looking for advice on building an itb car [Archive]

tcpip

09-21-2005, 01:06 AM

Quick background:
I'm new to the IT racing scene. I'll be starting down the path of this wonderfully expensive hobby in several weeks, when I attend my first HPDE. My intent is to attend several of these early next year before making the final commitment to this sport and getting my racing license next Fall.

What I'm looking for advice on is how to go about building a racecar. Now, l know I'm going to get replies stating that's it's cheaper to buy than to build. I do appreciate those comments, and I welcome them. But I should state that I'm pretty much set on building. I have 2 reasons for building. The first is learning. I want to learn more about how cars work. I know the basics, but I want to know the nitty gritty details. What better way than to take one apart and put it back together. The second reason is, well, I just like building stuff. That includes budgeting the costs required for the build. It's the engineering geek in me.

Back to my question. I have a 91 Golf that I'm thinking will be my donor car. I may also have the option of using a 96 Jetta. I'll only consider the latter if it get's reclassed into ITB. And finally there is an outside chance that I'll sell 1 or both of those cars and buy a Golf III. Which car would you use and why? With regards to Golf III, which year would be the best. Do you think the stock engines (150,000 on the golf; 200,000 on the Jetta) would survive the track time neccessary to get a racer license? I know that's a bad question. Just assume that the engines are in average condition for their ages.

A couple of related questions regarding cost to make sure I'm not under estimating my build costs.
Cage $1000 including installation?
Race engine $2500?

Last question. Anyone happen to know if Shine Racing builds race engines and install cages for customers? I'd ask them directly but I know they are quite busy and I don't want to bother them with something isn't ready to be dealt with.

-Jon

16v

09-21-2005, 02:25 AM

SRS will do pretty much whatever you want to pay them to do on a motor. I am fairly sure they will point you to a cage builder.

JLawton

09-21-2005, 06:47 AM

Yes, I recommend buying.........

Go with the Golf III

One thing about building, you know whats on the car, the condition and legality. Read, re-read and read 10 more times the GCR. Every time you do, you will pick up on somthing new.

Go to some SCCA races

Get as many HPDE events in as possible. When you go to an SCCA school, you don't want to be worrying learning how to drive your car.

If you are building a VW, Shine is the way to go........

Where do you live?

<edit>
Just realized you do have listed where you live.........duh. If you need help, have questions, or want to check out an ITB GTi, let me know [email protected]
On Oct. 22 we have the NARRCs up at LRP. Might be a good one to check out.....

Bill Miller

09-21-2005, 08:14 AM

As Jeff said, at this point in time, I'd say go w/ the G III. HOWEVER, you might want to wait a couple of months. There's a chance that the Rabbit GTI may see a much needed adjustment. If so, it may be a contender in ITB again. NOTE: The above is pure speculation, so take it for what it's worth.

madrabbit15

09-21-2005, 10:33 AM

I would go with the A2 golf. I have yet to see a legal well prepared A3 beat a legal well prepared A2. The A2 has a lot better transmission and from most of the respected opinions I have spoken to the transmission makes up for any HP gains the A3 has over the A2. Plus the A2 is a better handling car. Time will tell.......
I think that you will see Hondas take over this class in the next 5 years, if you want to win, you need to build any number of hondas for ITB. :(

Derek

JamesB

09-21-2005, 10:47 AM

Personally being yoru first car, and your new to even HPDE, go with a used car. When I worked out my budget for building an ITB car it was around 10k for the car alone.

Cage - 2500
Motor - stock
Tranny - stock
Seat - 250
tires - 600
suspension - 2000
camber plates
harnesses
mirror

Instead I bought a car for 2500, a built motor for 500, sold the seat it came with and bought one that fit me cost was break even. 1800 for my trailer, 400 for reliable gauges and a tach. 600 to have some cage changes made to the door bars as I didnt like the original work.

