Florida is just fine right now but if this proposal ever sees the light of day the division will be looking for lots of solutions on how not to lose Florida. The worker problem? Like I said. It&#39;s a whole different discussion and I think it&#39;s only being used as an opportunistic chit in this debate. But if you want a solution from me, you start by combining some of these regions. They say they can&#39;t compete? Don&#39;t. Can&#39;t beatem&#39;, join em&#39;. The biggest problem you&#39;ll face there is that a bunch of folks are going to lose their "power hats" and some of those regional officials really like wearing them! :happy204:

[its66]

quote "I don&#39;t believe the topic was brought up at the mid-year meeting to move race dates from one track to another but to move racing revenue from one region to another. We can keep the same schedule and still acheive the latter point. Each of the so called "elite eight" gives up hosting a race on an existing date and track on the calander to a non-racing region."

WOW, why would a region feel that they should be able to host a race at a track within another region? Socialism?? Doesn&#39;t it make sense that the folks who have a relationship with the track are the ones putting on the event. I know what the hurdles of dealing with a certain track in Daytona are now. Can you imagine if Chattanooga came down to run a race there???

IF the idea was to distribute the SARRC races to a few new tracks, I might understand that. How many of the workers would be from the host region, and how many from the track&#39;s region? Not stewards, but F & C, Pit, etc. I"m sure the majority would be from the track. A region is a territory. The races held within that territory should be held by the region of that territory.

Will we be asked to bottle up our sushine and distribute it a little more evenly also?? :P

[Mattberg]

Jim,

I think the designs behind this proposal are becoming pretty clear and you hit the nail on the head. Like most SCCA issues, it&#39;s about money, power and feifdoms overriding logic and good sense. I don&#39;t think the proposal stands a chance in hell of getting anywhere but I worry about a vote and the fact that 10 of the 18 regions DON&#39;T get any of this revenue now.

Stop by for a beer this weekend! Over 400 entries as of this morning and still coming in!

GO FLORIDA! :happy204:

[apexingsupra]

Butch Kummer, thank you very much for your cogent and factual response. Mattberg, I will say this again and neither, Butch or John will disagree with this. There was never any mention or discussion whatsoever of "Elite Eight" regions trying to ban or prevent the other non-racing regions from club racing. You say that and in the same breath talk about Chattanooga wanting to become a racing region when they are not currently one.

You also assume that Chattanooga is possibly thinking about racing at Roebling when that has never been part of any discussion or thought process with them. It would be somewhere else.

Not every region in SEDIV wants to go club racing. I only know of two who have expressed a desire to explore that idea. It is not that suddenly races are going to get distributed to all of the regions in SEDIV. No one is even thinking that.

We as a division are trying to find solutions to our problems hopefully before they become bigger problems. My region has had extreme difficulty in the last two years in scheduling a SARRC race. Every potential date we have had was occupied by a "traditional dated" (SARRC rule) event. It has taken a lot of negotiation to get even one date on the calendar and both times it has involved Florida (thank you Capt. John). Florida gave up a race weekend and did not replace it. If the Alabama region wants to put on a another SARRC race (possibly with Chattanooga) for a grand total of two races we will run into the same problem. The calendar is already full. Either the rules need to be changed and or someone with a large number of races needs to consider giving up a date. I would like to think the larger racing regions do not have a "tough luck" we have the dates attitude and I don&#39;t see that as such. It is about dialogue and the need to explore whether the different regions can accomplish their goals with a little "give and take".

Again this is not a "free enterprise", "free competiton" set up with club racing in SEDIV. It is a controlled "business&#39;. If it was not then a region could put on a triple SARRC any weekend it wanted. But you can&#39;t. Just like putting on just a regional race does not have much of a draw to entrants based on the SARRC series format being a points series.

As to the comment about Chattanooga going racing at Daytona (as a "what if"), that could only happen if CFR agreed to let it happen. There is a home region control of the home track rule in which the outside region wanting to race has to get permission.

Barry H.
Ala. RE

[tom_sprecher]

Don&#39;t get me wrong. I do not want to see anything like what was discussed to ever go farther than it has so far. You&#39;re damn right it&#39;s socialism, pure and simple, and an ideology I despise. Unfortunately, the society we live in makes us take care of everyone. Granted their not asking you to bottle sunshine to spread around but don’t complain if they do. I have no choice in where the over 15% of my income that is taken from me in the form of social security is spent, and I’m sure as hell of a lot of it is spent in Florida.

As far as out of area regions hosting races it has already happened. When Barber became unavailable Al region went to Roebling. When AMS could not be adequately staffed per the GCR the race went to Sebring. The first case was because there are no new tracks or new dates available. The second was due to an insufficient number of workers. We on the SARRC committee are just trying to make a schedule that allows for races to be profitable for the regions holding them. Other regions want in on the action as well.

Of course it’s about money. I notice you boys prefer not to race down there in July and August. Could it be that it’s so damn hot no one would come and the hosting region could lose money. I don’t know for sure so I won’t speculate. That includes the idea of power and fiefdoms as well.

What we want to avoid is a situation where you guys are having a race at Sebring and a non-race region decides to have a race the same weekend or maybe the next one at say, Moroso. Do you have enough racers and workers to do both races and still be profitable for both regions? If the regions in Florida decided to split from the SEDiv that’s exactly what could happen. As a division and with SARRC there are rules in place now to prevent this but you can see how that could happen.

I would like to see a motion put forward to discuss the possibility of reducing the number of regions in the SEDiv. That would be the first step in solving this problem and the topic of another thread.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by apexingsupra@Nov 22 2005, 10:57 PM
Mattberg, I will say this again and neither, Butch or John will disagree with this. There was never any mention or discussion whatsoever of "Elite Eight" regions trying to ban or prevent the other non-racing regions from club racing. You say that and in the same breath talk about Chattanooga wanting to become a racing region when they are not currently one.

You also assume that Chattanooga is possibly thinking about racing at Roebling when that has never been part of any discussion or thought process with them. It would be somewhere else.
66371


Whoooa ther Bama! First, there&#39;s a discrepancy about what was discussed by people who attended the meeting so let&#39;s be careful using the word "never". Second, I only used the Chatanooga region example in response to the basis for the proposal provided by you guys of opening things up to new racing regions. Let&#39;s not take things out of context to try and discredit me and deflect the issue.


Not every region in SEDIV wants to go club racing. I only know of two who have expressed a desire to explore that idea. It is not that suddenly races are going to get distributed to all of the regions in SEDIV. No one is even thinking that.

Well now, that sort of shoots down the whole new racing regions concept doesn&#39;t it?Why would we need to open hosting up to new race regions if only two are even remotely interested? This is the kind of conflicting data that makes me question the true basis for the proposal. Is it new racing regions? Is it a share of the money? Is it not wanting to be a non-racing region? Money? What is it?


We as a division are trying to find solutions to our problems hopefully before they become bigger problems. My region has had extreme difficulty in the last two years in scheduling a SARRC race. Every potential date we have had was occupied by a "traditional dated" (SARRC rule) event. It has taken a lot of negotiation to get even one date on the calendar and both times it has involved Florida (thank you Capt. John). Florida gave up a race weekend and did not replace it. If the Alabama region wants to put on a another SARRC race (possibly with Chattanooga) for a grand total of two races we will run into the same problem. The calendar is already full. Either the rules need to be changed and or someone with a large number of races needs to consider giving up a date. I would like to think the larger racing regions do not have a "tough luck" we have the dates attitude and I don&#39;t see that as such. It is about dialogue and the need to explore whether the different regions can accomplish their goals with a little "give and take".

What are the problems? You have no track? Lack of drivers? Lack of workers? As I understand it we replaced at least one event because you guys couldn&#39;t pull it off. Don&#39;t tell me you could find no dates when we had to pick one up to cover SARRC. So what happens? You all come down and try and poach events from Florida or any other region that has managed to get the job done with exclusivity? Restablish Birmingham-Atlanta as the center of the SEDIV universe? You should fold into another region that does have a track. Be absorbed if you can&#39;t compete. That&#39;s the way it works. Combine Atlanta and Alabama and combine SC and Buccaneer. There&#39;s a solution. Good luck getting that done though. You&#39;ll really learn about SCCA territorial politics! :happy204:


Again this is not a "free enterprise", "free competiton" set up with club racing in SEDIV. It is a controlled "business&#39;. If it was not then a region could put on a triple SARRC any weekend it wanted. But you can&#39;t. Just like putting on just a regional race does not have much of a draw to entrants based on the SARRC series format being a points series.

This simply doesn&#39;t fly and is just wrong. It is free enterprise. Without it the product suffers. Forcing races and eliminating competition only makes for mediocre product. Give the customer no choice and ultimately the product deteriorates. That&#39;s what HAS happened as Florida is putting together better race weekends and accumulating better market share.


As to the comment about Chattanooga going racing at Daytona (as a "what if"), that could only happen if CFR agreed to let it happen. There is a home region control of the home track rule in which the outside region wanting to race has to get permission.

Never happen. :rolleyes: But here&#39;s an idea. Co-sponsor races. Call it a strategic alliance. Offer CFR a deal where your region gets a certain amount of money for every driver you bring to the race from your own region. Go out and market to your membership and get them to go. Not a whole lot of revenue but not much cost either. That is the idea right? To provide for the members of your region? Or is it the money? ;)

[tom_sprecher]

Come on, Weinberg, read and think before you write. Barry has some good points and you missed what he wrote.

From what I&#39;ve read no one but you suggested that there is an effort to prevent non-racing regions from racing.

Just because every region does not want to race does not shoot down the new racing regions concept.

Your quote of Barry&#39;s post lists the problems he has had getting a race.

Your quote of Barry&#39;s post about Chattanooga racing at Daytona: He did write "(as a "what if")". Or did you not see that as well?

Chill, dude, this one has payed out. I hope to see you at the meeting at Jekyll in January and make your concerns heard by the decision makers.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by Toni@Nov 20 2005, 02:17 AM
I was in the meeting. I heard the proposal made by members of the Buccaneer Region. It was supported by members of the Alabama Region and others. The Director of Area 12 tabled the discussion and set a time of Friday night of the Jekyll meeting weekend in January to come to a determination about the proposal. The gathering is limited to the REs and the two Directors of SEDiv.

The proposal was to limit the number of races that a region could put on to:
1 National
2 regionals
1 driver’s school
Limit the number of regions that can put on a race to those regions who currently have a date on the SEDiv schedule.Toni Creighton

66028

[Capt.John]

Butch, Barry and I were on the opposite side of the room, from Toni Creighton at the Crown Plaza in ATL where the meeting was conducted. Are the acoustics in that room so strange that it caused a complete different undetanding of what was said? I&#39;m sure we weren&#39;t just listening to the "little vocies" in our heads.

Capt. John

[Krysd]

Capt. John, didn’t we discuss this issue at our last member meeting, I distinctly recall you getting up during the meeting and bringing it to the attention of all the members there, I am surprised Matt didn’t realize the error in his thinking after hearing what you had to say, OOOH that’s right, Matt wasn’t there, as a matter of fact I don’t remember having seen Matt at ANY of our Member meetings, Raceboard meetings, or BOD meetings ALL open to any Member. Seems like someone who is so vocal about the Florida Region would want to be a little better acquainted with what was going on in his own Region, but that is just me. By the way Matt, ALL those Chiefs are volunteers, when was the last time YOU volunteered? Workers? you bet your BIPPY we are short, at over half of the Florida Region races this past season we had to recruit workers from crew members or cancel the event, what that means is that there is only ONE trained corner worker on a corner to pull Your or My sorry butt out of the car if we need help. SEE the problem? I guess in short (something I’m not generally accused of) I’m saying, if you want to know what REALLY goes on at the SECRET meetings, volunteer, there are still some BOD positions open, pony up and give us a hand, then YOU TOO can ride in the black helicopters and speak in strange codes. Come on Matt, be part of the solution rather that part of the problem.

Krys Dean 273870
Past member Florida Region BOD
Divisional Chief Steward
Licensed Corner Worker
National Driver

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by tom_sprecher@Nov 23 2005, 12:20 AM
Come on, Weinberg, read and think before you write. Barry has some good points and you missed what he wrote.

66382


I don&#39;t think so. It sounds like Alabama wants a peice of the money pie with no assets to invest or work with. Proposing that the other regions deliver that on a silver platter is absurd. Go run a race and make it work. Mark Coffin up in Carolina got double the normal participation for a race by creating the Prod Festival at VIR last month. He&#39;s a frickin&#39; driver for Pete&#39;s sake and a whole lot of other drivers kicked in and helped! I wrote an unsolicited check to their trophy fund! He did the whole thing in a matter of a couple of months? Regional officials don&#39;t do half of what he did. Officials just want to run the show and be the boss. I&#39;ll ask him but I don&#39;t think they had any worker problems either.


From what I&#39;ve read no one but you suggested that there is an effort to prevent non-racing regions from racing.

See previous post.


Just because every region does not want to race does not shoot down the new racing regions concept.

Well, yes it sort of does. I don&#39;t hear any other regions other than Alabama really lobbying for a race. It sounds like Alabama wants races but no one else can really even think about doing so. Regardless, that&#39;s fine, but not at the expense of established races and events for potentially sub par alternatives just to accomodate their financial needs. Like I said, you want to throw a party, throw a party. No one&#39;s stopping you. Don&#39;t limit what others do in order to make it a success.


Your quote of Barry&#39;s post lists the problems he has had getting a race.

Money? Harsh reality dude. Competition? Same story. And the regions in question got dates! They couldn&#39;t make it work! Florida picked up the slack! SC cancelled last week&#39;s race for lack of interest. We&#39;ve got over 400 entries for this weekend as of this morning! I&#39;ve also heard nothing of any problems in the worker ranks. If so, I&#39;m ready to work a corner. Race group 1, I&#39;ll have all afternoon! :023:


Your quote of Barry&#39;s post about Chattanooga racing at Daytona: He did write "(as a "what if")". Or did you not see that as well?

No comment. Silly concept. It&#39;s like letting someone I don&#39;t know sit at my desk for a couple of days and take my paycheck for the week.


Chill, dude, this one has payed out. I hope to see you at the meeting at Jekyll in January and make your concerns heard by the decision makers.

Payed out? What does that mean? Hopefully this idea will never see the light of day at Jekyll Island.

This proposal, dicussion, whatever you want to call it, is merely a veiled attempt to get some regions financially healthy while lacking the assets to do so, at the expense of others, and make that area the home and focus of the SEDIV. It&#39;s not going to happen because I have news for you. Atlanta is no longer the center of the SEDIV.

And for the record, it&#39;s Weisberg, not Weinberg or Whineberg. I&#39;ll give you all the benefit of the doubt and assume it&#39;s an honest mistake and not an insult.


GO FLORIDA! :happy204:

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by Krysd@Nov 23 2005, 03:30 AM
Capt. John, didn’t we discuss this issue at our last member meeting, I distinctly recall you getting up during the meeting and bringing it to the attention of all the members there, I am surprised Matt didn’t realize the error in his thinking after hearing what you had to say, OOOH that’s right, Matt wasn’t there, as a matter of fact I don’t remember having seen Matt at ANY of our Member meetings, Raceboard meetings, or BOD meetings ALL open to any Member. Seems like someone who is so vocal about the Florida Region would want to be a little better acquainted with what was going on in his own Region, but that is just me. By the way Matt, ALL those Chiefs are volunteers, when was the last time YOU volunteered? Workers? you bet your BIPPY we are short, at over half of the Florida Region races this past season we had to recruit workers from crew members or cancel the event, what that means is that there is only ONE trained corner worker on a corner to pull Your or My sorry butt out of the car if we need help. SEE the problem? I guess in short (something I’m not generally accused of) I’m saying, if you want to know what REALLY goes on at the SECRET meetings, volunteer, there are still some BOD positions open, pony up and give us a hand, then YOU TOO can ride in the black helicopters and speak in strange codes. Come on Matt, be part of the solution rather that part of the problem.

Krys Dean 273870
Past member Florida Region BOD
Divisional Chief Steward
Licensed Corner Worker
National Driver

66413


Krys, sarcasm and insults aside, I appreciate what you&#39;re saying but c&#39;mon. I&#39;ve been called on once in the past five years to either work or provide a worker(s). Mike Cox said we were short for a race at Sebring because all the workers and officials went to a pro race in St. Petersburg. I won&#39;t even get onto that issue. :rolleyes: Anyway, he got online and put out the word. I called him and I said count me in. I race alone at regionals so I couldn&#39;t promise a crew member but said I&#39;d make some calls. Turned out he ended up with more than he needed and he told me not to worry about it before I even left for the track. You think racers will give up races for lack of workers? Paaaalease. Drivers have a vested interest. Funny, we seem to have no trouble getting 25-30 officials to every race. What&#39;s their vested interest? Would they show up if they had to work a corner? When was the last time you saw Fred Schmucker with a set of flags on a corner at Moroso in 100 degree heat? How about Pete Magnuson? Instead we have to suffer through unending driver&#39;s meeting hearing what bad driver&#39;s we are. And they certainly don&#39;t mind coming down here for Florida races and collecting their per diem that we pay to tell us so.

As far as going to region meetings? Been to them. Waste of time. Nothing that couldn&#39;t be handled over the phone. Too many chiefs, not enough Indians spending too much time on trivial issues. It&#39;s our own fault though. We created it by making them everyone chiefs. I&#39;m thinking about becoming Asst. Chief of Trophy Polish Products Purchasing next year just so I can say I did my part. :023:


GO FLORIDA! :happy204:

[Krysd]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 22 2005, 10:57 PM
Krys, sarcasm and insults aside, I appreciate what you&#39;re saying but c&#39;mon. I&#39;ve been called on once in the past five years to either work or provide a worker(s). Mike Cox said we were short for a race at Sebring because all the workers and officials went to a pro race in St. Petersburg. I won&#39;t even get onto that issue. :rolleyes: Anyway, he got online and put out the word. I called him and I said count me in. I race alone at regionals so I couldn&#39;t promise a crew member but said I&#39;d make some calls. Turned out he ended up with more than he needed and he told me not to worry about it before I even left for the track. You think racers will give up races for lack of workers? Paaaalease. Drivers have a vested interest. Funny, we seem to have no trouble getting 25-30 officials to every race. What&#39;s their vested interest? Would they show up if they had to work a corner? When was the last time you saw Fred Schmucker with a set of flags on a corner at Moroso in 100 degree heat? How about Pete Magnuson? Instead we have to suffer through unending driver&#39;s meeting hearing what bad driver&#39;s we are. And they certainly don&#39;t mind coming down here for Florida races and collecting their per diem that we pay to tell us so.

