first gen rx7 ITS cars [Archive] - Improved Touring Racing Forums

RP Performance

10-13-2005, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by dickita15@Oct 13 2005, 10:53 AM
plus as the 85 13b car is on it's own spec line you can not use any 2nd gen parts. i understand the fuel injection from the 85 is pretty lame.

62509

You would be starting with an engine that has 135 hosepower stock at the flywheel.

Eagle7

10-13-2005, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by RP Performance@Oct 13 2005, 08:41 AM
You would be starting with an engine that has 135 hosepower stock at the flywheel.

62523

vs an S5 (89-91) with 160 stock HP. Then there's the IRS, and the brakes, and...

hare_ITC

11-03-2005, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by Eagle7@Oct 13 2005, 11:21 AM
vs an S5 (89-91) with 160 stock HP. Then there's the IRS, and the brakes, and...

62548

Right but the SE bigger brakes are decent size, the GSL brakes work fine under IT conditions anyways. the SE in ITS is 150# lighter than the FC, but that still doesn't get it to the same power/weight ratio of the FC. ok so I'm not sure why anyone would want to, unless they obviously had the car ready to make race. Even then competively better off in prod! =)

In IT the first gen has best chances in ITA. Makes sense finacially too rather than having to buy complete SE drivetrain.
Ron Davis
63 EP 81 rx7 (formerly)
22 ITB rabbit (next year)

Marty, hope to see ya at gman again (kid from western that drove the crx that day)

Chris Taylor

11-03-2005, 07:34 PM

I'm guessing the question is related to the GSL-SE on eBay with no title intended to be built into an ITS car.

Would be a fun package... I dont think it would be the killer class car but I think it could be made competitive just about anywhere but the NE and SE. Of course, you'd have to spend quite a bit more money to get there than with an FC.

Boswoj

11-04-2005, 05:09 AM

To say it isn't a class killer car would be a spectacular understatement. There have been a few 84-85 GSL-SE ITS cars built and they have NO chance, even developed to the edge, against the dominant ITS cars. Their brakes and increased horsepower and torque also make them unsuitable for a move to ITA as long as 12a cars reside there so they are essentially an orphan. I would actually guess that they wouldn't even be overdogs against some of the ITA Hondas, but that is a whole different arguement!

Originally posted by Chris Taylor@Nov 3 2005, 11:34 PM
I'm guessing the question is related to the GSL-SE on eBay with no title intended to be built into an ITS car.

Would be a fun package... I dont think it would be the killer class car but I think it could be made competitive just about anywhere but the NE and SE. Of course, you'd have to spend quite a bit more money to get there than with an FC.

64569

ddewhurst

11-04-2005, 09:15 AM

Boswoj, what's the deal with the MacArthur E Prod car ? Who owns the car at this time ? When Bruce had it stored as is with the 12A installed (he cooked the 13B at the Runoffs) from the 2002 Runoffs he was looking for $7,500 as the last number I knew.

Some strange storys with reference to that car. Well, being that we are talking about a race car the storys are not all that strange. ;)

Andy Bettencourt

11-04-2005, 11:12 AM

What about the GSL-SE in ITS at 2350lbs? Anybody think it would be a decent car?

AB

mustanghammer

11-04-2005, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 4 2005, 03:12 PM
What about the GSL-SE in ITS at 2350lbs? Anybody think it would be a decent car?

AB

64613

How could that hurt?

There is an ITS first gen in KC that is a highly developed car. It is being used to test EP suspension pieces and will serve as an EP backup car when necessary. It is owned/driven by Charlie Clark of KC Raceware.

How about moving the GSLSE to ITA and the 12A to ITB?

Andy Bettencourt

11-04-2005, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by mustanghammer@Nov 4 2005, 03:12 PM

How about moving the GSLSE to ITA and the 12A to ITB?

