Run Off's or ARRC

[bg43wex]

I spent last week attending the Run Off's at Mid Ohio. I worked for my region, helped crew for a friend and was a spectator.

This was the first time I had been to this event and thought it was cool. from an SCCA members point of view this is the Super Bowl, they really put on a great show from every aspect.

Long test and qualifying sessions, open meetings with the National CRB, parties every night a manufacturers midway and more stewards and volunteers than you can shake a stick at. let's not forget cheap $300.00 entry.

Even the small classes had close to 30 cars. One thing I did notice is the age of many production cars, some were competing in their 30th championship. While I was attending a CRB meeting I listened while many drivers who have these older cars complained about their inability to locate parts. I was told they build them so tight they don’t last, which caused me think why do we allow rules creep or make new rules just so the same cars can have all the fun?

How can the SCCA call this event their "National championship" when they exclude roughly 50% ( probably more) of the regular competitors in their club?

The Regional events that you compete in deliver the lions share of all revenue to your club, while most Nationals hover around even or some loose money.

Next year SM will be included in Topeka for the 06 Run Off’s. As we all know this class has exploded on to the scene in the last few years and helped increase entry levels at regional races. Participation levels in IT have also grown continually for the last few years, not at the level of SM but still a respectable level.

My question to all of you, if you could have the opportunity to head west and compete against the very best in the country would you?

I know the ARRC is supposed to be the equal but I have been there and it is not. Nothing against that event, I just think the distance from the west coast make it an easy decision for them to skip the event, so is it really the American Road Racing Championship?

Without getting into how we could make it happen let's hear what you think?

Brian Mushnick
[email protected]
#3 ITA golf

[charrbq]

Your topic asked a question, but your discussion seemed to follow a different direction.
If given the opportunity to run either championship in my current car (not going to happen), I'd race at the Runoffs, regardless of where they were held. Reason being the exposure to the media, the public, and notariaty (sp) that goes with the event.
That not being the case, the ARRC is the best thing possibly going for IT championships. Even though several divisions have event similar to the ARRC, it is the standard compared to. I'll hear a lot of grief over that comment, but it's true.

[RSTPerformance]

I agree with chris...


If media coverage (TV) was at the ARRC I would say that it was the best racing all year, but the race deffinatly does lack the media coverage required to make it even close to a compairison of the National Runoffs.

As far as adding IT to the National Runoffs, today, I think that would hurt the event and the class more than it would help it. That is Today though and tomorrow I could change my mind... I am really on the fence when it comes to that :) I could argue either way. From a "stewards view" IT would be to much, but from a front runner compeditors view I would love to have IT added to the Nationa Championships.

Raymond

[bg43wex]

if this could be pulled off the event would need to be expanded to 2 weeks. 1500 competitors would most likely overwhelm any track.

while I'm throwing ideas out, shouldn't this event be at a track that no one calls home?

I can think of just one that would fit the bill, and it is almost in the center of the country.

brian ( I want it all ) mushnick

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by bg43wex@Sep 28 2005, 07:54 PM
if this could be pulled off the event would need to be expanded to 2 weeks. 1500 competitors would most likely overwhelm any track.

while I'm throwing ideas out, shouldn't this event be at a track that no one calls home?

I can think of just one that would fit the bill, and it is almost in the center of the country.

brian ( I want it all ) mushnick

61373


Yeah, but do you think Tony George wants us littering up his track?? :P

MC

[dj10]

Originally posted by bg43wex@Sep 28 2005, 07:54 PM
if this could be pulled off the event would need to be expanded to 2 weeks. 1500 competitors would most likely overwhelm any track.

while I'm throwing ideas out, shouldn't this event be at a track that no one calls home?

I can think of just one that would fit the bill, and it is almost in the center of the country.

brian ( I want it all ) mushnick

61373

brian, you need to get the scca to to recognize club racing as a spectator sport. Don't forget, every track is someone's home track. If you have enought practice, home track advantages are usually negated. how do you control factory funded drivers & cars like in AS & T1 (most noteable)? media coverage would help with sponsers, can you get it? I wouldn't be able to get more than a week off.
hell, i'll go to any track where i think i can get a good race. if it smells ok, i might eat it.
dj

[joeg]

Brian--It is THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP. As regional car owners/ racers we know we cannot race there without changing classes.

