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Red Dawg Riddley
06-02-2003, 05:22 PM
where's the best place to buy?

jericker
06-02-2003, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Red Dawg Riddley:
where's the best place to buy?

Carbotech Engineering in Florida www.carbotecheng.com (http://www.carbotecheng.com). They can make anything you want for any car. Check out Larry's Panther Plus compound as well, you'll like it.

Chris Sawatsky
06-02-2003, 09:32 PM
there's a neon racing place that advertises here... don't remember the name. They have the best price. Anyone remember the name of it?

Speed Raycer
06-02-2003, 10:43 PM
Hey Dawg! Check out our links page. The "neon place" is linked on there. They've got great prices on RX7 pads.

www.pfmracing.com/links.html (http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/rudder_racing/Links.html)

[This message has been edited by Speed Raycer (edited June 02, 2003).]

Dave Burchfield
06-03-2003, 05:58 AM
You might try www.mojoracing.com (http://www.mojoracing.com)

They are IT racers for a long time in CenDiv, are giving away a garage at Mid-Ohio at the July 5/6 race, and have great prices. I got a set of Hawk Blues from them this year.

db

Doodson
06-13-2003, 02:24 PM
Hawk pads suck!
Talk to larry at CARBOTECH instead

Doodson

Tom Blaney
06-13-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Doodson:
Hawk pads suck!
Talk to larry at CARBOTECH instead

Doodson

Gee:

I tried both on my 2 CRX's and I think the Carbotechs really suck! and the Hawk Blues rule!



[This message has been edited by Tom Blaney (edited June 13, 2003).]

Bill Miller
06-13-2003, 06:50 PM
Doodson,

I've never used the Carbotech pads, but I can assure you, Hawk Blues most certainly do not suck. Mintex, now that's a different story!

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608

Chris Wire
06-13-2003, 11:59 PM
Doodson,

The first hurdle one must clear when buying from Carbotech is dealing with Larry in the first place.

The second issue is that on virtually every car I have seen which is covered by both Hawk and Carbotech, the Hawk brakes were superior. The vast majority of cars I know of in CFR are running Hawk Brakes. More specifically, the front running cars are. I know because I used to sell to many of them. And got plenty of feedback on the competition as well.

Good luck with Larry.

------------------
Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

powerslide91
06-14-2003, 08:58 PM
Anyone have a comparision between the Hawk's and Porterfield R-4's? I am about to install my 3rd set of front Porterfields this year on my '72 240Z. I don't know if that is typical or not? They seem to work good, but I don't know if the comsumption rate is typical or out of wack.

Thanks,
Jeff

x-ring
06-15-2003, 12:50 AM
I don't know anything about the R-4s Jeff, I've never tried them on my Z, a '76 280. When I bought the car the PO told me he had just installed fresh Metal Master's, which looked new to me too.

Well, now I know why they were new, I burned them all the way down to the backing plates in one weekend. I then switched to Hawk Blue's (best price from StrictlyZ) and generally get four or five weekends on a set. The roters will usually last through two sets of pads, if you can get your machinist to do a minimum cut (.010") when required, generally half way through the pad life.

Ty

Edwin Robinson
06-18-2003, 08:14 PM
I won't put in any shameless plugs- BUT
On the topic of the Hawk Blues- We have routinely run 12 Hour races on one set of these pads- and we just did it again at Summit. For those that prefer a more progressive initial bite - with what seems to me to be less rotor wear and higher coefficient of friction than the Blue- try the Hawk HT10. They stop as well as the Blues- probably better. Pad life seems to be ~slightly~ less. At the Homestead 12 hour- we got 7 hours out of the HT10's - but I think some drivers were 'overcooking' it a little for a 12 hour race. Plus- that track seems to have more heavy braking zones than most others.

After 5 years running the Blue 9012- the HT10 is now the mainstay for us for any Sprint race s and longer races up to 6 hours in length.