As far as going to region meetings? Been to them. Waste of time. Nothing that couldn&#39;t be handled over the phone. Too many chiefs, not enough Indians spending too much time on trivial issues. It&#39;s our own fault though. We created it by making them everyone chiefs. I&#39;m thinking about becoming Asst. Chief of Trophy Polish Products Purchasing next year just so I can say I did my part. :023:
GO FLORIDA! :happy204:

66421



If Fred, or Pete, or me for that matter (I am a Steward) call a group down for bad driving it would be because they need it.

As a matter of fact I have seen Pete with flags in hand, I have done it as well, at Moroso, in the heat and the rain.

As far as assistant Chief of Trophy Polish Products purchasing, I guess if that is where your skills are, go for it, but the bottom line is, if you aren&#39;t willing to work within the framework of the organization to effect change, then you are part of the problem and certainly not part of the solution.

You seem to think it is easy to run an event, but you don&#39;t know the first thing about it, you have no clue as to the officials that are required by the GCR and you are ignorrant of the job that Stewards do. I realize talking to you is like P***ing into the wind, so I wont take it any further, I will just close my part of this discussion??? by saying that Florida Region is blessed with a large number of GREAT members who are willing to take their time and expend the effort to make certain we have a safe, fun place to race, they are the heart and soul of Florida Region and deserve better than to have one of their own slander them with unfounded/ignorant half truths and inuendo.

For those of you who are reading this thread, Matt is not representative of the majority of Florida Region members.

Krys Dean

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by Krysd@Nov 23 2005, 06:06 AM
...but the bottom line is, if you aren&#39;t willing to work within the framework of the organization to effect change, then you are part of the problem and certainly not part of the solution.
66433


This is such a common response from officials in response to criticism. "If you don&#39;t like it run for office". You shouldn&#39;t have to hold office or occupy a position whithin the organization to effect change, have a voice or take an issue to the membership. Sorry but I can&#39;t stand this response and it&#39;s just a way to scamper way from accountability and deflect issues. Imagine President Bush saying..."if you don&#39;t like the war, run for office". :rolleyes:


You seem to think it is easy to run an event, but you don&#39;t know the first thing about it, you have no clue as to the officials that are required by the GCR and you are ignorrant of the job that Stewards do. I realize talking to you is like P***ing into the wind, so I wont take it any further, I will just close my part of this discussion??? by saying that Florida Region is blessed with a large number of GREAT members who are willing to take their time and expend the effort to make certain we have a safe, fun place to race, they are the heart and soul of Florida Region and deserve better than to have one of their own slander them with unfounded/ignorant half truths and inuendo.

I never said running an event was easy. As far as knowing anything about it? Well, I watched my wife run two of the largest computer trade shows in the world for four years and I&#39;d say an event with 200,000 people is as complex as any race weekend. Talk about a busy paddock. :blink: You guys ever have to deal with four different Chicago unions to get a race off? :D

Actually, I&#39;m amazed it hasn&#39;t been made easier to run an event. Instead of paying for a National Convention or supporting the inexplicable fiscal stupidity of SCCA University, why don&#39;t we look into a National standardized automated registration system and database? Why do we duplicate fixed expenses across 18 regions just in SEDIV let alone the rest of the country? Why do we service the organizers versus the customers handing out $100 late fees while running under capacity? Why are we still so "paper" heavy in this day and age? Why is it that information from the meetings is not published? Why have I never received an e-mail announcing a race and only occasionally receive one by mail? There are some basic business principles from marketing, administration, operations and sales that are being ignored or overlooked that could very likely fix some of the problems.

The bottom line Krys is I agree that whatever worker problems or shortages we may have must be dealt with one way or another. But I don&#39;t think that&#39;s what&#39;s behind this proposal and it&#39;s already been stated that their is a totally unrelated money motive. That to me, entirely discounts the worker argument as secondary and opportunistic. Maybe we do need to change the GCR. Maybe we need to attract new blood or press the club to open the doors to newer cars and races that will attract such. Maybe we need to improve our demographics as our workers grow older and gravitate to steward positions. Maybe we need to increase our on-line presence. Let&#39;s put the problems on the table and deal with them. But cutting races or moving them out of Florida will serve no one but those regions they are moved to at our expense. It will be terribly detrimental to the Florida racer and worker. :angry:

Last, I don&#39;t believe I have slandered anyone nor have I provided innuendo or half truths. If I am mistaken about something, let me know and I&#39;ll correct it but I made significant effort to confirm all the data I was given. Regarding me not being representative of Florida Region members, I sure hope I&#39;m not if it means supporting the idea of dropping races to distribute revenue to other states and regions and getting in return, financial loss, increased expense and a product borne out of a market of non-competitive exclusivity. :023:

GO FLORIDA! :happy204:

[Toni]

Butch,
You said that the meeting to discuss this proposal at Jekyll is open to people other than the REs and Directors. You said that you were going to attend. I’m sure there are others that would like to attend. Can you tell me where and when it will be? It is not on the convention schedule that is posted on the website. At the July meeting I was asked by Kaye Farier to relay a message to the convention chairman that a room would be needed for Friday night for this meeting. I did – sometimes I actually talk to him. No one has confirmed a time, the size of the room, or the layout of the room with him. Is the meeting being held out of the hotel? In the hotel? What time? Where? Where has there been a published notice for the meeting? Who received it? How can others learn about the location, time, and place? Who can attend?
And yes, Butch, this would be for the 2007 schedule. The 2006 schedule is posted and we are racing in the 2006 schedule currently. The Mid Year meeting in July of 2006 is when the 2007 schedule will be presented. Regions should have their schedules listed on the proposed calendar well before the end of July meeting.

Krys and Tom,
Matt is actively involved in finding a solution to this proposal. He has made it public to the racers who care where, when, and with what group they race. Matt makes another determining factor in this. He pays entry fees to those who have an acceptable race product scheduled conveniently, both in time and location, to when and where he wants to race. He lets his check book vote on the best race product. Without his entry fee, the rest of us would not have a place to play. Without your entry fee we would not have a place to play. Matt also has a very good grasp of commerce and marketing.

Tom,
Barber did not become unavailable. Alabama Region has chosen not to race there. Alabama Region was unable to come to a working agreement with the Barber Track Management. They did not read their contract well enough to realize that they would have a post race payment to make for damages or should make a pre-race track inspection. As I understand it, the SCCA insurance made the damage payment for them. They also have previously raced at Talladega, yes the big track. Alabama Region has also chosen not to race there. They now want to race at Roebling Road instead of at a track within their own boundaries.
South Carolina Region also puts on races at Roebling – about 30 minutes outside their boundary. South Carolina also puts on races at Carolina Motorsports Park which is 5 minutes outside their boundary.
Buccaneer Region owns Roebling Road. Roebling Road is in the business of renting the track to organizations who want to race there. PBOC, BMW, HSR, WERA, NASA are groups that also race there. Buccaneer Region, South Carolina Region, Alabama Region, SEDiv, and the SARRC Committee all put on races there. If there is a limit put to the number of SCCA races that are held there (by any/all regions), other groups will take the dates and race there. Roebling Road is in the business of racing but it doesn’t really matter who rents the track – as long as it is rented. If SCCA races are removed from other race tracks, who will fill those dates in the track&#39;s calendar?

John,
I was sitting across the isle and two chairs from the 2 Buccaneer Region people who made the proposal. I made notes and I’ve read them, again. The proposal included a limit to the number of regions that would be allowed to put on a race to those who were currently racing. And it was for 2 races per region. But yes there was side bar conversations going on in the area where you were sitting. And perhaps some where having an out of body experience as well.

Barry,
You turned around to the Buccaneer Region folks to verify that your region was being included in the group of racing regions. The reply was yes.

Barry,
I pointedly asked you if Tennessee Valley Region (who once was a racing region) would be allowed to put on another race under this proposal. You replied that they would not be included in the group of racing regions.
I pointedly asked you if Dixie Region (who has also been a racing region) would be allowed to put on a race. Again you replied that they would not be included in the group.
I pointedly asked you if Blue Ridge Region would be allowed to race. A third time, you said not they would not be allowed to put on a race – they were not among the currently racing regions. That tells me that you understood that the proposal was to limit the number of racing regions who currently put on races.

All Ya’ll,
Matt has made the point that needed to be made. He gave you information to use or choose not to use.
There was a proposal made that would limit the number of races a region could put on. There was a proposal made that would limit which regions would be allowed to put on races. This proposal was made at the Mid Year meeting – at the end of July. The subject was not brought to the membership or the racer who would be affected by any proposed changes until late November. This information was brought to light not by an RE, who will be making the decisions and policy, but by a racer, a member. Because of Matt, the racers now know there is a proposal to change the racing schedule in future years. They can choose to have contact with their RE, or not. The RE may or may not pay attention to his region’s racers when decisions are made. The racers can choose to vote for those same people who did not bring the information to the membership or they can choose to vote for someone else, or no one. Without information being brought to the people who will be affected, informed, wise business decisions can not be made. REs, you have customers who buy your product, the race. They tell you their choices every time they pay an entry fee. Why would you consider something that would hurt the sales of your own product. Racers are your customers why should they not be told about information that affects them?

I don’t have a dog in this fight. I’m no longer a racer. And I’m not an elected official who makes decisions. I’m one of the multitude of stewards that like to hang around race tracks where racers come to play. I show up at other people’s games. If I were still a racer I would be very upset that there was a proposal made by others that would limit my choice of where, when, and with what group I wanted to race – especially without my knowing about it.
Without the information the racer has no choice in the matter. Matt gave you the information to use as you see fit. It is no longer in a room of 50 or a Board meeting of 10. The racers now have the information.
What’s to become of it? If I were a racer in North Carolina, Central Carolina, Central Florida, or Florida, I would be on the phone or email to my RE with my thoughts on how to keep my racing program convenient and accessible to me. But I’m not a racer anymore. I’ll show up at any race track with racers and race cars.

[Mattberg]

Well, now I know that not every SEDIV official hates me. :023: Thanks for seeing the logic of my actions Ms. Creighton. I&#39;ve never asked someone to come to my defense in anything in this life and to have it done here feels pretty good. Vindication of sorts.

Barry, dude. You are definately on the hotseat here. I just read some things I never knew about that pretty much expose your intentions and charade of a basis for said proposal. No offense but that cookie jar lid is breaking fingers right now. :D

[Andy Bettencourt]

We have two different factions here. A veritable he-said, she-said. It&#39;s getting boring. The mis-information is out there for people to use as they need to. Best thing to do is contact your local PTB.

Can we lock this crap-thread down?

[Mattberg]

Post deleted. Ten second rule was not applied. :D My bad. :023:

[Rothermel]

An interesting topic to say the least. As RE for Tennessee Valley Region I get a little interested in topics that bring up this region. TVR is not a racing region......yet. To do so means we have the ability to at least help staff an event. 2005 saw TVR go from 3 autocrosses a year to 6. We also co-sponsored a Time Trial event with Alabama Region in April, with TVR in charge of the Time Trial school portion. Then TVR put on a spectator Hillclimb with only 200+ workers in October. Next we will do even more event. Racing? only time will tell as we grow (+25 members in one year) and we put people in the programs to learn the ropes.
I have seen the problems regions have in suppling workers and I have seen the disappointment when a group needs to cancel. I have also noticed some regions can easily move dates and effectively choke another event out of workers. We are in a difficult phase and I would hope that the leaders in charge of the SEDIV will come up with a solution not more disappointment. The way thinks are going TVR will want to co-sponsor a race and become a racing region.
I was part of the Time Trial racers who tried out Nashville Super Speedway in October and I think this may be a place to road race very soon. But will someone play the get a crappy date and kill any chance for it to take off because Chattanooga region is not a current racing region?
I have talked to Barry many a time, I don&#39;t think he would kill off a chance for us to go road racing. If he was why would he give a chance to go in with his region like he did?
I have also been an RE before my latest stint and always Florida regions take care of business as well as anyone, they have the resourses and the staff to always have their events. However, there must be a solution to help a small region get something going if they to are interested in road racing.

[Mattberg]

CFR used to be a small region... Put on good events and entice racers to come to you.

[tom_sprecher]

Now I do not know who to believe. I know one thing for sure is that I will be at Jekyll and at this meeting, if there is one, to discuss this suggestion, proposal, conspiracy or whatever it is. I will have a list of questions that will be concise and to the point, if not embarrassing, to the party it is asked of. If am not allowed to attend this meeting I will ask the same questions at the general meeting before the entire group of SEDiv members that choose to be there.

I guess the way Matt presents the information is what raises doubts as to its authenticity. To be honest it sounds like one big BS story that has turned into a he said - she said soap opera.

Something must be done to the schedule to ensure if a race date is listed a race will occur on that date. I don&#39;t really care how it&#39;s done. Otherwise, I need to look into the other sanctioning bodies that Toni listed and find one that better suites my form of racing, my schedule and my money.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 23 2005, 08:15 PM
You have no dog in this hunt Andy. Go away.

66527


Then keep it out of the General IT Discussions forum. Is it a wonder why everyone thinks the way they do about you?

Yikes.

AB

[Capt.John]

Happy Thanksgiving ! Give it a rest. Good night all.

Capt. John

[Krysd]

Originally posted by Capt.John@Nov 23 2005, 11:45 PM
Happy Thanksgiving ! Give it a rest. Good night all.

Capt. John

66546


Your absolutely right Capt. John, lets put a rest to it for a few days at least, or better yet until the Jekyl Island meeting. Happy holidays to all, hope to see you at Sebring this weekend or in Jan and Homestead in Jan as well.

Krys Dean

[chuck baader]

Toni, there are some incorrect assumptions in your comments about the Alabama Region. I was a board member during the times mentioned and I would like to set the record straight.

"They did not read their contract well enough to realize that they would have a post race payment to make for damages or should make a pre-race track inspection." Comment: yes, the board did make a pre race inspection in addition to carefully reading the contract. We expected a post race invoice for dammages. However, what we expected (normal and customary) was far in excess of what is considered normal and customary. (Please note that quite a few of the track running personnel at Barber have changed and they are becoming more user friendly.)

"They also have previously raced at Talladega, yes the big track. Alabama Region has also chosen not to race there. " This is totally wrong: Alabama region has not chosen to "not race there." Talladega has made the infield road course motor home parking for the two NASCAR events held there yearly and the pavement has either been torn up or removed on the road course section, rendering it unusable.

Happy Thanksgiving to all, and God bless our Troups. Chuck

[charrbq]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 24 2005, 02:35 AM
Then keep it out of the General IT Discussions forum. Is it a wonder why everyone thinks the way they do about you?

Yikes.

AB

66539

The earth has moved...they skies opened up...and the waters parted. Andy and I agree. Take it somewhere else. By posting this item here, you&#39;ve included everyone&#39;s dog, horse, and race car. By telling someone to go away, you&#39;ve glorified your delicate ego.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by Krysd@Nov 24 2005, 05:39 AM
...lets put a rest to it for a few days at least, or better yet until the Jekyl Island meeting. Happy holidays to all, hope to see you at Sebring this weekend or in Jan and Homestead in Jan as well.

66552



Funny... That&#39;s exactly what they told us about the Spec Miata vote in 2004. "Don&#39;t overreact. Everything&#39;s fine. Just wait until the meeting." Then they pulled the rug out from under us having made their decisions months before against what the drivers wanted. :angry: No. I don&#39;t think we&#39;ll be giving them that kind of wiggle room anymore. They can&#39;t be trusted when there&#39;s regional interests and money involved. :angry:

[Krysd]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 24 2005, 07:42 PM
Funny... That&#39;s exactly what they told us about the Spec Miata vote in 2004. "Don&#39;t overreact. Everything&#39;s fine. Just wait until the meeting." Then they pulled the rug out from under us having made their decisions months before against what the drivers wanted. :angry: No. I don&#39;t think we&#39;ll be giving them that kind of wiggle room anymore. They can&#39;t be trusted when there&#39;s regional interests and money involved. :angry:

66607


Whatever, Matt, I am done. GOD forbid you should go to a meeting.


Matt hope you had a happy Thanksgiving and happy Holidays to follow (that is NOT a threat).

Krys Dean

[Capt.John]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 24 2005, 08:42 PM
Funny... That&#39;s exactly what they told us about the Spec Miata vote in 2004. "Don&#39;t overreact. Everything&#39;s fine. Just wait until the meeting." Then they pulled the rug out from under us having made their decisions months before against what the drivers wanted. :angry: No. I don&#39;t think we&#39;ll be giving them that kind of wiggle room anymore. They can&#39;t be trusted when there&#39;s regional interests and money involved. :angry:

66607



Matt...
1. Who is "THEY"? A name or a face would help one know who we are talking about. A nameless, faceless reference to an entity known only as "they" does not give clear and concice information regarding the identityof those who you feel have performed a diservice to the SCCA members of SEDIV.

2. What was the Spec Miata vote in 2004 about, where a decision had been made by "they" ( Same group as rerfered to above ) some months before negating the wishes of the drivers ? There were two meetings in 2004, Jekyll and Atlanta. When I departed the room at both of these meetings the carpet--rug-- was still very much intact.

3. Since the afore menntioned "they", cannot be trusted with the well being nor money of the Regions of SEDIV, this amounts to a vote of no confidence.
I&#39;m certain that a plethora of volunteers are patiently waiting in the wings, anxious to be tapped on the shoulder with the golden sword so that they may go forth as the "new and improved they".

Doctors practice medicine, lawyers practice law. Could we be considered to be practicing Administration? Maybe with enough practice we&#39;ll get it right.


Capt.John

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by Capt.John@Nov 26 2005, 06:14 PM
Matt...
1. Who is "THEY"? A name or a face would help one know who we are talking about. A nameless, faceless reference to an entity known only as "they" does not give clear and concice information regarding the identityof those who you feel have performed a diservice to the SCCA members of SEDIV.

66700


"THEY"? Who cares? The officials who voted! What difference do their names make? It was a general reference to officials taking actions in conflict to their contituency&#39;s wishes as a general practice. They voted as a group so it makes it hard to name names or condemn the enitre group but if that&#39;s what you want, so be it. The whole BoD. Since they only selectively make their votes public there&#39;s no way to know who "THEY" are. When the votes stop taking place behind closed doors I&#39;ll send you a list. :023:


Originally posted by Capt.John@Nov 26 2005, 06:14 PM
2. What was the Spec Miata vote in 2004 about, where a decision had been made by "they" ( Same group as rerfered to above ) some months before negating the wishes of the drivers ? There were two meetings in 2004, Jekyll and Atlanta. When I departed the room at both of these meetings the carpet--rug-- was still very much intact.