64638

In order for this to work, you would have to do the following (estimates):

13B to ITA @ 2600
12A to ITB @ 2600

or

13B stays in ITS @ 2350
12A stays in ITA @ 2280

What is more pallatable? Both 'fit' the new process.

ddewhurst

11-04-2005, 05:13 PM

13B to ITA @ 2600
12A to ITB @ 2600

or

13B stays in ITS @ 2350
12A stays in ITA @ 2280

Contrary to some comments by others on this site about 1st gen weight I have a ITA legal 1st gen RX-7 "S" model that with 2 gallons of fuel & with my driver weight @ 205 I can come in from track under 2380 pounds depending how the scale is reading for the day. The car dose not have the mandatory future two tubes per door & it dose have the door glass.

Andy, I like the ITA 2280 pounds. Ya I can loose 100 pounds. ;) (just don't ask me where) I don't like the 2600 pound ITB car in the other thread. Adding 220 pounds to a 1st gen RX-7 in ITB would IMHO make the thing as bad as the 1st gen 13B in ITS at whale weight. At 2600 pounds in ITB it would stop like a whale. Lets think SAFETY.

Many people with a 1st gen RX-7 would not win if they raced in IT7. & that's the way life is...................

Boswoj

11-04-2005, 08:44 PM

I don't know the whole story, but I bet it isn't pretty. I was negotiating to buy it at $7500 when he had it listed when the whole "custody battle" started. I don't know enough to take sides, but it sounds like a former employee was storing it in his new shop and after a couple of years of holding it felt he was entitled to sell it to cover the storage. I would hope that they both had a clear understanding of the others obligations in this mattter, but hey - it's racecar stuff and thats all usually done with a handshake. At some point one or the other (or both) got pissed and somebody got greedy over the possibilty of seeing some green from the sale of the car. I am sure you read my posts over at the Prod website - the last e-mails I got from Bruce stated pretty clearly the he thought they were stealing the car. It's a bad situation, and even though I would seriously consider buyig the car I hesitate to get in the middle of that particular soap opera. It's tempting but I've tried to reach Bruce and get his blessing and have been unable to do so.

Originally posted by ddewhurst@Nov 4 2005, 01:15 PM
Boswoj, what's the deal with the MacArthur E Prod car ? Who owns the car at this time ? When Bruce had it stored as is with the 12A installed (he cooked the 13B at the Runoffs) from the 2002 Runoffs he was looking for $7,500 as the last number I knew.

Some strange storys with reference to that car. Well, being that we are talking about a race car the storys are not all that strange. ;)

64605

pgipson

11-05-2005, 12:58 AM

I don't like the 2600 pound ITB car in the other thread. Adding 220 pounds to a 1st gen RX-7 in ITB would IMHO make the thing as bad as the 1st gen 13B in ITS at whale weight. At 2600 pounds in ITB it would stop like a whale. Lets think SAFETY.

The weight for our Spec RX7 is at 2530. With my lard butt in the car I am probably closer to 2570. Give us the other IT stuff and keep the 13x7 wheels, and the RX7 at 2600 (or so) might not be too bad

Marcus Miller

11-05-2005, 04:38 AM

Originally posted by pgipson@Nov 4 2005, 09:58 PM
The weight for our Spec RX7 is at 2530. With my lard butt in the car I am probably closer to 2570. Give us the other IT stuff and keep the 13x7 wheels, and the RX7 at 2600 (or so) might not be too bad

64660

What about at 13*6? ( ITB Spec)

Marcus, who is used to running his Pro7 at 2520 with 13*5.5.... and won his first ever race last weekend at the NASA Norcal season ender. :smilie_pokal: :smilie_pokal:

ddewhurst

11-05-2005, 08:26 AM

***2600 pounds in ITB***

***What about at 13*6? ( ITB Spec)***

Why should the ITA cars be required to spend to move to ITB ? Ya want to buy my 8 Panasports ? Approx $1,600 new..........

Why should we be required to try & stop a 2600 (is 2380 now) pound car with what are at this time questional brakes on the 12A ?