I do not hink there is a problem and I do not think regional-only racers are slighted with national even though the ranks of regional (IT) are huge.

Regards.

[bg43wex]

Joe,

"National Championship" is only words. The GCR states you must run a national classed car to paticipate, true. don't change classes change the rules.

the GCR can be changed if it is in the best interest of the club or the will of the members. don't get hung up on a them or us thought process, we are all racers and if we want to be part of the big show why not?

no entrant should be expected to take two weeks although many teams test the week before the run offs, the schedule of events would have to be split evenly, there is talk already that the format of 23 races is to much another weekend would help spread the classes.

Tony George ... that would be work, he is a past SRF driver and he does seem motivated by money.

here's the pitch. The largest and most famous sports car club brings it's national championship to the most famous track in the world.

No home track help unless Jaques villneuve comes out of F1 to run F500?

I think fans would be interested, there has to be some hot shot out there who could sell this?

JMO

brian ( I would love to race at Indy) mushnick

[lateapex911]

I haven't seen this years participation numbers, but as it its the last at Mid Ohio, they are sure to be up.

That said, some National classes have historically and consistantly put on terrible races. 17 car fields, 10 second grid spreads, and not even to the really slow guy. It is hard for me to respect a "National Chamionship" when all you have to do is run a few half distance races and show up. Some guys go home bragging about a "Top Ten" Runoffs finish. Out of 17 cars and half didn't finish! LOL..

If you ask me, it does seem like the Regional Racers spend the most and get the least.

And if I were King, I would shorten the event. It's too long and Speed can only tolerate so much, LOL...

I would make all the "National" regional classes eligible, and the top subscribed 21 go to the show. Details could be worked out, a cut off date created. IT would need to have certain cars with documentation issues excluded, but over all it would be a huge boost to the overall program.

I think the racing would be dramatically improved, (full fields of guys that actually WORKED to get there, LOL) which means TV would be SO much better, and therefor marketing and recruiting would improve.

I have always wondered why the SCCA doesn't market IT, as it such a great category for the wanna be racer to get introduced to and hooked on.

They've missed the boat on this for years. What 20 something gives a rats ass about a Sprite? (OK, name 2 then...;) )

[zracre]

I think they should add 50 bucks to the entry fee and take that money and split it in a tow fund for people far far away. Its about 10 hours for me and I'm in the southeast region. It should be split among non southeast competitors guaged by mileage on mapquest. Should not be that hard and if it adds top cars from other areas, why not???...

[ddewhurst]

Brian, Jake has pretty well covered the Runoffs. Without being said by a CRB member It'll be a COLD day in hell when the IT class is allowed to race at the Runoffs. Unless of course a class was develpoed as was Spec Miata & the manufacturing company pushed the SCCA real hard. As in money talks, $hit walks. A good example beyond the Miata is the Subaru which finished 1st & 2nd in SSC (?) & The BMW's that finished 1st & 3rd in their class in what is I beleive is their first year in the class with the specific car. Just like TI is a spec Corvett class. Shall I go on ? Same was basicaly said in the Runoffs Production meeting this year. I could go on further about the Runoffs tent Production car meeting except that it makes me sick to even think about the typical Production car traditionalist choking his/her 50 year old chicken. If you think the Runoffs is the best of the best Jake pretty well coverd that except. The top 10 finishers of each class of each division are invited to the Runoffs. Most every race is a joke if your trying to tell a friend/sponser that they are the best of the best in the country. IIRC previous to the Runoffs being at Mid Ohio the top 4 of each class from each division were invited which was the best mostly. There are drivers now who cherry pick their division so that they can finish in the top ten. Nuff said........ ;) Been there since 1996 when I joined the SCCA. With 4 cars per class invited you mostly had the best of the best.

Agreeing with Jake (sorry about that Jake) that who gives a crap about a Sprite (sorry Ron). The best thing the CRB did was to implement Limited Prep/Restricted Suspension cars to production. With the L/P R/S cars the British stuff is fading into the past just like the Hudsons, Nashes & Olds did in Nascar. There will be zero Full Prep cars classed in the future, MAYBE.