~Edwin.
http://www.RaceShopper.com

fiestadude
06-19-2003, 10:18 AM
I have always used the Hawk Blues for my ITC Ford Fiesta. sadly, even Larry @ Carbotech can no longer provide me with them. The backing plates are one issue, but apparently, Hawk has discontinued the "apply our compound" program, or so I was told. I was in dire need of another set, so I putchased the stout Carbotech brand from Larry. I have not put them on the car yet, but he told me they are very comparable to the Hawk Blues.

I will let you know how it turns out.



------------------
JJ
#62 ITC

joeg
06-19-2003, 10:55 AM
Same here. I have enough in BLUE for the balance of the season but bought some of his Panthers.

It's a real shame, because the Blues are the best.

Wreckerboy
06-19-2003, 11:43 AM
Another good source for the Hawks -
http://www.cvproducts.com/ or 1-800-448-1223. They are a roundy round place that is looking to expand into the road race market. Ask for Daniel, tell him I sent you, and when he stops laughing he'll set you up nicely!

Chris Wire
06-19-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by fiestadude:
sadly, even Larry @ Carbotech can no longer provide me with them. The backing plates are one issue, but apparently, Hawk has discontinued the "apply our compound" program, or so I was told. I was in dire need of another set, so I putchased the stout Carbotech brand from Larry.

Sounds like that information may have been a bit biased. Hawk removed Carbotech from the "custom pad" program they had, but last I knew they had Porterfield Racing doing it for them instead. You may want to contact them instead.

www.porterfield-brakes.com (http://www.porterfield-brakes.com)

Kinda explains how you ended up with Carbotech pads. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/rolleyes.gif

See additional comment above. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif



------------------
Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

sgallimo
06-19-2003, 06:01 PM
I too am trying to figure out what pads to use. Last year I did 3 sprint races and 3 enduros at VIR and 1 sprint race and 1 enduro at Lowes on a single set of Carbotech Panther Plus pads - yup it never occurred to me to use different compounds for sprints vs enduros. This year I used up a new set at the first SARRC/ECR race at VIR. Granted that I'm probably pushing harder this year than last, it really seems like something changed in the pads. For one thing they were noticable thinner than last years set.

For the May double SARRC/MARRS at VIR, I waited too late to get another set of pads from Carbotech so I ordered 2 sets or R-4Es from Porterfield on the promise that they would get them to me in time. They didn't make it so I went with a set of Metal Masters for the Friday qualifying and they were terrible. The Porterfields showed up that evening so I was able to use them for the two SARRC/MARRS races. They worked very well and I only used a couple hundredths of pad during the two races. So I used them this past weekend at the 8 hour VIR race. We didn't check the pad wear frequently enough and burned through the left side pads and popped the piston out of the caliper. We stuffed it all back together with the unsed second set of Porterfields and drove it another 4 hours. One of my co-drivers is an ITC Civic driver that uses Hawk Blues. He didn't feel that the Porterfields worked as well as the Hawks. At this point, I don't know what to do. I think I'm leaning towards Hawks for enduros and the new Carbotechs (1109??) for sprint races. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

------------------
-Scott Gallimore
-ITC #88 Pulsar

BUMPnGO
06-20-2003, 11:07 AM
I like the PFC's..lot's of bite and you can get them from Carbotech for closeout prices..

Tom Donnelly
06-20-2003, 03:23 PM
Chris,

I run Hawk riveted HT9's on my 240z.
Where can I get these now?

They were available from Carbotech up until
this year.

Thanks,
Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom Donnelly (edited June 20, 2003).]

TBreu007
06-20-2003, 11:07 PM
I've tried most of the pads on the list. In my experience, my recommendation is as follows:
1) Hawk Blue
2) Carbotech
3) Porterfield

On a very track worthy modified (but heavy) Subaru WRX driving at about 8/10ths, the Porterfields were not much better than stock. Carbotech race pads were better, but still faded after a few laps. Hawks were marginally better for me but still faded on a 3000lb pig of a car.
I never had any trouble dealing with Carbotech, but then again, I always dealt with Andie. I still do, but he is with Cobalt now...try them out...they have a great product as well, and I've always trusted Andie to give it to me straight.