I still spent less then 10k and I have a car ready for school. Over the winter I need a fresh set of tires and new harnesses as they expire.

tcpip

09-21-2005, 12:50 PM

Thanks for the replies, so far. Just to clarify, I'm not planning on building (or buying) until next spring/summer. I'll defintely be attending races in addition to the HPDEs before I go for my license. I was just at Summit Point for the MARRS Double, and I'm probably going to the NARRC at LRP.

JamesB

09-21-2005, 01:39 PM

Understood, but unless you have built a car before or been involved in a build sometimes its not known how you do it right the first time. Again its still an expense to build ground up if you can find a perfectly good tub thats already prepared.

Keep going to the PDE events and go from there. Thats what I did since 2001.

gran racing

09-21-2005, 02:15 PM

my budget for building an ITB car it was around 10k for the car alone.
Really? WOW! Is that because the donor car you were looking at was really, really expensive? Not picking on you but am curious.

For $10K, you can easily build an ITB car and be a front runner. Yes it takes time and I did not include that. And I'm not talking about requiring a person to have a lot of skill or special tools. It also takes some dedication to read racing books, going to races (oh, no), watching race and your own in-car race video, talking to others about racing, etc.

If you run tracks other then Lime Rock, a limited slip should also be figured into the budget (for the FWD cars you're talking about) when you do the motor.

(In no way am I saying that buying an already built car isn't much cheaper. But as Jon says, there are some advantages of doing it yourself if ya enjoy that type of thing.)

JamesB

09-21-2005, 02:44 PM

Knestis

09-21-2005, 03:39 PM

Well, that clarifies things - go with the MkI GTI, MkII Golf, or MkIII Golf. :D

If I were TRULY only concerned about controlling cost, I'd go with the MkII this year. Ask me again in 3 years, when both the MkII and MkIII are that much older, and I'll tell you different.

In the end though, the box that all of the special parts bolt to is the least of your concerns - cost-wise - over the longer haul.

I don't know that anyone has requested that the MkIII 2.0 Jetta be listed in IT. That has to happen before it's considered. Current thinking tips the scales in favor of the earlier (OBDI) MkIII's, over the OBDII cars - but not by a lot. You have the "4-door or 2-door" question, as well. We got MASSIVELY lucky, finding a non-sunroof, 2-door, stripper, 94 Golf - minus ABS, exploding seatbelt tensioners, and some other stuff that one doesn't want.

It's also going to be tough to get the MkIII all the way to its race weight, I suspect. My goal for the new car is within 50# - that would be 50# lighter than Pablo I.

K

EDIT - we used the original engine for two FULL seasons, ending a few weeks ago at 129,000+ miles. Never missed a beat.

JamesB

09-21-2005, 03:42 PM

Right now thats the only think I dont know about this car is the race weight. I figured I would ask to weigh it if the have the scales setup at the school so I know where its at. The previous ownder did a LOT of stripping including most of the goop on the underbody.

Bildon

09-21-2005, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by gran racing@Sep 21 2005, 02:15 PM
Really? WOW! Is that because the donor car you were looking at was really, really expensive? Not picking on you but am curious.

For $10K, you can easily build an ITB car and be a front runner.
60823

Yes REALLY. Go tear your tranny down COMPLETELY to change the R&P and then add a race diff and new synchros and bearings. How much ahave you just spent?
That's right, depending on whether you did the assembly you could be nearing $2000. And you still have a way to go....

See the optimum words above are FRONT RUNNER.... You have to spend the coin to stay running up front when the fast guys are in town.

I think the A3 should be a faster car once the guys running them get them fully sorted but I've yet to see one beat our A2 cars.

