A1 rear wheel alignment

[evanwebb]

Hi, I need to adjust toe and camber on the rear of my scirocco, and I had been using the "blue adjusters", but every time I take them off I find that the (nylon?) blue part is broken (torn) in one or more places. Are there alternatives? I think I saw some supplier that has steel shims that adjust camber only, but what if I need to adjust toe as well? I was thinking that you could use high-quality hard washers between the stub axle and the trailing arm...

[JamesB]

good question. I know the Shine is camber only. I don't remember if BSI has anything, and their new site is impossible to navigate, I cannot even find parts I know they have there now.

[mgyip]

The shims that I purchased from BSI many moons ago are metal and adjust both toe and camber. At last check, BSI was selling off their VW stuff so they may not carry that anymore but it's worth a shot.

BTW - Evan, your cooler is reposing quietly in my garage. Its contents are quite safe... :birra:

[evanwebb]

Thanks Matt, I'll talk to Stu and see if he has metal shims. Thanks for taking care of my cooler, lets put it to use at MARRS 10. I think it will need new contents though :D



Originally posted by mgyip@Sep 22 2005, 11:27 AM
The shims that I purchased from BSI many moons ago are metal and adjust both toe and camber. At last check, BSI was selling off their VW stuff so they may not carry that anymore but it's worth a shot.

BTW - Evan, your cooler is reposing quietly in my garage. Its contents are quite safe... :birra:

60936

[JLawton]

I'm trying to remember what my set up looked liked. I thought you only have to turn (rotate) the Shine shims to get both toe and camber. May take some trial and error........

In fact, now that I remember, at the last NHIS race, a VW bent an axle and as a band-aide, Dick used one of the shims to get the proper toe..........

[Bildon]

- Do you know how much your rear axle is bending under cornering side loads?
Because if not your toe and camber settings are not even close to correct. An anti-toe link is a good idea.

- An aluminum spacer placed UNDER the rear stub shaft and machined to give a baseline camber/toe setting is a good way to 'rough in' the settings. We then use the thinnest shims to fine tune. We used to use the nylon ones but now we use our metal shims.

[evanwebb]

Hi Bill, did you get my email? Do you have a selection of different metal shim wedges that I can use to get the alignment adjusted?



Originally posted by Bildon@Sep 22 2005, 01:22 PM
- Do you know how much your rear axle is bending under cornering side loads?
Because if not your toe and camber settings are not even close to correct. An anti-toe link is a good idea.

- An aluminum spacer placed UNDER the rear stub shaft and machined to give a baseline camber/toe setting is a good way to 'rough in' the settings. We then use the thinnest shims to fine tune. We used to use the nylon ones but now we use our metal shims.

60954

[Joe Craven]

I just use starter shim stock which is intended for use on GM cars. I cut pieces from it in various thicknesses and mix and match until I get the toe and camber I need.

[Tom A]

Originally posted by Joe Craven@Sep 22 2005, 09:52 PM
I just use starter shim stock which is intended for use on GM cars. I cut pieces from it in various thicknesses and mix and match until I get the toe and camber I need.


Thanks Joe, you just saved me an email.

Tom

[Joe Craven]

I bought my starter shim stock from Kragan auto in California - I think it is Checker elsewhere. It had various thicknesses and was cheap, about 5.99 IIRC.

Here is a link to something like I bought.
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail....artnumber=02350 (http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?categorycode=3132&mfrcode=RNB&mfrpartnumber=02350)

Here are some higher quality shim stock
http://www.reliabilitydirect.com/shimprodu...CC-shimkits.htm (http://www.reliabilitydirect.com/shimproducts/ACC-shimkits.htm)

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by Bildon@Sep 22 2005, 05:22 PM
- Do you know how much your rear axle is bending under cornering side loads?
Because if not your toe and camber settings are not even close to correct. An anti-toe link is a good idea.

- An aluminum spacer placed UNDER the rear stub shaft and machined to give a baseline camber/toe setting is a good way to 'rough in' the settings. We then use the thinnest shims to fine tune. We used to use the nylon ones but now we use our metal shims.

60954


But is an anti-toe link legal under the IT rules?

MC

[Bildon]

Originally posted by racer14itc@Sep 25 2005, 07:57 PM
But is an anti-toe link legal under the IT rules?
MC
61156

Mark, would I suggest it if it weren't? :o

5.c.1 is wide open wrt wording...

Any antiroll bar, traction bar, Panhard, Watts .....
Mounts may be welded or bolted to structure .....
Traction bars used to control VW axle beam :happy204: rotation shall be .. solid bar ... heim rods ok ....

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by Bildon@Sep 28 2005, 02:33 AM
Mark, would I suggest it if it weren't? :o

5.c.1 is wide open wrt wording...