Chris Wire
06-20-2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:
I run Hawk riveted HT9's on my 240z.
Where can I get these now?

They were available from Carbotech up until
this year.


Well Hawk is phasing out the HT9s in favor of the HT10s, which I had the pleasure of doing some initial testing for them way back at the 2000 ARRC, and then later on my AS car.

The compound has excellent temp characteristics and we were unable to fade them in the enduro in our 2400# ITA car. The pad is listed as a high torque pad, which may seem a step down from the "very high torque" HT14s and 15s, but I believe those pads are better suited for cars with very high grip levels or downforce cars.

I can't recommend the HT10s any higher, but they do force some drivers to adjust how they drive the car, and that can take some getting used to. Right 'Wood?

If the 240Z pads are a stocking pattern in the HT10 compound, then you can contact Essex Racing Parts in GA at 770-889-4096 and talk to Brian. (tell him Chris in Orlando says "HI"). Or contact the afforementioned Porterfield Racing. If you have to have the material bonded/riveted to your backing plates (ala Carbotech), then I believe Portfield can handle that for you.

Good luck.


------------------
Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

joeg
06-21-2003, 09:50 AM
Chris--I'd really like to know why Porterfield does not return calls, faxes or emails.

At least Carbotech was always "responsive."

Any thoughts?

Chris Wire
06-21-2003, 11:56 AM
joeg,

I can't comment on why that would be, as my limited dealings with Porterfield have always been satisfactory.

As for Carbotech's "responsiveness", Larry's gonna get your money any way he can! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif It's kinda what led Hawk to pull him off the custom pad program.

I don't deal frequently with Porterfield, all my info comes directly from Hawk. Definitely talk to Brian at Essex if the pad you need is not a custom, their customer service is excellent.

------------------
Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

OTLimit
06-23-2003, 09:06 AM
We have gotten excellent service from Essex and Hoerr. Chris recently got a set of brakes from Porterfield, and found them easy to deal with, but the experiment is rather pricey. We are still looking for something that is a GOOD replacement for PFCs, something better than just acceptable.

Lesley Albin
Blazen Golden Retrievers
Over The Limit Racing
Still wishing we could get enough VW racers together to buy 50 sets of PFCs.....

Tom Donnelly
06-23-2003, 10:45 AM
Chris,

Thanks, I didn't read the response until I
got into work earlier this morning.


Oh, and I agree with you about Jeff Gordon and F1.

Tom

Allen Brown
06-23-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by TBreu007:
I've tried most of the pads on the list. In my experience, my recommendation is as follows:
1) Hawk Blue
2) Carbotech
3) Porterfield

On a very track worthy modified (but heavy) Subaru WRX driving at about 8/10ths, the Porterfields were not much better than stock. Carbotech race pads were better, but still faded after a few laps. Hawks were marginally better for me but still faded on a 3000lb pig of a car.
I never had any trouble dealing with Carbotech, but then again, I always dealt with Andie. I still do, but he is with Cobalt now...try them out...they have a great product as well, and I've always trusted Andie to give it to me straight.



Which Carbotech pad have you been using? I've used the Panther and panther plus on the rears, and have also used Panther Plus and the Panther XP for the fronts. I have never had any fade. Even when being used on a two hour enduro. Brake ducting? The thing I benefit from is that my car is only weighs 2550 lbs.

Have a good one.

Doodson
06-30-2003, 01:54 PM
I am not just saying that HAWK pads suck for fun.

I ran a series on the west coast of Canada that was sponcored by HAWK and I won the series in my 1985 Honda Civic. The problem was that after every 1hour long race the hawk pads would just fall rite off the backing plates. They did work great during the race but for the $180 canadian a set I was paying, that was just not acceptable for 1/2 the pad to just fall off when it cooled.
I also have seen several honda cars bend the HAWK backing plates.
Carbotech rivets there XP1109 compound onto thicker backing plates to prevent cupping of the plate around the caliper pistons.
I tried all of HAWKS compound HT10 ,Blue Black ,Gold, and nothing worked on my cars 1989 Honda front brake set-up.

