Spitballing - alternatives to doubles

[ulfelder]

At last night's Club Racing meeting, somebody wondered aloud if NER should continue to run two doubles per year at NHIS. Does this provide the best bang for our buck, or would it be cool to try something different - as long as we continued to enjoy mucho track time? Ideas that came up included:

A. Qualify for a qualifying race Sat AM, then run a qualifying race Sat PM, setting the field for Sunday's race. Practice Sunday AM, then run the points-paying race in the PM. (We used to do this once a year but now run the Enduro weekend instead.)

B. Practice/qual Sat, then run a relatively long race (30 laps? 35?) on Sunday.

Any other thoughts? Do people prefer doubles? (I do, personally.) Just seeking some interesting ideas.

Steve U
05 ITS

[Greg Amy]

Steve, for me, the goal is "competition time", not just "track time". The more time I'm out there competing against my peers, the better. The 'ultimate' weekend for me would be to have all sessions competition; the initial session order determined by random number generation, and all subsequent sessions determined by prior sessions' finishing order. If I wanted "track time" per se, I can get a better value versus SCCA by sticking to various HPDEs and track test sessions.

So, it should come as no surprise that I really like doubles. I find two-day single-race events to be boooooring. The first day's resources are spent waiting around to go practice (yawn), the second day's waiting around to go race. Once.

In fact, how about this idea: one 1-hour enduro per day, no practice and qualifying. Starting position determined by random number. Oh yeah, it's on! - GA

[gran racing]

I like Greg's first idea! Now that would be fun. Practice sessions are a waste of what could be racing time. The same holds true when there is a two day at LRP - practice and qual. on Friday. I always feel like it is a waste of a day. At NHIS you're not restricted from racing on both days; take advantage of it.

[Jake]

I agree 100% - more racing time/less qualifying and practice time.

In fact, I'd love the LRP FRI/SAT weekend turn into two shorter races on SAT. Like Greg said, we can have the first race finishing position qualfiy us for the second race. If we did that, I might just blow of Friday and work from the back to get a good qualifyer for race two!

FWIW, I did only one NHIS double this year, and if it was only one race, I don't think I would have gone.

[philstireservice]

I believe the DC region does it like Greg mentioned. They randomly grid you on Sat AM ...usually faster classes to the front.....then the times from that session grid you for the second session in the PM on sat. and then the best of the two sessions grid you for the race on Sunday.....I think it worrks rather well and makes it competitive all weekend....

[Bill Miller]

Phil,

Unless things have changed, there is no grid order for the Sat. qualifying sessions. It's who gets there when. You roll to the false grid, and you get the next open slot.

[RSTPerformance]

I think that Lime Rock used to be:

Friday:
Session 1: Practice/Qualifying
Session 2: 15 (?) Lap Qualifying Race (Points for NER only)

Saturday:
Session 1: 10 minute Warm ups (Open wheel Closed wheel)
Session 2: 20 (?) Lap Race (Points for NER and NARRC)


I like that format a lot and prefer it, as compaired to the way Doubles are handled now. Warmups rather than qualifying on the second day allows for more time to be spent having longer races, and you can actually "test" something in that 10 minutes rather than depend on it for qualifying. I see no reason to have two totally seperate qualifying session even when running different configurations... With exception to the spec classes most cars will still grid in similar positions as they did the first day in the first qualifying... and hey if you use the first race as qualifying for the second days race that gives even more value to winning in the prior event!!! Heck lets get rid of qualifyijng all together and grid based on points!!!

Another cooncept might be to run as the europeans do.. don't they have back to back races with one being 10 laps and the second being 20 laps and more points value for the second race or somthing like that??? I can't remember, but it is another idea to ponder...

At any rate, I think that changing the format would not be a bad thing and could be used to really get people more excited about overall points and finishing well...

Raymond "man I don't have any points, looks like I am starting from the back" Blethen

[RSTPerformance]

ok here is my concept:

Day 1:

Session 1: 10 Lap Qualifying Race (Grid based on season NER points, Points awarded for NER only)
Session 2: 20 Lap Race (Grid based on Session 1 times, Points awarded for NER and NARRC)
Session 3: Beer Tent (Garage 1) Party

Day 2:

Session 4: 10 minute Warm ups (Open wheel Clesed Wheel)

Session 5: 30 Lap race (Grid based on Session 2 finishing position, Double Points awarded for NER and regular points awarded for NARRC

__________________________________________________ ____________________

This is a "Fair" concept as people just compeating for NARRC points are not "hurt" as the first session is a "Time based" qualifying for session # 2 (first NARRC race).

It looks complicated but in actuality the only people with more work is the NER pointskeeper and grid, the NARRC points are still the same as it is a double NARRC as normal...

Raymond

[mlytle]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Aug 21 2005, 03:54 PM
Phil,

Unless things have changed, there is no grid order for the Sat. qualifying sessions. It's who gets there when. You roll to the false grid, and you get the next open slot.

