Pablo had a bad day

[Knestis]

I already told Greg A. and Phil P., since they were going to run with us at the VIR enduro, but I rolled the Golf today on a stage of the Rally Tennessee. It looks like we'll rebuild with the new shell but it's a big bummer for all involved. Cameron looked like a kid with a broken toy at Christmas...

It was a classic case of a little error with big consequences. We had some people who know about crashing rally cars look at it and it increasingly looks like gravel on the outside of the exit of a fast corner (like 85ish) led to oversteer, which hooked the right rear in the ditch (or at the edge of, probably) and tripped Pablo into a diagonal kind of roll. He bounced off of the co-driver's roof edge, mostly toward the rear, then valuted onto the driver's side nose and top of the A-pillar.

Chris Schimmel's cage didn't budge and that vertical element that we put in the door took the full load above me in compression. I had an almost gentle trip, with not so much as a bruise - thanks winged Recaro, Isaac, and full-face helmet (to keep the glass out of my face, thank you). The Isaac pins slowed my exit by about a second. I don't even remember pulling them.

One lesson - if your window nets mount between the cage and roof or pillars, it is possible for them to be crushed in a rollover, making it hard to releast them. Take a look at yours, since this is probably a bigger problem in IT cars than in other classes, where cages can be tied to the pillars.

K

[zracre]

Ouch!! hope Pablo's spirit lives on in another car...

[Bill Miller]

Damn Kirk, sorry to hear that. Hope you and your co-driver are ok!!!

[JOESELLSVW]

Well it's official Kirk, you are now a member of the "I rolled my GTI Club" Founded by Bill Miller, later I joined in '03. Bill and I found our fame in T3 at Summit. Glad to hear your ok. Will you be running OBD1 or 2 in the new car? Joe

[Bildon]

Shi! :angry:
Glad to hear your car held up to the damage and that you're OK. I'll be talking to you...


Originally posted by JOESELLSVW@Sep 5 2005, 10:21 AM
a member of the "I rolled my GTI Club"
... Guilty here, rolled one over 5 times :119: according to the spectators....

[Greg Amy]

Does a Rabbit GTi count? If so, I'm there. Hallet's Turn One in 1986...at an SCCA driver's school...

I'm very disappointed that we won't be able to defend our VIR 13 Hour win, but "that's racing"... - GA

[zracre]

Same here 83 GTI Road Atlanta turn 3 5 times end over end...oops!!!

[JOESELLSVW]

Wow, a who's who of IT.COM's VW crowd. I guess it's really just a rite of passage. Dave Parker's GTI got rolled in T6 of all places at Summit. Maybe we need sew on patches to identify ourselves "Shiny Side up GTI club".... to describe my roll, it was very loud, then quiet, loud, then quiet, loud again and then quiet. I rolled three times. Best of all I raced the car two weeks later at Pocono! I had just painted it before the roll over and turned my best ever time at Summit! I just sold that car and it's now doing hillclimbs! Joe

[VW16VRacer]

Damm Kirk sorry to here this, one thing I would like to know how are you feeling days after the roll over. Do you think the H&N products did there part in curbing that sore feeling days after a impact.

Gregg Baker if you have any info on the later effects of wearing , or not wearing a H&N device that would be good information for others to consider investing in a product that not only will save your life in a head on inpact but lessen the effects in a not so severe impact.

Winter is the best time to build the other shell and the Crud Thug is still up to making the trip if you need it...

Jon

[lateapex911]

Sorry to hear that Kirk.

Good info on the net, and glad to hear injuries were limited to mental one.

(A side note on the neck thing...I took a ride into the Armco at Watkins Glen a few weeks ago, and broke a few ribs, bruised the odd internal organ, but remember no neck pain.)

I might need to check the fit of my seat I guess....

[JeffYoung]

Damn Kirk, sorry to hear that man. Anything I can do to help -- I'll spend a day with you pulling parts of Pablo in his memory......

Will miss you at the 13 hr.

[Knestis]

Thanks for the kind words, everybody.

I don't know if the Isaac played any role in my not feeling any after effects of the roll. H&N systems really come into their won where big decelerations are involved and frankly, a roll like we had is really gentle by comparison.

I canNOT emphasize how much faith I put in my seat in this situation. (Sorry, by the way Jake.) I felt the wings keeping my noggin between them and, with my belts really tight like I always run them, I was almost comfortable going over.

Ironically, a primary reason that we were thinking about building a car is that, even though it is really well designed and hellacious stout, it didn't fit very well after we took out the interior: Now we NEED a new shell because it wasn't optimal.

