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mlytle
09-24-2004, 04:44 PM
anyone have any guesses on how much "rewards weight" its e36's are going to be assesed by the comp board for next year? i keep hearing that is in not a matter of "if" but "how much".

Bruce Shafer
09-28-2004, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by mlytle:
anyone have any guesses on how much "rewards weight" its e36's are going to be assesed by the comp board for next year? i keep hearing that is in not a matter of "if" but "how much".

I would say the E36 will get its reward right after the most dominant car in ITS, the RX-7, gets slapped with a hundred pounds of trophy lead. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

Greg Amy
09-28-2004, 04:42 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...the most dominant car in ITS, the RX-7...</font>

Somehow, I don't think you and I are tuned to the same bat-channel... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

lateapex911
09-28-2004, 06:06 PM
Can you provide the method of determing how "most dominant" was defined?

If you mean by the number of race wins over time, thats not a viable method.

I ask you this: Take the best drivers in the nation in RX-7s, and E-36s, and put them in a 3 race series at Road Atlanta, VIR and Road America. Eliminate mechanical failures...which car will wind up in front?

I think the weight issue is troubling the board becuase they are trying to attach a value to the affect extra weight will have over longer race periods (vs. Qualifying), as opposed to an intake restrictor. Thats just a guess though.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

JeffYoung
09-28-2004, 06:28 PM
Jake, I agree with you for the most part on BMWs, and really enjoyed your last post on the General thread regardig the history of IT.

BUT.....take those same two E36s and RX7s and run them at Roebling, Kershaw and Lime Rock...and you probably get a different result.

The E36 will dominate at HP tracks, I agree, but the 7s and the 240s still take wins (even against the best E36s) at other places.

lateapex911
09-28-2004, 09:07 PM
Jeff, I hear you...but...even at Lime Rock, and NHIS, two tracks that lack the airplane runway straight of say a Road America or Road Atlanta, Nick Leverone is having fits (like not winning fits!) with the E-36s. Nick ran last years ARRC, and was, IIRC, the fastest RX-7 in every session, but wasn't in the hunt fot the podium (sorry Nick!). And I don't think that the E-36s he runs against are the measure of the better E-36s in the country. (no offense guys...getting closer all the time, but the fast guys are insanely fast!)

Also, when I think of all the tracks the SCCA runs on, I can think of tons of tracks that are in the RA mold, and not so many that are in the Waterford Hills/ Roebling Road mold. Even Laguna Seca, not known for its long straights, is a place that would favor the E-36, as its longer straights are all uphill!

I know what you are saying, but I still think the balance is tipped to the BMW, both in the tracks that we run most, and the BMWs physical attributes.

Calling the RX-7 a "dominant" car is a huge strech...perhaps it was a joke none of us got! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

GKR_17
09-29-2004, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by lateapex911:
Nick ran last years ARRC, and was, IIRC, the fastest RX-7 in every session, but wasn't in the hunt fot the podium (sorry Nick!).

You seem to have forgotten that Speedsource was at a Grand-Am event (and Jeff Hill had sold his car), so none of the top Rx-7's from the Southeast were even there. Nick also surely would have been faster had he been more experienced with the track.

And outside of the Rx-7's, don't forget that a 240Z easily had second, with the most dominant 240Z not at the event either.

Nearly all of the fast E36's were there - name one that was not (other than York, who was there but broke on test day).

Only one Rx-7 and one 240Z that had a chance at winning bothered to showed up, and both were in the top 5.

Grafton

lateapex911
09-29-2004, 06:55 PM
Well, I am looking forward to another great ARRC, and I hope the best of the best all show up, run strong and run legal and we can all go home entertained and perhaps edified.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

badal
09-29-2004, 10:32 PM
I hope Ed York ed-ifies the whole field.

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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series

mlytle
09-29-2004, 11:52 PM
me too al!
i wanna know that the guy kickin' all our butts in every marrs race is the top dog at the arrc!

and i here he will be playing with you next weekend! ;-)


all the hints from the it comp committee seem to be that the e36 WILL gain weight. argh.

marshall
ITS #64 BMW E36
DC Region MARRS Series

[This message has been edited by mlytle (edited September 29, 2004).]

lateapex911
09-30-2004, 03:52 AM
Just for giggles, what would you E36 guys rather have...weight or an intake restrictor?