58739


things have changed bill. they haven't done it the first come first served way since i started racing 4 years ago...

marrs events..class grids for the first qual session are done however the classes want. some like random, some do it by fast lap of the year, some do it by season points. in all cases you are assigned a grid position.

second qual session is gridded by lap times from the first session.

marshall
wdcr its drivers rep

[itbgti]

Derek/Colin/Rob,

Any thoughts on this subject? I know I have had conversations in the past with you all about how much track time you get (ie races) at your home track, so maybe you can chime in with an example schedule.

How about THIS!!!!!!:

Fri/Sat/Sun at NHIS

Friday: first half of day open practice (big bore, small bore, open wheel)
Second half of day 30 mins qualifying sessions

Saturday: TWO RACES

Sunday: TWO RACES

Starting order for the races intially determined by qualifying run, then by previous race finishing order


Benefits: You can charge two fees: ~$360 for people doing all three days, or the standard $225 or so for the two days.....People do not have to do all three, only downside is for race #1, they will start farther back where they should have qualified
FOUR RACES!!! that would be crazy and hopefully a lot of fun

Comments?

[7racing]

When we did some of these things in the past, I loved them. I like the longer races and have a great time in them.

However, outside of the IT/SM crowd, I don't think the longer races are welcomed as much. Not that they don't want the track time, but their cars are not built for it.

Hell, I like the qualifying races we used to do (I remember a LRP event with a qual race Sat morning and a Regional race Sat afternoon. That rocked). So, I'm all for it! :happy204:

Jeremy

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by itbgti@Aug 22 2005, 06:43 AM

How about THIS!!!!!!:

Fri/Sat/Sun at NHIS

Friday: first half of day open practice (big bore, small bore, open wheel)
Second half of day 30 mins qualifying sessions

Saturday: TWO RACES

Sunday: TWO RACES

Starting order for the races intially determined by qualifying run, then by previous race finishing order

Comments?

58771


That would be SICK! I vote for that. Question for Dick/Brian - could we get 4 sanction numbers? If you can, then TONS of people would come from all over to satisfy drivers requirments in one weekend!!!!

:happy204:

AB

[ulfelder]

Alan's Fri/Sat/Sun idea is cool, but it would appear to put a very heavy burden on volunteers.

As a 2-day alternative, how about a practice/qual on Sat AM that sets the field for 3 (count 'em!) races - one Sat PM, then two on Sunday? (As an alternative, the finishing order for each race could establish the starting order of the next race.)

One other thing: For me, a 20-lap race is plenty, thank you; a 30-lapper would feel like drudgery. If the goal is track time, I would far prefer two 15-lappers over a 30. Anybody else feel this way?

Steve U

[itbgti]

Steve U,

Your idea is my second favorite (mine is obviously first) :D



I liked the idea of making this one HUGE weekend....the only one for the year for many people. I believe that turnouts would be great (including people from other regions).

Keep the ideas coming, this is a great thread.

Also (this is more a general comment)...I believe "warm-ups" should be more strict. At the latest LRP event, everyone and their aunt went out for the warm-up (I did not as everything was ok on my car). I think for certain events these should be hardship type practices, especially at a place like LRP where we are on the clock.

[dazzlesa]

how about half the run groups qualify in the am and race in the pm. the other half does the same the next day. probably not fair to the volenteers but one less day away from home for the racers.
the 2 races on sat and sun sound great also.

[philstireservice]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Aug 21 2005, 11:54 AM
Phil,

Unless things have changed, there is no grid order for the Sat. qualifying sessions. It's who gets there when. You roll to the false grid, and you get the next open slot.

58739




Well Bill things have changed ....at least down at Summit with the DC....last race they gridded us even in the 1st practice/qualifying session..... :happy204:

[mgyip]

Originally posted by philstireservice@Aug 22 2005, 03:01 PM
at least down at Summit with the DC....last race they gridded us even in the 1st practice/qualifying session...

The DC Region started gridding the first Qualifying sessions a few years ago to avoid the headaches of folks pre-gridding on the paddock roads or racing down grid after the cars started going out in an effort to be first or last out. Depending on the venue and the classes involved, the grid can be a random draw, a grid by average lap times or season points standings. This system has worked fairly well thus far b/c it allows the faster cars to go out with their usual pack rather than having a chance of getting stuck behind the slowest AND widest car in the group.

[16v]

man.. a four race weekend would mean I have to buy a lot more CF cards!

sounds good to me :023:

[Jake]

Guys - this REALLY makes sense. MORE RACES, less practice/qualfiying. Heck - most people are racing during the qual/practice sessions anyway! Two races on a Saturday at LRP makes $275 a lot more palatable.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Jake@Aug 22 2005, 06:01 PM
Guys - this REALLY makes sense. MORE RACES, less practice/qualfiying. Heck - most people are racing during the qual/practice sessions anyway! Two races on a Saturday at LRP makes $275 a lot more palatable.

58848


It does Jake...and I hope it can be done at LRP but I am thinking this thread applies primarily to NHIS and the two Double weekends that are run up there each year...this year the September "Cheap Date" event is $200 for the weekend!

AB

[16v]

Alan~

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