What should I look for in a 240sx..

[Jay_Taylor]

Yes I know I would be money ahead to just buy a pre-built car,but I just enjoy the build.
So what should I look for?
Also is the chassie stiffer in a coupe or a lift back. and what about the aero diffrence?
Any sugestions or tips would be most welcome.
Thanks in Advance

[Tristan Smith]

Coupe is lighter than the fastback. Not sure that there is any aero advantage, but you could most likely look that up on the internet. The best thing is to find a non sunroof, "non electric anything"model coupe. The build on these cars can be expensive if you take everything to the limit. But they are great handling, fun cars. Enjoy the ride.

[Jay_Taylor]

Thanks for the advice..
Im looking to pick one up later this year or early next year and start the build.
After I sell my other toy..an 86 mustang GT. the wife says Im only allowed to have one toy at a time

[slickS14]

Jay, before you build, check my 1995 ITS 240SX out that is for sale. I will have it at the ARRC on display and if it's not sold I'll be running the Enduro on Sunday. Or you can call me at 404-314-5042 for details.



Originally posted by Jay_Taylor@Oct 26 2005, 04:59 PM
Thanks for the advice..
Im looking to pick one up later this year or early next year and start the build.
After I sell my other toy..an 86 mustang GT. the wife says Im only allowed to have one toy at a time

63652

[Jay_Taylor]

Originally posted by slickS14@Oct 26 2005, 10:38 AM
Jay, before you build, check my 1995 ITS 240SX out that is for sale. I will have it at the ARRC on display and if it's not sold I'll be running the Enduro on Sunday. Or you can call me at 404-314-5042 for details.

63658

thanks for the info, but Im looking to build.
Mostly because I want to do it my way and also build it CA. smog legal, so I can drive it to local shows/gatherings and maybe a drift even here and there.

[DavidM]

What Tristan said. And Chris' car is nice if you reconsider buying an already built car.

I think you'd be hard pressed to build a CA smog legal car with good torque/power. You need to open up the exhaust to get good numbers. You can still build a nice car, but you'll be down on power to the other guys in your class.

Speaking of class, you'll need to decide if you want to be in ITA or ITS. That'll determine the year car you need. I would look for a good roller chassis that doesn't have any body or suspension damage (or at least minimal). You're going to be stripping out or replacing just about everything anyways.

David

[x-ring]

Originally posted by Jay_Taylor@Oct 26 2005, 10:59 AM
...the wife says Im only allowed to have one toy at a time

63652


Spoilsport. :lol:

[Jay_Taylor]

Originally posted by x-ring@Oct 26 2005, 11:56 AM
Spoilsport. :lol:

63675

but its worth it;)
and she dosnt cout my daily driver as a toy, which it is..I just dont tell her that:)

As far as the exahust..thats easy to change..same with the header.
Im searching cragslist and zilvia for good (cheep) cars to start this project with..
I have a big trip coming up at the end of this week..after that..game on for the slow build.

[erlrich]

Originally posted by DavidM@Oct 26 2005, 02:21 PM
Speaking of class, you'll need to decide if you want to be in ITA or ITS. That'll determine the year car you need.


Just to expand a little on David's comment, if you want to build an ITA version you'll need to look for an '89 - '90 car, if you want to run in ITS you'll need to look for a '91 - '98 car. A well prepared ITA version can and often does run up front, while to my knowledge there aren't any ITS cars that can stay with the top RX7s, Zs, or Bimmers.

Earl

[stevel]

Originally posted by Jay_Taylor@Oct 26 2005, 05:50 PM
thanks for the info, but Im looking to build.
Mostly because I want to do it my way and also build it CA. smog legal, so I can drive it to local shows/gatherings and maybe a drift even here and there.