Any antiroll bar, traction bar, Panhard, Watts .....
Mounts may be welded or bolted to structure .....
Traction bars used to control VW axle beam :happy204: rotation shall be .. solid bar ... heim rods ok ....

61316


That's a grey area, to be sure. I'm not sure I'd want to defend it as a "traction bar".

That being said, I don't use anti-toe links on the prod car. If anything, the small deflection helps the car rotate!! :023: People who have tried the toe links have reported that they make the car twitchy, possibly due to the rear axle binding under deflection?

MC

[Bildon]

Originally posted by racer14itc@Sep 28 2005, 08:39 AM
That's a grey area, to be sure. I'm not sure I'd want to defend it as a "traction bar".

That being said, I don't use anti-toe links on the prod car. If anything, the small deflection helps the car rotate!! :023: People who have tried the toe links have reported that they make the car twitchy, possibly due to the rear axle binding under deflection?

MC

61335


>>That's a grey area, to be sure.
I don't think it's gray. I think the wording is quite clear. B)

The bar does rotate but not like a RWD high torque axle would. It rotates longitudinally due to sideloading removing camber and traction ;) as it twists. Also depending on the car and setup I would not say the deflection is 'small'. On the WC Golf 4 the deflection is huge, toe changes over 1/2 an inch with Toyo race tires, 800lb springs, etc.

I've seen numerous Golfs using toes links effectively. One of the things you must do is make sure the bars are equal in length to the arc of the trailing arms or you'll get bind as you suggested. Also, if the bars are attached to the rear lower shock mount area you do nothing to crontrol the twisting moment which is created by the tire sideloading. (The force trying to roll the tire underneath the axle) So what is needed is that the rearward bar mount points need to be on and extended section that resists this sideloading / de-cambering force. Perhaps a picture will help.....
(excuse the welds) :angry:

http://www.bildon.com/pub/A3_panhard_rod.jpg

[racer14itc]

Bill,

After reading the GCR definition of a traction bar and your argument, I concede the point. Nice reading of the rules. :023:

Now I just have to go home and make one for myself and try it out. :eclipsee_steering:

MC

[Joe Camilleri]

Bill,

What do you think of these bars on A1 rear beams? The first one has rod ends that attach in the middle of the beam and the bottom of the trailing arm. The second one (in the next post) is bolted solid up higher on the trailing arm and about a third of the way on the beam.

Thanks.[attachmentid=71]

[Joe Camilleri]

Here's the second one.

[Bildon]

Originally posted by Joe Camilleri@Sep 30 2005, 01:21 PM
What do you think of these bars on A1 rear beams?

61571

If the total travel is less that 2" then method #1 will work OK. But method #2 ?? That looks like it's prone to failure as the solid mounted tabs will fatigure, crack and break unless that's using the same metal the F1 cars use in place of rod ends :D

Is the outer mount on method #1 welded solid too? I fear that'll crack.

Here are some more pics. Drawing is of VW Motorsport factory design.

[Joe Camilleri]

Bill,

Now I see what that first photo was. The car that has the solid bars is sprung very hard, I'm not sure how much travel the rear suspension has but it's probably not much. They are bolted via plates at both ends. I have seen another car that has them welded.

Thanks for the photos and drawing, they are very helpful.

Joe

[Tom A]

Digging this back up, has anyone tried anti-toe links on an A1? IT Legality is not a concern.

Thanks,

Tom

[Sandro]

I have just finished making some, and they are IT legal. I will be testing them out hopefully on Nov 14

[Joe Camilleri]

Tom, look on page two of my build photo album.

[Tom A]

Thanks for the replies, and Joe, nice car.

Joe, what are you running for sway bars, if you don't mind my asking? It looks like yous is similar to the Neuspeed I have, but I notice some bolt heads on top of the beam, is there another bar under it?

Thanks,

Tom

[Joe Camilleri]

Thanks Tom,

Yes, I have a Neuspeed type bar and a homemade Shine type bar bolted under the beam. I don't have enough track time yet to tell you which combination of bars and springs works best.

[Flyinglizard]