Back to the original subject, I'd go to the Runoffs if I was good enough to be one of the top 3 of my division & if I thought I could compete with the other best of the their division.

[ddewhurst]

***I think they should add 50 bucks to the entry fee and take that money and split it in a tow fund for people far far away. Its about 10 hours for me and I'm in the southeast region. It should be split among non southeast competitors guaged by mileage on mapquest. Should not be that hard and if it adds top cars from other areas, why not???...***

Evan, they have had a tow fund for years. :bash_1_:

[lateapex911]

i think he was talking about the ARRCs....

[charrbq]

Speaking for myself, and maybe a few others, I'd just as soon not see IT become a national class. But I would like to see it get a little better respect from the national office. The Runoffs is the next best thing to going Pro, in many people's opinion. In some classes, it's more expensive than going pro. I fear that having IT become national classes would change the nature of the sport severely. I've been doing this for 30 years, and I've witnessed how such fun, regional classes such as showroom stock have evolved to the T1's, 2's, etc. I can remember when the Jensen Healey was banned because it was too expensive! ($10,000) Times change economically, but there's a whole lot of factory money behind national racing. Not what the average racer gets in contingency, but what the club gets in some manner or fashion. The push behind T1 from Chevrolet, SSB and SSC from Chrysler, SM, FM, and others from Mazda...we'll never see that in IT.
We're too old...both cars and most of the drivers (lol).
It would be nice, though, to see our beloved club office help, with whatever host region and track, define and present a true national championship for IT. Arguements can always be made about location, time, weather, attendance, etc. But if a nationally recognized format was presented with the condolences and backing of our national office as National Championship for Improved Touring, then it would be just that.

;)

[RSTPerformance]

Chris-

I agree with all that you said...

I have no problem with IT being a "regional class", but I do think that it would help SCCA to have a recognized seperate "National Championship" for the regional classes... IE: Recognize the ARRC or simmilar as a National Championship where the head office staff/personell came to visit and support us "liitle people."

Although I am sure that SCCA powers to be might be worried that us little people will compete for sponsors and/or attention and we might become the more desireable championship to win.

Raymond "go little people" Blethen

[bg43wex]

Originally posted by charrbq@Sep 29 2005, 10:53 AM
Arguements can always be made about location, time, weather, attendance, etc. But if a nationally recognized format was presented with the condolences and backing of our national office as National Championship for Improved Touring, then it would be just that.

;)

61417


I hear Mid Ohio has two week available for rent.

[dj10]

[quote]
Chris-

Recognize the ARRC or simmilar as a National Championship where the head office staff/personell came to visit and support us "liitle people."

Although I am sure that SCCA powers to be might be worried that us little people will compete for sponsors and/or attention and we might become the more desireable championship to win.
Raymond

Ray,
Read my lips, according to SCCA, regional racing is a "NON SPECTATOR SPORT". This has to change even if we don't get national recognizition!
dj

[tom_sprecher]

"according to SCCA, regional racing is a "NON SPECTATOR SPORT".

I don't understand the above statement based on my belief that all Road Atlanta events allow and charge spectators. Other tracks may or may not opt to do this based on their insurance policy and the cost thereof.

However, I am not the definitive source on the subject.

[dj10]

Originally posted by tom_sprecher@Sep 29 2005, 11:51 PM
"according to SCCA, regional racing is a "NON SPECTATOR SPORT".

I don't understand the above statement based on my belief that all Road Atlanta events allow and charge spectators. Other tracks may or may not opt to do this based on their insurance policy and the cost thereof.

However, I am not the definitive source on the subject.

61497


They all charge any spectator, but none as far as I know, advertises any regional events due to scca insurance. This is what I was told by a race track faculity.
dj

[RacerBill]

Originally posted by racer14itc@Sep 28 2005, 03:57 PM
Yeah, but do you think Tony George wants us littering up his track?? :P

MC

61374


1) Tony is (as far as I know) a member of SCCA - Indy Region

2) He has all winter to clean the place up

3) We don't have the money to burn couches and junk cars in the infield

Tony opened the Speedway museum for an after-hours reception for Indy Region's 50th annaversary banquet.