I switched to the Performance friction compound 83 and had no further pad delam. problems and have recently tryed the Carbotech pads with no problems.

Hawk may work for your car but, THEY SUCKS ON MINE !!!!!!!!!!!

Doodson

AaronW
07-05-2003, 11:03 AM
Try calling Andie at Cobalt Friction, his new compounds are really good and so are his SCCA discounts. If you don't like the Cobalt stuff he is one of the cheapest around on Hawk as he is a master distributor. He also carries Ferrodo which a lot of guys like....
www.cobaltfriction.com (http://www.cobaltfriction.com)

Vantage #51
07-16-2003, 10:03 PM
To Leslie Albin,
What is the problem with 50 sets of PFC's?
With 6 cars, so far this year we have bought a dozen sets of Larry's finest,and will probabally do it again B-4 ARRC.
Let me know what we have to do ,as I am down to my last set of PFC's as we speak.
[bought 20+ sets when they discontinued them]
We would be interested in a bulk purchase.
Stu talked about this but they would only do the 83 compound ,where we were using 80.
Derek Lugar
Vantage Motorsports
Truro N.S.
[email protected]

nismoscca
07-18-2003, 09:22 AM
For brake pad prices we beat essex (great company and very friendly) on everything they carry. We are a dealer for them so we can sell lower than them. If that were not the case why would anyone want to be a dealer for anyone? I posted some prices of what we charge for some hawks about 8 months ago and received a nastygram about what minimum advertised pricing is from hawk. To be legal we now can only quote on a one to one basis and not publish our prices. Give us a call and let us give you a quote or email us with your application or hawk #. Take care and stay safe. 888.748.7223

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[email protected]

OTLimit
08-04-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Vantage #51:
What is the problem with 50 sets of PFC's?
With 6 cars, so far this year we have bought a dozen sets of Larry's finest,and will probabally do it again B-4 ARRC.
Let me know what we have to do ,as I am down to my last set of PFC's as we speak.
[bought 20+ sets when they discontinued them]
We would be interested in a bulk purchase.



Derek,
Sorry for the delay; I don't check this topic very often. The deal was for 100 axle sets of 83s, which we were using. We had to front the $$ for 50 sets. Ouch. Although I have some pretty high credit card limits (thanks to Chris), we were not going to do this, as we only had ~10-15 sets spoken for. Still an extremely pricey situation.

I know how you feel about running out of PFCs; we only have one "new" pair left.

Chris ran some "experimental" pads that he got through Porterfield that he really likes, but I am not sure that he has fully evaluated the situation. That set of pads was really high, like $250 w/shipping; not something we will be repeating.

Email me, and we can talk.

[email protected]

Lesley Albin
Blazen Golden Retrievers (puppies, puppies everywhere!!)
Over The Limit Racing

JohnW
08-04-2003, 04:06 PM
Chris,

Sorry, I have to take issue with what you said. I won't comment on your issues with Larry... a public forum isn't the place. IMO.

However. Carbotech 1108s and the new 1109's are the best PAD on the market. PERIOD. End of story. End of debate.

I use the new 1109's on my Honda challenge Civic H1 car. My car is 2300 lbs, 210 hp with Integra Type R engine, suspension and 5 lug brakes. The car is wicked fast and can stop over and over from 130ish (most of the time out-braking anyone else on the track) with zero fade. With my 1109's I normally wait until the other guy (Cobalt or Hawk)gets on his binders before I start. It makes taking the corner easy. VERY EASY.

As far as I understand the Carbotech 1109 is the ONLY pad on the market that can successfully stop those big T2 300 hp Camaros for more than a few laps with out fading. I guess we'll just see after the Run-offs. My bet is on the Carbotech cars.

Finally, When I'm blasting down the front straight at CMP, Summit, Beaver or VIR and braking marker 5 then 4 then 3 goes bye....I thank G-D I use Carbotech pads.

Come to a ECHC event and I'll show you.