Does that panhard bar bolt to the center of the axle??The pivot point is the same as the axle itself? It will bind quite a bit otherwise, and result in a rapid spring rate rise.
Is this to keep toe in or toe out , with travel? I think that it will add some dynamic camber, with load, but very little.
It may work best, tied to the other wheel bottom.
I have loaded these axles up, on my front end machine, and found very little flex @ 1000# of load.
I started developing the rear steer about three years ago, with my Son's solo car. It worked so well, that I have used it on our 3/8mile, circle burner, and IT car( and customer setups). The dynamics, when the rear tire tracks well outside the front tire, are outstanding. Think of a three legged stool. Try to tip it over, pushing against the widest three points, and than along the narrow direction. The change in effort is substantial. The VW is the same as a three legged stool!!. The more that the rear tire is outside of the front tire, the more effort it takes to tip it over.
The dynamics result in more inside front tire load, less outside front load, lower inside rear tire, more load on outside rear tire. More rear tire load means that I can use less rear spring, to get the same turn it feel, along with more grip.
I am trying to envision a "panhard " bar to add to this rear steer, for the road race cars. I can only come up with a "traction" bar, to the rear of the car. This would pull the axle back, upon deflection,but not side load.
Has anyone come up with a side load sensitive system??
The ultra soft bushings are where I am at right now. It works well,but I would like more control of the axle and more high tech stuff back there...
BTW, the circle track car set fast lap, and all of a sudden, all the front wheel drive cars had 1 in of rear toe out. It makes a huge difference with our rules, stock springs, 9in Goodyear slicks. The rear tracking about 10 in outside of the front , unloads the outside tire and adds drive to the inside front tire. Worth about 2tenths,on 17 sec.
MM

[Flyinglizard]

I came up with a "Dynamic Toe Control" rear steer setup. It consist of a triangular lower link to the lower shock mounts. The pivot is in the center of the car, right about the rear of the floor, near the pan cross brace. 40 in panhard bars are available, with rod ends. That seems to be a workable lenght.
The axle bushing size is the only limit to actual toe out under load. I messed with one of the cars ( with soft bushings) and I think that I can get about 3/8 in travel, maybe .5 in. (each side).
The optimal angle of the control arms will take a few tries, as it makes a large difference in travel, as you multiply the side load, into for/aft load.
Anyone interested in this setup, email me direct and I'll foreward the part numbers, and status.
Mke Ogren, Protech, [email protected]

[Tom A]

So if I understand your post, you install super soft bushings, then stayrods that are designed to bind under bump, deforming the bushings and force the whole beam to shift and induce some toe out on the loaded rear wheel?

Interesting.

Tom

[Flyinglizard]

Side load sensitive. The angle between the trailing arms VS the axle pivot, mulitply the side load into rearward force. This can be increased by allowing the axle to move laterally. MM

[Bildon]

Guys keep in mind that the wording of the rules have changed WRT the toe links. No longer a "gray area" nor legal.

For toe, use the camber shims and rotate them and drill new holes.

[JamesB]

pretty much. Then again, I have bent my beam with enough spins that camber was no longer the issue, I had to use the plate nearly sideways to fix the toe.

[Sandro]

Guys keep in mind that the wording of the rules have changed WRT the toe links. No longer a "gray area" nor legal.

For toe, use the camber shims and rotate them and drill new holes.


Little confused, your saying this is not legal ?

http://www.bildon.com/pub/A3_panhard_rod.jpg

[Flyinglizard]

I have it under traction bars and watts link. Traction bars run up under the rear axle. There are no definitions nor mention of any required angle of said arms. Nor does the rule say anyhting about FWD or RWD axle control, as far as I can tell. I have the rules here, but maybe they are old?? They were loaded last week.
Is there an update that I have missed?
By your response, Bildon, I assume that you are passing on the opportunity to market this.
The way I read the rules The device that I have engineered is legal. Also goes faster. Testing went well Sat.
Mike Ogren

[shwah]

Traction Bar - A longitudinal link to an axle housing or hub carrier which resists torque reaction from the driven wheel(s) by acting in compression or tension.

This is the current GCR defenition. I don't think what you are proposing meets this definition. I am pretty sure this was recently updated specifically to close the loophole that you found.

[Flyinglizard]

Thanks Chris. I have it very linear, with the control arms. I can go back to just controlling the axle with the bushings. It works pretty well, but I cant get the sideload multiplied. I can just vector the side load, inside the bushing. This works about as well,but doesnt look as cool under the car, nor cost as much.
BTW What is the GCR def of a panhard bar???
Peace, MM

[shwah]

Every time I read about your bushing solution it intriques me. I just worry about what else that might effect. How durable do you think it would be in a side impact to a tire wall, or with another car?

[lateapex911]

I came up with a "Dynamic Toe Control" rear steer setup. It consist of a triangular lower link to the lower shock mounts. The pivot is in the center of the car, right about the rear of the floor, near the pan cross brace. 40 in panhard bars are available, with rod ends. That seems to be a workable lenght.

The optimal angle of the control arms will take a few tries, as it makes a large difference in travel, as you multiply the side load, into for/aft load.
Anyone interested in this setup, email me direct and I'll foreward the part numbers, and status.
Mke Ogren, Protech, [email protected]

Mike, I'm no expert on VWs, but the traction bar definition stipulates longitudinal members, and driven wheels, and it sounds as though this is anything but longitudinal, and the driven wheels are certainly not involved. Further, the rule calls for any traction bar to be of a one tube/bar design. So I'd say legality-wise, you're on thin ice, if not on unfrozen water!