[tom_sprecher]

I don't know about advertising and how it relates to the insurance a region and the track has to take out for spectators. I have never heard of a national race advertised except at Road Atlanta's website and its usually a small blurb in the schedule of events.

Roebling Road for example allows no spectators,as do many other tracks in the SEDiv while an SCCA race is being held.

I think the problem is too few tracks and too many organizations with more $$$ than the SCCA. We lost the Labor Day SARRC double at Road Atlanta because the GP motorcyles had more $$$. Another case of money talks and BS walks. Trying to find another track with an open weekend has proven to be a real challenge. Same with finding workers.

If you want more out of the track and the people that put on a race it will cost you more in the form of increased entry fees. We could put on a hell of a party, hire the workers and maybe throw in some media BS if we doubled or triple the entry fees. How 'bout it? I do not need or want that. I like it just the way it is, ARRC and all.

This is only my opinion and if anyone has a specific question they would like answered please ask and as the Atlanta Region SARRC Representative I will see if I can get an answer for you as best I can.

[RSTPerformance]

dj-

Read my lips... (Not sure if you were being funny or angry??? confused on that one :119: ) but anyway I guess I don't disagree with you, all racing should be advertized and promoted. Every product needs that, look at NASCAR :) Question is does SCCA want that? if you have to many series competing against each other then all the series will fail... If I was a consultant from the outside looking at SCCA I would say that "Regional" racing was working perfect (look at the regional class #'s) and that SCCA should really work on the "National" racing end of things, which I must say I thinkn they are working on by changing a lot of production rules...

see look, I almoast feel differenty today...

Raymond "so on the fence" Blethen :)

[Knestis]

Hmmm...

I don't know how insane an idea it actually IS, for the Rub-Offs to be at Indy. Might be that the reason it's never been considered is because nobody has bothered to ask. :)

Very clever.

K

[JeffYoung]

Kirk, a good point. Large facility. More high level exposure. Middle of the country. Makes as much sense as Topeka.

[lateapex911]

Can you imagine!??! Running at Indy! Wow...even if the road course sucked, and the straight was way too long, who cares! Just to actually cross those bricks...as a race driver in a car I built. WOW.

Then I woke up.....

[charrbq]

I'm kinda curious as to where it has been written that regional racing isn't spectator racing. I was told a long time ago by someone who, at the time, knew well about these things, that to have a spectator club race and to advertise it as such, would triple the cost of insurance. Add to that the extra staff and security measures plus any sort of comfort and conveniences you might want to include, and you've got yourself a pretty heafty price tag.
I've been to several club races that had spectators, but the race wasn't advertised as such. I've also been to a couple that were advertised as spectator races and had a couple of thousand people throughout the infield and stands. Our entry fees weren't increased significantly and the spectator tickets were well in line, but the region lost money in the vicinity of 5 digits. True, there were other expenses, but they were there for the benefit of the spectators as well as the entrants.
Someone would have to cover the cost of the insurance alone. I've started seeing my entry fees go from a couple of hundred to double that already. Much more, combined with $100 fill ups in my tow vehicle, and I won't have to worry about spectators at my race. :unsure:

[zracre]

Cool, I just realized, as well as the driver, crew, truck driver, gopher, mechanic, acountant, secretary...I'm also a spectator!!! :happy204:

[dj10]

Guys & Gals,
SCCA is a club/ BUSINESS.
If they can make a buck it might happen, if they can make a good buck they probably jump on the idea.
1. Find out what SCCA needs & wants to pursue this idea.
2. Setup a plan (just like a business plan)
3. Make the sell
Good Luck
dj

[gsbaker]

SCCA at Indy would make a better show than F1 was this year, that's for sure.

[Knestis]

Originally posted by charrbq@Sep 30 2005, 11:19 AM
I'm kinda curious as to where it has been written that regional racing isn't spectator racing. ...


NASCAR - where all of the spectators know the all of the drivers' names
SCCA - where all of the drivers know all of the spectators' names

K

[bg43wex]

Originally posted by Knestis@Sep 30 2005, 04:39 PM
NASCAR - where all of the spectators know the all of the drivers' names
SCCA - where all of the drivers know all of the spectators' names

K

61567

that caused a snarf!!