63662


there's no way you'll be competitive on the track if you keep it CA smog legal. You're going to be way down on power to the rest of the field. The honda's and acura's are going to murder you. I say make it a dedicated race car and just tow it. Besides, something unexpected might happen and you can't drive it home. Plenty of times something has happened mechanically and we've ended up pushing the car onto the trailer at the end of the day. These cars can be very tempermental if you don't take the right precautions. There's no way i'd have the confidence to be able to drive the car home after a race weekend. So many things can go wrong.

steve

[slickS14]

SteveEl, What problems are you having with your car being "tempermental"? Just curious, I never have a problem with my car unless its an error on my part in preparation. In my opinion, if there is a solid car to build for ITA or ITS, the 240sx is the one. I've had 3 DNF's in 3 years and they were broken wheel stud, broken water pump belt and tranny drain plug fell out because I forgot to torque it. I do agree that driving your racecar to the track is a poor choice though and you will not be competitive in smog legal trim. One of the major keys to these cars making power is the exhaust and I know mine is not smog legal. I have put 7 different exhausts in different configurations on my car and countless chasis dyno sessions to make mine competitive. By the way, these cars are competitive in ITS, I finished 4th in SAARC points out of 120 or so entries this year and rarely finished off the podium against some very fast and well prepared BMW's, RX7's and others. Still looking for that elusive win but it is near on the horizon! Jay, good luck on your decision but I'd say your in the right direction just by considering a 240sx to race. Any questions I can answer I'll be happy to try.

[Joe Harlan]

Jay, I would build a 89-90 coupe for ITA. I believe you have the best shot at eventually being competitive in an A car rather than an S car. the 3 valve motor is plenty reliable and there are plenty of chassis out there. If you can't find a car let me know cuase I can find good running street cars for about 2500 bucks for a cherry. I think you get you will not be knocking down track recird driving a daialy driver but you could get to mid forard pack if well prepped and driven.

[stevel]

Originally posted by slickS14@Nov 3 2005, 01:28 PM
Stevel, What problems are you having with your car being "tempermental"? Just curious, I never have a problem with my car unless its an error on my part in preparation.


Ok, here's a list of stuff we've run into. It's good tips for you fellow 240SX guys. Note, we run in ITA so we have the SOHC 12V motor so we may have different experiences. Granted, I will blame a bigger percentage on lack of prep or precaution, but we've still run into some issues I wouldn't expect. Here we go.

Overheating, basically if you do it once the motor is toast. We had to put the biggest damn aluminum radiator in these cars to keep the temps down on track. The one we used is rated for enough cooling capacity for 400hp and the sad thing is the radiator really isn't overkill. I don't expect a motor to be OK after a good overheating, but this goes beyond replacing a head gasket and making sure the head and deck is straight. The pistons just can't take it and crystallize, so it's really done at that point.

Header (exhaust manifold), make sure they're wrapped or coated. Because you WILL run into problems, big ones. We unknowingly cooked several distributors as a result (on the SOHC motors the dizzy is too close to the header). The crank angle sensor is internal to the dizzy on these cars and when they heat up bad things happen. It causes the timing, especially at high load high rpm operation, to deviate from a safe range. Basically, the CAS gets hot and reports an incorrect angle and the ECU changes timing accordingly. Unfortunately it usually reports a reading such that the ECU waaaay advances the timing and you get severe detonation followed by rod knock and eventually a rod exiting the side of the block. Even a handful of laps running like this can cause enough damage that the rod will eventually let go. Also, we've had problems with ignition coils going as a result of heat also, though it's usually more apparent as the car usually won't start. When we have dizzy problems you usually won't notice it at idle as the motor isn't as hot as it would be on track but when up to full temp and running full bore out there is when the timing advances, and at WOT at full speed on the track usually you can't hear the pinging until it's too late. Unfortunately the dizzy doesn't just die, but continues to seem fine but when it gets hot it just causes the timing to way advance. Then it cools down and seems to run fine and the motor runs great, so it took a while to figure this out as evidenced by several blown motors.

Power steering overheats really easily on these cars and bubble the fluid out the reservoir. DON'T overfill. Not a big deal and hasn't caused a DNF but your competitors usually don't like it when you are spilling fluids. I think I might try to put a power steering cooler on if I can make a cheap setup. I would recommend it to everyone. Also, make sure you that copper/brass (not sure exactly) crush washer where the power steering line goes to the pump. Have extras on hand. We've lost these at the worst moments and tried to get by just cranking the bolt down to no avail. It will leak and leak a lot. So, keep a spare few extra. Again, I believe that is a dealer part also.

These cars are very sensitive to vacuum leaks and there are a lot of places this can happen. We remove so much emmission equipment and bypass the throttle body water inlet that it has bit us a couple times. If the intake manifold/upper throttle body isn't totally sealed (and it can be hard to tell otherwise as it may not even leak any water or run badly) it will cause a lean condition since the FPR is a rising rate based on vacuum, and if there is an incorrect vacuum reading at the fpr due to a leak you will run dangerously lean on the top end. I've had this happen a few times and searched everywhere for leaks on the intake manifold/upper throttle body and you can't visibly see it or detect (at least I couldn't) even with spraying it and checking for bubbles but we would have a severe lean condition and that was the only thing left. And between the intake manifold to head and the upper intake manifold/throttle to lower intake manifold sections there is a large area where you can have air leaks. So, be meticulous with getting those areas perfectly clean before putting the gasket on and sealed properly.

Electrical issues. Go thru the entire engine harness and make sure all the connectors and wires are good. I know this seems like a no brainer again and should be done on every race car but these particular engine harnesses don't seem to hold up too well (at least relative to other race cars i've worked on/seen) and the connector and clip system they have isn't the greatest. We've had several connectors pop off and cause problems and with how the engine hides stuff it sometimes isn't easy to get too. We've had the alternator plug back out every so slightly and cause an intermittent shut down. We've had injector plugs come loose and we'll be running on 1 less cylinder. We now just zip tie the connectors to the injector instead of using those little nissan clips and use zip ties on other connectors when we can.

Gaskets. Again maybe a no brainer but make sure you replace them all, especially the injector o-rings, on both ends of the injector. We are usually good at replacing whatever is needed but we'll try to reuse what we can. They usually look good at inspection but will fail/leak at the worst time and be spraying gas all over your hot engine. And these usually aren't things you can pick up a NAPA or autozone. Usually a dealer part. So, make sure to replace them no matter what.

Fuel problems. We've had FPR's fail as well as fuel pumps and injectors that weren't up to par. Unfortunately they usually all don't cause problems at the same time, but one after another so you fix one fuel problem and the next creeps up. Again, maybe a lot of people will just replace them no matter what but we were working on a budget and tried to reuse as much as we could. But, we won't do that again. Without question replace the fuel pump with a new one as well as the bag filter on the end of the pump, replace the FPR with a new one and get the injectors cleaned and blueprinted. A fuel pressure gauge is a great idea also to know you're where you should be.

Other. Unfortunately these cars will actually run fairly well and start with a multitude of sensors disconnected. Make sure you have the air temp sensor connected. I don't know if it will cause a problem but we've forgotten that one plenty of times and while I don't think it has caused any problems I don't like to leave it to chance anymore. A big one that I couldn't believe is make sure the TPS is connected. Again, I know it sounds stupid but when you have 3 cars and you're blowing motors because of other unknowns you overlook stuff. The car will actually start and run well at idle and part throttle without the TPS connected at all but at WOT obviously it is probably dangerous. IMO, a car shouldn't even start with the TPS disconnected.

Exhaust. We try to get these cars as low as we can but run into problems with lowering more from exhaust than we do from lack of suspension travel or the car bottoming out. From the header we run to trying to get the exhaust tucked way up we just can't get the car as low as we like. We have run this low and it's caused nice new header to get dented, collectors to break at the weld, and some DNF's just from the exhaust hitting and falling off. And the funny thing is most of the damage we do isn't on the track, it's going on/off the trailer or in the garage where it will hit and do the damage but won't actually fall off until the middle of the race or on pre-grid. This is odd because most cars will usually run out of suspension travel before you can get that low, but the problem here is the header/exhaust.

Pulleys and belts. Make sure you check the bolts that hold the tension on the belts. They can work themselves loose pretty quickly. We've had the tension come off on the belt that runs the water pump. Not good! We now check/tighten them everytime they go out on track.

Hmm, what else? I'm sure there's more. Again, maybe to some of you veterans all this stuff sounds normal but when we started with these cars a lot of this stuff we just didn't know and found out the hard way thru missed races, blown motors, or DNF's. We just didn't expect this many problems. I, myself, am historically much more familar with hondas and most of the problems above I would never run into on a honda. They are much more ready-to-go out of the box so to speak.