66700


The Spec Miata National proposal and subsequent vote is what I was taling about. No offense John but where have you been the past two years? Although I can believe people didn&#39;t know much about it, as it was kept pretty quiet. Exactly why I want to make sure this current issue is not handled the same way. Also, the issue is about official decisions and protocol in general, not just SEDIV topics. This is an issue of both divisional and National scope.


Originally posted by Capt.John@Nov 26 2005, 06:14 PM
3. Since the afore menntioned "they", cannot be trusted with the well being nor money of the Regions of SEDIV, this amounts to a vote of no confidence.
I&#39;m certain that a plethora of volunteers are patiently waiting in the wings, anxious to be tapped on the shoulder with the golden sword so that they may go forth as the "new and improved they".

66700


There we go with the "volunteer" trump card. Always the last resort. If it&#39;s so bad don&#39;t do it. If you hate it, don&#39;t do it. If you can&#39;t do it, don&#39;t accept the responsibility and then say it&#39;s not your fault because you&#39;re a volunteer or that no one else will do it. If Florida region can&#39;t cut it, fold it into CFR. Same for any other region. That&#39;s actually what I&#39;d like to see. John you&#39;re a very nice guy but all I&#39;m hearing from you and Krys Dean is excuses and how bad it is and how you&#39;re tired of hearing complaints about workers and officials. I was shocked to hear you agree with the concept of reducing the number of races as it sounded like someone who was simply throwing in the towel. Conversely I have seen little or no postive pro-active measures taken to improve the situation. Maybe it can&#39;t be done. If not, fold up the tent, relinquish the region to CFR and become a member of CFR. But don&#39;t try and keep the region alive by downsizing the market to fit what the region can provide.


Originally posted by Capt.John@Nov 26 2005, 06:14 PM
Doctors practice medicine, lawyers practice law. Could we be considered to be practicing Administration? Maybe with enough practice we&#39;ll get it right.
Capt.John

66700


Perhaps we should be looking into Administration malpractice. ;) As far as geting it right? Well it&#39;s been years and years and we still have no automated registration system. That&#39;s administration. We have little if any technology at work to the extent we could be using it. Why are we not e-mailing race notices and other marketing information to racers? I&#39;ve never received a thing and it costs NOTHING! One letter a few keystrokes and, VOILA! That&#39;s administration. Techonolgy is painfully absent from our administration both in SEDIV and Topeka. To me it&#39;s mind boggling. You want me to write a plan? No problem. I have a copy around here of the one I wrote three years ago with full financials and pro formae included. All that&#39;s missing are the bids from some system integrators.

[apexingsupra]

Originally posted by Toni@Nov 23 2005, 10:37 PM


Tom,
Barber did not become unavailable. Alabama Region has chosen not to race there. Alabama Region was unable to come to a working agreement with the Barber Track Management. They did not read their contract well enough to realize that they would have a post race payment to make for damages or should make a pre-race track inspection. As I understand it, the SCCA insurance made the damage payment for them. They also have previously raced at Talladega, yes the big track. Alabama Region has also chosen not to race there. They now want to race at Roebling Road instead of at a track within their own boundaries.
South Carolina Region also puts on races at Roebling – about 30 minutes outside their boundary. South Carolina also puts on races at Carolina Motorsports Park which is 5 minutes outside their boundary.
.

66510


I go away for Thanksgiving and come back and find this ridiculous and insulting comment on here. Toni, you were not at Barber in 2004 nor have you ever been a party to any of my region&#39;s discussions or meetings with Barber. I would appreciate it if you would not comment on things you know nothing about.
First as to "they did not read their contract well enough to realize that they would make post race payment for damages or make a pre-race inspection" that is complete bull hockey and you owe my region an apology. I am an attorney by profession. I was the first person to negotiate a contract with Barber in that we were the very first event at the track in 2003. I read every last paragraph, sentence and word. So much in fact that prior to our inaugural race working with Barber, several revisions were made, some of substance on risk management issues that involved meetings with their managment, in-house counsel, and outside counsel. Some of those negotiated provisions are still in the contract.So yes, we read it very carefully. We have done pre-race inspections at the end of the test n tune prior to taking possesion of the track every single time. I was not only aware of the Barber&#39;s damage provision (including how many square yards of grass you can tear up each day) I was also aware of other tracks damage provisions such as Road Atlanta and how much one is charge for oil dry, fire extinguishers and guardrail. We did our homework.


In 2003 the inaugural event we had more and heavier incidental contact with guardrail and tire walls than in 2004. We had the usual spills in the paddock too. Our damage bill for 2003? ZERO DOLLARS. My region knew in speaking with all the race chairs in SEDIV that incidental contact with tire walls and guardrails and "normal" spills in the paddock was not a billable damage item. It is part of the rent. There was no reason to expect the Alabama region was going to get a large damage bill in 2004. No one expected it even outside of this region. In the 2004 July race we had a normal race weekend. Some incidental contact with tire walls and guardrail but nothing major. Same for spills too. At the end of the weekend I met with the then track&#39;s manager and asked him if we needed to walk the track, look at anything in particular or discuss any damage. His response was that he had already done the inspection (with our race chairman) and that "everything looked fine". He is the track manager and I think it would be reasonable to assume it was fine. Ten days later we got a track damage bill for $17,000.

In talking to ALL the SEDIV race chairs after receiving such a bill no one could recall any region ever receiving such a bill even remotely approximating such an amount. Maybe one or two thousand on a bad weekend with badly crunched guardrail but not that amount. So yes we did involve National SCCA and that was the prudent thing to do. If we had gotten a bill for a few thousand dollars we would have just paid it.

You were not in the post race meetings with Barber nor did you confer with the licensed professional engineer who looked into this for us. In that the amount was in dispute we ultimately arrived at an mutual agreement with the track. Obviously after that situation the region did conclude that it could not afford to club race there if that range of post race damage bills would be the norm. Barber has the right to charge what they want for alleged damage but we had no indication prior to the event such a charge out of what was then the "industry norm" was going to occur. Since that time personnel has changed at the Barber facility and the track is more user friendly and damage bills are a lot less and more reasonable. Nevertheless the situation strained the relationship which is not helped by having to re-discuss this on the internet to defend the region against your unfair and inaccurate remarks. Right now we are not in a working relationship with Barber and when and if that does occur we will go back if it makes sense. I would like to think it can occur.

As to "choosing" not to go back to Talladega Superspeedway once again you don&#39;t know what you are talking about. We may have raced there a long, long time ago in the 1980s. We don&#39;t now. You know why? Because Harley Davidson has the exclusive lease on the road course to test their motorcycles. It is not for rent by anyone else. Also Harley Davidson has put rumble strips, speed bumps and other non-racing conducive suspension/chassis testing configurations on the wear surface. It is not in any shape for road racing. We did a Time Trial on the full oval back in 2002 but that is not a "road course" by any stretch of the imagination. I don&#39;t think driving a spec miata in a big circle on the apron at 100+mph could be called "road racing".

We go to Roebling because Buccanneer gives us permission to do so and track managment liked our event. So much that they are going to hold off on re-paving the track one week to let us put our race on in 2006. Any region can race anywhere it wants to with the permission of the home region in which the track resides. We could put one on at Laguna Seca with permission of the home region.

As to you asking me "pointedly" about Dixie, TVR, and Blue Ridge being excluded from club racing, you did not. Nor did I say such things much less think such things. Nor do you see Butch, John, or even Mark Rothermal the TVR RE say I said what you claim. They were all in the room at the meeting. You and I did not have a private conversation. What I said was to be heard by all. You are the ONLY one who claims the "elite eight" wants to exclude the non-racing regions and having me comment on it. I remember where you sat. Over my left shoulder on the left side of the room in the back. Capt. John was sitting immediately behind me and could hear anything I said. Butch was on the row in front of me to my right and about 7 or 8 ft. away. I usually have no problem being heard in a room. Mark Rothermal was in the room. None of them heard such a comment. So I can only wonder why you would say such untruthful things especially in light of TVR&#39;s comments that we have discussed how to help them with events (and co-sanctioned events), not exclude them. I am the one trying to help more regions go road racing if they so decide. Just ask Bill Perry of the Chattanooga region. He will confirm that.

I don&#39;t appreciate your comments that are inaccurate and unfair.

Barry H.

[Mattberg]

Misdirection will not help you Barry. Alabama will not get a race as long as I can help it. You don&#39;t have a track and you have no rights to one, at least not at the expense of cancelling other races so it can be made easier. Butch confirmed what Toni said and that&#39;s a fact. You have selective hearing. Being offended is only a result of the fact that your region can&#39;t get its act together and you don&#39;t have a track. Stop trying to be a player and fold into Atlanta or Buccaneer region if you want to be a region with races. I&#39;m very confident after this weekend and talking with a number of officials that your proposal has NO CHANCE and if it did Florida would be gone leaing SEDIV with very little. So, keep it up and either go with the current program or watch Florida leave and watch what is the strongest division in SCCA racing become the weakest division in SCCA racing.

You are a divisive energy. It&#39;s bad for the division and bad for the club. Put your energy towards something positive versus power monging for your region that has nothing to offer and only wishes to take revenue from other regions. How many entries did AL region have at the Turkey Trot? You want our drivers and workers but you&#39;re not willing to send them here.

[lateapex911]

Hey moderator...can we move this to the regional (SE) section? maybe it&#39;s me, but it seems he said- she said derisive and nearly name calling...

I know..I don&#39;t have to read it, LOL....but even still, it&#39;s not in the proper area, IMHO...

[charrbq]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 29 2005, 05:21 AM
Misdirection will not help you Barry. Alabama will not get a race as long as I can help it. You don&#39;t have a track and you have no rights to one, at least not at the expense of cancelling other races so it can be made easier. Butch confirmed what Toni said and that&#39;s a fact. You have selective hearing. Being offended is only a result of the fact that your region can&#39;t get its act together and you don&#39;t have a track. Stop trying to be a player and fold into Atlanta or Buccaneer region if you want to be a region with races. I&#39;m very confident after this weekend and talking with a number of officials that your proposal has NO CHANCE and if it did Florida would be gone leaing SEDIV with very little. So, keep it up and either go with the current program or watch Florida leave and watch what is the strongest division in SCCA racing become the weakest division in SCCA racing.

You are a divisive energy. It&#39;s bad for the division and bad for the club. Put your energy towards something positive versus power monging for your region that has nothing to offer and only wishes to take revenue from other regions. How many entries did AL region have at the Turkey Trot? You want our drivers and workers but you&#39;re not willing to send them here.

66902

I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll snap my head off as you seem so capable of doing. But I&#39;ve got to say...man, you are one "vicious bitch"!
Could I add arrogant to that? Do you think that you have the power to take any of the Florida regions out of the SEDIV?
Since you seem to have more facts and figures than the "Shell Answer Man", can you tell us how many drivers and workers supplied by any of the Florida regions at the Barber race track last July?
I&#39;m sure you have those figures on hand and can supply them to us all.

[Mattberg]

Chris,

Vicious? Who&#39;s trying to take races away for their own financial gain and power? I just want to race without driving 14 hours. I can run three Nationals and six without driving more than a three hours or so and I have two tracks less than an hour while living in the middle of two major metropolitan cities. I&#39;m not vicious, I&#39;m angry. :angry: Regional executives are more interested in money, power and recognition than the product and people that fuel this club. Why must everything always end up on the shoulders of the drivers in the form of some additional burden or expense?

And I have no idea how many Florida folks went to Barber but I&#39;d bet it was significantly more than Alabama folks at Sebring because Barber is quite a draw. Personally, I&#39;d be more than happy to make the trip to Barber just because of the track. I&#39;d also go to the Runoffs if they were at Laguna Seca but you won&#39;t be seeing me at Topeka. Regardless, I have no problem with Alabama region participants not coming to Florida. That wasn&#39;t the point. The point is, cancelling Florida races in order to make an Alabama region race at Roebling Road the "only game in town" is wrong. In other words, I can understand people not wanting to make the trip to Florida for a race if it&#39;s not to their liking or too far and I&#39;ll gladly accept that. But why must Florida racers be FORCED to make a trip to a race or a track they really don&#39;t want to go to?

As far as having any power to take Florida out of the SEDIV, I never represented I did. But, I think I can safely say that should races be taken away there&#39;s a very good chance that it would happen. They have plenty of tracks, people and a BoD seat, as well as four of the most popular races in the country that bolster a significant cash position, second only to Chicago. I don&#39;t think Florida would have any fear of standing on their own if push came to shove. So it&#39;s not arrogance, just analysis of options and a potential business eventuality. I seriously don&#39;t think Florida would really have any other choice. :023:

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Nov 29 2005, 05:59 AM
Hey moderator...can we move this to the regional (SE) section? maybe it&#39;s me, but it seems he said- she said derisive and nearly name calling...

I know..I don&#39;t have to read it, LOL....but even still, it&#39;s not in the proper area, IMHO...

66907



Jake, it&#39;s actually looking to be more of a national problem in scope. I heard that a number of races have been cancelled for the same reasons in other regions around the country including at least one I know of in the NEDIV. The solutions being proffered here inthe SEDIV are avenues I would hope other regional officials would chose not to emulate ro consider as solutions. ;)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 29 2005, 08:43 AM
I heard that a number of races have been cancelled for the same reasons in other regions around the country including at least one I know of in the NEDIV. The solutions being proffered here inthe SEDIV are avenues I would hope other regional officials would chose not to emulate ro consider as solutions. ;)

66923


Maybe because the Regions up here work as a TEAM. NER has control of NHIS and LRP...yet we don&#39;t hoard the race dates, we have plenty. Drivers from other Regions asked for less of a &#39;focus&#39; on NHIS for the NARRC championship...and it was decided to move a date &#39;out of town&#39;.

Guess what? That sucks for me but it&#39;s better for the Division as a whole. NER loses revenue, someone else picks it up. It&#39;s about being fair to the drivers who want to have a little more equity.

I truly believe that if the majority feel like you do Matt, FLA should break off into it&#39;s own Division. I especially love how you have 3-4 first hand accounts of that &#39;secret&#39; meeting that are polar opposites, yet you only consider half of them to be based in any fact. It&#39;s all about your agenda.

It&#39;s not a National problem, it&#39;s about you not wanting to share your ball on the playground. The greater good means nothing to you. As I have said before, this proposal could be good for the SeDiv, or bad...but to frame it like you have is a joke.

Move it to SeDiv, we don&#39;t care.

AB

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 29 2005, 03:10 PM
Maybe because the Regions up here work as a TEAM. NER has control of NHIS and LRP...yet we don&#39;t hoard the race dates, we have plenty. Drivers from other Regions asked for less of a &#39;focus&#39; on NHIS for the NARRC championship...and it was decided to move a date &#39;out of town&#39;.

Guess what? That sucks for me but it&#39;s better for the Division as a whole. NER loses revenue, someone else picks it up. It&#39;s about being fair to the drivers who want to have a little more equity.

I truly believe that if the majority feel like you do Matt, FLA should break off into it&#39;s own Division. I especially love how you have 3-4 first hand accounts of that &#39;secret&#39; meeting that are polar opposites, yet you only consider half of them to be based in any fact. It&#39;s all about your agenda.

It&#39;s not a National problem, it&#39;s about you not wanting to share your ball on the playground. The greater good means nothing to you. As I have said before, this proposal could be good for the SeDiv, or bad...but to frame it like you have is a joke.

Move it to SeDiv, we don&#39;t care.

AB

66929


Andy,

I don&#39;t disagree with you but I don&#39;t think you&#39;re grasping the situation. These other regions ARE getting a share of the races. No one is stopping them from doing so nor is anyone hoarding race dates. There are 25 SARRC race dates and Florida has eight of them spread out over four tracks. There are eight at two tracks in GA/SC and nine at three tracks in NC/VA. Does that not sound like good distribution? National distribution is if anything, already terribly skewed towards GA/SC with half or five of the races on only two tracks, Florida with three races on three tracks and NC/VA with two on two tracks.

The problem is that the regions in question are not getting the job done and cancelling races. Their solution is to restrict Florida and North Carolina in order to force those drivers and workers to go to their races. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that none of these regions have track options so they all end up at one track, Roebling Road. Now we&#39;re looking at a terribly uneven distribution of races where theoretically one third of all SEDIV nationals and as many as half of all SARRC races would take place at a one track. Talk about focus on a single track! How would you feel if you were restricted to one race each at LRP and NHIS and the rest would HAVE to be at Mid Ohio? So, to even keep your license you&#39;d have to make two trips to Ohio every year! That&#39;s what we&#39;re looking at here. My options are even worse than most Floridians because I have a conflict with the Roebling double so therefore I not only would have to make the 6 hour trip to the single there but tow the 13 hours to Atlanta!

And just for the record Andy, those polar opposites you refer to have mostly come around to admit that this proposal was in fact discussed and will be tabled for Jekyll Island so I am not framing anything nor do I have any agenda other than to protect our race schedule which is more than equitable given the number of tracks and racers we have and in line with what other areas currently have. Even Bama&#39; Barry has acknowledged it and went as far as to say that money was a major motivation. Suffice to say, the general response I got at Sebring was that if it even looked like it had a chance, Florida would most probably split off and I would suspect to see some upset folks in North Carolina as well, which would hurt the division severely.

[charrbq]

I will be most interested to see how a region of the geographic dimension and member contengency will manage the where-with-all to summon the power to seperate themselves from a geographic division when they are in the center of that division. If that should happen (lol) then what division would they join? Who would want them? I would certainly hope the approach division would have the right to refuse their admittance if such a move was made. Of course, the plan might be to form their own division. But what would be the name...South South East Div (SSEDIV), Florida Div (FLADIV), I know...Mostest Southern Div (MSD).

[Mattberg]

You obviously were not around in 1991. :D Lots of cash in the bank and lots of customers. CENDIV did it. FLADIV? We could have 6 nationals at four tracks and fill them all pretty well. Just set a bunch of participation records at the last regional and things are looking pretty strong. Don&#39;t be surprised if it happens. The Citrus Car Club of America maybe? :happy204:

The distribution is fair as it is now. Screw with it by taking races away and distributing them all to Roebling Road and you&#39;ll guarantee it happening. I&#39;m all for Alabama getting races but not at Roebling. Get Barber back and I&#39;ll be all for a redistribution but I think it should come from races at Roebling which gets WAY too many.

GO FLORIDA! :023:

[charrbq]

Your frequent use of the word "obvious" reflects on your ignorance. I&#39;ve been a member since 1975. Their was much more involve with the separation of CENDIV and MIDIV. Geography was only one of the considerations. Thankfully, there are a lot more reasonable and level heads in the club than you and your "friends".