This was a strategic flaw in my SSC-to-ITB plan and because there was a gap of an inch or more in places, the shell deformed more than it would have, had the cage been as tight as Competition Cages typically builds them. Chris was actually a little embarrased about how it looked, after we stripped the car but now the point is moot - the next cage is going to be a show-stopper, applying what we learned from this design but in smaller diameter tubing and really fit into the crevices.

Stay tuned...

K

[mgyip]

Kirk,

Sorry to hear about your rollover - glad to know you and your co-driver were unhurt however.

The General Li took a good shot today at the MARRS races at Slummit Point today, precipitated by (of all things) another VW in turn 4. Hit the tire wall between 4 and 5 on drivers' right with the drivers' side of the car. Nothing too dramatic, the nose is pushed left about 1 1/2 feet and it's up on the left side abou 8 inches but it still rolls but doesn't run - can't quite figure out why yet. From what I hear, the impact was somewhat dramatic - moved a 5 foot boulder and several sections of tirewall, spraying spectators with grass, dirt and dirty, mouldy water :119:

Spoke with the driver of the car that hit me - we were on the first lap and he had a car hard on his tail. Entering 4, he was barely alongside on drivers' right when I started to move towards the apex. B/c of the car behind him, he didn't want to lift or brake which forced his LF tire into the right quarter of my car, just behind the door. The first bump wasn't so bad but the second one was the coup de grace. The other driver felt rather bad about the incident - so much so that he apparently pulled in early and didn't finish the race. We talked a bit and think that it's a racing incident - however the other driver is a helluva good sport (and also a neighbor). His parting words were "When you start fixing the car, call me - I'll be there to help". :023:

[JLawton]

:(

Typical racer, finding an excuse to build another car........ Glad every one is OK!


Matt,
Sorry to hear of your "issue". Hope you're back soon!!

[Dave Zaslow]

Kirk,

Never rolled the Datsun 510 rallying, but I certainly had an entertaining barrel roll at Lime Rock in the GTI.

Having mostly finished the OBD1 A3, if there's anything I can do from here please let me know.

Dave Z

[Bill Miller]

Yeah Joe, I hardly 'founded' that club! It is kinda interesting to see how many VW drivers have been 'over' in them though! :rolleyes:

[itbgti]

I never knew there was the GTI Rollover Club (GRC) :)

I too am a proud member, April 2004, NHIS, turn 10, flipped five times, going OVER the tire wall upside down, with Raymond Blethen (from his account) having to drive under me.

Should we start giving awards?

[zracre]

I am actually still trying to find aftermath pics of my rollover...1997 ARRC test day there were many people taking pics of what was left...it was red yellow and black... i never took any myself but i saw many cameras and the usual onlookers ariving at the pits when the carcass arrived...:blink:

[philstireservice]

Originally posted by itbgti@Sep 6 2005, 08:51 AM
I never knew there was the GTI Rollover Club (GRC) :)


Let's not forget Peter Keane's infamous VW rollover in turn one at Limerock..........the black VW with the lightning bolt on the hood......



Sorry Kirk about Pablo..........I will miss another stellar ride in such a well prepared race car.........but !!! there will be a new one........excellent :happy204:

[Fastfred92]

I got over on one side back in the 80's in a 83 GTI at Sebring, not sure if this counts but it is as close as i care to go... sorry to hear about Pablo, I feel a certain kinship to him but glad everybody is ok........ Kirk, I will try to keep the three legged club going at the SIC and Gobblings Go

[evanwebb]

Hey Kirk, sorry to hear it. The new GTi will be better and faster I'm sure but it's a big bummer hearing that such a nice looking car is messed up. Makes my incident last weekend seem minor by comparison... Good luck!

[dave parker]

Kirk
I am sorry to hear about your misfortune, I am glad that both occupants were OK.
I am sure that you will come back with a better car soon.

Joe
Thanks for remembering "Baby" and her demise in T6 two years ago this November at Summit Point. I am somewhat glad that it was my enduro co-driver, Jon Winter, at the wheel when the car flipped. He had just turned the two fastest laps the car had EVER turned before the roll. I wonder if there is any correlation there? Here are some pics of the event. www.pbase.com/brettwp/rollover_x_three_and_a_half

To All,

I too am a member of the GRC (GTI Rollover Club) although my entry into that elite group of people was on purpose. I participated in and WON the Rollover Contest at this years NASA HyperFest at Summit Point. I rolled the purpose built (for rolling over) Rabbit GTI 2 1/4 times off of the short ramp. There were several quotable quotes from that adventure to include:

" I won the contest. Where is my five hundred dollars?" me to Chris Cobetto

" I would much rather roll someoneelse's car on purpose than mine by accident." me to Mark Baracka the owner of the rollover car

"Could I have another gin and tonic please?" me to the EMS people as I climbed out of the car. They laughed and said "Sure".

cheers
"dangerous" dave parker
wdcr ITC #97

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Knestis@Sep 5 2005, 07:58 PM

...I don't know if the Isaac played any role in my not feeling any after effects of the roll. H&N systems really come into their won where big decelerations are involved and frankly, a roll like we had is really gentle by comparison.

