"REM Polishing and Cryo Treating Gears

[RacerBowie]

This topic got brought up on another board. I did a little reading, and now I am even more confused....so I bring it here for the Rules Nerds!

The ITCS doesn't seem to mention anything at all about stuff like this. The only relevant stuff I can find is:


17.1.4.D.4
a "Any final drive ratio is permitted provided it fits the stock differential/transaxle housing without modification to the housing."
b "Any limited slip or locked differential is permitted."

c "No alteration to the stock transmission gear ratios for the make, model, type, and engine size of automobile is allowed."

I "think" this means one could do any of this to a final drive, as "Any final drive ratio is permitted". I don't think you could do this to the actual gears in the transmission, though. ????

Also of interest is the following:


17.1.4.D.1.q "The application and/or use of any painting, coating, plating, or impregnating substance (ie:anti-friction, thermal barrier, oil shedding coatings, chrome, anodizing, etc.) to any internal engine surface, including intake manifold internal surface, is prohibited."

While this doesn't specifically say you can't do stuff like cryo and shotpeening, I think it brings it into the "If it doesn't say you can, you can't" category, at least when you are dealing with engine internals.

"Rules Nerd" interpretations would be very welcome here.

Bowie
ITA Miata

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by RacerBowie@Aug 24 2005, 06:31 PM
This topic got brought up on another board. I did a little reading, and now I am even more confused....so I bring it here for the Rules Nerds!

The ITCS doesn't seem to mention anything at all about stuff like this. The only relevant stuff I can find is:
I "think" this means one could do any of this to a final drive, as "Any final drive ratio is permitted". I don't think you could do this to the actual gears in the transmission, though. ????

Also of interest is the following:
While this doesn't specifically say you can't do stuff like cryo and shotpeening, I think it brings it into the "If it doesn't say you can, you can't" category, at least when you are dealing with engine internals.

"Rules Nerd" interpretations would be very welcome here.

Bowie
ITA Miata

58959


Unless you left the receipts in the car, how would they ever know?
:ph34r:

And I'd like for an impound tech crew to detect a thermal barrier coating on a valve or piston top. So it's really up to your conscience with regards to this stuff. :014:

That's one of the things I like about prod...you can do these "racecar technology" things to your car and not feel guilty. And you surely KNOW this stuff is going in IT cars, whether or not people admit to it. :018:

MC

[joeg]

Your ring and pinion (transaxle or transmission) is not an engine.

I would say any final ratio means any ring and pinion that works with your stock gears inside your unmodified tranny box--including a cryo/ micro polished treated, lightened ring and pinion.

Titanium anyone?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Transmission Gears - NO.

ITCS D.4.c

"No alteration to the stock transmission gear ratios for the for the make, model, type, and engine size of automobile is allowed."



Cryo Treatment

GCR 17.37

"Cryogenic treatment of components is allowed unless specifically prohibited in the category or class preparation rules."

I see nothing in the ITCS that specifically prohibits cryo treatment to anything but the brake rotors (ITCS D.6.b ) and internal engine components (ITCS D.1.q).

AB

[RacerBowie]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Aug 24 2005, 03:03 PM
Transmission Gears - NO.

ITCS D.4.c

"No alteration to the stock transmission gear ratios for the for the make, model, type, and engine size of automobile is allowed."
Cryo Treatment

GCR 17.37

"Cryogenic treatment of components is allowed unless specifically prohibited in the category or class preparation rules."

I see nothing in the ITCS that specifically prohibits cryo treatment to anything but the brake rotors (ITCS D.6.b ) and internal engine components (ITCS D.1.q).

AB

58963



That is kinda what I was thinking, with the addition of GCR 17.37, which I didn't even think about.

[zracre]

I dont see it specifically prohibited in the transmission wording....although how much benefit would you get??? It seems like alot of work for little gain in our world of semi stock racecars...maybe just reliability???

[mustanghammer]

Originally posted by zracre@Aug 24 2005, 08:09 PM
I dont see it specifically prohibited in the transmission wording....although how much benefit would you get??? It seems like alot of work for little gain in our world of semi stock racecars...maybe just reliability???

58968



I agree. REM finishing, polishing, deburing, Cryo treating etc isn't the same as a change in gear ratio. Looks legal to me as written now.

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by zracre@Aug 24 2005, 04:09 PM
I dont see it specifically prohibited in the transmission wording....although how much benefit would you get??? It seems like alot of work for little gain in our world of semi stock racecars...maybe just reliability???

58968
I'm no material scientist, but I do know from aerospace exposure that cryo is used to remove any prestressing that may be induced into a part during manufacturing. Performance should be unchanged, but it will be more dimensionally stable and less prone to failure.

[RacerBowie]

Originally posted by mustanghammer@Aug 24 2005, 04:39 PM
I agree. REM finishing, polishing, deburing, Cryo treating etc isn't the same as a change in gear ratio. Looks legal to me as written now.

58969


I would like to follow this line of reasoning a bit further. As I am reading the rules (today, it might be different tomorrow) I see it this way too. It doesn't alter the "ratios" at all, but it may change the interaction of the gears. (specifically referring to the reduction in friction claimed of REM polishing.)

As the rule looks, it seems that cryo treating would be legal, but REM polishing is in the grey.

More thoughts?

Bowie

[SilverHorseRacing]

Let me start by disclaiming that I have not used any of these treatments, and I feel that at our level in IT, it would be wasted money, as there are a lot easier ways to make power, the best being using your right pedal more...Now in SM or SRF, etc...

What is the difference between a well-polished piece and a used piece that has been well-cared for? Really, you're going to have no sharp edges, smooth surface, a micropolish on the face due to micron-sized shavings in the clean fluid (you do change the fluid, right?)...

I guess what I'm getting at is that you wouldn't really be able to tell a difference in performance, you'd just be able to have that same level of smooth operation (ie lower friction) a lot sooner in the part's service life.

Now as to TBC's, I see the advantage, but as Mark said, I would find it surprising that it could be detected in the field if done properly. Not that I'm advocating their use, just saying it isn't something clearly visible like a bore/stroke check.

As to cryo treatment... I haven't tried it, but I look at that as improving the stock part, which could save money, and not change the power advantage one way or another. Perfect example is those cracked rotors of mine. We run them with hairline cracks, although I'm not a big fan of it. What performance adantage is gained by cryo? None. So what is gained? Less money having to be spent long term replacing rotors... so that's somewhere I think the rule should be re-visited. The cost of cryo treatment is a lot lower than rotors for many of us, and if it doubles their useful life, it would be worth it.

[Bildon]

"can't do stuff like cryo and shotpeening "

How about stress relieving ? :blink:
Can I get my ball-peen out and start whacking away at everything and everyone :bash_1_: ... or is that illegal ? :D