John Whitaker
HC1 #88
Points Leader

Bill Miller
08-04-2003, 06:57 PM
I was talking w/ Joel Lipperini at the Pocono dbl. National this weekend. He's using Carbotechs, and said he couldn't keep Hawk's (even the HT10's) on his SSC Civic. Loves the Carbotechs. Oh, and he couldn't say enough good stuff about the Hankook tires either! BTW, he won both races.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold)
SCCA 279608

Carbotechmatt
08-04-2003, 07:27 PM
Joel Lipperini is indeed running our new-this-year XP 1109 compound. As is Doodson and John Whitaker. David Rousch ran it at the years 1st national in January and matched his lap times with PFC 01s. One of the Sandridges will win T2 with 1109. These guys were BIG TIME Hawk guys, until they ran our latest compounds (1108 last year, 1109 this year). And John's correct, there is currently nothing on the market that can compete with 1109s on a T2 Camaro. That's racer's feedback, not us pulling stuff out of our nether regions. Ask the Sandridge boys, or Phil Croyle, or Rob Hines, or Stan Wilson. They know, and they win.

I've lost count how many times I've had a phone conversation start like this:

Me: "Carbotech, this is Matt"
Joe Racer: "Hi, I race a (whatever) in SCCA and I was at (insert track name here) last weekend. There was this guy running some new brake compound from you guys. He killed me. Completely ran me out of brakes, I had nothing left. I want some of whatever that was..."

We no longer call people and ask them to try our stuff. They call us now. Joel did, after Tom Long completely devestated his HT10s at Summit Pt. earlier this year.

Next time you see Joel, tell him Matt said hi.

[This message has been edited by Carbotechmatt (edited August 04, 2003).]

Jake
08-05-2003, 09:50 AM
My Pad's better than your pad!
Mine's awesome and your's sucks!

Ok - guys, like Allen said - PLEASE state WHICH carbotech compound you are talking about (there are many) so this debate will be meaningful in the archive.

Jake
08-05-2003, 09:55 AM
For the record, I've been VERY satisfied with Carbotech on my MR2 - but note - MR2's are fairly easy on their brakes. I run Panther Plus and Panther XP 1108 mixed to get a good brake bias. The pads heat up quick (I've even autocrosses with them), last forever on my car, and have NEVER faded. Plus they are easy on my (rather expensive to replace) rotors.

Greg Gauper
08-05-2003, 11:06 AM
I'm somewhat interested in this thread as well. I've been very happy with my Carbotech Blues. But like anything else, there have been advances in compound formulation, etc. The specs look good on the new pads (1108/1109??) used by the heavy T2 guys (I think the June Sprints winner was on them).

I'm interested in how they work on our lighter (2000lb ish) cars.

I suspect that if they hold up on a heavy T2 car at Road America, they should work fine at that other great brake dynometer in Cen-Div a.k.a. Blackhawk Farms.

If anybody has done a back-to-back comparison between 'Blues' and the new compound please describe the differences in specific terms i.e. easier/harder on rotors, better brake feel, overall wear, etc.

[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited August 05, 2003).]

Greg Gauper
08-05-2003, 11:08 AM
Fingers Slipped.



[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited August 05, 2003).]

Carbotechmatt
08-05-2003, 12:56 PM
Greg:


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I've been very happy with my Carbotech Blues</font>

The 'Blue' is the same Hawk Blue 9012 everyone knows. Those would be custom pads we (carbotech) made out of Hawk Blue material, so they bear our name, not Hawk's. But that is Hawk's "Blue" material.

Racer feedback is that our 1108 and 1109 compounds modulate FAR better than the grabby, high initial bite Blue. This is critical for lighter cars because our materials won't lock a $200 Hoosier as quickly or easily. Threshold braking is much easier to achieve and maintain. Racers have related to us they can now brake ~100ft later than they could with Blues, making it much easier to pass under braking. Imagine having a dimmer light switch vs. an on-off light switch and you get the idea.

Rotor wear: No contest. I did 11 track weekends on a set of rotors using our Panther Plus and Panther XP8 compounds last year. In that 11 weekends (22 on-track days) my rotors wore .5 (zero point five) mm. Today, I drove my track car to work on 1109. Rotor friendly, you bet!