[Krysd]

QUOTE(Capt.John @ Nov 26 2005, 06:14 PM)
Matt...
1. Who is "THEY"? A name or a face would help one know who we are talking about. A nameless, faceless reference to an entity known only as "they" does not give clear and concice information regarding the identityof those who you feel have performed a diservice to the SCCA members of SEDIV.




"THEY"? Who cares? The officials who voted! What difference do their names make? It was a general reference to officials taking actions in conflict to their contituency&#39;s wishes as a general practice. They voted as a group so it makes it hard to name names or condemn the enitre group but if that&#39;s what you want, so be it. The whole BoD. Since they only selectively make their votes public there&#39;s no way to know who "THEY" are. When the votes stop taking place behind closed doors I&#39;ll send you a list.

Actually the vote is taken on the phone and the results are what counts. If you want to know how your Area Rep. voted, ASK him/her. Our Area Representative now is Bill Weston, he is stepping down and K P Jones was elected to take his.





QUOTE(Capt.John @ Nov 26 2005, 06:14 PM)
2. What was the Spec Miata vote in 2004 about, where a decision had been made by "they" ( Same group as rerfered to above ) some months before negating the wishes of the drivers ? There were two meetings in 2004, Jekyll and Atlanta. When I departed the room at both of these meetings the carpet--rug-- was still very much intact.




The Spec Miata National proposal and subsequent vote is what I was taling about. No offense John but where have you been the past two years? Although I can believe people didn&#39;t know much about it, as it was kept pretty quiet. Exactly why I want to make sure this current issue is not handled the same way. Also, the issue is about official decisions and protocol in general, not just SEDIV topics. This is an issue of both divisional and National scope.

The GCR states that:

“A Regional Class with participation levels 0.5 above the
participation requirements outlined in paragraph 17.1.11.A.
for two (2) successive years may be considered for inclusion
in the National Championship racing program, except Improved
Touring.”

(The participation requirements are 3.5 average for the year.)

The SCCA counted cars for 2003 and 2004 and SM exceeded the participation numbers by a significant percentage, the recommendation by the CRB to take SM to a National class was posted in FasTrac for member comment. The BOD voted to make the class a National class which was again posted in FasTrac. The fact that we are anticipating over 100 SM cars at the Jan. National at Sebring will attest to the acceptance and support of the majority of SM drivers.



QUOTE(Capt.John @ Nov 26 2005, 06:14 PM)
3. Since the afore ositive “they”, cannot be trusted with the well being nor money of the Regions of SEDIV, this amounts to a vote of no confidence.
I’m certain that a plethora of volunteers are patiently waiting in the wings, anxious to be tapped on the shoulder with the golden sword so that they may go forth as the “new and improved they”.

There we go with the “volunteer” trump card. Always the last resort. If it’s so bad don’t do it. If you hate it, don’t do it. If you can’t do it, don’t accept the responsibility and then say it’s not your fault because you’re a volunteer or that no one else will do it. If Florida region can’t cut it, fold it into CFR. Same for any other region. That’s actually what I’d like to see. John you’re a very nice guy but all I’m hearing from you and Krys Dean is excuses and how bad it is and how you’re tired of hearing complaints about workers and officials. I was shocked to hear you agree with the concept of reducing the number of races as it sounded like someone who was simply throwing in the towel. Conversely I have seen little or no ositive pro-active measures taken to improve the situation. Maybe it can’t be done. If not, fold up the tent, relinquish the region to CFR and become a member of CFR. But don’t try and keep the region alive by downsizing the market to fit what the region can provide.

The Florida Region has a schedule for 2006 that includes:
1-National
5-Enduros
1-Double SARRC and Two single SARRC’s
1-12 Hour
And a drivers school
A total of nine (9) racing weekends

The only race that I am aware of losing is the “Christmas in July” event (that would have been number ten) that has had poor participation and problems drawing workers, it simply wasn’t a race that was supported by the racers or the workers.

Florida Region is doing just fine, in spite of what some “quasi” members might want you to think. We don’t have any problems that any other region doesn’t have, we have good volunteers (although more would be welcome), a good BOD , an excellent BOD elect for next year and we are financially solvent. And more importantly than that, the BOD is made up of a plethora of racers. John Anderson drives an IT car and teams with some other BOD members to drive a SM in the 12 hour, John Zucarelli drives a FA in SARRC, Al Capuano has an IT Porsche he will run in SARRC and regional events, Mike Finn Races both Enduro and SARRC races in his ITA Nissan, Rennie Bryant is a licensed driver, Chuck Lonsdale is the epitome of volunteers and rarely misses an event, Jim Akiyama is a licensed driver and works EVERY event he is in town and his Wife Ina works virtually EVERY event as our Chief Registrar. The person who will likely be RE next year is a past SARRC FA champion and finished second in the points this year, these and other racers are the volunteers who make up Florida Region and I am certain that they, like me, have no wish to cut races, but if no one comes (and that includes workers) you can’t have a race, that’s not “throwing in the towel”, just good administration.

There are those who would like to see CFR and Florida Region combined for there own purposes, but they are in the minority and CERTAINLY don’t represent the thinking of the Florida Region majority. Frankly Matt, if you are so enamored of the Central Florida Region, change your’ Region of Record, I doubt if anyone in Florida Region would notice or care.


QUOTE(Capt.John @ Nov 26 2005, 06:14 PM)
Doctors practice medicine, lawyers practice law. Could we be considered to be practicing Administration? Maybe with enough practice we&#39;ll get it right.
Capt.John




Perhaps we should be looking into Administration malpractice. As far as geting it right? Well it&#39;s been years and years and we still have no automated registration system. That&#39;s administration. We have little if any technology at work to the extent we could be using it. Why are we not e-mailing race notices and other marketing information to racers? I&#39;ve never received a thing and it costs NOTHING! One letter a few keystrokes and, VOILA! That&#39;s administration. Techonolgy is painfully absent from our administration both in SEDIV and Topeka. To me it&#39;s mind boggling. You want me to write a plan? No problem. I have a copy around here of the one I wrote three years ago with full financials and pro formae included. All that&#39;s missing are the bids from some system integrators.

The lack of On-line registration is at the recommendation of our Chief Registrar, and I support her recommendation 100%. SCCA National has a system that is being implemented and will allow for online registration, online payment etc. The system is not yet available for the Regions, but when it is, it will encompass all of the information we need to run an event. To spend money on a system that is marginal at best in the short term would be irresponsible and “bad administration”.

As someone who is in the computer business (my Company does software that runs ATM systems) I would be interested in reviewing your “plan” It should make some interesting reading.

Matt, your continued use of half truth and innuendo leaves one to assume that you have an agenda that is at odds with the best interests of the Florida Region, I have no idea what that agenda might be, but you certainly make the old adage true, “don’t wrestle with a pig in the mud, the pig will enjoy it and you will only get dirty.

I, for one, have wrestled this pig long enough.
Spew away Matt, every Jackass has to bray.

Krys Dean

BTW, Matt I notice that your posts say “The majority shall rule” at the bottom, maybe you ought to join, oh that’s right you don’t join, volunteer, or “get involved”, sorry, my bad.


--------------------
The majority shall rule.

[Mattberg]

Consider the changing of my region of record done. You tell us everything is fine and John Anderson is telling me it&#39;s a mess. You just lost another member. Nice going. You aren&#39;t pro Florida, you are just pro official. How you can sit back an allow Roebling Road to become the center of the universe is beyond me. Your support of this proposal is an affront to every racer in the state. I suggest that more Florida region drivers switch over to CFR as well if Krys Dean is representative of the kind of administration we have in Florida region.


GO FLORIDA! :023:

[Mattberg]

One quick phone cal to Topeka and a fax and it&#39;s done. I am now a member of CFR. Funds for my dues to the Florida region will be transferred to CFR through Topeka. :023:

Thanks Krys. Don&#39;t know why I didn&#39;t think of doing that sooner. :happy204:

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 29 2005, 03:05 PM
One quick phone cal to Topeka and a fax and it&#39;s done. I am now a member of CFR. Funds for my dues to the Florida region will be transferred to CFR through Topeka. :023:

Thanks Krys. Don&#39;t know why I didn&#39;t think of doing that sooner. :happy204:

66964


Phew...so you ARE NOT swithcing to NER??

OK, everybody relax...the crisis is over...

:rolleyes:

[tom_sprecher]

Wow! I can&#39;t believe this is still an active topic. :119: Talk about WAY too much time on your hands. I think someone needs to step away from the computer, get some friends and then maybe get a life.

The quickest way to kill a rat is with a trap, but you have to get rid of the food source if you want to make sure it does not come back. You guys need to quit feeding this one. :bash_1_:

[charrbq]

Ageed, I&#39;m done. This clown has had way more than his 15 seconds of fame.

[Toni]

Barry, you&#39;re so cute when you&#39;re angry. Your face gets sooo red.

My reply I did too
your reply did not
my reply did
your reply not

The proposal to limit races and those who put them on is out in the open. We&#39;ll see what materializes in January. Hopefully all the regions who want to race will be able to race and when they want to.

BTW - Alabama raced at Talledga in the mid 70s (I raced that one) and the late 80s (steward at that one). Both times the Region decided that they did not have the staff to continue racing.

did too giggle

Toni Creighton

[Rob May]

This meeting is Friday before the banquet? Please tell me what time, and if all are welcome.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by Rob May@Nov 30 2005, 04:24 AM
This meeting is Friday before the banquet? Please tell me what time, and if all are welcome.

67019



I&#39;ve been told it&#39;s a closed meeting of regional execs only and not open to the general membership. Now that I&#39;ve announced that, I&#39;m hoping they&#39;ll try and show me up and make it an open meeting! :023:

GO FLORIDA! :happy204:

[Toni]

Rob,

Call your RE or call one of the Directors.

Bill Weston outgoing Area 3
KP Jones incoming Area 3
Kay Farier Area 12

There has been no public announcement of time or location.

Toni

[Mattberg]

bump...

I&#39;d like all you officials who said this thing wasn&#39;t anything real or official to deny it once again just for the record. Then I&#39;m just going to check how many of your names are on the official e-mail that went out from the division confirming the details of said proposal titled "RACE REALIGNMENT PROPOSAL" authored by Fred Clark whoever that is, which I just happened to receive today. By the way it has all the addressees names on it. And Barry H., I think you already know your name is one of the first on the list. :happy204: Someone&#39;s been telling fibs Barry. :D

The proposal is real Florida and North Carolina folks. And it&#39;s way worse than I thought.

[Mattberg]

...not sure how to post it in original form and I don&#39;t want to publish it any other way. I can forward the e-mail to you if you&#39;d like.

One note I will pass on is that it calls for no races from "runoffs" to Jan. Bye Bye Turkey Trot. We only had what? 400+ entries last week? It&#39;s starting to sound more like the other regions just don&#39;t want us to enjoy success to make their failures seem less significant. Come race in Florida folks. B) Plenty of competition and the best workers in the world.

GO FLORIDA...and NORTH CAROLINA! :happy204:

[Chris Wire]

Please forward said email to:

cwire*at*therecoveryroom*dot*com

and

twire*at*mindspring*dot*com

...if you would be so kind. As I mentioned, my position has already been communicated to my RE, but maybe another email or phone call is in order.

Any proposal that eliminates the Turkey Trot needs to get blasted.

"To the moon, Alice; to the moon! :D

"From each according to their means, to each according to their needs."

Now where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, history has already proven many times over the failures of socialism in many forms. There is absolutely no need for the division to limit the time frame under which a region can conduct races. We live in a capitalist society; let the marketplace determine which races succeed and which ones fail.

I don&#39;t deny that there will be issues that need to be addressed in the future for the long-term health of the Club Racing program in SEDiv. But whatever solutions come to pass, on it&#39;s face, this one doesn&#39;t appear to be the answer. I would love to hear what comes out of the meeting, from as many sources as possible. It will be interesting to compare perspectives.

I would suggest to the leadership of any region that would support such a proposal: Give the leaders of CFR and FR a call and see if they will share just what it is that they do so well that leads to such highly successful events. I&#39;m sure that they would share some of the knowledge they have acquired over the many years of great events, as to what works, what doesn&#39;t, and how to begin a new or improve an existing racing program. Let me give you my perspective on what CFR has that makes is such a successful region:

1) Great leadership (people)
2) Great race staff (people)
3) Great workers (people)
4) Great members (people)
5) Sebring
6) Daytona

Now any region without 2 terrific racetracks may start out at a disadvantage, but a region with as many wonderful, dedicated people as CFR has can easily make it work if they approach it properly. The key is to find out what works and do it. Tying the hands of other regions to make your job easier is simply wrong.

I believe I have shown a sympathy to other regions&#39; plight in getting a race program started, but I absolutely will not entertain a proposal that limits CFR&#39;s ability to conduct races when 80% of the rest of the country has already parked their cars for the winter.

A dressed-up pig is still a pig.

[Mattberg]

Well said Chris. :happy204:

GO FLORIDA ...and NORTH CAROLINA! :023:

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Dec 8 2005, 02:34 PM
...not sure how to post it in original form and I don&#39;t want to publish it any other way. I can forward the e-mail to you if you&#39;d like.

One note I will pass on is that it calls for no races from "runoffs" to Jan. Bye Bye Turkey Trot. We only had what? 400+ entries last week? It&#39;s starting to sound more like the other regions just don&#39;t want us to enjoy success to make their failures seem less significant. Come race in Florida folks. B) Plenty of competition and the best workers in the world.

GO FLORIDA...and NORTH CAROLINA! :happy204:

67628


Matt,

I have been, and probably will continue to be - given your methods of delivery, one of your biggest critics. Please forward me the information. If I read it like you read it, I will be the first to apologize on this forum.

andybettencourt AT hotmail.com

AB

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 8 2005, 11:59 PM
Matt,

I have been, and probably will continue to be giben your methods of delivery, one of your biggest critics. Please forward me the information. If I read it like you read it, I will be the first to apologize on this forum.

andybettencourt AT hotmail.com

AB

67652


As a newbie and interested party please send me one as well. I&#39;ll make it easy so you can simply click on my email: [email protected] , or
"mailto:[email protected]". Thanks,

Ron

Dang, code didn&#39;t work. Anyhow, there is the address.

[Mattberg]

Someone please tell me how to post this! I can&#39;t handle the e-mail requests. :119:

[fixrim]

Matt, get a life! You are known for flames and attacks. The terrible officials of the SCCA happen to be regular people who love racing. Your attacks on them and others is nauseating....

PS Last year you said I&#39;d never race again... Bad news for you, I raced all year!

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by fixrim@Dec 9 2005, 01:07 AM
Matt, get a life! You are known for flames and attacks. The terrible officials of the SCCA happen to be regular people who love racing. Your attacks on them and others is nauseating....

PS Last year you said I&#39;d never race again... Bad news for you, I raced all year!

67662


On second thought Bob...you&#39;re just not worth it... :023:

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Dec 8 2005, 09:28 PM
And from what I hear you just keep on cheating, but now you just find ways to stay under the radar. And I think I said you should never be ALLOWED to race again, not that you wouldn&#39;t race again. You&#39;re a cheater Bob. Always have been always will be. Either for ego or to promote your company. Very sad. And now you come into something in which you have no interest for the opportunity of trying to discredit those who exposed your cheating and dishonesty. You never got picked for the team as a kid, did you?

67665


Sigh...........

I am SURE I will regret this...and I am SURE Bob can defend himself just fine...but, nevertheless,

Matt....what do you hear? HOW does Bob "keep on cheating"? WHAT ways does he use to keep it under the radar?

If you are going to slam, back it up. Facts..real documentable FACTS. You need to put up or shut up. Name the protest and the outcome. Copy the results and post them.

And as you used the term "keep on", then you&#39;ll need to list the first offense, and then the follow ups that you are refering to.

No "I got a phone call from a high placed but un-nameable source" BS, just DOCUMENTED (available to anyone) FACTS. If that&#39;s not possible, then we will all take it that you are blowing more smoke.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Dec 9 2005, 06:13 AM
No "I got a phone call from a high placed but un-nameable source" BS, just DOCUMENTED (available to anyone) FACTS. If that&#39;s not possible, then we will all take it that you are blowing more smoke.

67685


Jake,

Why is a name needed to represent something as FACT? What you don&#39;t seem to grasp here is that there can be serious recourse for some of these officials. If they see something bad going on but are in the minority there&#39;s little they can do other than alienate themselves. There have been some pretty nasty territory battles down here among officials and doing the right thing openly and publicly is sometimes impossible without ending up under the wheels of the train. Look at the response here from officials involved to Toni Creighton&#39;s confirmation and comments (no one likes to be caught in a lie :happy204: ). So, often they come to me when they see an issue that needs to be addressed. That said, I don&#39;t just go blurt it out either. I spend time checking facts, calling people, confirming details, getting documentation and evaluating the issue as to its validity, importance and impact. If I championed every cause I get a call on I&#39;d have no time for racing! I got tons of calls from people wanting me to start an outrage campaign about the new 1275 rule but I really couldn&#39;t confirm any facts, reports of favoritism or see any one-sided impact or injured party.

Conversely, this was a serious issue that was confirmed by numerous people, both named and unamed, and backed up with written documentation. I wrote a couple of letters, called five regional executives and officials, two members of the BoD, numerous drivers from the different regions, reviewed race schedules, calculated the proposal&#39;s impact and analyzed the entire situation with the input of no less than ten others supplied with all of the data. All of this before the first post went up. Since then I&#39;ve secured the written documentation, recorded the region of record and official position of each and every person on the copy list of said proposal and sent out another ten letters and endless e-mails. Jake, I don&#39;t champion any cause without facts and I put in the effort before during and after. As in other causes I&#39;ve backed, this one is turning out to be EVERYTHING I said it was down to the last detail with undeniable accuracy. If that&#39;s blowing smoke to you, so be it, but I think the drivers in Florida and North Carolina will see it much differently. And, if you really need the name of the person who originally leaked the info, I&#39;ll send you the e-mailed proposal and you can guess. Sorry, but that&#39;s as close as I can get you. I will tell you that it&#39;s definately one of the people on the copy list! :023:

Last, I now have the written documentation which numerous officials denied ever existed (even though their names are on it) and around forty other people have asked for and received copies from me, none of whom have challenged the details I originally presented. Actually, even the non-believers have turned 180 degrees after seeing the "smoking gun". So now, let&#39;s take a real close look at who is credible here and who is not. Let&#39;s see...A driver worried about drivers and regions losing races in a political and financial territory war among self admitted financially motivated officials OR those same officials who would conceal these issues, lie about them and then have us believe it wasn&#39;t happening telling us: "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"? :happy204:

What I don&#39;t understand Jake is how you, as a driver, could defend the actions surrounding this issue. I hope the reason you&#39;re speaking out is that you just don&#39;t like me or my methods. :023:

GO FLORIDA and NORTH CAROLINA! :happy204:

[Toni]

Here ya&#39; go Matt.