There are ways to save money.
1) You don't need a fully built +.040 motor from day 1. A junk yard gem that has good rings will work great for the first year.
2) Buy used race/rally/A-X shocks & springs from somebody
3) Use stock wheels and get used tires from somebody like me who just gave away a bunch of Kumhos at the last event that had a good weekend or two left in them.
etc etc
4) Some VW racing parts retailers also offer very cheap OE parts to IT racers. You may want to inquire into who does that :D

madrabbit15

09-21-2005, 04:45 PM

I think a fully competitive ITB car that will run up front will cost a lot more than$10k. Buying an already built car will def. be a cheaper way to get on the track and run competitively. Thats what I first did. If you want to run up front and win, it is going to cost that much more and many parts on that already built/used race car will need to be replaced with the "correct parts". If you are already a racer and you want to win, you might as well start from scratch, if you want to race and get some seat time then buy used and gradually replace what you think you should. Now sometimes you might have a chance to buy a car was was built well, but this is IT, and most are done sort of halfway. I think any of guys that run up front, if you put your pen to paper and add up everything gone into your cars including dyno time, you will find that it was probably over $10k.

Derek

gran racing

09-21-2005, 05:15 PM

Well, I really don't feel much like debating this since there is absolutely nothing to debate. My B car was built for under $10K (a huge portion of the money was spent this winter to have someone build me the engine and tranny so my figures are pretty up-to-date) and I added various other costs including donor car value of $1,000 (I had the car and couldn't sell it for $500), vinyl lettering, necessary SCCA decals, basic tools, etc. to the expense sheet. Will I be up front when the fast guys come to town? I will say I've run against some pretty fast B cars and do o.k. for myself. The ARRC will be very tough but interesting at the same time.

But heck, if you want to say building a front running car is only possible because I'm a great driver, I won't fight you too much. :D Ray and Stephen B. have come down and to the ARRC and qualified 1 & 2 last year. Cars they swear could be built for under $10K. (I'm not including a trailer or tow vehicle into this figure. Although I only have a $500 used tow dolly.)

Oh, a LSD from OPM is no where near $2,000 including the tranny rebuild. And my car has a fully preped (minus dyno tuning that's happening within this month) engine and .040 over pistons. As I said before, buying someone elses car is still the cheapest way to go. And unfortunately the expenses don't stop when the car is built as Jon has seen with my car.

tcpip

09-21-2005, 07:14 PM

Ok, I new I was going to get into trouble when I said the 'buy is cheaper' comments are welcome. But I've gotten some good comments on which car to use, so that's fine. Namely that there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus that the A3's are obviously best choice.
The last couple of comments mentioned front runners. It's not my intention to go out in my first year of racing and podium every race. I'm just going out to have fun, and drive well. If it comes down to me not winning only becase of my car, then that's fine. I'll then do some work on the car after each season. I'm in no rush to be the guy everyone's gunning for.

Jeff: Which car do you drive? If you were at Summit, then I'm must have seen you. But there was a yellow A2, white A2 and a yellow A1 GTI, (and the General Li, but I know that's that you) so I don't remember which one you are.

Bill Miller

09-21-2005, 10:26 PM

Well, Kirk is in the process of building a car from the ground up. I'd bet that if you ask nice, he'll share his build costs w/ you (as long as you promise not to tell his wife! :bash_1_: :D )

Knestis

09-21-2005, 11:12 PM

I tell this story a lot but back in the Old Skool days of IT - like the '80s - a friend of mine built a GRM project ITB Rabbit. He used to tell people at auto shows and so forth that they could be out there racing something exactly like it for X dollars...

...but when it came time to sell it, he was asking 2X.

Any time someone gives me a lowball figure for building a racing car, I want to suggest that instead of "adding up what it cost to build," they add up what they spent on other stuff, subtract the hit over time on their net worth (assets minus liabilities like those pesky credit cards), and see what the difference is.

Here's a test: Shop online and tell me what your best buy deal is to install a master switch including a dual-circuit switch, 6 feet of battery cable, big wire lugs for the ends, smaller wire for the alternator circuit, a package of other terminals (pretty much impossible to just buy 2), shrink wrap, tie wraps, and grommets. Oh, and you need some kind of bracket, too. Include shipping or provide an estimate for gas and time necessary to chase everything down locally.