If you think more weight is your choice how much is fair? How much is too much?

Think globaly.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

mlytle
09-30-2004, 04:46 PM
c: none of the above...;-)

what i would rather see is reclassification of a bunch of cars and maybe a new itss class. move slower cars to ita. move bmw's and whatever else comes allong that is fast to itss.

heck, the ita honda crx's seem to be running away with most all of the ita races around here, they are actually running times that would put them in the top third of the its class. i haven't heard much from the rest of the ita crowd complaining that the crx's needed to be slowed down somehow or moved to its. hmmm.

marshall

ITSRX7
09-30-2004, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by mlytle:
heck, the ita honda crx's seem to be running away with most all of the ita races around here...
marshall

"Around there" is the key. The CRX is not a single-model dominant car in ITA. I am willing to bet an Integra wins the ARRC...maybe a red one...

AB

mlytle
09-30-2004, 09:27 PM
sounds like you know of a fast red integra! or else "red" is a color worth some extra hp....;-)

yes, my observation was just based on events i have seen with marrs series, including watkins glen with glen region. crx's seemed dominant. at summit point, crx's have had faster lap times than any other ita car and nearly all the its cars except the e36 bmws.

dave parker
09-30-2004, 09:34 PM
Marshall
Yes i think in the right hands the e36 is the dominant car in ITS. Is it ready for extra weight? that is up to the driver.
Remember what happens in the MARRS races stays in the MARRS races.

STOP tellin the world that Matt Yip and I are FATT!!!!

http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

dave parker
wdcrITC#97

stevel
10-26-2004, 02:23 PM
yes, my observation was just based on events i have seen with marrs series, including watkins glen with glen region. crx's seemed dominant. at summit point, crx's have had faster lap times than any other ita car and nearly all the its cars except the e36 bmws.

as AB said, around here is the key. I haven't been to LRP enough or paid attention as a wider region of people show up to those events. but at NHIS events, a crx is rarely seen. The integra's usually grab 4 of the top 5 spots. And from the few times I have been to LRP there's usually an even mix of integra's and crx's in the top 10. Seems the integra's are grabbing the top spots with Tom Blaney being the lone crx fighting his way thru them, sometimes winning and sometimes not. Anyway, sorry to digress.

Those E36's just seem to walk from everyone else, but my base of knowledge in saying that is only this past season at 2 tracks, so take it with a grain of salt.

s

Super Swift
10-27-2004, 11:02 AM
Jake

Bruce said what he did because he has the fastest Florida e36. (if not very close to it) Bruce races at several tracks across the southeast Moroso, Sebring, VIR, HomesteadÖ and in his may races this year his over-dog dominating e36 has only received a limited number of wins. (maybe only one at Sebring Short)

So, Jake donít tell him he is wrong because in Florida, the most prolific region for ITS, the RX-7 is king. The Integra GSR has more wins in Florida this year than the e36. The Prelude has more this year. The 190E is in the same ballpark. The RX-7 has had more wins in the north this year than the e36 has had in Florida. (Donít say unfair comparison because there have been several races held down there. {+/-20} Also, donít even think of insulting the car quality of the Florida boys. One of the e36ís that finished ahead of Nick last year has been down to Florida a few times this year and hasnít returned home with a 5$ trophy.)

Maybe the classification of the cars is far better than you think Jake. No one has seen a series of races with all the best cars running. Maybe the true over-dog is the 944S, Milano 3.0, 911, VW VR-6, 98 Prelude or THERE IS NO OVER-DOG!!!

p.s. The last results I saw for Road America were won by an Olds.