I&#39;ve tried to send the proposal as an attachment. We&#39;ll see if it works. I received it third or forth hand 2 days ago. It matches the notes I took. The other distribution that is going around is a copy of the draft minutes of the meeting. They confirm there will be a Friday night meeting. RE of CCR is to arrange the place.

Of course we all know that this will remove me from any and every distribution list forevermore.

Toni

[Andy Bettencourt]

Well I am not turning 180 degrees on the issue. All I saw from you Matt was a PROPOSAL, nothing more. If you saw the types of self-serving &#39;proposals&#39; and accusations I have over the years, just for the 3 Advisory Committies I have worked on, YOU may think there was some sort or underground effort to overthrow the SCCA.

If this was a court of law, you would have proven nothing. You have a document that was created based on a perceived NEED, and put before others. You have two factions of people saying totally opposite things - cancelling out each others credibility on the "facts" - leaving an impartial jury nothing to do but throw their hands up and not believe anyone. Frankly, the majority you think should RULE is against you in how many people have opposing views of what happened in some meeting.

Just because the idea may be a bad one, or favors a group other than your own, doesn&#39;t mean there was this huge conspiracy to ram-rod it through. If the people in charge of your Region were informed of the proposal, and they had their votes counted (which hasn&#39;t even happened yet because it was tabled), then there is no conspiracy.

Bottom line from a bystander? Quit it with the drama. Put out the facts and ask people to voice their opinion to the appropriate people in order to get something passed or squashed. We still do not have enough credible info on the intent or the facts of this to make a good judgement.

I still say this is a SE issue only, and should/could be handled in a much more professional way. Ask first, shoot later. If they deserve to be shot, pull the trigger - but don&#39;t start an e-mail with your guns blazing...it makes the people who volunteer for this stuff (like me) think of you in a less than positive light.

AB

[Mattberg]

Andy... the fact that all those who originally denied this was discussed are on the copy list for this e-mail is troublesome, don&#39;t ya&#39; think? Even more troubling is the fact that three BoD members are on the list as well. This isn&#39;t some random idea that was brought up at a cocktail party. This is a serious proposal prepared as the result of discussions from the mid-year meeting and distributed to only a select few.

I spoke with Mike Van S. at Sebring last week and he ws shocked. No one knows anything about it. It&#39;s not been reported in any notes or web sites controlled by regions. Nowhere. This was done on the QT. Now it&#39;s in the open and the denials are rolling in to try and discredit the messenger and deflect the issue. Typical tactic. Keep it quiet until the vote and there&#39;s little chance of dissenting opinion. It&#39;s a bullshit tactic I&#39;ve seen over and over. Right now they way I see it, the vote on this will be in favor which really sucks. I just want those small regions who will be the swing votes that they are getting snookered. They&#39;re not getting any races.

[tom_sprecher]

God, I thought this post was dead, but I was wrong. It has been pulled back from the sewage from whence it came.

That&#39;s quite a document you guys got there. Pretty fancy letterhead but I&#39;m having a hard time reading the signature.

As far as "...not sure how to post it in original form and I don&#39;t want to publish it any other way. I can forward the e-mail to you if you&#39;d like..." it isn&#39;t rocket science unless this e-mail is BS.

Maybe you could cut and past the entire e-mail you keep touting and let us all in on the conspiracy. :rolleyes: That way I could (and would) take action instead of reading your ramblings. Don’t forget the header so I know who to call or visit.

Until you present factual information, quit wasting space here. You know, put up or shut up.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by tom_sprecher@Dec 9 2005, 02:59 PM
God, I thought this post was dead, but I was wrong. It has been pulled back from the sewage from whence it came.

That&#39;s quite a document you guys got there. Pretty fancy letterhead but I&#39;m having a hard time reading the signature.

As far as "...not sure how to post it in original form and I don&#39;t want to publish it any other way. I can forward the e-mail to you if you&#39;d like..." it isn&#39;t rocket science unless this e-mail is BS.

Maybe you could cut and past the entire e-mail you keep touting and let us all in on the conspiracy. :rolleyes: That way I could (and would) take action instead of reading your ramblings. Don’t forget the header so I know who to call or visit.

Until you present factual information, quit wasting space here. You know, put up or shut up.

67718



Tom, I&#39;m not sure how to do some of this stuff because the document was an attachment but here&#39;s the e-mail:

>>>>From: "Kaye" <[email protected]>
>>>>To: "Wayne Henry" <[email protected]>,"Barry Hair - ALA - 001"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Bob MacIsaac - ATL - 003"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Brian
>>>>Johns - Tenn - 040" <[email protected]>,"Danny Boyd - Dixie - 095"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Gerald Street - Chatt" <[email protected]>,"Glen
>
>>>>Thompson - BRR - 103" <[email protected]>,"Greg Smith - ODR -
> 063"
>>>><[email protected]>,"John Anderson - FLR - 011"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Julie Odom - MGR - 091"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Mark Senior - NC - 055"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Mark Tothermel - TVR - 093"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Martin Bartlett - CCR - 061"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Rick Balderson - CFR - 083"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Robert Mayes - SCR - 079"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Ted Migchelbrink - BUCC - 034"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Walt Wurzbach - GCR - 012"
>>>><[email protected]>
>>>>CC: "&#39;Bill Weston&#39;" <[email protected]>,"KP"
>>>><[email protected]>,"George Delong" <[email protected]>
>>>>Subject: Idea from Fred Clark
>>>>Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:01:12 -0500
>>>>
>>>>Hello everyone,
>>>>
>>>>Attached is the proposal that Fred Clark came up with and briefly
>>>>discussed at the mid-year meeting.
>>>>
>>>>Kaye
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: TED MIGCHELBRINK [mailto:[email protected]]
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 3:10 PM
>>>>To: Bill Weston; Kaye Fairer
>>>>Subject: mid year
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Area directors, I am attaching an idea that Fred Clark came up with
> to
>>>>help with the equitable distribution of races for our division. See
> you
>>>>in a few weeks.

[Capt.John]

This piece of paper --- Fred Clarks proposal--- is just that, A FREAKIN PROPOSAL! I was sent a copy of it Sun. or Mon. by Kaye Fairer Area 12 Director. THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME I SAW THE ACTUAL DOCUMENT. A folded up piece of paper was being passed around the room. BUT NO ACTION WAS TAKEN ON IT. This document was presented to our Race Board on Tues. night. Needless to say it "ain&#39;t gonna fly" in the FL. Region. THe Race Director Mike Finn, who was with me at the meeting in ATL. said "what kind of crap is this". Not posting something on the web site, or sending out tons of e-mail on someones proposal hardly constitutes an attempt to hide something from our members and drivers. We didn&#39;t post some of the more recent proposals issued by the Vatican either. The proposal addressed not racing over the end of the year holidays, making a giant leap of logic this came out as getting rid of the "Turkey Trot" in Nov to some. RACING WILL NOT CHANGE TO A FOUR (4) EVENT SCHEDULE IN THE FL> REGION. John Zucarrelli will become the new RE effective 1/1//06 as I did not seek re-election and he was unopposed. He shares similar feelings on the matter of the "PROPOSAL". I have received no indication of the details of the meeting that is supposedly taking place Fri. night at Jekyll. If I do, I will of course pass these on to John Z. So there you now know: What I knew, WhenI knew it, and Who told me. All cards on the table face -up, and nothing up the sleeves of my T-Shirt. I even changed the color on the Jet-Ranger from black to plaid. Jettison the canopy, and pull up on the "D" handle .....I&#39;m outta here......


Capt. John
Reg.Exec
Fl. Region-SCCA

[Toni]

Tom

Give me your email address and I will forward the two emails to you. Then you can judge for yourself. You will be able to post them if you want or disregard them. I posted the proposal as it was attached to the distribution that was forwarded to me. That&#39;s what there is. I did not see the written proposal in the meeting. I was only a listener as it was proposed.

This proposal is real and made by credible people with official positions in SEDiv Regions. I&#39;m sorry you don&#39;t like the way the message was brought to you - but it was brought to you. Would you have preferred this proposal be passed without your knowing about it? It very well could have been.

As ridiculous as this proposal seems to me, there are REs in this division who support this proposal. The REs get to vote. You and I and Matt don&#39;t have a vote - only a voice. If you are not aware of something how can you have an opinion?

I do hope you are able to continue to race when and where you want to race with SCCA.

Toni Creighton
[email protected]
404-625-3386

[Mattberg]

How&#39;s that for "putting up" Tom?

July this got started and we find out about it in December a month from a vote? Dirty pool my friend. Not a SINGLE non-official driver I&#39;ve talked to knew anything about this. That&#39;s a fact and I&#39;ve talked to a lot of them.

So If you&#39;re going to fight this if it&#39;s true, you&#39;ve got your facts. You also have the lies, concealment and denial of the other regional officials right here on this site. We welcome your help in the fight to stop this outrageous proposal. Right now as I see it we&#39;re behind on the vote. Will probably lose by two or three.

What else do you need me to do? I know you&#39;ll have something else because you don&#39;t want anyone to believe me. What&#39;s next? Videotape? Recorded conversations? Affadavits? Written testimony and depositions?

[Chris Wire]

Originally posted by tom_sprecher@Dec 9 2005, 09:59 AM
God, I thought this post was dead, but I was wrong. It has been pulled back from the sewage from whence it came.

That&#39;s quite a document you guys got there. Pretty fancy letterhead but I&#39;m having a hard time reading the signature.

As far as "...not sure how to post it in original form and I don&#39;t want to publish it any other way. I can forward the e-mail to you if you&#39;d like..." it isn&#39;t rocket science unless this e-mail is BS.

Maybe you could cut and past the entire e-mail you keep touting and let us all in on the conspiracy. :rolleyes: That way I could (and would) take action instead of reading your ramblings. Don’t forget the header so I know who to call or visit.

Until you present factual information, quit wasting space here. You know, put up or shut up.

67718


Tom,

I&#39;ve copied & pasted the distribution list as I received it.

I don&#39;t buy into the "conspiracy" aspect of it as much as Matt does, but I do think that the membership could have been better served in an open and honest fashion. Why no articles in the regional newsletters? Why no email conversations to start getting a "feel" for how the membership might react to such a proposal?

I do think Matt&#39;s tactics could use some polishing, but there is some merit in arguement as I see it. Something like this could easily fly under the radar all the way to a vote, given the denials and verbal dancing I&#39;ve seen just in this thread.

Copy list below, complete with all the forwarding arrows:

>>>>From: "Kaye" <[email protected]>
>>>>To: "Wayne Henry" <[email protected]>,"Barry Hair - ALA - 001"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Bob MacIsaac - ATL - 003"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Brian
>>>>Johns - Tenn - 040" <[email protected]>,"Danny Boyd - Dixie - 095"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Gerald Street - Chatt" <[email protected]>,"Glen
>
>>>>Thompson - BRR - 103" <[email protected]>,"Greg Smith - ODR -
> 063"
>>>><[email protected]>,"John Anderson - FLR - 011"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Julie Odom - MGR - 091"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Mark Senior - NC - 055"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Mark Tothermel - TVR - 093"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Martin Bartlett - CCR - 061"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Rick Balderson - CFR - 083"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Robert Mayes - SCR - 079"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Ted Migchelbrink - BUCC - 034"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Walt Wurzbach - GCR - 012"
>>>><[email protected]>
>>>>CC: "&#39;Bill Weston&#39;" <[email protected]>,"KP"
>>>><[email protected]>,"George Delong" <[email protected]>
>>>>Subject: Idea from Fred Clark
>>>>Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:01:12 -0500
>>>>
>>>>Hello everyone,
>>>>
>>>>Attached is the proposal that Fred Clark came up with and briefly
>>>>discussed at the mid-year meeting.
>>>>
>>>>Kaye
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: TED MIGCHELBRINK [mailto:[email protected]]
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 3:10 PM
>>>>To: Bill Weston; Kaye Fairer
>>>>Subject: mid year
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Area directors, I am attaching an idea that Fred Clark came up with
> to
>>>>help with the equitable distribution of races for our division. See
> you
>>>>in a few weeks.

If you take a good look at what CFR stands to lose, it&#39;s pretty significant. Don&#39;t forget, we&#39;re not the only game in town. How many other organizations would jump at the chance to grab one of our traditional dates? A "lottery" guarantees us nothing compared to what we stand to lose. And what of the "NO racing around the year end holidays" crap? The Turkey Trot is an institution in CFR and probably one of our top 2 or 3 racing events. That policy would also negate any opportunity for another 24 hr race like Florida Region used to hold. Like I said before, run the races. If a weekend sucks and loses money, it won&#39;t be around very long. In turn, a successful racing program will sustain itself and grow.

Capitalism works wonderfully when you let it. Socialism (even the racing kind) sucks every time.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by Capt.John@Dec 9 2005, 03:38 PM
This piece of paper --- Fred Clarks proposal--- is just that, A FREAKIN PROPOSAL! I was sent a copy of it Sun. or Mon. by Kaye Fairer Area 12 Director. THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME I SAW THE ACTUAL DOCUMENT. A folded up piece of paper was being passed around the room. BUT NO ACTION WAS TAKEN ON IT. This document was presented to our Race Board on Tues. night. Needless to say it "ain&#39;t gonna fly" in the FL. Region. THe Race Director Mike Finn, who was with me at the meeting in ATL. said "what kind of crap is this". Not posting something on the web site, or sending out tons of e-mail on someones proposal hardly constitutes an attempt to hide something from our members and drivers. We didn&#39;t post some of the more recent proposals issued by the Vatican either. The proposal addressed not racing over the end of the year holidays, making a giant leap of logic this came out as getting rid of the "Turkey Trot" in Nov to some. RACING WILL NOT CHANGE TO A FOUR (4) EVENT SCHEDULE IN THE FL> REGION. John Zucarrelli will become the new RE effective 1/1//06 as I did not seek re-election and he was unopposed. He shares similar feelings on the matter of the "PROPOSAL". I have received no indication of the details of the meeting that is supposedly taking place Fri. night at Jekyll. If I do, I will of course pass these on to John Z. So there you now know: What I knew, WhenI knew it, and Who told me. All cards on the table face -up, and nothing up the sleeves of my T-Shirt. I even changed the color on the Jet-Ranger from black to plaid. Jettison the canopy, and pull up on the "D" handle .....I&#39;m outta here......
Capt. John
Reg.Exec
Fl. Region-SCCA

67721



Funny how some saw it in July and the FL region RE saw it this week. :happy204: John, wake up and smell the coffee. :rolleyes: You&#39;re the last person that any of these folks wanted to see it. Now go back and think about how your comments regarding the advantage of redistribution hurt us without knowing they&#39;ve been working and thinking about this since July. CAN YOU GUARANTEE WE VOTE THIS DOWN!

They way I see it there are 9 votes for as it stands. CFR, FL and NCR are the only regions I can see against and up until now I was worried about your vote. Old Dominion is probably against but all the others are a toss up. Maybe they&#39;ll chime in and let us know but I&#39;m not feeling real good about six or seven regions all within the Atlanta-Roebling area voting.

[Butch Kummer]

For the record, Atlanta Region is DEFINITELY against this proposal! This week was the first time I&#39;d seen the actual document and I&#39;ll admit it was not what I heard discussed at July&#39;s meeting.

That said, this is also just a proposal - a jumping off point for potential conversations. As I posted previously, at the July meeting there was also a(verbal) proposal to clear the calendar and have a lottery pick. That will never see the light of day either. NEITHER of these proposals has the backing to pass regardless of any backroom politics that is purported to be going on.

BTW - have you heard about the proposal to eliminate National racing? Or the one to drop IT altogether? A year ago I floated a proposal to restructure the Runoffs into three single weekend events rather than a week-long "gathering of the clans" where you get twenty minutes of track time each day. Never saw the light of day regardless of the sense it makes to the racer. I also think we can solve the problem by reducing the number of National classes to seven, but we&#39;ll never get the votes to pass that one either.

Once again, I&#39;m done.

[Mattberg]

Even funnier to me is that those RE&#39;s that would be against this proposal are only finding out about it this week versus those sponsoring it who have been informed since July. Butch, you got hoodwinked just like me my friend. I told you I had it on good authority but you told me "no way". Guess we just needed to press the issue. I think the proposal being circulated to you at this point in time was a face saving measure at best. Pretty weak attempt to try and appear to be presenting full disclosure. HEY! IT&#39;S SIX MONTHS LATER! DO YOU THINK WE&#39;RE STUPID?

I&#39;m still worried about the vote Butch. Do we have the vote of Atlanta region?

[tom_sprecher]

Matt,

Very good! It wasn&#39;t as hard as you thought, was it? I want to thank you for your quick response. Unfortunately, even though I am self employed and work out of my house, I am quite busy working for a living so I can not reciprocate in as short of time.

Credible information is what I need from you and anybody else that posts on this and other forums. Next time try starting with something that is tangible and maybe more people, including myself, may believe you from the start instead of 5+ pages into a topic.

Toni,

My email is listed on the SEDiv site under the SARRC page and here for your convenience. [email protected]. Please send me anything you have on this. We can discuss our mutual concerns at Jekyll.

Everyone else,

I for one despise socialism and welfare as we know it and feel it destroys the motivation and desire to compete and succeed. Fortunately, it appears I am in the majority, and can take comfort in that the minority is held in check by most of mankind’s common sense and need to satisfy wants through capitalism

Also, I have to agree with Butch and Capt. John that, although the proposal is very disturbing, the likelihood of the same actually becoming reality is nil. And as Chris pointed out, we as members should be informed about what our leaders are discussing especially when it affects such a large number of us in such a disconcerting way.

However, if this proposal becomes a motion, be voted on and pass I will do everything in my power to reverse the decision though the use of email, phone calls or personal visits. Believe me I can make time if I need to and regularly travel all over the Southeast on business. Plus, I’ve been looking for a good way to vent my frustrations. :bash_1_:

[Goodrad]

The bottom line is regardless of were you stand on this issue Matt got it NOTICED. I for one just like to come to the race track and race. I know some of you might disagree with that thinking, but the reality is I think that is the Majority. So I Say Thanks Matt for looking out for our interest. Neil Radloff

[Mattberg]

That&#39;s what I like too. To race. :happy204:

GO FLORIDA! :023: GO NORTH CAROLINA! :023:

P.S. De nada Goodrad. Probably get me a trip to the stewards tower at the next race for some hokey infraction like drinking a beer before the last session is over but I&#39;m gettng used to that harrassment. As long as everybody knows what&#39;s going on it&#39;s a good thing.