Andy Bettencourt

11-05-2005, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by ddewhurst@Nov 5 2005, 08:26 AM
***2600 pounds in ITB***

***What about at 13*6? ( ITB Spec)***

Why should the ITA cars be required to spend to move to ITB ? Ya want to buy my 8 Panasports ? Approx $1,600 new..........

Why should we be required to try & stop a 2600 (is 2380 now) pound car with what are at this time questional brakes on the 12A ?

64663

David,

You like the ITA option at a lower weight but in order to FIT into ITB, you have to weigh more and downsize the wheels. Dems Da breaks.

AB

ITS5GB

11-05-2005, 10:34 AM

Andy, I like the 13b 2350# option. I still run a 1st gen ITS car here in the Midwest. I run it mostly at Waterford Hills, a tight 1.5 mile track. At one time the car, when owned by Dave Deen, held the track record at Watkins Glen on the long course back in '00.
It still does very well at Waterford. Generally runs in the top 5, with 10 to 15 car fields. Finishes in the top 3 about 75% of the time. Mostly 2nd Gen's are the competition with 1 240Z and 1 E36. Track record is 1:16:668 and I have run a personal best 1:17:303. The car runs high 1:32's at Grattan, 1:39's at Gingerman and 1:46's at M-O.
I have contemplated selling, but it's really not worth much with it's current underdog status. I believe I even spoke with you, Andy, a couple years ago about buying a rental? car from you?
At any rate, knocking 180# off sure would help! What do we need to do to make this happen? I've been waiting years to see something relative to the GSL-SE get revised. Guess nobody cared about it in ITS anymore so I didn't ever try to change anything. Thought I might be the only one in the country still trying with one.

Eagle7

11-05-2005, 10:57 AM

To add some context to this, the best ITS race lap this year was 1:29.0 at Grattan and 1:37.2 at Gingerman. My car (2nd gen) has been WAY down on power (dynoed at 135 WHP) and my Grattan/Gingerman times have been pretty close to what you posted.

Originally posted by ITS5GB@Nov 5 2005, 10:34 AM
Andy, I like the 13b 2350# option. I still run a 1st gen ITS car here in the Midwest. I run it mostly at Waterford Hills, a tight 1.5 mile track. At one time the car, when owned by Dave Deen, held the track record at Watkins Glen on the long course back in '00.
It still does very well at Waterford. Generally runs in the top 5, with 10 to 15 car fields. Finishes in the top 3 about 75% of the time. Mostly 2nd Gen's are the competition with 1 240Z and 1 E36. Track record is 1:16:668 and I have run a personal best 1:17:303. The car runs high 1:32's at Grattan, 1:39's at Gingerman and 1:46's at M-O.
I have contemplated selling, but it's really not worth much with it's current underdog status. I believe I even spoke with you, Andy, a couple years ago about buying a rental? car from you?
At any rate, knocking 180# off sure would help! What do we need to do to make this happen? I've been waiting years to see something relative to the GSL-SE get revised. Guess nobody cared about it in ITS anymore so I didn't ever try to change anything. Thought I might be the only one in the country still trying with one.

64667

ITS5GB

11-05-2005, 11:04 AM

I'm looking forward to running Grattan again next year Marty. Didn't make it this year. If you recall, I broke a spindle last year on Saturday and still made Sunday. Grattan is definitely a lot of fun.....probably my favorite track....love the jump and the toilet bowl!

Marcus Miller

11-05-2005, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by ddewhurst@Nov 5 2005, 05:26 AM
***2600 pounds in ITB***

***What about at 13*6? ( ITB Spec)***

Why should the ITA cars be required to spend to move to ITB ? Ya want to buy my 8 Panasports ? Approx $1,600 new..........

Why should we be required to try & stop a 2600 (is 2380 now) pound car with what are at this time questional brakes on the 12A ?

64663

:blink: I was going down Andy's path, that they would not let us move to ITB without the appropriately sized wheels and tires.

I'm not sure I can drop another hundred pounds out of the ITA car, but I bet it's there...