Super Swift
10-27-2004, 11:15 AM
Jake

Every race this year at Laguna Seca has been won by an RX-7.
http://www.sfrscca.org/Results/index.html

Nick Leverone
11-13-2004, 12:26 AM
The problem with the E36 is that it has an admitted and from what I have heard confirmed 50 more HP and close to 100 more ft.lbs of torque than a well built Rx-7. The BMW's in the Northeast handle almost as well as my Rx-7 and are a bit faster down a long straight (they are not nearly as powerful as the BMW's at the ARRC), we have great races and I hate to see that change, but the fact of the matter is this, the potential of the BMW is higher than most BMW drivers have achieved in their car and definitely higher than the original members who classified it thought it could make. There for you have to look at what the car is capable of in its most potent form and I think the ARC cars and the Bimmerworld cars are showing us the ultimate performance. Don't get me wrong the drivers of the fast cars at the ARRC is awesome and I have only driven the track two times, but they are pulling my Rx-7 down the straight 3-4 car lengths, even when I am on their bumper coming off seven I get pulled 2-3. I personally think that a restrictor is the way to go, easy to administer, safer than gobs of weight in the driver compartment and does not take away from the brakes and handling of the car just effects the biggest problem I see with the car, POWER!

Just my two cents, we will see what happens either way I will be back at the ARRC next year trying to keep up.



------------------
Nick Leverone
04 ITS Mazda Rx-7
www.flatout-motorsports.com

lateapex911
11-13-2004, 01:57 AM
Super Swift...wish I knew your name...well, anyway...

Was the Mercedes the same one I saw at the ARRCs? What about all the other cars you refer to from FL? Which ones went one state north for the big race?

The problem with merely citing results is the relative lack of comparable data. For example...the BMW that you site as being the best in FL..did he run against the guys from VIR like York? How'd he do?

(I am asking, not setting anything up as I don't know... I don't recall if he was at the ARRCs or not, and the other cars you mentioned weren't associated with drivers)

The point is, that without seeing how those guys run against "these guys" it's hard to draw any solid conclusions. And while the ARRCs aren't the "be all and end all" of races, they DO provide a common ground for the best of the best to compete. Also, while there is no such thing as guaranteed legality, we know that the front runners at the ARRC are not blatently illegal, which is next to impossible to say for nearly any other race in the country.

As far as I know, all ITS frontrunners made it thru the tech shed unscathed.

A final thought. We all know that two cars can run identical lap times, but if one is decidedly quicker down the straights, but an inferior handler, it will still win once the racing starts.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Nick Leverone
11-13-2004, 09:42 AM
<<One of the e36ís that finished ahead of Nick last year has been down to Florida a few times this year and hasnít returned home with a 5$ trophy.)>>

Super Swift, I hope you are not talking about Taylor Robertson, because although he is a good driver even he admits he does not have all the power that the fast guys have.

------------------
Nick Leverone
04 ITS Mazda Rx-7
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Rick_htm
11-14-2004, 11:28 AM
Amen Nick. Taylor has a very nice car. And I had a blast racing with him at the ARRC. But the top BMW's have a big hp advantage. I don't blame anyone for fighting against wieght or restrictors if it is against thier interests. But if Chet's car is legal, and it did pass tech, then that is the benchmark of what a fully developed BMW can do.

Rick Harbaugh
ITS #2 RX-7

wburstein
11-28-2004, 02:05 PM
I would suggest that Ed York's car is at least as good of a benchmark for an E36. At VIR, he had at least as much power as Chet had (in Larry Stepp's car), but better handling. Not being at the ARRC, I don't know what Chet and Larry have done to their cars since then, but Ed did end up with the pole.

JeffYoung
11-28-2004, 02:20 PM
Hmmm..are you sure? Wittel ran a 2:12 (high 12) to York's 2:15 on Sunday. On Saturday, I think they were both high 14s. Bottom line appears to be that the orange car was about 1 to 1.5 seconds a lap faster than York's at its best.

Both obviously excellent drivers, not getting into that debate.

Jeff

wburstein
11-28-2004, 09:57 PM
At VIR as well as at the ARRC, Ed had mechanical problems during the races.

As I recall, Ed had the pole at VIR for both races. I am sure he was 1/2 a second faster than Chet in the first qualifying session, but don't have results for the second session.