[Mattberg]

Don&#39;t worry folks. Just talked to Florida incoming RE John Zucarelli. He&#39;s not going to let anyone screw us. Guy from Jersey with a name like that? I&#39;m feeling way better now. :023:

Barry.....

You got a New York Jew, a Jersey Italian and a couple of angry Florida rednecks coming at you. Time to party. :happy204: Bring on your good ol&#39; boys from Alabama. You have no idea what you&#39;re walking into. :023:

ps. I&#39;m adding 438 people onto my family membership from the Sunny Isles Retirement home in Miami. :happy204:

[Drew Aldred]

The part that kills me about all of this is when Matt brought this out a few weeks ago, alot of people said about the meeting/proposal, "You&#39;re wrong, way off base". Now that it has come to light as being the truth and this proposal may get voted on, alot of people are saying, "You&#39;re wrong, way off base, this will never pass".

Well prove Matt wrong and write letters to stop this madness. If this proposal does get traction and become reality, it&#39;ll be a sad day.

Matt,

See ya at Sebring in a few weeks. I&#39;ll watch your beer while you&#39;re in the Stewards tower !!!

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Drew Aldred@Dec 9 2005, 01:32 PM
The part that kills me about all of this is when Matt brought this out a few weeks ago, alot of people said about the meeting/proposal, "You&#39;re wrong, way off base". Now that it has come to light as being the truth and this proposal may get voted on, alot of people are saying, "You&#39;re wrong, way off base, this will never pass".

Well prove Matt wrong and write letters to stop this madness. If this proposal does get traction and become reality, it&#39;ll be a sad day.

Matt,

See ya at Sebring in a few weeks. I&#39;ll watch your beer while you&#39;re in the Stewards tower !!!

67752

Way too much stuff slides by because we don&#39;t believe it could possibly happen.....

[Andy Bettencourt]

Every proposal gets voted on in one way or another. If the idea sucks (like most seem to think this one does), then it gets quickly sent to the circular file. It seems to me that somebody thought this was a good idea and the group it was put in front of didn&#39;t want to vote right away. It was tabled.

Seems resonable. If it&#39;s bad for the Division, it won&#39;t pass, if it&#39;s good for the Division, it just might. My issues with this thread aren&#39;t about the proposal itself, its about the way it was put out there that it was secret and trying to get rammed through. If it&#39;s a bad idea, it won&#39;t pass. Your elected officials are there to vote on your behalf. If you don&#39;t like the way they vote, VOTE THEM OUT or get on the ballot yourself.

That is the issue for the General Section.

AB

[Butch Kummer]

Sorry to be so long in responding, but I wanted to confirm the way I THOUGHT our RE would vote (I am Asst. RE & Competition Director for 2006). I met with her this afternoon and she emphatically stated that she would vote AGAINST this proposal should it ever be presented in the form of a motion.

Count Atlanta Region solidly in the NAY column.

I still contend this is but one proposal that was floated to address a very real problem in SEDIV and there are no black helicopters hovering.

[Mattberg]

No black helos Butch. Just want to know where you stand. Thank you.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 9 2005, 03:52 PM
Every proposal gets voted on in one way or another. If the idea sucks (like most seem to think this one does), then it gets quickly sent to the circular file. It seems to me that somebody thought this was a good idea and the group it was put in front of didn&#39;t want to vote right away. It was tabled.

Seems resonable. If it&#39;s bad for the Division, it won&#39;t pass, if it&#39;s good for the Division, it just might. My issues with this thread aren&#39;t about the proposal itself, its about the way it was put out there that it was secret and trying to get rammed through. If it&#39;s a bad idea, it won&#39;t pass. Your elected officials are there to vote on your behalf. If you don&#39;t like the way they vote, VOTE THEM OUT or get on the ballot yourself.

That is the issue for the General Section.

AB

67768

Andy, Most times I agree but there have been times stuff just got by because groups in power came together on what they thought was the greater good. That sad part is getting people to run for office is like pulling teeth.

[apexingsupra]

One the proposal by Buccanneer region was not my proposal/idea (if you can read it says Fred Clark) nor did I have any input in it.

Two, I have already said in a previous post the proposal is not one that does anything for my region (as in no) but then I guess that does not fit into Mattberg&#39;s conspiracy theory and he will ignore this again.

Three, it was not made as a motion, seconded or voted on.

Four, I don&#39;t expect to see it on the agenda at the annual meeting but then that is not up to me. It is up to the Buccanneer region since it was their idea.

Barry H.

[lateapex911]

Matt... here&#39;s what I read of your post to me;

" Why is a name needed to represent something as FACT? What you don&#39;t seem to grasp here is that there can be serious recourse for some of these officials......

.........bla bla bla bla bla...............

...............What I don&#39;t understand Jake is how you, as a driver, could defend the actions surrounding this issue. I hope the reason you&#39;re speaking out is that you just don&#39;t like me or my methods"

Huh??? What does that have to do with my post where I quoted your cheating snipes????? You are avoiding my reaction to your post accusing Bob of cheating.... without any kind of backing proof. It&#39;s a common ploy used by you.

It is obvious that you are more than happy to attempt to smear someone&#39;s name regardless of the available proof, or even facts.

Please..look up the word "integrity"...I doubt that the definition includes attacks on people without grounds.

If you have grounds, present them. If you do not, then keep it to yourself.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by apexingsupra@Dec 10 2005, 02:14 AM
One the proposal by Buccanneer region was not my proposal/idea (if you can read it says Fred Clark) nor did I have any input in it.

67789


But you also said:

"...the rules need to be changed and or someone with a large number of races needs to consider giving up a date. I would like to think the larger racing regions do not have a "tough luck" we have the dates attitude and I don&#39;t see that as such. It is about dialogue and the need to explore whether the different regions can accomplish their goals with a little "give and take".

Ok, Barry. You had no input. Why would you make the above statement defending the plan in detail which by the way had not been distributed to most yet but you seemed to know all about it? I&#39;m really starting to believe Toni, not you. Your comment is an outline of the proposal. Just coincidence? I love the fact that you&#39;re throwing it all back on Buccaneer now too. It&#39;s like tigers eating their young. :happy204: Hilarious!

Then you said:

"You also assume that Chattanooga is possibly thinking about racing at Roebling when that has never been part of any discussion or thought process with them. It would be somewhere else. "

"Somewhere else"? I thought you had no input or discussions? How would you know?


Originally posted by apexingsupra@Dec 10 2005, 02:14 AM
Two, I have already said in a previous post the proposal is not one that does anything for my region (as in no) but then I guess that does not fit into Mattberg&#39;s conspiracy theory and he will ignore this again.

67789


But you also said:

"We as a division are trying to find solutions to our problems hopefully before they become bigger problems. My region has had extreme difficulty in the last two years in scheduling a SARRC race. Every potential date we have had was occupied by a "traditional dated" (SARRC rule) event. It has taken a lot of negotiation to get even one date on the calendar and both times it has involved Florida (thank you Capt. John). Florida gave up a race weekend and did not replace it. If the Alabama region wants to put on a another SARRC race (possibly with Chattanooga) for a grand total of two races we will run into the same problem. The calendar is already full. Either the rules need to be changed and or someone with a large number of races needs to consider giving up a date. "

Really now Barry. No kool aid for me thank you. This is all about what Alabama can get. First, you talk about the proposal like you&#39;ve known about it for months and already know how it affects your region and the a second later you say you know nothing about it. Sheeesh. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by apexingsupra+Dec 10 2005, 02:14 AM-->
Three, it was not made as a motion, seconded or voted on.

67789
[/b]

Not sure about that because I heard a rumor that since this pile of dookie blew up in your faces that members will be addressed somehow on order to avoid any more fallout. I&#39;m thinking some mass mailing or maybe something at the next race or two in driver&#39;s meetings. If it weren&#39;t as far along as some of us think I&#39;m just wondering why there&#39;s such an urgency to get input.

<!--QuoteBegin-apexingsupra@Dec 10 2005, 02:14 AM
Four, I don&#39;t expect to see it on the agenda at the annual meeting but then that is not up to me. It is up to the Buccanneer region since it was their idea.

67789


Got that right. Like I said. If it comes up in the meeting I wil be there with a group of drivers and it will look like the courtroom scene from Animal House. I&#39;m just going to keep on going with the plan of making sure that this proposal is never discussed at any meeting. K? :023:

You told us that no proposal existed. Now you&#39;re saying it did but you had nothing to do with it... but your name is on the copy list. So you had nothing to do with it but you came here and denied it existed or that the issue was discussed because? Then you defended the proposal saying that SCCA SEDIV is not a free enterprise system and you said we needed to change the rules...but you had no input. You said it didn&#39;t help your region? Why would you care if it didn&#39;t help you? Why even comment let alone defend the proposal?

You say your region has no role in the proposal and gains nothing yet in another post you claim Roebling is your "home" track and they just happen to be the benefactors in a big way with this proposal. You also say that&#39;s where you plan to race and you want more races without competing dates. Then you talk about how the proposal will help you solve some problems. Which is it? I&#39;m so confused!

You really should consider politics because you&#39;re taking the Texas side step to new levels. (No offense Texas folks. Just a saying :D )

And, Barry, I don&#39;t think there&#39;s any big conspiracy. Just a greedy group of regional executives who got caught being disingenuine. You&#39;ve changed your story so many times I can&#39;t keep track.

I&#39;m a little stunned as to how defiant you are in defending the plan yet you say it does nothing for you. Hmmmmm. Ok. Whatever. Just keep this in mind. When and if this comes up for discussion I will have more paperwork than a Skadden Arps attorney proving how outrageous the proposal is. Then we&#39;re going to examine the intentions of the proposal and I&#39;m going to have this neat little graphic presentation showing how lopsided the distribution is. Then we&#39;re going to look at whomever was responsible for trying to attempt to create such a lopsided situation and make sure it never happens again without full and immediate disclosure. Then, I&#39;m going to demand that all ideas, discussions and proposals, formal and informal be published on each region&#39;s website. You wil NEVER, repeat, NEVER have closed door meetings or circulate limited distribution proposals ever again without serious recourse. Just a warning. ;)

Last Barry, I&#39;m going to lay off you for now but I&#39;m also going to ask that you abstain from voting if the proposal comes to a vote. You said it doesn&#39;t affect your region so I think that&#39;s fair. :023:

p.s. I think you owe Toni an apology. Just a personal observation. ;)


GO FLORIDA and NORTH CAROLINA! :happy204: :023:

[Chris Wire]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Dec 10 2005, 02:44 AM
You really should consider politics because you&#39;re taking the Texas side step to new levels. (No offense Texas folks. Just a saying :D )

These days you would be more accurate referring to it as the Massachusetts sidestep, or the Vermont two-step! ;)

Texas brings it straight and has been since 2001! :023: :happy204:

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by Chris Wire@Dec 11 2005, 01:55 AM
These days you would be more accurate referring to it as the Massachusetts sidestep, or the Vermont two-step! ;)

Texas brings it straight and has been since 2001! :023: :happy204:

67847



Let&#39;s just call it the Alabama Hustle!

[Mattberg]

I&#39;m also a little curious as to why this topic which is absolutely driver specific was not brought up at the many races since the meeting? I have a funny feeling that Fred Schmucker was either kept in the dark or just didn&#39;t do the right thing. I won&#39;t speculate but he&#39;s THE SARRC guy and I&#39;d think he&#39;d have informed us had he known about this. I hope he has plans to get us some information in the very near future.

[Mattberg]

This only gets worse...

More to come this afternoon. :angry:


GO FLORIDA and NORTH CAROLINA! :023:

[Mattberg]

Bump

[Mattberg]

Where&#39;s the Friday meeting guys? RE&#39;s? Anyone want to answer? Maybe I&#39;ll just show up at the rumored site... :023:

[Andy Bettencourt]

Matt,

For God&#39;s sake, let it die here in General Discussions....jeez.

AB

[tom_sprecher]

I second Andy&#39;s motion.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/images/smilies/skull.gif

[charrbq]

Ditto

[Joe Harlan]

So not to jump on Matt&#39;s wagon here. BUt what if there is really something here that will cost you guys races and or money. Where does one go to share this stuff without being shot down?
I just spent 2 months fixing an issue with bad compression specs in touring cars. I think a few people thought I was nuts and that it couldn&#39;t happen. Well check the fastrack this month, they got corrected. It is important to have a voice you guys look at this club to much like a new copper penny and it&#39;s not. SCCA is a great place to race but it&#39;s just as tarnished and any penny would be that&#39;s be around this long....Have fun and play nice. Listen to the message even if you struggle with the messenger.

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 20 2005, 06:56 PM
Listen to the message even if you struggle with the messenger.

68817


But Joe, that is so so hard ;)

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by dickita15@Dec 20 2005, 04:44 PM
But Joe, that is so so hard ;)

68818



It can be but let me tell ya...Some of the stuff that has gotten by in the past is bacause nobody was willing to take the heat for calling BS on it.......

I see a few to many fast balls get thrown right by us as a group. I know Matt come across as Chicken little cause of his delivery but when there are supporting facts why should we ignore them?

[Mattberg]

Barry,

You have 24 hours to come clean and then I&#39;m going to publish and document what you&#39;ve done this past week or two. Just a warning. I&#39;m pissed and there are going to be a lot of pissed off drivers very soon. :angry:

[Mattberg]

Last chance Barry. I can&#39;t wait 24 hours. Sorry. I Need to get on a plane and this can&#39;t wait. You&#39;ve been silent since the memo that you said "didn&#39;t exist" was produced so I sort of doubt you&#39;re going to reply anyway.

What you did last week is worse and I go public today. BTW, I pretended to be an RE and got all the information I needed to confirm it. It was easy. You guys really are morons. If you&#39;re going to do something sneaky and underhanded, at least do it right. Now I know why your region has such problems. You can&#39;t do anything without screwing it up. Three phone call deal and I found out what you were up to.

It gets published in three hours. On top of that I have the stats on your region. Very interesting. Those get published too! How embarrassing that will be you poser! :023:

p.s. Who&#39;s paying your hotel bill? HAHAHAHA :happy204: Sorry folks, a little inside joke. It&#39;ll make sense in a couple of hours. :D


GO FLORIDA and NORTH CAROLINA! :023: :happy204:

[SilverHorseRacing]

I&#39;ve been out of this for a while due to my own Mustang business taking off, but I just pent about 2 hours catching up and getting the facts as straight as I could as a driver.

First of all, Matt may a bit more "excited" than some of us about some topics, but you know what? If it were not for him bringing this to light, none of us would have been any the wiser about it until it had gone a lot further than it possibly has. I applaud him on his efforts.

Second, as I have read this thread, I see two distinct camps forming. One seems to maybe be a bit anxious about the topic, but pretty much has the same message throughout. The other camp however, seems to be changing stories and recollections of the facts as more and more details come to light. This to me is a major indicator that something indeed is awry.

CWire and I have had our disagreements in the past, as have others in this thread, but you know what? We&#39;re 100% in agreement on this one. I, like many people here, have a busy schedule and not a lot of time for the politics of the racing, we just know when our races are, and expect to be able to get our car to the track and have a good time.

This proposal, in ANY form, sucks. That&#39;s about the BEST word I can use to describe it. If you want a race weekend, eliminate the milage rule for the division, or restrict its scope more, and compete for the business. If SEDIV is one business, then it should be run as one, not as a bunch of regions fighting for limited capital like a large company with many divisions. This is why the big players (WalMart, GE, etc) always have to be watchful of someone smaller, more agile, and better at getting business, because someday they may be relegated to the staus of KMart and Sears.

If however, the division is a bunch of regions fighting for limited resources called a division just for organizational sake, then by all means, let the consumer (racer) vote for which regions should flourish (by voting with their checkbook) and which ones should flounder and possibly be absorbed by others. To do anything else would be a disservice to the racers, and an invitation for other sanctioning bodies to come in and cut up our pie even more.

Finally, I said it before, but it bears repeating... if you want a race in some region far from Daytona or Sebring or something, go for it, even if it is on the same weekend as a race I already planned on. If it&#39;s a good venue, the costs are reasonable, and people report that it&#39;s a big hit, maybe I&#39;ll be there to check it out. Maybe I won&#39;t. But the point is I will have that choice, and that&#39;s as racers all we want, the choice to race where we want, when we want. And with the beautiful weather this division is blessed with, there is no reason to stop racing just because the boys up north are heading for the heated garages.

Ok, finally, finally.... to the detractors... I understand your points, but who has been bringing the facts, and who has been deflecting here? If there are no hidden agendas, and nothing to hide, why the double-speak and changing of stories every time a new fact or memo is brought to light? I haven&#39;t been a big fan of conspiracy theory since Slick Willie left office, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

[Mattberg]

I wish I were as eloquent as Marcello... :023:

[specialtyautomo]

[quote]
Last chance Barry. I can&#39;t wait 24 hours. Sorry. I Need to get on a plane and this can&#39;t wait. You&#39;ve been silent since the memo that you said "didn&#39;t exist" was produced so I sort of doubt you&#39;re going to reply anyway.

It gets published in three hours. On top of that I have the stats on your region. Very interesting. Those get published too! How embarrassing that will be you poser! :023:

It&#39;ll make sense in a couple of hours. :D [quote] Nothing got "published" :119:

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Dec 21 2005, 06:24 PM
I wish I were as eloquent as Marcello... :023:

68888


we all do Matt :D

[Mattberg]

I waited almost 24 hours...

So here&#39;s what the scumbags did...

They didn&#39;t want any of us drivers to know what they were doing so they moved their meeting to a different hotel across town. You didn&#39;t think I&#39;d figure it out Barry? You are one stupid hick. I made three phone calls and found you out.

So they are going to have their secret meeting, "closed" of course, at the Jeckyll Island Club at 6:30 PM on the 20th in the Federal Reserve room. We will be there Barry and you will be lucky if we don&#39;t drag you out and put you in the dumpster. By the way, Who is paying for that room and your personal room? There are a number of reserved unused rooms at the convention hotel. You chose not to go there. Why? Because you&#39;re a sneaky deceptive POS.

BTW, you are not registered at the hotel we are all staying at at $49 a night. I have you staying at the $219 night Island club. Your region paying for that? Must be nice to be "someone" when you have nothing else in your life.

[Mattberg]

Anyone want to know how many registered workers and drivers there are in Alabama?