Further, the rule allows the addition of A panhard bar, not multiple, so again, I think you will run into difficulties in the tech shed.

JMHO, and I may not be understanding your situation properly.

(But, it also sounds as though you haven't been through the GCR with a fine tooth comb, and that's a key elelment to the build process. Again, I might be reading things wrong, my apoligies if I am.........)

[Flyinglizard]

Jake, You are right.thanks for looking it up. "Driven wheels" is new. I can connect the trailing arms and call it a sway bar. Or I can try for a more controlled soft bushing.
I have been running static toeout for 16 yrs. It works because it removes dynamic weight from the outside front tire. There are a lot more small reasons and longer explainations if anyone cares.
Chris, FWIW, I have at least 1000 laps, and 10 hits on the ministock Jett. The axle bushings are fine, the rest of the car is tired. It is the fastest by 1.5 tenth. I have soft/ modified bushings in all of my race cars(3) and maybe some customer cars...
MM

[Grumpa]

Bill Suloff,
Refer to the picture in reply 14 of this thread. I am working with an A1 axle and have the following question. Where would/did you locate the opposite end of the toe link?

[Sandro]

I have mine dead center(left to right, and up and down) on the center flat vertical section of the beam. Before welding I triple checked dimensions to make sure they were in the center. I can swap my left and right toe link bars, without adjusting them.

[Flyinglizard]

I am pretty sure that you need to connect them, to be legal. It has to act a bit like a sway bar to fit the rules. IMHO. MM

[Sandro]

Watts Linkage - A rear axle lateral location system which employs a frame/body-mounted central pivoting attachment (bell crank) for two (2) lateral links, whose opposite ends are attached to either end of the axle housing or vice versa.

[rabbidmk1]

So let me get this straight... These bars help eliminate flex in the rear beam which cause a change in toe? Is it agreed that these help significantly (provided IT rules don't apply) with getting the car to rotate? And where can I find a write up on this or a decent explanation on how and more importantly where the mounting points are and why? :023:

[racer14itc]

So let me get this straight... These bars help eliminate flex in the rear beam which cause a change in toe? Is it agreed that these help significantly (provided IT rules don't apply) with getting the car to rotate? And where can I find a write up on this or a decent explanation on how and more importantly where the mounting points are and why? :023:

There's not 100% agreement that it's better. If you think about it, the rear beam flex is actually in the HELPING direction (toe OUT on the outside laden wheel) which helps the car to rotate.

I've never used the bracing on the rear beam, even on the F-prod car which will pull 1.4 G's in the corners.

MC

[rabbidmk1]

I seem to remember reading that discussion a few years ago. I have had lots of luck with just a rear Bildon bar and stock bushings, but now that I am on the way to Fprod and am installing the rear spherical bearings, lots of ideas like this are becoming more intriguing.

[Sandro]

Bill had me convinced when I read this:(bottom of post)http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17512&highlight=weight

but after thinking about it I realized what Mark said, that the flexing is actually helping you. I had heard of other people trying it without success, but theirs also mounted differently. After reading old articles of the Kamei rabbits and several others that all mentioned adding something similar and seeing that all the MK2 and on VWMS cars had them, I was undecided so I figured I might as well make them and try it out as otherwise I would always be left wondering(and that kills me, I have to try everything for myself). I will be taking the car to the track for the first time with them this weekend and plan on trying back to back runs with them on and off to see what I find.

[Flyinglizard]

Sandro, Your links are toe links, not a Watts link. A Watts has the bellcrank nounted on the axle. As stated, you will need to attatch them to each other to form a legal sway bar,IMHO. Just dont weld them to your car, as you may go slower, when you get done.
Any time that you reduce the active/dynamic toe out, you will lose speed potential. You cant change physics. I summerised the dynamics, in an earlier post.
I will soon have an excerpt from my "book"( windows doc), explaining the FWD racing dynamics, related to this area.
This is the first area to address(dynamic balance), for the ultimate speed of a FWD car. IMHO.
I have raced these cars for about 25 yrs. Road race and circle track.
Disclaimer... Some drivers dont like the feel of the rear tracking so far outside of the front. Most of these guys, you will see twice per race.
MM

[Sandro]

You are correct they are not a Watts Linkage, but they are traction bars:

1. Any anti-roll bar(s), traction bar(s), panhard rod or watts linkage may be added or substituted, provided its/their installation serves no other purpose.

Traction Bar - A longitudinal link to an axle housing or hub carrier which resists torque reaction from the driven wheel(s) by acting in compression or tension.


As far as the effectiveness you may be right, but for the $20 in heim joints that it cost me I though it was worth a shot.