The difference between spectator and non spectator events is minimal.

The issue is usually does your region carry accident participation as well as spectator coverage? the definition of spectator vs non is spectators don't sign our waiver and are not covered by our event insurance.

Most tracks cover spectator insurance under their general liabilty coverage, they are also the group that collects the revenues from the gate.

Most tracks don't want spectators during a regional because they don't cover the costs for extra security and insurance, but if they could sell a couple thousand tix and some hamburgers and hotdogs I suspect they would be interested.

I once raced in front race fans, it was cool!

brian

[RSTPerformance]

Originally posted by Knestis@Sep 30 2005, 12:39 PM
NASCAR - where all of the spectators know the all of the drivers' names
SCCA - where all of the drivers know all of the spectators' names

K

61567




LMAO :happy204:

Raymond

[bldn10]

The additional SCCA insurance premium for a spectator over a non-spectator Regional event is $350. That includes Participant Accident coverage.

Ever since SCCA added tons of red tape to the waiver requirements, the Mid-South Region has held spectator events. We don't have a marketing budget and don't get many true spectators so there is no additional manpower needed. In fact, we need less security because we don't have to man every entry point to make sure waivers are signed. Of course, if a 1000 folks showed up we'd be up a #$%^ creek.

[Dave Burchfield]

Regarding Indy........

There was a group working on that very thing a couple of years ago. If I remember correctly, the effort was abandoned when the contract suddenly was awarded to Topeka. I believe the whole dynamic of National level club racing changed when the Runoffs moved to Topeka.

[mustanghammer]

Originally posted by Dave Burchfield@Oct 2 2005, 03:11 PM
Regarding Indy........

There was a group working on that very thing a couple of years ago. If I remember correctly, the effort was abandoned when the contract suddenly was awarded to Topeka. I believe the whole dynamic of National level club racing changed when the Runoffs moved to Topeka.

61645


I don't know that saying that the contract was "suddenly awarded to Topka" is all that accurate. There was a process and bids were accepted. As I recall there was even a delay in the decision.

This is all water under the bridge and those of us in the Midwest Divison are excited about what is coming. HPT will be more than up to the task of the Run Offs. You can make a clean pass at HPT in more than just a couple of places.

That said, to a man, I know of no one around this part of the country that would not have been as equally excited about the run offs at Indy. If and when the run offs move again I am ALL for Indy!

[JIgou]

We at MVRG (DMVR and Nebraska regions) buy the spectator insurance for the same reason Bill and the folks in Memphis do - it eliminates a TON of headache and potential liability on the minor waiver issue. All we need is some whiz-bang marketing type to step up and fill the stands for us. :023:


A minor aside, just so I get this straight:
When the move to Topeka was announced, half of the wailing that took place centered on the "fact" the track was "flat." Have y'all been to Indy? Just checking. :P

Jarrod
(will attempt to qualify for Runoffs regardless of location)

[Racerlinn]

There would have to be a monumental policy shift for SCCA Club racing to ever happen at IMS. The logistics and costs to have the facility open are huge. Yes, it has been discussed by the National SCCA office and of course "we" drive past the facility constantly and dream our dreams. And there is the issue of space for the paddock for such as event - remember, there's several holes of a golf course inside now and the amount of usable paddock space is not as large as you would think. Yes, Tony is still an Indy Region member, but he has larger fish to fry in trying to keep is F1 investment and his IRL investment afloat. Right now the next possible entity that may get to race at the track would be MotoGP or some other motorcycle series. I think the ALMS rumors have dried up.

[DavidM]

No offense, but Indy sucks as a road course. It's the lamest course on the F-1 calender. Yea, it's got all the prestige and history, but that was all for oval racing. It blows as a road course. I'd much rather race on an interesting, fun track than on some roval because of the history.

I like the idea of a national IT championship. Seems like any good racer would want to be recognized as the best in their class. I don't necessarily think this means IT has to be declared a "national" class, either. I don't think it makes a difference if IT is regional or national. If all the best guys in the country get together and race then whoever wins is the champion regardless of the SCCA regional/national classification. The SCCA may not recognize this as a "national" championship, but all the guys who raced will know who's the best. Whether or not it can be done logistically I don't know.