Yeah - I COULD build an ITB Golf II for $3000. I could probably even get it through tech. I sure as hell wouldn't spend a Saturday morning working up to flat-footing VIR's South Bend in it. And it would look like crap which just isn't OK.

K

Bill Miller

09-22-2005, 06:54 AM

Originally posted by gran racing@Sep 21 2005, 02:15 PM
Really? WOW! Is that because the donor car you were looking at was really, really expensive? Not picking on you but am curious.

For $10K, you can easily build an ITB car and be a front runner. Yes it takes time and I did not include that. And I'm not talking about requiring a person to have a lot of skill or special tools. It also takes some dedication to read racing books, going to races (oh, no), watching race and your own in-car race video, talking to others about racing, etc.

If you run tracks other then Lime Rock, a limited slip should also be figured into the budget (for the FWD cars you're talking about) when you do the motor.

(In no way am I saying that buying an already built car isn't much cheaper. But as Jon says, there are some advantages of doing it yourself if ya enjoy that type of thing.)

60823

Dave,

While I appreciate your comments, I think you're setting unrealistic expectations. I can get to $10k pretty quick, w/ just the big-ticket items. And w/o some decent mechanical skills, and some special tools, you will absolutely get there in a hurry. No tubing bender/fish-mouth cutter, and mig welder? Plan on spending $1500 - $2500 to have someone put a cage in the car. Suspension? Don't think you're going to get anything that's competitive for < $2k, and even that may be hard today. Sure, you can probably get a set or two of OEM 14x6 alloy wheels for $100-$200/set, but they're probably not going to be the lightest things out there. The Kosei's that Kirk got for Pablo, were very nice, and pretty light. IIRC, those were like $500/set. And then there are the tires. What's a new set of Hoosiers (225/50/14) cost these days? $600? $700? Granted, tires are a consumable, but you have to get the original ones on the car. And you're not going to run at the front w/o new ones. By my count, that's ~$6k - $7k so far. You will pretty much spend what's left on the motor/trans. Leaves nothing for a race seat, belts, brakes, gauges, etc. etc. etc. Also doesn't leave any money for any labor on the car.

Sure, you can build a car and get it on the track for less than $10k. However, don't think that it's going to run at the front. And placing no value on your time/labor is a false economy. Change that $10k number to $15k, and I think you're a lot closer. If you have the car built for you, figure on adding another $5k. Several years ago, there was a discussion about the cost of a shop-built car. Cost of the car was $19k. This was an ITB A2 VW Golf, built by one of the top VW race shops in the country. It was a beautiful car, and was quick.

Like Kirk said, I'm sure you can get a car on the track for $3k - $5k, but it's not going to run at the front. Take the minimalist way out, and you can easily get there.

JLawton

09-22-2005, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by tcpip@Sep 21 2005, 06:14 PM
Jeff: Which car do you drive? If you were at Summit, then I'm must have seen you. But there was a yellow A2, white A2 and a yellow A1 GTI, (and the General Li, but I know that's that you) so I don't remember which one you are.

60857

Jon,
Welcome to the debating world of IT. Many, many differences of opinion!!

I haven't had my car down to Summit Point. I do LRP and NHIS.

If you want to gamble that the GTi will get a weight break, that may be the least expensive way to go. I think they will be in the mix if they go on a diet. Just remember though, all the parts will be 20 years old!!! I agree with getting something reliable, stock engine and plugging away at it. Eventually, every part will have to be replaced.

Again, if you want to check out the car (I'm only 1/2 hour away) let me know or stop in at the NARRC. You will also see a great variaty of FAST ITB cars. Dave's Honda, Volvos, Audi's, Golf's, a Saab, any one of them VERY capable of finishing on the podium. New England also has some pretty big ITB fields, 15-20 for most of the races.

It's a sickness, get out now!!

gran racing

09-22-2005, 08:35 AM

Cage $1,500 - $2,000. Sure you can, but you can also buy a Kirk or Autopower bolt in cage for much less. $2,000 plus for suspension, yup, the sky is the limit here. But you can get a nice suspension / springs for ~ $1,200 (I went with a custom Leda unit). Wheels - I bought 5 used VW rims from eBay. eBay and Home Depot are the best race shops around! And guess what, the rims are pretty darn light!! Tools - I just have the very, very basics and most are a Walmart special. But check out tag and estate sales. Before building the car, about all I could do is change the oil and brake pads. This is one of those areas that Jon's looking for also - learn by doing. It is pretty amazing what a person can learn to do when they have no money, are passionate about racing, and have great resources such as this forum. This past winter I even swapped my own engine (although I took like 40 digital pictures and spent hours labeling hoses that I had no idea what they were). But when it actually started? What an awesome feeling. An interesting bet would be to have a $10K or less budget to build a car. If it can't be a front runner, it is yours. If in one year it can, you pay the $10K and I keep the car. Any takers? :)

I also need to be stress for any novice reading this that I said a CAR that could be a front runner. It takes a significant amount of effort and work for the driver to be at that point too. As Jon realizes, it doesn't happen overnight either. (Jon often hears me whine about the work racing takes, how much freakn' tires - Hoosiers- cost. Driving the car is only a part of it.) Uggg! I'll finally stop with the How to Build a Front Winning Capable Car on a Budget discussion. (I can hear Jon saying Thank God!) I'll save that for another time and place.

Jeff - so I hear you started wearing Hoosier shoes? I still haven't gotten used to them and the added costs!! I kinda wish we were running on a spec Toyo. Those lasted forever!

Back to our regularly scheduled show....How much weight do you think the GTi would need to lose to be in the hunt?

gran racing

09-22-2005, 08:38 AM

Guess I should add this. Kirk and Bill are totally correct - there are many costs that can be easy for someone to hide from themselves and thankfully spouses :rolleyes:. Oil, brake cleaner, bolts, wire ties, etc. I certainly don't disagree with you guys there!

JLawton

09-22-2005, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by gran racing@Sep 22 2005, 07:35 AM

Jeff - so I hear you started wearing Hoosier shoes? I still haven't gotten used to them and the added costs!! I kinda wish we were running on a spec Toyo. Those lasted forever!

Back to our regularly scheduled show....How much weight do you think the GTi would need to lose to be in the hunt?

60897

The Hoosiers have been great. Still trying to get consistant on them. I cut 2 seconds off at NHIS, but can't do it on every lap. Getting some wheel spin issues..... You guys are introuble when I get it figured out!! :D

The bigger question is how much can you legally take off the GTi. 150lbs off would be nice and make it competitive, but I'm not sure I could do it........

mgyip

09-22-2005, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by gran racing@Sep 22 2005, 07:38 AM
there are many costs that can be easy for someone to hide from themselves
60899

Hidden costs? There are NO hidden costs in building a racecar. Ignored or overlooked costs maybe but unfortunately nothing is hidden when the ole credit card bill rolls in (smouldering) every month. :bash_1_:

Agreed, it's possible to build an ITB car (or even a GT1 car for that matter) for $10K provided the builder is frugal and willing to work with less than brand new, perfect equipment. For a first-time builder, perfect parts are nice but not completely necessary b/c a rookie driver doesn't have a reference point per se (no offense, Jon). To quote a friend from my autocross days, "Don't do anything to the car until YOU know what to do". This STILL holds true - build the basic car with good parts but save your pennies and don't buy the super-trick "race only" parts until you know exactly what you need to make the car do what you want. In other words, don't follow the Rice crowd and add parts just b/c it's cool and everyone else has one.

In reference to VWs in the ITA/ITB field - I don't remember the yellow A2 at the Double MARRS. The white A2 and the yellow A1 are both locals - Rob and Guy respectively. The only VW missing was Larry's A1 16v Slorocco that ate a headgasket. :o

madrabbit15

09-22-2005, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by gran racing@Sep 22 2005, 12:35 PM
Cage $1,500 - $2,000. Sure you can, but you can also buy a Kirk or Autopower bolt in cage for much less. $2,000 plus for suspension, yup, the sky is the limit here. But you can get a nice suspension / springs for ~ $1,200 (I went with a custom Leda unit).
60897

This is just what I am talking about. Sure you can get a kirk or autopower cage, but thats not doing it "right" nor does it offer anywhere near the structural rigidity or safety of a custom 8 point cage. A racing suspension that is adjustable and non of this street crap is going to cost more than $2000. Sure it can be done for less, but that does not mean that it is near as good as the real stuff. I use to run tokicos and poly bushings and thought that that was good enough, and it was good enough to get by, but I did not know what I was missing until I went to custom valved double adjustables konis and delrin bushings. (Spherical would be even better.) There is a very big different between getting parts that work and getting the correct parts that do it better. I know folks who have spent probably 3 times on shocks than I have and I am sure that because they know how to use them, they are probably faster because of it. I do have no clue what parts some of you guys run, but can we not kidd ourselves into thinking that something like a tokico shock is as good as a advanced design one or that poly bushings are good as spherical. There is a big difference between doing it and doing it right. I can not afford to do it right on all of it, but I know the difference. When I said it would cost close to $15k, I said that was doing it right.

Derek

67ITB

09-22-2005, 11:54 AM

Jon,
Shine will build race engines, BUT…they have been taking a long time so plan ahead and give yourself plenty of time. But it will be the most reliable, Highest HP, legal engine you can buy.

They wont do a cage for you, but will recommend Chris Howard (someone here can post his #) I don’t know it.

Shine is very busy right now as the Manager (Eli) is on his honeymoon for a few weeks, but they did recently hire another mechanic so the turn around time should improve.
My engine will be a winter project with them.

Come on Jeff you could stand to loose a few pounds!!!!!!!!!! You must be pushing 130-135LBS?
Also Jeff you have to get rid of all the undercoating on the INSIDE of your car!!!

Eli and I have been looking into it and it looks like we can get a sizeable chunk of weight off the car for very little $$ but a bunch of time and energy. Read the rulebook and go line by line on what you have and what you can remove or replace with a lighter version

And of course BOTH our drivers could stand to loose 30-35lbs(or more)

Jon Good luck with your project and if you need any help please just post your questions here and as you can see you will get a bunch of help, guidance assistance and most of all OPINIONS but I would much rather learn from someone else’s mistake than spend my time and money doing what has been proved ineffective

Good luck and welcome to the madness

Matt Bal

gran racing

09-22-2005, 12:18 PM

I know Jon, I just said to you I wouldn't reply but... (Jon and I work together.)

but thats not doing it "right" Says who, you? A Kirk or Autopower cage is just fine for what we're doing in IT. When I had my custom cage built, it cost $1,200. And I didn't say get some ricer struts. Re-read what I wrote. Again. I bought a custom non-adjustable Leda suspension; $1,200. They based the build upon my car, the type of tracks I drive, etc. I am extremely pleased with it! For someone new, adjustable struts is one more thing that you need to adjust and know how to tune properly. Many don't know how to do it properly and would be better off with non-adjustable. No where am I saying that $10K will be enough to built a fully developed car, then again I've never ever seen a fully developed car although Serra's Integras and CRXs are close. But a car capable of being at the front - yes. What about the Blethen's cars? Are they preped to the fullest? No. Do they kick some butt? You better believe it. Ask them if they'd take the $10K bet I mentioned before.

Some people have a car that is cabable of being a front runner but don't take the time to develop themselves. There are many things that people can do that don't cost much money. One great thing I did was have Tom Blaney instruct me at an open lap day. Definately worth the money. I also instruct at HPDEs which not only provides me with very cheap seat time, but also reinforces the basics by me coaching new and seasoned drivers.

When building a car, a person needs to take time and use some creativity. I finally added brake ducts this year. Bought some good hose that is intended for the purpose, then off to Home Depot and Stop & Shop. Some PVC goodies to pick up the air, then two good ole cans of peas for the vent to the rotors.

Matt, you're more then welcome to stop by and check out my car at the NARRC and we can debate some more over a few beers.

Knestis

09-22-2005, 12:32 PM

I'm NOT picking on you personally, Dave but I've been racing IT cars since bolt-in cages (Autopower had the market cornered then) were required - i.e., welded in cages were illegal! I've seen a lot of those cages get crashed and, at this point in history and knowing what we know now, it borders on irresponsible for us as a community to endorse the idea of someone tear-assing around someplace like Road Atlanta in a car with a bolt-in cage. Regardless of whether it's legal or not.

Similarly - and I have very recent experience on this front - the difference between the safey provided by a cheap-o (if legal) seat and a really good one is priceless. If that particular $500 or whatever is what would keep a person from getting on the track, it is just possible that they can't REALLY afford to play this game.

Just one guy's opinion.

K

mgyip

09-22-2005, 12:42 PM

Building a car from scratch, especially for a rookie is all about spending money in the right places. I completely agree with Kirk that the two best places to spend your money are on a custom cage and a drivers' seat. My first few seasons were with a bolt-in cage and the factory seat which was (and I think still is) legal with a back brace. I went so far as to crash-test the cage and bar and while I wasn't injured, it certainly made me think twice about "the bare minimum" in safety equipment.

Don't be as concerned about having the ultimate race shocks or the barely legal motor - as Jon has stated, he's about learning and having fun which is the right attitude. Very few folks who start out as "the fastest driver ever" actually end up with any trophies other than a bunch of bent sheetmetal and the ire of their fellow competitors. That stuff will come as he learns what it takes to be fast (one he figures it out, I'll be calling for pointers). The first goal is to be safe both in the car (read: safety equipment) and as a driver (read: head NOT impacted in one's rectum). :blink:

gran racing

09-22-2005, 01:07 PM

Nope, I don’t think you’re picking on me personally and do have an appreciation of what I previously called hidden costs or things people don’t take into consideration when building a car. I personally think Kirk or Autopower cages are pretty decent, but I would recommend that it be welded versus bolted on. It is pretty amazing what people can get when they bring beer with them.

Kirk, take a step back for a minute. If someone really offered you a free $10K car if you could make it a front runner, you wouldn’t think about it? And this is using any ITB platform that is currently classed. I guess the part that really bugs me about these types of discussions is that I spent less then $10,000 on my car and I consider it capable of running up front. Do I personally make dumb mistakes that impact this outcome? Unfortunately yes. I guess many of us have different perceptions on what it takes to make a car a front running car. Haz-Matt made another good point – it is about spending money in the right places including safety gear.

itbgti

09-22-2005, 01:20 PM

Let's also remember that spending $10k on the "right" car can make all the difference...Audi, Honda, Volvo, and some others are what are considered to be the "right" cars....spending $10K on a car that is not the ideal car for the class will get you no where.

Good discussion.

Regards,
Alan

JamesB

09-22-2005, 01:29 PM

Well thats why I felt I made the right choice and suggest it as a possiblity to consider going with a built car. I got a great deal on a car that has already had some considerable development including a well fitted weld-in cage. I did have to make some changes tot he cage to make me feel safe, the drivers door bar was insanely high, and the passanger door bar I had changed to a double siemese style for better access to the car if needed and I can run a seat there if I run at a HPDE where I lack a solo signoff.

I think matt agrees I really did get a heck of a deal on this. I still have under 7k into the car, trailer, cage work, seat and safety gear. The only thing that could use money and wont see next season thanks to gas prices and my house is a diff with a better R&P with a full rebuild since its a 120k mile transmission.

I could have built a car for that much if I cut out some of the stuff I now have on the car that I didnt have to pay for. And yes, beer does go a long long way with some people.

JLawton

09-22-2005, 01:38 PM

I lived both sides of this argument. If i didn't go half a** with my first car, I would have been leaning on the fence just watching. But knowing what I know now.....
Don't skimp on safety!

I don't know how much money Dave put into his car, but he certainly is a front runner. In fact, he's won at least one race in a very competitive region. I know the Blethan's drive the snots out of their cars and they certainly aren't built to 10/10s.

As the commercial says, "Just do it".

Matt B:

Originally posted by 67ITB@Sep 22 2005, 10:54 AM
And of course BOTH our drivers could stand to loose 30-35lbs(or more)

60938

Ahem, cough, cough....
:018:

Dave G, you've got e-mail!

tcpip

09-22-2005, 02:06 PM

Despite the argument going on here, I do appreciate the discussion. Something I want to add to this, is that I'm not planning on building a front runner for year 1. So far I'm budgeting for the required safety equipment, and suspension. No engine, no tranny. I'll save those for years 2 and 3. I'm not looking at spending all the money required for a full prepped car, up front. If that was the case, then I'd more seriously consider just buying a prepped car. But with very little experience, it would seem that I have little chance of actually being a front runner, regardless of the car. By the time I get to the point of being a good driver, I'll have to start replacing worn out parts anyways. Maybe it's still cheaper (you'll never need to over bore the engine again, right?), but it's a cost that will come sooner I buy a used car now, instead of building a 'new' car later. (I'm mostly thinking of engine/tranny with the comment.)

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that building a car also aids in becoming a better driver. Sure, I can ask someone how a big rear bar increases latteral or motive traction (I know I don't know what I'm taking about), but for me it really helps to put the peices together. I know it helped when I watch the guy at Shine (damn, what was his name?) put their Real Street Kit into my A4 Jetta. He had me push the stock shock into a table and then a Bilstien HD. 'Ok, I see how this is going to change part of the handling of my car.' I did know basically how things were going to change (otherwise I wouldn't changing my suspension), but seeing the parts going into the car helped me more.

Another point. I don't buy computers, I build my own. Is it cheaper? No. Do I get the parts I want, based on how I'm going to use the computer? Yes. I'm not taking about buying a Dell, but something that's built for performance. I just want to spend the money on exactly the parts I want, based on the research I've done. Like I said, I really enjoy the building part of this as well as the research into what parts to use. I should also point out that I'm a 80/50 guy. I usually buy things (mostly electronics) that are 80% as good as the best performing part, that are usually 50% of the cost of the best part. I'm not going to spend every last penny that I have just to finish 1st place. It's not worth that much to me. Or at least, that's what I keep saying to myself. ;)

JamesB

09-22-2005, 02:10 PM

hahaha, on the weight loss thing, I started that in 2k. My goal is to shed about 10lbs by spring school.

Even then I dont think ill be under min weight, but I do plan to get the car weighed so I know where I am at.

gran racing

09-22-2005, 02:25 PM

Let's also remember that spending $10k on the "right" car can make all the difference Excellent point Alan! When I was in ITA, no matter how much money I spent on the car it would still be a mid-pack car.

Something I don't want to get lost in this discussion. The past two years when I was racing in ITA, I had some awesome battles with a certain MR2. Ironically we became friends through IT.com before we ever actually set foot on the track together. When I say close races, it would be very odd if we didn't quailfy right next to each other. We're talking hundreths of a second apart consistantly. Some of those races were the most fun I've ever had racing, and it was for 14th place / midpack. The grin I had when we came off the track was something else. This year I've been very fortunate to get the taste of running up front and even win one. I had this notion that winning would feel so much better then beating Jake for 14th. Nope, not really. And running against Jake using Toyos, unbuilt engine, no LSD was certainly much less expensive. Don't get me wrong, the win at a track I grew up attending races was really a great feeling especially knowing the capabilities of drivers I was with. At the same time, I can honestly say that winning isn't what IT is all about. (I do need to remind myself this and often am too hard on myself.)