Where are you Barry you nutless wonder? I personally can&#39;t wait to confront you at the convention. I can&#39;t wait to parade you around in front of SEDIV drivers and tell them what you&#39;re trying to do. 47 drivers? 44 workers? And you want to put on races? You are the biggest joke in the world. Merge into another region because you&#39;re about as important a region as Guam. You&#39;ll be lucky to make it out of Jeckyll Island without a blanket party. If I were you I wouldn&#39;t even show up. Look for me. 6&#39;5" around 200 lbs. Can&#39;t miss me. I&#39;ll be wearing a shirt that says "Alabama Sucks". :happy204:

GO FLORIDA and NORTH CAROLINA! :023:

[Andy Bettencourt]

Yay! What a wonderful thread in the General Section! I would LOVE to follow this IN THE SOUTHEAST FORUM...why did you let it die there?

Please, in the spirit of the Holiday&#39;s Matt...

:006:

AB

[specialtyautomo]

Matt, I am one of the 47 drivers from Alabama. A few other of the drivers are my friends and customers. That being said, I assure you that most of those 44 drivers don&#39;t support Our region racing at Roebling. We would rather be at the track that is in our backyard. Personally I am at Barbers 8-15 times a year with different sanctioning bodies. We have tried to approach our BOD about this problem. We have no say or opinion in their decisions. Our current BOD has no racing experience out side of our license and SARRC rep. He is also our assistant RE. He is just as much of the problem as Barry is. Don&#39;t hate Us 47 drivers because of the actions of a few. Alabama is a wonderful state!!

[Mattberg]

GO ALABAMA DRIVERS! :023:

I&#39;m with you dude. It&#39;s Barry we need to stop.

[Mattberg]

So who wants to hear what Barry did?

Friggin&#39; scumbag set up the "secret meeting" at a different hotel. Didn&#39;t think I&#39;d figure it out? What are you? An idiot? The other regions claim it&#39;s on the Alabama nickel but I&#39;ll make sure of that. One penny gets assigned to SEDIV and Barry will be wearing stripes and a number across his chest.

As far as the meeting, I know where it is and I&#39;ll be there. Better have the police to keep me out but I will have a video camera with me. Alabama drivers should talk to your RE before he makes a mockery of your region. I&#39;m going to make sure it&#39;s a joke.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Dec 21 2005, 09:39 PM
So who wants to hear what Barry did?

Friggin&#39; scumbag set up the "secret meeting" at a different hotel. Didn&#39;t think I&#39;d figure it out? What are you? An idiot? The other regions claim it&#39;s on the Alabama nickel but I&#39;ll make sure of that. One penny gets assigned to SEDIV and Barry will be wearing stripes and a number across his chest.

As far as the meeting, I know where it is and I&#39;ll be there. Better have the police to keep me out but I will have a video camera with me. Alabama drivers should talk to your RE before he makes a mockery of your region. I&#39;m going to make sure it&#39;s a joke.

68930

So get a copy of the regions bylaws and help these 47 drivers remove this problem..

[specialtyautomo]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 22 2005, 05:31 AM
So get a copy of the regions bylaws and help these 47 drivers remove this problem..

68937



Joe thank you for your suggestion. My wife spent about 10 years on alscca BOD and was the regions registrar. We have a copy of the bylaws, it pretty much gives the RE absolute power. The bylaws are 20 plus years old. The have never been a problem until the current RE who has only been an SCCA member for 4 years.


Our region is primarily a solo region. 90% of our current BOD has no racing experience. 90% have memberships only 2-5 years old.Most of the solo guys dont care about our road racing but enjoy spending the proceedes. Barry lobbies the solo crowd pretty hard. He makes sure they are kept happy so he will have the votes. Barry is not well recieved by most of the racers or members with 7years or more.


Barry has told me personaly he will have FRED SMUCKER,TONI CRIEGHTON, and JIM CRIETON removed from SEDIV. That was the deciding factor for me to change region of record on my renewal date. :blink:


I am embarresed for the Alabama region as are many others! :119:

[Mattberg]

Wow. Well I think my original call on Barry is starting to look pretty good! :023: :D

Blanket party? :happy204:

All you detractors still feel the same way? Like I said. There&#39;s no black helicopters, just a lonely guy who found a way to satisfy his ego and now he wants even more money and power. Your twenty minutes are up Barry.

And to you Alabama drivers. Don&#39;t worry. We know he doesn&#39;t represent you. Please feel free to come join our region. You will be welcome anytime. :023:\\


p.s. If any of you REs had any sack you won&#39;t show up at his little party.

[Toni]

Oh Joy and Rapture! I’m going to be fired for being open and honest. Whoopee!!!!

But wait a minute, the only division job I have is as pointskeeper. That is appointed by the Executive Steward. I don’t think he currently has a problem with me. He definitely tells me when he does.

Why fire Schmucker? He hasn’t done or said anything on this board. His job as Exec is to supervise the division race program and attempt to have compliance with the GCR by all regions - equally. He has a succession plan in place and the replacement will be appointed by the Chairman of the Stewards Committee (and approved by the Directors of Area 3 and 12). The current deputies are the probable short list for the job. I don’t think any of them have a problem with me either. But if they do they will be open and honest and tell me to my face that I’ll have a replacement as pointskeeper.

Why fire J Creighton? He is the SARRC Administrator. It is his responsibility to see that the SACCR Committee functions and that the supps for SARRC races are compliant with the SARRC rules (made by the Committee). I had that job once; it is a very thankless job. He also does permanent numbers and coordinates the Jekyll meeting. No one in their right mind would want either of those two jobs. I’ve seen how much work he does on those two at this time of year. He is also appointed by the Exec Steward. He too hasn’t expressed an opinion here. He wasn’t even at the July meeting. He was working at a race that weekend.

The other things I do are as a volunteer on a race by race basis just like any other race staff worker. I work tech and as a steward. At tech I call the chief for the event and help if needed. Fire me from there? Is someone upset with the way I push cars across scales? As a steward, we turn in a list of races we are able to work and the scheduling deputy for that area makes the assignments. I don’t think there is anyone that is currently upset with the way I function as a steward – either drivers or other stewards. I show up and do the job well. I try very hard to be as fair as I can to all concerned. When drivers don’t like the outcome of a decision, they have an avenue to pursue the issue farther. Fire me for doing a good job?

I’m entitled to an opinion just like everyone else. I’m entitled to an opinion on how SCCA and this Division are managed. I’m a member. There is no mandate that says I can’t give my opinion here or document it with facts. I have never been one to do business behind closed doors or keep my opinion to my self. I try very hard to be open and honest with the things I do for SCCA. Fire me for having an opinion? Everyone in SCCA has an opinion. Some are just more vocal that others. This time I chose to be vocal on an issue that was detrimental to the race program in this division. Fire me!

We all have one goal (or should have), to put on safe, fun, fair races for our competitors. When we can’t work together to grow the race program that benefits all because we are too busy making self serving proposals and undermining others, you betcha I’ll have an opinion. And when my opinion will possibly do something make an improvement in what we do or how we do it, I’ll let you know what it is. There is always a better way to do something. Working against others and in secrecy is not the best practice in how to put on better races for our competitors.

Oh Joy and Rapture! I’m going to be fired for being open and honest. Whoopee!!!!


Toni Creighton
AKA soon to be fired and vocal

[specialtyautomo]

Toni, I would like to make myself clear. I think Fred, Jim and yourself do an outstanding job!! The three of you do far more than most for alot longer time. Don&#39;t get me wrong I support change and new ideas but it is hard to argue with how well SEDIV has been running. As a region alscca are the new kids on the block> We owe alot of respect to other regions such as Atlanta for helping mantain our racing region status for years. I hate to see someone that has been only a member for a few years think they can change the world if it doesn&#39;t meet their agenda. I can only hope other regions don&#39;t think we are all like Barry and Geoff. :unsure:

[JeffYoung]

Secret agendas or not, secret meetings or not, double speak or not, it amazes me that anyone would treat volunteers like they are being treated on this thread. Why in the world would anyone want any part of working for a Region after seeing the crap that has been spewed out here?

If you don&#39;t like the way a volunteer is running things, get out the bylaws and vote them out. But the name calling and threats -- man, that&#39;s just weird.

Jeff

[Joe Harlan]

Look a clubs bylaws have to be approved by National. (If I remember correctly.) I would suggest you get all the info together and challenge the regions charter at the national office, May not get you anywhere but it is inside the bylaws of the national organization. Matt&#39;s tactics are good for opening the wound but you need to follow some of the basic stuff to get any further.

[specialtyautomo]

Thanks Joe I will look into that!

[Mattberg]

One thing I know is SARRC is one of the best damn regional series in this country, period. Jim, Toni and Fred have made that happen. I&#39;ve had my go-arounds with all three of them but you can&#39;t deny the facts. They&#39;ve done a helluva&#39; job.

Now this guy comes tromping in trying to change things to his liking? Barry, you better be prepared at the convention because you are going to get one hell of a fight if you attempt to get anyone "kicked out" of SEDIV. Just try me Barry. Truthfully, I really think this is going to be an interesting meeting. My bet is that you get laughed out of town, especially when I start bringing out the numbers on your region and its status as a "racing region". I think I&#39;ll make a motion that you be removed from that status. You got no track, few racers and fewer workers. Why do we continue to let you masquerade as a racing region?

Here&#39;s my proposal:

A racing region will be defined as one with at least one track, 100 registered drivers and 100 registered workers. You don&#39;t meet those requirements you&#39;re not a racing region.

[Mattberg]

Since all the REs I&#39;ve talked to seem to be inclined to attend this farce of a meeting I want to make sure everyone knows when and where.

January 20, 2006 at the Jeckyll Island Club 6:30 PM in the Federal Reserve Room. I&#39;m bringing silly string, a super soaker and I&#39;m brushing up on my fake fart noises. Might have a few real ones for you too Barry. :023: Pull my finger! Air horns are welcome. This might just be fun. Hey you get a chance to hear a guy with a base of 47 racers and no racetrack tell us how to run our division and how his region should get a peice of our 2000+ racers and workers. Hilarious.

[Jaye]

Wow. I was this close to joining SCCA, but the rediculous politics and arrogance of the supposed &#39;Executives&#39; takes my breath away. I don&#39;t know Matt W. from Matthew Broderick, but the evolution in this thread from &#39;he&#39;s a rabble rouser, ignore him&#39; and &#39;he doesn&#39;t know what he&#39;s talking about&#39; to &#39;wow, he is right!&#39; &#39;there is fire in this smoke&#39; &#39;quick, lets cover our tracks&#39; is just amazing.

what a backfill and bob-and-weave evasion job by the &#39;leadership&#39; on this issue. From &#39;there is no proposal&#39; &#39;nothing happened&#39; to &#39;oh THAT proposal&#39; &#39;it means nothing&#39; &#39;you see nothing here, move along&#39; - sheesh. Just couldn&#39;t be honest to the membership, could you?


Sad. I think I&#39;ll find another organization to spend my $$$ and time. I don&#39;t know what NASA is like but it can&#39;t be this bad. What a shameful way to treat your volunteers who sacrifice to bring racing to the membership.

Matt and Toni, good luck, I don&#39;t know you personally but you have my respect for the guts it took to bring this matter to the racers. Its not so much the proposal itself, but the way the &#39;leadership&#39; responded after getting caught. It spoke volumes.


Jaye

[Mattberg]

NOOOOOOOOOO! Jaye!

SCCA is awsome! I&#39;ll guarantee that. Every once in a while we get someone doing something stupid. That&#39;s what loudmouths like me are for!

JOIN! You&#39;ll have a blast. You&#39;re invited to join us at Sebring and Homestead too! We&#39;ll be cooking steaks and drinking beers. Doing a little racing too! :023: Everyone is welcome and you&#39;ll have a blast! :happy204:

Don&#39;t let the actions of a couple of idiots sway you. We&#39;re taking care of that problem. You just worry about going racing and having fun. See you at the races. NASA sucks anyway. :P

GO FLORIDA and NORTH CAROLINA! :023: :happy204:

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Jaye@Dec 22 2005, 01:39 PM
Wow. I was this close to joining SCCA, but the rediculous politics and arrogance of the supposed &#39;Executives&#39; takes my breath away. I don&#39;t know Matt W. from Matthew Broderick, but the evolution in this thread from &#39;he&#39;s a rabble rouser, ignore him&#39; and &#39;he doesn&#39;t know what he&#39;s talking about&#39; to &#39;wow, he is right!&#39; &#39;there is fire in this smoke&#39; &#39;quick, lets cover our tracks&#39; is just amazing.

what a backfill and bob-and-weave evasion job by the &#39;leadership&#39; on this issue. From &#39;there is no proposal&#39; &#39;nothing happened&#39; to &#39;oh THAT proposal&#39; &#39;it means nothing&#39; &#39;you see nothing here, move along&#39; - sheesh. Just couldn&#39;t be honest to the membership, could you?
Sad. I think I&#39;ll find another organization to spend my $$$ and time. I don&#39;t know what NASA is like but it can&#39;t be this bad. What a shameful way to treat your volunteers who sacrifice to bring racing to the membership.

Matt and Toni, good luck, I don&#39;t know you personally but you have my respect for the guts it took to bring this matter to the racers. Its not so much the proposal itself, but the way the &#39;leadership&#39; responded after getting caught. It spoke volumes.
Jaye

69007


Jaye,

I can see why you would think that but it&#39;s a small microcosm of the Club and I suspect it is just as much a fact of life in any other organization.

I have never liked the way Matt has gone about &#39;bringing issues to light&#39;...never. I won&#39;t go into the myriad of reasons why but for every issue like this I can assure you there are 1000 that are just the opposite. As someone who is in the Northeast, I am spoiled to be a member of a true member-driven Region and Division. That is the rule, not the exception.

AB

[charrbq]

I&#39;ve made the mistake of getting involved in this discussion before and said I wouldn&#39;t do it again. Matt seems to relish in attacking, avoiding, sidestepping, and rerouting any comment that he doesn&#39;t seem to agree with for what ever reason. It&#39;s been said that "small minds have large mouths."

Several of the people named on this thread I know, most I don&#39;t. Those I know, I have a great deal of respect for a number of reasons. Others I won&#39;t base an opinion on from a lot of ranting and raving and name calling.

If Alabama Region has an R.E. that they feel is leading them down a path that they don&#39;t want to go, then it&#39;s their fault for allowing him to do so, and for defaulting their own responsibilities by electing someone into an office of leadership that didn&#39;t represent the wishes of the majority of the club members. It&#39;s up to them to make a change, not people from other regions. If his decisions affect other regions, then there are ways to control that other than name calling and threats. From what I&#39;ve read, it sounds like the proper means are being used and none of them involve this thread.

This guy may be the devil incarnate, the anti-Christ, and the twin brother of Osama Ben Laden...Idon&#39;t know. But calling him a POS and threatening to pummel him is libel and threatening. It can be punished by law and the offender either imprisoned or fined. It is he who might be wearing stripes and numbers.

Matt, you have issues that you need to have attended. You refer to this guy as a coward, but yet you use this forum to attack him. If you really want to contact him with your concerns, then there are more direct methods of approach. I&#39;ve been thankful that this forum doesn&#39;t have sound. Your printed words indicate a lot of screaming goes on in your mind. That&#39;s not healthy...might I suggest anger management.

I&#39;m sure you will attack me for my comments, it seems to be your style. Sadly, you seem to have recruited others to sometimes do your work for you. But stop feeding your own ego and stop threatening to physically damage, intimidate, or refer to people in crude and abusive fashion on this site. I&#39;m sure it was never designed for that.

[Mattberg]

What happened to Barry? He was so vocal there for a while and now he&#39;s sort of disappeared. :P Guess it&#39;s sort of tough to get caught in so many lies and such a decepetive approach to doing things. :P

Barry, is your party at the other hotel BYOB? We were thinking of bringing a keg. Ok by you? Let me know. No one will tell us who is setting up this meeting so I don&#39;t know who to call. Need us to bring anything? Chips? Dip? Crying towel?

[Mattberg]

I work alone Chris. :023:

And I have no need to attack you. You&#39;re not an official telling me lies and trying to shut down my racing. ;) Barry on the other hand... well he&#39;s just a kid who never got picked for the team and has now found a place where he can be important. Pretty sad. Wonder if he drives... B)


GO FLORIDA and NORTH CAROLINA! :happy204: :023:

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by charrbq@Dec 22 2005, 09:22 PM
But stop feeding your own ego and stop threatening to physically damage, intimidate, or refer to people in crude and abusive fashion on this site. I&#39;m sure it was never designed for that.

69018


I&#39;m just going to hit him with th super soaker and some silly string. Maybe blow the air horn or drop a couple of SBDs. No real harm. :D

And how do you categorize a regional official coming to this board and blatantly lying to everyone in order to fulfill his personal agenda. Now that&#39;s abuse. ;) Calling me abusive for bringing it to light is a little rough. :023:

[Toni]

Hey Jaye,

Don’t be put off by the current politics. It will calm down. SCCA still has great racing (hopefully we’ll still have some in SEDiv. CenDiv will still have some – they just split into two parts and both parts will be racing.). We have requirements that make our racing as safe as racing can be. We have officials who are strong enough to enforce those standards. We have course workers who take their training and jobs seriously. They will take care of you should an emergency arise. We have many experienced race chairmen who do a tremendous job in putting on safe, fun, and fair events for their regions’ racers. And the competitors you race against in SCCA are the best you will ever race against.

The competitors in SCCA don’t usually become involved in the politics. They are too busy making the car perfect. Racers shouldn’t have to worry about the politics – and usually don’t have to. The surprise proposals are usually to add another worker award to the list. This time it directly affects the racers on when and where they race. If it passes every driver will have to travel just to maintain their license much less win a championship. The proposal needed to be put out for member input. But the current leaders of the regions did not bring it to you. A racer brought it to you. I can’t imagine that I will be welcomed at those meetings again after making such public statements as I have recently. So if I don’t have information for you next time, it is because I confirmed this information. Thanks Matt for working so hard for your fellow racers. There are times when they should have information that affects them. (BTW – I will not be at Jekyll until Saturday. I have a late work day that Friday and then a 5.5 hr drive.)

We have a region in the center of the division that made a proposal that would hurt their own region as much as any of the others; unless, they have other groups that are willing to pay more track rental to them than the SCCA regions do – groups like NASA. And we have some other region officials who support the proposal. The way all of this has transpired has not been in the best interest of the racers or of SCCA.

Jaye, most of the people in SCCA are wonderful and have your best interest in mind. We only have a few who are bitter herbs. Those types come like a blast of hot air and then they disappear. They are not usually in for the long term. But because they talk a good line or because no one else will do the leadership job they get elected to positions of influence. They only hear themselves. They want to be the center of the universe. And sometimes they get items get passed without the racer knowing about it. It is embarrassing for some of us that the rest of us couldn’t be open and above board with the best interest of our race programs and racers in mind.