Wear rate: Blues generally wear a little better. Often at the expense of your rotors though.

Dust: non-corrosive to wheel and paint finishes, provided you don't let is cake on for a month+. I wash my track wheels after every weekend and they are spotless. Even if I drive home in the rain.

And yes, the T2 winner (Stan Wilson) at the June Sprints was using our 1109 compound.

Greg Gauper
08-05-2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Carbotechmatt:
Greg:

The 'Blue' is the same Hawk Blue 9012 everyone knows. Those would be custom pads we (carbotech) made out of Hawk Blue material, so they bear our name, not Hawk's. But that is Hawk's "Blue" material.


Rotor wear: No contest. I did 11 track weekends on a set of rotors using our Panther Plus and Panther XP8 compounds last year. In that 11 weekends (22 on-track days) my rotors wore .5 (zero point five) mm. Today, I drove my track car to work on 1109. Rotor friendly, you bet!

Wear rate: Blues generally wear a little better. Often at the expense of your rotors though.


And yes, the T2 winner (Stan Wilson) at the June Sprints was using our 1109 compound.

Thanks for the feedback Matt!

I did know that Carbotech Blues were made from Hawk Blue material. You guys must do a better job of bonding because I've heard of some people (Honda's) having problems with Hawks falling apart but Carbotechs staying together. I listed the material to get a better apples to apples comparison.

Rotor wear is not as much an issue for some cars verses others. In my case (3rd Generation Civic) I can get new rotors for $50 a pair vs. $110 for a set of pads, so for me, rotors are consumables like gas, oil, front hubs, etc. I generally replace the rotors when I change the pads (about every 8-10 races). If I can get an extra race out of either, that helps. But as others have indicated (like the MR2 driver) in other cases rotor wear is an issue.

BTW, I'm not complaining....I used to run SS back when we had to run OEM pads. I never want to do that again. I love the fact that I can race at my home tracks (Blackhawk & Road America) and get almost a full season on a set of your pads!

What are the main differences between the 1108's and the 1109's? I'm wondering if there would be advantages in Cen-Div to choose a compound for a specific track i.e. use one pad for really tough tracks like Blackhawk & RA (very hard use and/or never cool off) and use a different pad for easy tracks like IRP, Gratten, and Mid-Ohio (relatively easy braking and/or more time to cool them off)?

Thanks!

P.S. you guys going to be at the Runoffs this year?

[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited August 05, 2003).]

Chris Wire
08-05-2003, 02:47 PM
With all due respect, John:


Originally posted by JohnW:
However. Carbotech 1108s and the new 1109's are the best PAD on the market. PERIOD. End of story. End of debate.

In your opinion. A debate is still a debate unless you prove your case with FACTS. Your arguement is simply your opinion. There's a difference.

And just so you know, there isn't ONE COMPOUND that will be the very best for everyone. Different strokes for different cars. Some guys like high torque, aggressive initial bite while others prefer a bit less torque with a more progressive feel to it. Different cars/drivers react differently to pad types.

Just like there isn't one computer/VCR/cell phone/DVD/dishwasher/TV/mattress/phone company/cola/hemorroid medicine that is the BEST for everyone. PERIOD.

Gimme a break.



------------------
Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

Carbotechmatt
08-05-2003, 06:21 PM
Greg,

Someone (likely Larry) will be at the Runoffs this year.

As far as why our pads made out of Blue do not delaminate, that is proof that the rivets work! In fact, at one time several very well known IT racers would INSIST Carbotech rivet their moulded Hawk pads before they would put them on their race car.

Bill Miller
08-05-2003, 06:23 PM
Matt,

If you want to send me a set of the 1109's to try on my Rabbit, I'll give you my feedback as compared to the Hawk Blues.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold)
SCCA 279608

JohnW
08-05-2003, 09:28 PM
just so you know, there isn't ONE COMPOUND that will be the very best for everyone. Different strokes for different cars.

Gimme a break.

[/B]

Chris- " Different strokes for different cars"...?????????