IMO, these cars are finicky (sp?) and need a lot of attention. But when it all comes together it's such a huge reward as they have a lot of power and torque and the handling is a dream and so simple with these cars. They are very very fun to drive and very neutral that you can really toss them around without them biting you too badly. That's why I really like driving them. The combo of the nice power and torque curve of the motor, the rwd and the excellent handling I really like these cars for ITA. But it's been a long process and the race team we have I wasn't even there at the beginning when they started with these cars so some of the issues I wasn't even there to run into, they were solved so to speak by the time I started dealing with 240's.

Some more good notes. Here's things I would replace without question if I were building a new car. Keep in mind this isn't a complete list by any means and is mostly geared towards the motor. IMO these things go beyond regular maintenance items like water pump, clutches, brakes, plugs etc.

- Radiator, get the biggest one you can stuff in there.
- injectors and all the o-rings on both the fuel rail side and manifold side
- fuel pump
- fpr
- ignition coil
- distributor
- alternator
- wiring harness (not new but be very thorough inspecting and repairing it. They don't seem to hold up well)


hmm, that seems too short a list. Again, some of these things we should have realized because they are 15+ year old cars now, but the shitty thing is usually the parts didn't completely fail but rather malfunction intermittenly and it made it difficult to diagnose what the actual problem was. We have finally gotten to the point where we have reliability and the kinks worked out and are now at a point where we are very competitive (or at least the car is) so we now have a great knowledge base. Currently we are a 2 car team, expanding to 3 over the winter and most likely a 4th also. So, we've had a lot of experience with these cars over the last several seasons.

Look for BB Racing to be supplying parts and services specifically for Nissans and 240s' in particular for the IT community. We feel there is not enough of this. Look for things like custom chipped ecu's, IT ready suspesions, radiators, headers and exhaust tested on track and the dyno (no guesswork, we've found the best combos and are improving all the time), intakes (now that the MAF rule has changed this is opened up), pulley's, pistons, head components, etc. We are looking to make a ton of IT ready to go parts for you guys. We're getting ready for a big expansion to our team and new products. Keep an eye out for it. Please refer all questions regarding our business to IM or email. To the mods, if that is out of line as far as advertising, I apologize. Let me know if it should be edited. You can hold me to it, but when we do make these products available (over the winter sometime) we will buy ad space on here.

Thanks for reading all of that guys. I know it was long but I think extremely informative.

email bbracingusa [at] gmail dot com

steve

[turboICE]

Good list.

TPS happens a lot because to properly set timing TPS needs to be disconnected.

One that hit me twice this year is the distributor/oil pump shaft drive gear going. Fortunately this timing problem is the opposite of the crank sensor - when it goes your timing retards further and further until it doesn't run. I'd say keep fresh ones around but since the replacement includes pulling the timing chain cover and oil pan not sure how many would do this at the track.

Motors will go very fast once overheated - two broken altenator belts, two motors running on three or less cylinders within 6 track sessions. A water pressure gauge is as important as a temp since by the time you notice the temp, too late. And also gauge monitoring or very bright warning lights that will be noticed while in a pack.

[stevel]

Originally posted by turboICE@Nov 3 2005, 07:54 PM
Good list.

TPS happens a lot because to properly set timing TPS needs to be disconnected.

One that hit me twice this year is the distributor/oil pump shaft drive gear going. Fortunately this timing problem is the opposite of the crank sensor - when it goes your timing retards further and further until it doesn't run. I'd say keep fresh ones around but since the replacement includes pulling the timing chain cover and oil pan not sure how many would do this at the track.



wow, that's one we actually haven't had happen. Hmmm, any culprits to it? We've had good luck there. Maybe that'll be a replacement item I'll buy new from the dealer. Maybe I'll look into getting that cryo treated.


A water pressure gauge is as important as a temp since by the time you notice the temp, too late.


that's not a bad idea. I think I'm going to look into that one!