If you choose to race with another group rather than SCCA – race hard and be safe, enjoy. If we can’t work together to make a better program for you, it is our loss.

Toni

[Mattberg]

Since the secret meeting is not division sponsored we drivers have some decisions to consider.

Pizza or big sandwich? :D

[Matt Rowe]

Originally posted by Toni@Dec 22 2005, 06:40 PM
The competitors in SCCA don’t usually become involved in the politics. They are too busy making the car perfect.

Jaye, most of the people in SCCA are wonderful and have your best interest in mind. We only have a few who are bitter herbs. Those types come like a blast of hot air and then they disappear. They are not usually in for the long term. But because they talk a good line or because no one else will do the leadership job they get elected to positions of influence. They only hear themselves. They want to be the center of the universe. And sometimes they get items get passed without the racer knowing about it. It is embarrassing for some of us that the rest of us couldn’t be open and above board with the best interest of our race programs and racers in mind.
69035


You&#39;re statements are a perfect example of why racer&#39;s should become more involved in leadership roles. And by that I mean taking on the responsibility of the position, not just standing on the sidelines and taking shots at individuals. That comment was not directed at you but does cover a wide range of people that take or make things far too personal.
But then again there is little appeal in becoming an official or officer with this kind of treatment whenever you upset the wrong person. :(

[charrbq]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Dec 22 2005, 10:43 PM
I&#39;m just going to hit him with th super soaker and some silly string. Maybe blow the air horn or drop a couple of SBDs. No real harm. :D

And how do you categorize a regional official coming to this board and blatantly lying to everyone in order to fulfill his personal agenda. Now that&#39;s abuse. ;) Calling me abusive for bringing it to light is a little rough. :023:

69028

I never said you were abusive, those are your words. Don&#39;t put them in my mouth or my comments. I said you used abusive manners. Calling people names, particularly vulgar and crude names, is abusive. Threatening them with descriptions of your stature and intent is harassment. Hitting someone with a super soaker or silly string or a purse is assault and battery. That combined with the slander and libel will get you time in jail and/or a fine. You will probably be away from a computer for a while during the meeting that you seem bent on disrupting. You feel you&#39;ve been wronged, then tell the person and your representatives. Let them take care of it. I&#39;m sure they&#39;re quite capable.
Continued chest beating, threats, and crude name calling wins you no points. You may not care, but if you&#39;re going to get things done, using McCarthy style techniques isn&#39;t the way to do it.

[Toni]

Matt R.

I started to send this note to you privately but posting here might help another racer become more active in their region too. We&#39;ve aired the dirty laundry here and in very much a public way. Even with the name calling and backstabbing perhaps something has been accomplished in addition to giving everyone current information.

Perhaps you and other racers will become more active in your own region and division and help maintain and grow our racing programs for future racers.

I wanted to let you know that I am one of the racers that chose to take a leadership role. I still think that the racers are the most important asset that SCCA has. I raced for nearly 30 years, was a competitor in the Runoffs 18 times. My household was a two or three racecar family. I raced HP back when Sprites and Midgets were as plentiful as Miatas and they only took 4 from each division to the Runoffs (and there were only 7 divisions). My last couple of Runoffs were at Mid Ohio. I was a race worker, or on the region board, or newsletter editor, or did driver licensing, or something the entire time I was racing. (And yeah, I also took time to be a mom and do girl scouts and the other PTA mom things). The other racer in my house is still a racer in addition to what he currently does for SARRC and SCCA. He has been a Runoffs competitor in FP, GP, & HP; sometimes with two cars – in addition to mine. He’s been RE, on the region board, a race chairman, in charge of parking for the Runoffs while they were in Atlanta, all while being a very active racer and Runoffs competitor. He also works for a pro race series.

There are many jobs that a racer can do to be a leader in SCCA and still have time to race. There are many jobs that a racer can do even if not living close to the regions&#39; center of activity. If you race nationals, come work a regional race. If you race regionals, come work a national race or a drivers school. Be an instructor in your region&#39;s drivers school. Help organize the school. Recruit other racers to be instructors. Put the beer and Cokes on ice for the party. Write articles for your region’s newsletter. Be the region’s webmaster. If nothing else, pay attention to what your region and division does and vote in the elections. Vote for people you can trust so that you can race and don’t have to worry about the politics. Be active. Participate.

Now I’ll go back to contemplating being fired into retirement. That&#39;s such a peaceful thought.

Toni Creighton

[Krysd]

Toni,
Thanks for speaking up for drivers who are also volunteers, I wish we had more involved.

BTW, when you get fired can you draw unemployment??

Krys Dean :happy204:

[Toni]

Oh sure, Krys!!

Unemployment is 3 times the SCCA rate. Plus there is medicaid, food stamps, welfare, disability, discounted transit cards, and free health care. Maybe I&#39;ll take the SCCA early retirement plan. It pays 4 times the going SCCA rate. Don&#39;t we have a Stewards Union? Won&#39;t the Union pick up the slack while we take a break to go shopping for the holidays? When I retire (get retired), I&#39;ll move to the SCCA retirement commune where I will relax and be spoon fed and have cabana boys to polish the cars.

Ahhhh, the life of leisure with SCCA unemployment and retirement benefits.

Tc

[Matt Rowe]

Toni,

Just to clarify, I already volunteer in a variety of functions within my Division. I&#39;ve even been known to be one of those power crazed officials both at a track and in planning meetings. Truth be told my race car goes to only about a quarter of the events I go to and I know there are people who invest even more of their time than I do. But reading these types of discussions I can&#39;t see a reason why any of us volunteers want to deal with the grief. :bash_1_:

I&#39;ll just have to remember to spend time over the holidays with friends/racers/volunteers that remind me of the good things about the club. :D

Happy Holidays and enjoy your retirement package!

[Toni]

Matt R

We volunteer because we care. Keep up the good work! Recruit another driver to volunteer.

Bryan Webb (a long term member and SCCA founding father) told me once that SCCA is not about the racing or the cars, it is about the people. It took me a few years to understand. But I have learned. It truly is about the people. And our people are some of the best people. We volunteer because we care about the people and the enjoyment we have with them. And the racing is great!

We have a few who are snits, as does everything else – this thread has proven that. But SCCA people can be more than friends. They are as much, and in some cases, more family than our biological families. All families sometimes have disagreements. I hope we all learned something from this disagreement.

Enjoy your holiday season.

I’m going to go pack for retirement. I may have to stop at the Sebring and Homestead Nationals on the way.

Matt W – what is the name of the retirement home where the residents have been added to your family membership plan? Do they have cabana boys that have race cars?


Tc

[Mattberg]

Matt W – what is the name of the retirement home where the residents have been added to your family membership plan? Do they have cabana boys that have race cars?

Sunshine Village. I have twenty family memberships and 120 votes. :D

TO ALL DRIVERS:

Please make the secret meeting. I may have difficulty and we need to have SOMEONE there. My flight from San Francisco doesn&#39;t get into Jacksonville until 5PM on Friday. HELP! Can anyone be there for sure?

[doesn'treallymatter]

from the forum registration page:


"You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person&#39;s privacy, or otherwise violative of any law."


Sheesh

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by doesn&#39;treallymatter@Dec 31 2005, 04:21 PM
from the forum registration page:
"You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person&#39;s privacy, or otherwise violative of any law."
Sheesh

69678


Don&#39;t you love the people who chime in once under an anonymous name? No rules or guidelines have been violated pal. :023:

Unfortunately, Barry Hair and a number of other officials have violated those terms by posting knowingly false information.

Still looking to find out who can make the early Friday meeting.

[Mattberg]

Regardless of all that&#39;s going on, HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!

Racing starts in FIVE DAYS!!!! :happy204:


GO FLORIDA and NORTH CAROLINA! :023: :happy204:

[pistonwheels]

I have kept silent through all this long tirade. But I was rather annoyed by Matt&#39;s accusations and bad-mouthing of Barry Hair, so it is time for me to correct some of Matt&#39;s statements.

First though, I want to say that in all the times I have met Barry Hair, he has never done anything than try to put forward the best interests of Alabama region. He has never voted on any motion without getting feedback from his members. Barry also has constructively improved the process whereby everything that goes on in S E Div is actually made more public, by having items for the Annual Meeting agenda be provided in advance of Jekyll and getting minutes published sooner. Take note of that for later. I honestly believe that Alabama members are fortunate to have Barry H. as their R.E. and his silence in the face of Matt&#39;s tirade speeks volumes for his integrity.

To save you reading to the bottom of this to find out who it is from, I am the R.E for Central Carolinas Region.

At the 2005 mid-year meeting in Atlanta, all the R.E.&#39;s and other officials in attendance were talking about the problems that regions have, such as getting and keeping workers, not over-stressing officials and workers with too many events, the increasing costs of putting on races, the challenge of NASA and how difficult it is for a non-racing region to get a good date on the racing calendar. Also that the R.E.&#39;s rarely have the time at our two meetings of the year (Atlanta and Jekyll) to really discuss things and to talk about the future of racing

I made the comment that we should sit down with a bottle of good malt whisky and chat about things. All the R.E.&#39;s thought that was a good idea, though there was some request for wine or vodka as an alternative. Based on that, I said I would arrange such a get-together for the Friday before Jekyll. We decided that just the R.E.&#39;s would get together, because we were not going to make any specific action items. The intent was/is that we discuss a variety of issue in a relaxed manner. Hopefully we will come up with some great suggestions and ideas. If we do, those will become proposals for a following S.E. Division meeting and they WILL BE publicly aired beforehand and everyone can comment on them.

It was about at this point that Toni Creighton stood up (Toni was sitting behind me) and got on her cellphone to Jim Creighton and said (not quite verbatim) "Guess what. The R.E.&#39;s have just decided to have a secret meeting to decide on the future of SARRC". I am not sure why Toni took this viewpoint, because none of the R.E.&#39;s had it.

The so-called proposal that Matt and Toni have referred to was in fact just a discussion document of one possible idea. A very important fact is that it is NOT on the agenda for R.E.&#39;s to vote on at Jekyll. If it did "appear" on the agenda, and thanks to Barry, that fact would now be made public well before the meeting, I for one R.E. would state that the vote needs to be delayed to allow for public discussion.

If you all think it is a bad idea for your elected R.E&#39;s to chat about all the various issues, challenges and opportunities facing S.E. Division then you should elect alternatives.

If you think that a constructive blue-sky brainstorming meeting can occur amongst 150 people on Saturday at Jekyll, then go for it.


Matt said "So who wants to hear what Barry did? Friggin scumbag set up the "secret meeting" at a different hotel".

This is not true.

I set up the meeting. I set it up at a different hotel because I was having problems (many places in Jekyll are closed in Jan) reserving a room where we could chat informally and relaxed. The intent was to avoid unnecessary interruptions and actually try to enjoy the discussions.

Matt also said "So here&#39;s what the scumbags did...
They didn&#39;t want any of us drivers to know what they were doing so they moved their meeting to a different hotel across town. You didn&#39;t think I&#39;d figure it out Barry? You are one stupid hick. I made three phone calls and found you out"

Well Matt, careful who you are calling stupid (and scumbags).

Matt also made the statement about it being on the "Alabama nickel". That is also wrong (Noticing a pattern here).

It is on my "nickel". Actually my American Express card. It is NOT on CCR&#39;s &#39;nickel&#39; either. I have personally layed out for this. At times recently I have been wondering why!

As it is my personal social evening for something I suggested, I&#39;ll state that I have NO problem calling the police if someone tries to barge in on my gathering.
I certainly have the liberty and right to invite who I want. There will be some non-R.E people in attendance. Let me also clearly state that NO VOTES will be taken at this meeting. It&#39;s not an offical S.E. Division meeting so we can&#39;t and we never intended to.

I&#39;m not staying at the convention hotel either. I have stayed there in the past. I got tired of the cold rooms, the lights going out, the worn out carpeting and bedding. Why it matters where any of us stay I have no idea. Just something else Matt can gripe at I guess.

Here&#39;s some other items to consider.
The elected R.E.&#39;s of all regions are the Board of Directors of the S.E. Division and have the responsibility to manage the affairs of the Region. Taking the time to fully discuss current matters seems a very appropriate action.

I don&#39;t think any of the R.E.&#39;s are so stupid to think that they can "mandate" where racers will have to drive to race. We&#39;re all VERY aware of market forces.

I am very confident that all R.E.&#39;s would make sure that any proposal, suggestion, plan or change to SARRC is fully discussed with members, made public, reviewed and would not be voted on before Atlanta 2006 mid-year meeting at the Earliest.

The reason that R.E.&#39;s have not been continually responsing to this thread is because the whole thing is based on serious misrepresentation. It should not be necessary for us to spend time refuting things which are inaccurate at their base.

That said, I am happy that here has been so much interest and discussion about racing and the SARRC series in this thread. I just wish it hadn&#39;t been undertaken in the manner it was.

Matt may state that he has all this &#39;evidence&#39; and I&#39;m sure he has a copy of the &#39;proposal&#39; (actually a discssion document), but there&#39;s no truth to the basic premise that at Jekyll the R.E.&#39;s will vote on a limitation to SARRC races by regions.

I don&#39;t fully understand Toni&#39;s issues with the R.E.&#39;s getting together alone to discuss racing matters. I am sure I&#39;ll hear more on that at Jekyll. Certainly Toni&#39;s posts about people keeping involed in their regions affairs are very valid. I wish that CCR had more involvement from all its racers.

MATT. You owe Barry Hair a public apology. You have made rude and disrepectful comments about him that were completely untrue.

Any further issues you have with my social evening on Friday, you can take up with me. And no, you&#39;re not invited.

Sincerely,
Martin Bartlett.
Regional Executive
Central Carolinas Region.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Thank you Martin. It seems as if the people who asked Matt to calm down, get the facts, and present them on a better format - were correct as usual.

THIS is why Matt has a bad reputation.

AB

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Jan 6 2006, 08:29 AM
Thank you Martin. It seems as if the people who asked Matt to calm down, get the facts, and present them on a better format - were correct as usual.

THIS is why Matt has a bad reputation.

AB

70243


So Martin, Explain why it took you so long to get in front of this? If this was all your grand deal then you should have come out right away. What it looks like now is an effort to cover something up after it was exposed.

[imported_Webmaster]

4.5. CONDUCT
Entrants, drivers, and participants at an event shall conduct themselves
according to the highest standards of behavior and sportsmanship,
particularly in relationship with other competitors and officials, and in a
manner that shall not be prejudicial to the reputation of the SCCA or to
the sport of automobile racing.

[charrbq]

Originally posted by Webmaster@Jan 6 2006, 05:04 PM
4.5. CONDUCT
Entrants, drivers, and participants at an event shall conduct themselves
according to the highest standards of behavior and sportsmanship,
particularly in relationship with other competitors and officials, and in a
manner that shall not be prejudicial to the reputation of the SCCA or to
the sport of automobile racing.

70254

Oh, how I&#39;ve waited for that quote from the person that quoted it.

[pistonwheels]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Jan 6 2006, 11:03 AM
So Martin, Explain why it took you so long to get in front of this? If this was all your grand deal then you should have come out right away. What it looks like now is an effort to cover something up after it was exposed.

70249


Joe,

Today is only the third time I have been to this website forum. I am not an IT race driver. Last time I was here this thread was a lot shorter and seemed to concentrate on the supposed-proposal. As that document was never presented as anything other than a discussion document, the many accusations about some covert op. plan to limit SARRC&#39;s were really so much typed flatulence.

I never considered setting up a meeting with my fellow R.E&#39;s as a "grand deal". Certainly, it was not something I considered ever necessary to publish in an IT forum.

My arranging the meeting has never been covered up. It was recorded in the minutes of the mid-year meeting.

I would not have bothered to reply at all if it was not for the ignorant and unfair accusations made about Barry Hair. Those were unjust and it was not right that Barry should receive such treatment. I could not, in good conscience, allow them to pass without comment.

Overall, I am amazed that this topic has been continued and grown to such proportions. Considering that at its base is just an intent by R.E.&#39;s to discuss issues the division faces, the comments and critiques in this thread are completely out of proportion.

Oh, and I have been away for the last 16 days in England. Got back yesterday early am. I had received an email from Kaye Fairer mentioning this continued thread and checked in again, otherwise I still wouldn&#39;t have seen this before Jekyll.

Regards,
Martin.
CCR R.E.

[seckerich]

As an old member of CCR I can tell you that Martin is a man of his word. Thanks for the explanation.

[JeffYoung]

Joe -- chill.

Martin -- THANK YOU. I appreciate you coming on here and giving us a detailed explanation. A shame you had to really. Amazing to me that some(one) got so worked up about an informal meeting by VOLUNTEERS to discuss how to make the organization work better.

I hope the REs understand that most drivers are incredibly appreciative of their efforts, don&#39;t think that you guys are part of the black helicopter squad, and understand that there are a lot of stresses on the schedule that will one day (soon) have to resolved.

Jeff

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by JeffYoung@Jan 6 2006, 02:31 PM
Joe -- chill.

Martin -- THANK YOU. I appreciate you coming on here and giving us a detailed explanation. A shame you had to really. Amazing to me that some(one) got so worked up about an informal meeting by VOLUNTEERS to discuss how to make the organization work better.

I hope the REs understand that most drivers are incredibly appreciative of their efforts, don&#39;t think that you guys are part of the black helicopter squad, and understand that there are a lot of stresses on the schedule that will one day (soon) have to resolved.

Jeff

70300

Hey jeff who the F are you to tell me to chill? I asked an honest question. You guys seam to miss the fact that there are others here other than Matt supporting some of these facts. I find it funny that after all this time somebody comes and takes a bow for doing the whole thing after the fact.

[JohnRW]

Just because the web sites you might post on are the center of YOUR universe doesn&#39;t make them the center of ANYONE ELSE&#39;s universe.

The internet would benefit greatly from a pill to help the &#39;hopelessly self-absorbed&#39;.

[imported_Webmaster]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Jan 6 2006, 05:29 PM
Hey jeff who the F are you to tell me to chill?
70310

How disappointing. :angry: We couldn&#39;t even make it 1 page?
Joe please go back one page and read my last post.
http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...indpost&p=70254 (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6669&view=findpost&p=70254)

As for the others. Some of you are getting perilously close to being permenantly banned from this site. I am not going to watch this forum deteriorate into a childish flame-throwing session by people who are too immature to discuss thier concerns like intelligent adults.

This discussion is now locked.

Both sides have been heard. If there is something that must be said. Email me or IM me here and I will add to the discussion. But further childishness on this topic will be deleted. And attempts to sling mud in another thread that is related to this embarassing thread (which by the way reflects very poorly on our sport) will be dealt with as mentioned above.
:bash_1_: