legal question

[tcpip]

Newbie here. As someone who has just been introduced to IT racing, and starting to take baby steps to becoming an IT racer, I've been thinking about something. Legally speaking, can racers be sued by other racers? Whether it be for car damages or actually bodily harm. I'm under the impression that you can't, but I just don't understand what legal prevents this from happening. Do you waiver the right when you sign the waiver to enter the track? How about when you register as a driver for the event? Or is there just some law, or lack of law that doesn't allow this to happen? Sure there is incidental contact, especailly on the first lap (poor General Li), that may be acceptable, but what about actually recklessness?

As you can see I don't know anything about the law with regards to racing. Any help, especailly from any lawyers that might be here, would be great.

-Jon

[mgyip]

SCCA Club Racing was founded on the premise of gentleman's racing - that is that each person was responsible for him or herself and their cars. Damage occuring on the track was (and still is) part of the risk accepted when taking a car onto a racetrack in a race situation.

Theoretically, you sign away your right to sue when you enter the race. Amazingly, even with the number of lawyers and legal eagles that race, they abide by this understanding. That isn't to say that purely stupid driving is tolerated however - quite conversely there are several courses of action that can be taken against a reckless driver.

The first course of action which is often initiated by a wronged party (the innocent by-stander whose car gets banged up by a stupid manouever) is a protest against the aggressor. Depending on how closely the aggressor has been watched in the past for other conflicts, this results in anything from a "stern talking to" to a license suspension.

If the license suspension doesn't cure the problem, it is possible for the Stewards to require the offending party to re-take a school or two. After which the Stewards will watch the party closely for any foolishness. If the foolishness continues, the Stewards can petition National to remove the party's license in perpetuity.

At the same time, every region has the right to refuse entry to anyone for any reason. In other words, if a certain individual has a known history of recklessness BUT has been granted a license thru a miracle, a region could "just say NO"!!

On an informal level in the WDC region, we have Drivers Representatives for each class of car. If a conflict arises between drivers in the same class, those drivers are strongly encouraged to contact their Drivers Rep to help mediate the problem - often times the problems are caused by two stubborn individuals who are both right (in their own minds) which is not uncommon for drivers b/c we're all perfect ;) If the Drivers' Rep is unable to solve the conflict unofficially, then the confict moves to the official channels (see the above).

In my case, the driver that caused the General Li's untimely demise made a point to speak with me after the incident. We spoke about the incident and came to a mutual understanding of what happened. He appologized profusely and even went so far as to offer to help in the rebuilding process which is quite opposite of the norm - in most cases, it's "Sorry about that" and nothing else.

Fear not, the South Will Rise Again. Oh wait, that was a bumper sticker from my wicked youth - what I meant to say was "The General Li Will Race Again". :eclipsee_steering:

[Bildon]

Has there ever been a case of an SCCA competitor or their family sueing another competitor for bodily harm/death which occured during a race? ...whether by accident or negligence doesn't really matter...

I've always though that with the changing world it was only a matter of time...and when that day came...our sport would end, quickly. I hope I'm very wrong.

[mgyip]

Originally posted by Bildon@Sep 20 2005, 09:27 PM
I've always though that with the changing world it was only a matter of time...and when that day came...our sport would end, quickly. I hope I'm very wrong.

60768


I hope the day never comes but in light of the US legal system's minimization of personal culpability, it's probably just a matter of time - remember, anything that you do can be attributed to someone else's inattention to detail. In other words, you can jab yourself in the eye with a sharp stick but sue the manufacturer of the sharp stick b/c they didn't blunt the end of the stick, afix warning labels and provide a Steward to prevent you from injuring yourself.

If an SCCA member initiates a lawsuit for negligence, I get a funny feeling that member would rather quickly discover trackside justice (much akin to Frontier justice but without the hangman's noose and a horse).

[joeg]

The releases you sign at events are "Covenants Not To Sue".

In addition, if you read them carefully, you will note that you indemnify the club for your actions, including bringing lawsuits.

The GCR also contains language that is useful in such circumstances.

People (or their estates) nevertheless do sue the Club, organizers , etc. for track incidents. That is why we have insurance--to pay for the defense of such litigation.
Sometimes the cases settle and/ or result in monetary awards to the plaintiffs as decisions of the insurer or various state laws.

For the most part, the releases do work and we do not become liable for civil damages from action at the track. Assumption of the risk for inherently dangerous activities--which describes auto racing--is pretty much adhered to in many states. Remeber, the operative phrases are "for the most part" and "many states"; if you actually do something to another competitor that is truly malicious and injurious, the criminal system overides our SCCA legal system.

Think prosecutions for Hockey fights.

[bldn10]

I seem to recall that there have been some instances in which a contact sport player who put an intentional, illegal hit on another player, especially if using a "weapon," was actually charged w/ criminal assault. (hockey player using his stick or football player using his helmet) I doubt that any waivers, etc. would protect against criminal acts. I think those NASCAR boys better think twice about the blatant retaliations I've seen lately.

[Prophet]

I would like to think that no matter how many waivers you sign, there would always be an avenue for legal action. If malice or intentional negligence could be proven, one should always be able to pursue legal action, no matter how many waivers you sign. The waiver you sign when you enter the track states you won't sue the organizer or the track if you get seriously hurt or god forbid die while particiapating. It also states that your estate is responsible for the actions of someone taking legal action for you and/or your estate. Its a side step that nullifies the any awards.

One thing I'm sure we all understand, motorsports no matter what kind, are inhereintly dangerous. You sign the waiver stating the fact that you understand that.

I work for an insurance company (I don't work in insurance) who insures quite a bit of motorsports, including most of Nascar Nextel Cup, CART, lots of circle tracks, road circuits, etc.... They have good legal teams and for a reason.

One such instance that haunts me (i've seen the photo's of the wreckage) was when a roundie rounder (midget or something) spun and in a freak accident, T-Boned (on the drivers side) the track exit wall and died instantly. I'm sure waivers were flying in abundance before the event..... After talking to him again about that incident he said nothign came of it. No claim was paid. One point he made was that you assume the risks involved and it is your responsibility to not participate if you see something that may cause you harm.

As we talked he pretty much laid it down, you sign that waiver, you most likely will not have any action against the organization or the track. Unless someone did it intentionally to cause something and it is still a tough case to prove to hold the track and/or organizers responsible. It is also very dependant on what state you are in.

-JD-

[Despr8dave]

To my family's dismay and now my wallet, I dropped out of "prelaw" over thirty years ago,so I am no authority about the law, but it irritates me to no end to hear about lawsuits in a sport I so love and understand the dangers of at any level. I still do not understand why Mark Donahue's family sued Goodyear and everyone else they could, why Porsche has been sued so many times by widows of turbo driving idiots who crash at high speeds on the streets, or why one half the cost of a Cessna Cub goes to insurance. A society of lawsuits. The RV industry has it's share too, and no, there are no "automatic pilot controls" on RV's. I hope if I ever have a problem at or on the track, it can be solved there or at least understood as a "racing" incedent. There are some among us who should not be out there, just a matter of time I'd guess.

[mgyip]

What was that famous Shakespearian quote - "First we kill all the lawyers"...

[tcpip]

Thanks for the replies. We did seem to get a bit off track though. The thread has moved towards talking about the legal issues for the tracks and clubs. I certainly appreciate the info, but I'm mostly wondering about a driver's legal woes. What has been said was pretty much what I thought. In practice, stuff happens and everyone accepts that. Only in extreme cases might someone have to defend themselves in court with regards to neglegence or actually intend to harm or damage. Is that pretty much it?

[joeg]

The actual rule is anyone can sue you for anything at anytime. That's a fact of life which is not in the GCR.

While such person would not be long for SCCA racing, he/she (or it--the estate) can cause a lot of grief to a defendant--even with Club insurance as a defense fall back.

Everyone's threshold of risk is different, so take what you will from the comments from the repliers and plan accordingly.

Good Luck!

[dickita15]

Jon,
don't worry about it. could it happen? sure. Has it happened? not that I know of.

you are more likely to get sued for an incident while towing to the track.

[dyoungre]

To add to Dick's comment:
Most people sue someone because they have something (usually financial) to gain. If you start racing, you'll no longer have very deep pockets, and therefore, will be LESS likely to be sued!

[bldn10]

"The actual rule is anyone can sue you for anything at anytime. "

My first semester in law school I had a Civil Procedure prof who would pose hypothetical situations and entice students to ask if the victim could sue. (At that point the students knew little more than the average person about the law.) He would make the above point in a manner designed to stick w/ you, which it did: "You can sue the Pope for bastardy if you'll pay the cost bill."

[OTLimit]

And then, of course, we have a lawyer who races a prod car who insists on threatening everyone who even insinuates that he (or anyone around him) is a bad driver.

[mgyip]

Originally posted by OTLimit@Sep 25 2005, 03:54 PM
And then, of course, we have a lawyer who races a prod car who insists on threatening everyone who even insinuates that he (or anyone around him) is a bad driver.

61148


Just get all of your fellow competitors to wear the same shirt that reads "First we kill all the lawyers". Then get the Stewards to show him the error of his ways...

It amazes me that some people are so craniaum-rectal impacted that they can't accept the fact that they aren't God's Gift to racing cars. :bash_1_: I'd think that even the World Champions of their respective classes have their mentors who provide them with advice and pointers.