David

[Dave Burchfield]

Scott,

I based my use of the word "sudden" on the following:

_ I heard with my own ears, the following statement made by Steve Johnson at the 2004 Runoffs.....
"The Runoffs aren't going anywhere for at least one more contract"

I learned that the contract was awarded to Topeka in December.

Maybe a better adjective would have been "surprising"

It doesn't matter to me where the Runoffs are. Whether I go to work will depend on whether the investment in resources warrants it.

[tom_sprecher]

When Mr. Johnson spoke at the SEDiv annual meeting and awards ceremony he was asked to explain the process that resulting it the runoffs being relocated to Topeka. Basically, he stated that out of the two dozen tracks contacted to host the Runoffs only two responded that they were interested, Mid Ohio and Topeka. Topeka was willing to spend I can't recall how many millions (maybe $30m) to upgrade the track (asphalt and elevation) and the amenities. The price was right so the SCCA went with Topeka.

Obviously, there was the additional benefit of being in their new home town, but after listening to his complete explanation it sounded to me that the decision was purely dollars and cents. The real problem was that only two tracks were interested. With the increased popularity of all things motor driven, very few new road racing tracks being built and the existing schedules of each track, it is hard to find one that has 2-3 weeks available to put on an event like the Runoffs.

I know this does not sound as sexy as some BS conspiracy theory but it is much more plausible.

[charrbq]

Strange, I always thought that a spectator was anyone who watched whether they participated in any other capacity concerning the event. Now, if you take that person, and give him no responsibility other than to watch and enjoy, does he not become a spectator? If a track/region/sponsor/etc., advertising or not, charging or not, allows people to enter within the confines of the race track for the purpose of watching the races, does that not make him a spectator...whether or not it's a regional race, national race, or professional race?

[pfcs]

when we ran the first IT festival in 1990 at Heartland Park, Doug Reed (SCCA executive in charge of club racing at that time, a full time position in Denver) came over to my paddock and started a conversation with me about having the Runnoffs at Topeka. I got the sense that even then the idea had a lot of momentum at National. He expressed the opinion that Topeka would be a wonderful venue. I told him that in no uncertain terms I thought it sucked.

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by charrbq@Oct 3 2005, 09:41 PM
Strange, I always thought that a spectator was anyone who watched whether they participated in any other capacity concerning the event.
61716


Negative, Chris. Anyone who signs into the event (signs the SCCA or otherwise waiver) is considered a participant, bound to the SCCA GCR. That includes entrant, driver, crew, volunteers, etc. As a general rule, a "spectator" is anyone that gets onto the track property without signing any waiver, for the express purpose of watching the event.

If you put your wife on the crew list to get her in free, she's a participant, despite all she may do is pull up a lawn chair and watch the race; if she walks in the track on her own, whether she pays an admission fee or not, she's a spectator. - GA

[Knestis]

As first seen, the NASCAR-SCCA quote used the word "fans" rather than "spectators" - I tweaked it to better fit the context here. Greg's right about the critical distinction, as far as the Club is concerned.

There was a movement back in the '80s, the idea of which was to have each division host a couple of "showcase" spectator Nationals. I think that the Memorial Day Double in NW Region was actually an official "spectator" event a couple of times but the insurance issue raised its head, perhaps with different expectation$ by the track owner, for events that were "supposed to be generating revenue from spectators."

K

[charrbq]

Originally posted by GregAmy@Oct 4 2005, 11:08 AM
Negative, Chris. Anyone who signs into the event (signs the SCCA or otherwise waiver) is considered a participant, bound to the SCCA GCR. That includes entrant, driver, crew, volunteers, etc. As a general rule, a "spectator" is anyone that gets onto the track property without signing any waiver, for the express purpose of watching the event.

If you put your wife on the crew list to get her in free, she's a participant, despite all she may do is pull up a lawn chair and watch the race; if she walks in the track on her own, whether she pays an admission fee or not, she's a spectator. - GA

61728

I stand collected and reshamed. Apparently my sarcasm was lost in the transmission. I am wholly recanted. :(