I canNOT emphasize how much faith I put in my seat in this situation. (Sorry, by the way Jake.) I felt the wings keeping my noggin between them and, with my belts really tight like I always run them, I was almost comfortable going over....

K

59662


And from another poster, "Gregg Baker if you have any info on the later effects of wearing , or not wearing a H&N device that would be good information for others to consider..."

First, when I saw the thread title a few days ago I figured Kirk was making a tongue-in-cheek comment about Juan Pablo Montoya's recent F1 activity, so I skipped it.

Second, we've been spending a lot of time lately reviewing test data where the impacts are as high as 100Gs. We're talking crash sled impacts so violent that the dummy's arms are ripped from the sockets, so if my comments on rollovers sound flippant, please keep things in perspective.

As Kirk noted, a rollover with a good safety package can be no worse than a theme park ride on steroids. It may scare the hell out of you, but a rollover alone will seldom produce a head and neck injury--cage and seat being adequate.

The problems arise when there is a severe frontal or lateral component involved. The use of head and neck restraints, Isaac or otherwise, have been shown to provide significant protection in frontal impacts. Lateral impacts are another matter.

An Isaac system offers some protection in a lateral impact because one damper works in tension while the other works in compression. It ain't rocket surgery. How much is difficult to quantify because, unlike frontal impacts which can easily be tested on a crash sled, lateral impacts are dependent on seat and harness configurations. Nevertheless, we constantly receive reports from Isaac users about how much "support" they feel in corners, and how they have tossed their horse collars. Other posters here (Vaughan Scott, Adam Richman, et al) have noted severe lateral crashes with their Isaac systems with no head or neck injury.

This is all anecdotal, of course. Stay tuned for some real science.

Sounds like you guys need silver, gold and platinum status in your rollover club memberships. :)

[Eric Parham]

Kirk, sorry to hear that.

I'm not quite eligible for the "GRC" but my co-driver beat me to it. It was a fresh GTI ice racer that we put together a few years ago, first AMEC event of the season. He rolled in first turn traffic but didn't even know it until I showed him the roof damage and the video. All he said was "that 1st lap white-out felt a little bumpy" before the revelation. I think it's an extreme credit to the drivers out there next to him that the car showed no external damage other than the roof!

He was not wearing my Isaac, but was not harmed either.

[Knestis]

Here we go again...

http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/images/mk3.2/stripint.jpg

http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/images/mk3.2/stripfront.jpg

Cage construction starts this week.

http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/build4.php

K

[zracre]

Its a beautiful thing!! What do ya think the time frame for your build is?

[joeg]

Why not post some images of the wrecked car?

[JOESELLSVW]

If the first car was Pablo, what's this car's name?

[Racerlinn]

Maybe we can have a contest and get Baker to donate an Issac! :023:

[Knestis]

Originally posted by joeg@Sep 20 2005, 11:10 AM
Why not post some images of the wrecked car?

60666


It just doesn't do anyone any good. I've already shared what we learned from the crash, from a safety standpoint, and pictures of smashed glass and bent sheetmetal just send the wrong message. I'd also prefer that the permanent record show Pablo in better days.

That's just me, though. Crash your car and post all of the pics you want. :P


If the first car was Pablo, what's this car's name?

It varies right now, from Pablito (son of Pablo) to the Bionic Pablo - "We can rebuild him..." It bears on what one considers the "car" part of a race car. It will have a new shell (and therefore a new VIN, so we don't break any ITCS or NC state rules) but to my mind, a shell is just another "part." (That's my rally experience talking there, wherein I understand shells to be not only parts but CONSUMMABLE parts.) :) There's NO question that Pablo's soul will live on, as will his grill, suspension and struts (we hope), safety gear, brakes, steering gear, and a bunch of other low-mileage parts that are AOK after the whack.

We are also doing an engine build this winter and, while we want to be done well in advance of it, we'll be ready for early spring fun - like February.

K

[Ralf]

Too bad about the car, but at least Pablo will live on in print. See page 43 of GRM Nov edition.

[Knestis]

Sure enough! That was a high point this season, winning ITB at the Summit 12 Hours. I think that's Phil Phillips (of www.philstireservice.com fame) at the wheel, looking at the iridium visor.

Had another conference yesterday with Chris Schimmel at Competition Cages and the new unit is going to be a real showpiece. We'll be 2006 doorbar legal, take advantage of thinner wall tube for secondary triangulation, and it's gonna be tiiiiiieeght, Dawg.

K