Marcus

bldn10

11-05-2005, 11:43 AM

"There is an ITS first gen in KC that is a highly developed car. It is being used to test EP suspension pieces and will serve as an EP backup car when necessary. It is owned/driven by Charlie Clark of KC Raceware."

Scott, either Charlie doesn't have that car close to fully developed yet or it is proof that the 1st gen. is not competitive in ITS. At St. Louis last weekend he finished 10th out of 13 on Sat. and 8th on Sun. His best time was a 1:15.853 in the race on Sun. when the fastest ITS lap was 1:11.432 in a Nissan 200SX. I was the fastest 2nd gen. at 1:12.512 but I did a 1:11.406 Sat.

Banzai240

11-05-2005, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by lateapex911@Oct 13 2005, 02:40 AM
wel, thats very true...the weight is too high on the 1st gen to overcome the issues, and I think the 14" wheels are a deficit.

62497

I don't think wheels are an issue... They can run "up to 15" wheels... ;)

lateapex911

11-05-2005, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Banzai240@Nov 5 2005, 11:58 AM
I don't think wheels are an issue... They can run "up to 15" wheels... ;)

64675

But...I think that ends up HURTING the car, because, due to the 7s suspension geometry, and such, handling suffers the higher up it is. I should recheck the available sizes, but when i researched hte wheel issue for the ITA car, I was clearly a step back performance-wsie to go from the 13" to 14" or 15" wheels. Also, gearing becomes an issue, as these motors are VERY different than the later S5 motors.

The brakes ARE better, but the car is still a weird watts linkaged live rear axle, and strut based front with a drag link. THe 2nd gen is FAR better suspension-wise, nd power wise as well.

ddewhurst

11-05-2005, 04:40 PM

***Dems Da breaks.***

Andy, options my man, options is key to racing.................. :023:

My car may in the future have a class designation on the side with words that say.

EP non-ported/non-trans ;)

Per what other CenDiv 1st gen RX-7 "X" ITA racers are doing. We may be cheap E cars that can't win but we still can have fun racing other Prod cars. Ya don't need to have all the E "stuff" to qualify within the rules. Some us understand that we will never win within "any" class that has great cars with great drivers.

Another option the ITAC has is to leave the current cars alone as classed, let current classed cars get re-classed or stay in their current class & use your crystal ball process on newly classed cars. Please don't tell me about ALL the spectators <_< that will be confused. I understand the ITAC process is in the hands of the CRB, BUT just maybe the ITAC didn't look at all the options. As IT numbers are falling & my bet is ya all don't have facts on why the IT numbers are falling you may pi$$ more people off & more people may jump to Prod racing or quit racing.

I look forward to viewing the results three years from the inception date of the ITAC re-classing of current cars & new cars as the come.

hare_ITC

11-05-2005, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by lateapex911@Nov 5 2005, 12:50 PM
But...I think that ends up HURTING the car, because, due to the 7s suspension geometry, and such, handling suffers the higher up it is. I should recheck the available sizes, but when i researched hte wheel issue for the ITA car, I was clearly a step back performance-wsie to go from the 13" to 14" or 15" wheels. Also, gearing becomes an issue, as these motors are VERY different than the later S5 motors.

The brakes ARE better, but the car is still a weird watts linkaged live rear axle, and strut based front with a drag link. THe 2nd gen is FAR better suspension-wise, nd power wise as well.

64678

Magic can be done with a tri-link setup. As far as larger tires/wheels. You can compensate with the 4.88 ratio that most everyone runs, or even 5.12 if you really want. Most of the EP guys we've ran against are on 15's anyways. Yes we're still racing the torqueless wonder called the 12A too.

ddewhurst

11-06-2005, 03:53 PM

Before we throw out the 1st gen RX-7 suspension lets look E Production LP cars of Tom Thrash & Bob Neal at the Runoffs. They do get the job done. ;)

After the 1st gen is dumped in ITB it would be fun to see the two of them along with Rick Thompson & a couple other top shoes race in ITB.