Both Chet and Ed have put together awesome programs that are at the top of the current ITS class. Some of us get to race with them all year ;-)

------------------
Wayne Burstein
WDC Region, ITS #10, Datsun 240Z
www.mountainmotorsports.net

jwsbmw325
12-06-2004, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by JeffYoung:

BUT.....take those same two E36s and RX7s and run them at Roebling, Kershaw and Lime Rock...and you probably get a different result.

The E36 will dominate at HP tracks, I agree, but the 7s and the 240s still take wins (even against the best E36s) at other places.[/B]

Thanks Jeff - you are correct. Look at the NorthEast specifically....LRP, NHIS. RX-7 dominates there. Watkins Glen is a different story, but guess what just set the Long Corse record? An RX-7. THis is why I have posted a lengthy diatribe again one guy in particular who has led the charge against the E-36. Funny, this guy doesnt even drive in ITS.....

GKR_17
12-06-2004, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by jwsbmw325:
Funny, this guy doesnt even drive in ITS.....

Several of the frequent posters here don't currently run in IT as I understand.

jwsbmw325
12-07-2004, 11:49 AM
doesnt matter, it is what it is. If the plate rule is administered for 05 - we'll have one in there and we'll do our best. Nick is right, I am sure that the Bimmerworld cars and the other guys in teh SOuth have expanded the envelope on the motors. We dont run Motec for example. I felt the competittion was pretty fair in teh Northeast, maybe not in the South or other regions.

ITSRX7
12-07-2004, 12:53 PM
I will ask you this John:

Why do you think it's "right" to have your 9/10ths car run with the 10/10ths stuff of everyone else? Nick's RX-7 have EVERY trick in the book, your cars don't...and the racing is equal in the Northeast...is that fair to everyone else?

The big picture is simple, when like driven and like prepared cars are compared, the BMW is an overdog. Your personal experience is moot because your cars can compete with the top RX-7 in the country without being fully prepped.

Fair? I don't think so. Apples must be compared to Apples. You gonna have to spend more money to go faster? WELCOME TO THE CLUB.

Andy

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

ilateapex
12-07-2004, 05:42 PM
Do these 10/10th RX7's have Motec? Could not other cars be helped by it? I only hear it being used with the BMW's. What about using it with the others?

Michael

dj10
12-07-2004, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by ilateapex:
Do these 10/10th RX7's have Motec? Could not other cars be helped by it? I only hear it being used with the BMW's. What about using it with the others?

Michael

I believe that the rule should be changed to read, "Other than a performance chip the factory computer (ECU) must remain as from the factory" !!!!!
DJ

GKR_17
12-07-2004, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
...your cars can compete with the top RX-7 in the country without being fully prepped.


You forget that the fastest Rx-7 at the ARRC weekend was not Nick, and then Kip, while driving Nick's car, got second to another Rx-7 last month at Roebling. Seem's like there's still something left on the table...

I wonder how the 70 or the 48 Speedsourse cars would have done with Motec, 04 Hoosiers.

Grafton

ITSRX7
12-07-2004, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by GKR_17:
You forget that the fastest Rx-7 at the ARRC weekend was not Nick, and then Kip, while driving Nick's car, got second to another Rx-7 last month at Roebling. Seem's like there's still something left on the table...

I wonder how the 70 or the 48 Speedsourse cars would have done with Motec, 04 Hoosiers.

Grafton

Grafton,

Do me a favor, let me know who was faster that weekend. My info had Nick at a 1:41.458.

AB

GKR_17
12-07-2004, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
Grafton,

My info had Nick at a 1:41.458.



I stand corrected, Jeff Hill qualified for the enduro at a 1:41.558, which beat Nick's best qualifying time for the sprint (1:41.827). But, Nick was able to cut that to the 1:41.458 on the 4th lap of the sprint.

Grafton

ITSRX7
12-08-2004, 11:20 AM
Either way, Jeff and Nick are fast. Do you have any insight as to the fastest EVER lap cut by Syl? Conditions for the sprint were great.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

dspillrat
12-08-2004, 01:27 PM
2001 ARRC Qualifing...
Trembly..1:40.2.."rx7"
J.williams..1:40.5.."Z"

I have been curious for a while if 10B has been watched during those sessions...