Sounds like a bunch of hog-wash. If the new Carbotech 1109's can be 'the pad to have' on a 125hp 2000 lb Honda and also on a 300hp 3500lb Chevy.... I think they'll work on about everything.

I do hope all my other HC H1 competitors continue to run inferior pads... makes out braking them easy.

Give me a BREAK!


Bill- Don't think they need to promote the 1109's with freebies anymore.... they fly of the shelf already.

Carbotechmatt
08-05-2003, 09:53 PM
Never hurts to try, does it Bill? http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

We can't make pads in 1109 fast enough. We don't even have any information about 1109 on our website yet. It has COMPLETELY sold by word of mouth. And race results.

Testing/evaluation of 1109 is completeled, but I appreciate the offer. You're more than welcome to call me to order a set, though. They are reasonably and competitively priced.

edit: I cn't speel

[This message has been edited by Carbotechmatt (edited August 05, 2003).]

Greg Gauper
08-05-2003, 10:53 PM
How about a trade-in?

I just put in an order for two sets of Blues from King Motorsports to have at the Runoffs, but I'll gladly trade one set in on the new compound to perform a back-to-back test.

Interested? I can call Bob at King to set up the switch since he had to order my 'spare' set.

Jake
08-06-2003, 11:38 AM
I'm surprised that Grassroots Motorsports has never done a Pad shootout. R4, XP, Blue - bang for the buck, ultimate stoppers etc.

OTLimit
08-06-2003, 12:53 PM
To all of you who think that rivets will always keep the pads together, think again. Just ask Larry about the conversations that Chris had with him after Chris sheered pads completely off of the backing plate SEVERAL TIMES.

No flames. Truth.

Chris Wire is correct about every racer's preference. Lots of people race on Hawk Blues and are very happy. My Chris thinks they are junk. And if you have to balance your budget against your racing goals, prepare to make some hard choices.

I don't think Chris has tried the 1108 or 1109 pads, but there is always another weekend.




------------------
Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

Silkworm
08-06-2003, 01:56 PM
Well, as I posted in the Mazda forum, I ran a set of Panther plus pads ever since I finished my ITS 2nd gen RX-7. Those pads ran about 8 HPDE weekends, and still have 40% pad life.

I ordered a set of 1109s and installed them for my race licensing test at Reno-Fernley last month. The track is only 1.5 miles long and doesn't have much in the way of high speed braking zones, so it wasn't a great test. However, as compared to the old Plus pads, I noticed that they felt much easier to get up to the limit without going over into lockup. I was braking deeper and deeper throughout the weekend, and it was a far more pleasant experience to drive down deep without immediately having to back off to unlock the right front.

I'll have a better feel for them after Sept 6/7 at T-hill, but for now, I give them a big thumbs up.

Car is an 88 RX-7, with the 4 piston front brakes, 225/50/15 shaved Toyo RA-1s (about 14 heat cycles on the set) with Kosei K-1s. Motul 600 fluid, SS lines with a adj. prop valve.

PaulC

Carbotechmatt
08-06-2003, 11:27 PM
Oddly, I find myself agreeing with both Chris and John. Here's how.

I absolutely agree that drivers are different and have different styles. What works best for one may not work best for another despite they drive the same car.

However.

That fact has no bearing on the fact that there most certainly is one *BEST* brake pad. There can only be one King.

I remember an interview with a NASCAR cylinder head guru who said: “In NASCAR, everyone can go 200 mph. The one who gets there first and can maintain it the longest, wins.” Same thing with brake pads. The racer who can achieve threshold braking the quickest and maintain it the longest AND do it consistently every braking zone for 20 laps is going to stop in the shortest distance and have the advantage. This is true for 2000lb Civics and 3600lb Camaros. Friction coefficient numbers and initial bite are essentially meaningless, when the key is modulation. You can have the highest friction coefficient and produce stellar torque numbers, but if all you do is lock your tires with the slightest input, what good it that?