And also gauge monitoring or very bright warning lights that will be noticed while in a pack.

got one of those. too bad autometer doesn't make it anymore but i've got a box made for there short sweep electric gauges where you set the high/low point and it can trigger a buzzer or light, and the box can handle up to 3 gauges and warning lights. You actually turn a dial on the box and it moves the needle on the gauge to where you wanna set it. It was only like $60 too. I still have it in the damn box and need to hook it up.



steve

[turboICE]

Regarding the dizzy/oil pump shaft gear - based on the way my two broke it looks like the OEM metal might be too brittle (not a metalurgist but have stayed at a Holiday Inn before) - Nismo makes a bronze replacement. I couldn't find where I could change the material from OEM in the rules so I wrote in for a spec line part number permission. The response in the November Fastrack was that competition division replacement parts are not allowed. So now I have an expensive paper weight. Ticks me off more than a little bit since all specs are identical except the material and I guess some infantismal weight difference. Nismo's explanation is that the OEM gear does not stand up to sustained high rpms and this part is the one they used for competition instead of OEM - it would turn the dizzy and oil pump in a circle the same way OEM does but the inability of the rules board to understand that budget racing means parts that don't break and don't provide a competitive advantage should be desirable, not restricted from use. I see no reason to find it desirable for a car to suddenly lose power and eventually stall in the middle of race conditions when a solution exists for $100.

I am going to replace this part with OEM at every refresh. Both of the ones that went were not replaced in their last refesh.

Only place I know that makes a specific water pressure gauge is Autometer 0-30 psi. works really well IMO and I try to eye it more than the temp. Going to put a N/C pressure switch in line to drive a warning light for low pressure next year - something like 5psi.

That only helps for if there is a leak and you are losing coolant - in which situation you may not know until it is too late.

Except when I have lost the alternator belt - normal overheating has not been a problem with the large aluminum radiator I have and the dump truck sized oil cooler. BTW in both overheating situations - my oil temps never went over 250* but in the end it didn't matter a few sessions later and torque has gone away and at least one cylinder has last compression.

But I do need warning lights - there is no reason I should have overheated the two belt induced overheats I did.

[DavidM]

Longacre has a water pressure warning light that goes off at 5 PSI. You may need a 1/8NPT to metric adapter depending on where you put it. I've been adding the Cendyne digital gauges sold at Summit for water temp, oil pressure, etc. I personally like seeing numbers. The gauges have a high/low set point so that they start flashing if the set point is reached. I also got the memory ones so that I can see high/low number reached.

I've only done 4 weekends, but my biggest issues have been electrical. The wiring harness is shot and will be replaced in the offseason. I haven't had any engine electrical issues, but now know the brake light circuit inside and out. Zipties definitely are needed to keep connectors on. Also watch out for banging the alternator power lead onto the alternator when your futzing with the oil filter. You'll fry the main fusible link (75A) and have a good ole time trying to figure out why.

The header wrap I wonder if you need if you're only doing sprint races. Bob ran this car pretty hard and the header isn't wrapped. I believe he only did sprints though and that's all I've done. It defintely gets hot in there, but I haven't seen any issues.

David

[turboICE]

Bob coats his headers though doesn't he?

[7racing]

Originally posted by stevel@Nov 3 2005, 08:46 PM
wow, that's one we actually haven't had happen. Hmmm, any culprits to it? We've had good luck there. Maybe that'll be a replacement item I'll buy new from the dealer. Maybe I'll look into getting that cryo treated.

64551


Steve,

That's the problem I had with my motor last year. The crank gear was not replaced when the motor was freshened and the new oil pump drive wore right through it. I still have it and will show it to you sometime so you know what to look for.

Jeremy

[turboICE]

That is one of the quickest ways to go through that gear on the crank shaft is to replace the drive shaft and not the crank gear. They should be new as a pair and removed/replaced as a pair for sure.

The crank gear is definitely the weak link and the drive shaft wears it down.

[Jay_Taylor]

thanks for all the great info..
Im still looking with the goal in mind of keeping it streel leagal(excpt when racing)
I might drive it to the track once in a blue moon..but mostly i want to have the plates on there to take it to cars shows/cruze ins and the like..to expose others to road racing.