Ron Earp

11-07-2005, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by ddewhurst@Nov 6 2005, 07:53 PM
Before we throw out the 1st gen RX-7 suspension lets look E Production LP cars of Tom Thrash & Bob Neal at the Runoffs. They do get the job done. ;)

After the 1st gen is dumped in ITB it would be fun to see the two of them along with Rick Thompson & a couple other top shoes race in ITB.

64730

I'm not certain but I think Ricky Thompson is racing his RX7 in ITA next year. He just won the ITA race at VIR last weekend if I am not mistaken and there were some fast ITA cars there. Put the 1st Gen RX7 in B and I think Ricky and the other 7 drivers will walk the field.

ddewhurst

11-07-2005, 08:40 PM

Ron, if my post came of negative that was not the intent. I would suspect that Tom, Bob, Rick & some other top dogs would kick some serious a$$ with the 1st gen RX-7 in ITB. Whale weight, 6 inch rims & all.

I presum all cars are legal untill they are protested & found illegal. ;)

mustanghammer

11-08-2005, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by bldn10@Nov 5 2005, 03:43 PM
"There is an ITS first gen in KC that is a highly developed car. It is being used to test EP suspension pieces and will serve as an EP backup car when necessary. It is owned/driven by Charlie Clark of KC Raceware."

Scott, either Charlie doesn't have that car close to fully developed yet or it is proof that the 1st gen. is not competitive in ITS. At St. Louis last weekend he finished 10th out of 13 on Sat. and 8th on Sun. His best time was a 1:15.853 in the race on Sun. when the fastest ITS lap was 1:11.432 in a Nissan 200SX. I was the fastest 2nd gen. at 1:12.512 but I did a 1:11.406 Sat.

64674

That was Charile's first time out in the car. He was running crapy used SM tires, had a few teething problems with the brakes and is running the OE rear end gear. Give him time, the car will go alot faster. He has a huge inventory of parts!

He and I doubt that this car will ever be a good ITS car but it will be well driven and well prepared so perhaps next year it can be used as a yard stick. For what it is worth, he and I believe that it should go to ITA as is - no weight added. Same with the 12A RX7 - move it to ITB at the same weight (just smaller wheels)

mustanghammer

11-08-2005, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by hare_ITC@Nov 6 2005, 02:58 AM
Magic can be done with a tri-link setup. As far as larger tires/wheels. You can compensate with the 4.88 ratio that most everyone runs, or even 5.12 if you really want. Most of the EP guys we've ran against are on 15's anyways. Yes we're still racing the torqueless wonder called the 12A too.

64710

I agree, you can get taller strut spacers that only fit 15" wheels and a 5:12 rear end and 23" tire is the same as a 4:88 and a 21-22" tire. As far as the rear suspension is concerned you can ditch the factory watts link in favor of a panhard arrangement - just like ITA/IT7. Running a 23" SM tire on a 15" wheel is not different than running a 205/60x13 on 13" wheel.

hare_ITC

11-08-2005, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by ddewhurst@Nov 7 2005, 07:40 PM
Ron, if my post came of negative that was not the intent. I would suspect that Tom, Bob, Rick & some other top dogs would kick some serious a$$ with the 1st gen RX-7 in ITB. Whale weight, 6 inch rims & all.

I presum all cars are legal untill they are protested & found illegal. ;)

64830

that's ok, re-reading my post I think I came across too defensive. I guess that can happen when you spent the last 2 years dealing with these cars. :023: Let me rephrase that to being the first car you've raced/worked on

bldn10

11-09-2005, 11:52 AM

Scott, that was part of the reason for my observation: you said it was "a highly developed car" and I knew that could not be the case since Charlie knows RX-7s and knows how to drive. There was a time back in the mid '90s before the S5 motor became prevalent and SpeedSource developed the 2nd gen. and long before the BMW that 1st gen. cars that were very competitive in ITS.