So what is it? What’s the best? The days are numbered for the heavy-initial bite brake pads (Blue, 83, etc.) PFC is slowly ending production of 83 in favor of their new generation compounds like 97 and 01 which offer, shockingly, better modulation! The new generation of pads like HT10, 01, and 1109 are the future. It is our opinion (and racer feedback supports this) that PFC 01 is the King. However, it’s offered only in limited applications, particularly for O.E. calipers on production cars. So that really leaves HT10 and 1109 to do battle for supremacy over the vast majority of production based race cars.

Next time you see Lipperini, ask him how that battle went for him…

Bill Miller
08-11-2003, 10:02 PM
So Matt, how much will a set of these new 1109 pads for a VW Rabbit cost me? I need pads for the Labor Day race, and I'm willing to give them a try.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold)
SCCA 279608

Carbotechmatt
08-15-2003, 08:52 PM
I *THINK* $99. Call me Monday, 877-899-5024, 8-5:30ish Eastern.

Carbotechmatt
08-16-2003, 01:42 PM
Double post. Ignore. I hate computers http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Carbotechmatt (edited August 19, 2003).]

Carbotechmatt
09-29-2003, 09:30 PM
Update:

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">One of the Sandridges will win T2 with 1109.</font>

As predicted, Mark Sandridge won T2. With 1109 compound. TC Kline was overheard saying "I'm going to run those Camaros out of brakes" with his 350Z Brembos. Didn't happen.

We took SSC as well. In a Saturn. I did not mistype, a S-A-T-U-R-N.

1109 is now championship proven. Too bad most of you didn't get some while they were cheap. Prices go up soon... http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Matt <--a little cocky, and deservedly so...

Jan in Omaha
10-10-2003, 12:45 AM
Matt,

Are the backing plates stiffer on the 1109's than the 1108's? My SSC Neon bent the 1108's around the piston way too quickly. I talked to Larry at the Runoffs about this and he said there were some problems with the Neon pads (big pads with a single piston) but I don't remember what he said about the 1109's or if the 1108's backing plates were being redesigned.

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Whoomah! ™

Jan Gerber
Omaha, NE
95 Neon ACR #11 SSC/DSP/(ITS?)

Greg Gauper
10-10-2003, 07:31 AM
But the $64K question here in Cen-Div is....

Will they (1108's/1109's)last at Blackhawk?

There ain't no track in the country as hard on brakes as Blackhawk!

OTLimit
10-10-2003, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Greg Gauper:
Will they (1108's/1109's)last at Blackhawk?

There ain't no track in the country as hard on brakes as Blackhawk!

Except maybe Hallett.



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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

Greg Gauper
10-10-2003, 01:31 PM
Lesley,
After studying the track map on Hallet's website, I guess I have to agree but obviously I haven't run there. Anybody run both who can chime in?

Both tracks look like they have the same problem for brakes in that they never get time to cool down.

Full throttle acceleration for 10-15 seconds followed by very hard braking followed by hard acceleration followed by hard braking etc...

In an ITC car its accelerate to 90+ and then brake down to 60, corner after corner, lap after lap.

I'll modify my statement to say there ain't no track harder on brakes....in Cen-Div http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited October 10, 2003).]

OTLimit
10-13-2003, 09:08 AM
Greg,
Chris thinks the tracks would be pretty comparable for brake use. Precisely the reason Chris very seldom puts on new brakes at Hallett; just going to destroy them anyway. Easier to change them after every session and just dispose of the stuff that only has a session left in them anyway. Especially the way Chris uses the brakes. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif



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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

Carbotechmatt
10-14-2003, 06:02 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Are the backing plates stiffer on the 1109's than the 1108's?</font>

No they are the exact same plates.

Here's the problem: The 1108 and 1109 materials fade at such high temps, the entire brake system now has the ability to operate at very high temps. High heat (we're talking well over 1200F) + single piston + thin backing plates = bent pads. The thin plates that Chrysler specified for the Neon just can't take it.

Not much we can do about it.

Jan in Omaha
10-16-2003, 07:53 PM
Thanks for the info and clarification. (not what I had remembered Larry saying)

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Whoomah! ™

Jan Gerber
Omaha, NE
95 Neon ACR #11 SSC/DSP/(ITS?)