Incredible race to watch in car video from the orange zs perspective

kthomas
12-09-2004, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by dspillrat:

2001 ARRC [edit]

Incredible race to watch in car video from the orange zs perspective

Absolutely the most amazing drive I ever saw.

------------------
katman

dj10
12-09-2004, 05:39 PM
How can a Motec be legal for any car? It is it's own ECU and only replaces the factory ECU and it also has it's own wiring harness which makes it illegal as hell.
I hope someone isn't going to tell me that a racer will spend 4k or more on a single component to win a piece of wood, not money but wood!!!!!
DJ

Greg Amy
12-09-2004, 05:49 PM
Not the forum to get into it DJ. Simply put, yes it's done, and it costs a bit more than $4k, typically. Try the following if you want to learn more:

http://forum.improvedtouring.com/it/Forum2...TML/000752.html (http://forum.improvedtouring.com/it/Forum2/HTML/000752.html)

http://forum.improvedtouring.com/it/Forum2...TML/000744.html (http://forum.improvedtouring.com/it/Forum2/HTML/000744.html)

Among others...

dj10
12-09-2004, 09:54 PM
[quote]Originally posted by GregAmy:
[B]Not the forum to get into it DJ. Simply put, yes it's done, and it costs a bit more than $4k, typically. Try the following if you want to learn more:

Thanks, I did learn alot. Why isn't this the forum to get into this discussion? I'm new to ITS, but I truly believe that the rule should read differently to exclude these types of expensive programable ECU's for any car. But as the rule reads if you use the factory wiring harness, I guess there legal? This is grassroots motorsports? Has anyone tried to get the Comp Board to change this?
Thanks again
Dan

Greg Amy
12-09-2004, 10:30 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Why isn't this the forum to get into this discussion?</font>

Because it's really a general rule discussion that affects everyone, not just BMWs. To put it here would make it appear to be E36-bashing, and Lord knows these guys are already overly-sensitive to that right now... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

seckerich
12-09-2004, 11:25 PM
Jeff hill was driving Kent Thompsons car at the ARRC which is the same car that beat Kip at Roebling. I dont think that either car is leaving anything on the table
Originally posted by GKR_17:
I stand corrected, Jeff Hill qualified for the enduro at a 1:41.558, which beat Nick's best qualifying time for the sprint (1:41.827). But, Nick was able to cut that to the 1:41.458 on the 4th lap of the sprint.

Grafton

dj10
12-10-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by GregAmy:
Because it's really a general rule discussion that affects everyone, not just BMWs. To put it here would make it appear to be E36-bashing, and Lord knows these guys are already overly-sensitive to that right now... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif


LOL! MY ITS car is a E36 and what the hell is to be overly sensitive about? Aren't we calling a spade a spade?

mlytle
12-10-2004, 01:13 PM
dj,
the ecu rule issue has been beaten to death in multiple threads since it was instituted a couple years ago. i agree, it sucks, but it is there for now. you are new and haven't lived through all the seemingly endless "discussions" that occurred. pardon the rest of us if we just don't want to go down that road yet again.

marshall
its e36

dj10
12-10-2004, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by mlytle:
dj,
the ecu rule issue has been beaten to death in multiple threads since it was instituted a couple years ago. i agree, it sucks, but it is there for now. you are new and haven't lived through all the seemingly endless "discussions" that occurred. pardon the rest of us if we just don't want to go down that road yet again.

marshall
its e36
Thanks Marshall,
Just answer a yes or no question. Has anyone tried to get the rule changed?
I'll not post any more on this subject. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
Dan

gsbaker
12-10-2004, 03:09 PM
dj,

Aw, this is nothing. Why don't you suggest they put the New Beetle in ITC.

Stand back; it will run ten pages. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

G

wburstein
12-12-2004, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by kthomas:
Absolutely the most amazing drive I ever saw.



I'm kind of partial to Chet's win at VIR with the front end dragging on the pavement after t-boning an out of control RX7. That is the ONLY race that I didn't mind breaking my car because I got to watch a fantastic battle.

------------------
Wayne Burstein
WDC Region, ITS #10, Datsun 240Z
www.mountainmotorsports.net