spec tire for it-7

[steve s]

did any of you guys heard a rumor that their is a drive on to get a spec tire for the it-7 class.??? what do you guys think about that idea???

------------------
steve saney
it-7 /it-a #34

[Speed Raycer]

Hmmm... since it's a regional only class, and not an official Regional Only class, I'd think that the rumor you heard was just that, a rumor.

Since IT7 doesn't have its own ruleset and up to 15" wheels will be allowed next year in IT, how could they expect to adopt a spec tire?

I might be for it as long as it wasn't a Hoosier http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

------------------
Scott Rhea
It's not what you build...
it's how you build it
http://www.izzyscustomcages.com/images/IzysLgoSm.jpg (http://www.izzyscustomcages.com)
Izzy's Custom Cages (http://www.izzyscustomcages.com)

[miketrier]

I wouldn't be opposed to a spec tire but it would be very difficult to administer due to the division by division character of the class and the need to run in ITA where IT7 isn't authorized. The new wheel diameter options add to the impracticality.

[joeracerx95]

In Pro7 we have a spec tire. I don't see why IT7 would have any issue with it. It sure cuts down on costs if you pick the right one.

On a related note. Pro7 here in SoCal continues to run 13X7 wheels. If anyone has some they are selling because they are changing to 15", you will probably find some buyers here.

[steve s]

thanks for the feed back guys . i am going to stay with my 13inch rim.
i would think a spec tire is a good thing cost wise. but i use kumho and get kumho bucks .free tires!!!!!freebie!!!! don't want to change brands ,but if i have to i will.i already have test data for my suspension setup for all popular tires for the rx 7.so it's not a problem.
i was told that someone in the S.E.div is petetioning for the spec tire .

[Hotshoe]

...I for one do not want a "Spec Tire". I prefer to spend my money on tires that I want and I do not concern myself with what other drivers use.
...So why should they try to impose their choice on those that do not use what they want.
...Maybe they should take into consideration that it may be something other than the tires?

...Rick Thompson #99 IT7

[Mike Cox]

I am not for a "spec tire". Like Steve, I use Kuhmo tires because of their contingency program.

I would not be opposed to IT7 staying with 13" x 7" rims however. That would be a cost savings to all of us. If we were to petition the SE Div to make a rule change that we (IT7) stay with the same rims we have now, I would sign it but not a spec tire petition.

Mike

[Mike Cox]

Rick, I need your number again. changed phones and lost it

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike Cox (edited December 21, 2004).]

[steve s]

rick iknow you like those hoosiers, and i know it takes a long time and testing to get the right setup for those tires.
i am not the one petetioning for the spec tire ,since i would be losing my contingency. i heard it's someone from up your way rick ,some where in the georgia/carolina area, maybe you can shed some more light on this and let's kill it before it get to a vote or something worse. I DON'T WANT A SPEC TIRE FOR IT7. that's my vote.

------------------
steve saney
it-7 /it-a #34

[lateapex911]

If Hoosiers are your choice, I imagine the budget required is significant. Unless you have a great contingency program available, and win regularly, your wallet is pretty thin by the end of the season.

IF you substituted Toyos, for example, it is easy to see that an average season would have the tire budget cut in half. For the one guy who wins all the time, the loss of contigency bucks makes the difference smaller....

But...for all the guys who DON'T win, those savings are real.

Spec tires are meant to save money for the entire class.

What about not specing a tire in particualr, nor even a specific manufacturer? I've always liked the idea of mandating certain parameters that would make the tires last longer, thus saving money.

Perhaps disallowing tires under a certain treadwear rating? In other words, run whatever you like as long as it has a treadwear of XXXX or more.

I wouldn't shed a tear if Hoosier was eliminated from the list of choices.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

I'm confused on the wheel issue...The new rule allows us to run a 14 or 15 x 7" rim if we want...but there is no requirement to do so.

Is there a suggestion of a spec wheel or something?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[mustanghammer]

Picking a cheap, long lasting tire (Toyo) to serve as a spec tire sounds like a good idea. That is until you realize that a new cheap tire is always faster than an old cheap tire. So the racers that are buying Hoosiers now would simply be mounting new cheap tires at every race. So there would still be no economic equality created by a spec tire. Ask a Spec Miata driver about new Hankooks versus old Hankooks.

My strategy is to run every race on just enough tire to win. If the competition is light (or non-existant) I run on the crappiest tires I have in inventory. This makes the occassional Hoosiers that I buy last a lot longer. Last year I ran every race on close out specials from the Tire Rack (Kumho 175/60X13's and old style Hoosier Radials). A good tire budget year. Keeps my boss....I mean my wife happy.



------------------
Scott Peterson
KC Region
IT7 #17

[steve s]

just got in the mail my ballot for the spec tire from a blair stitt in north carolina. i guess all you it-7 drivers in the S.E. div will be getting your ballot pretty soon. it has to voted on by the RE's and the SEdiv review board. it also said you can contact the father of it-7. lee graser.

------------------
steve saney
it-7 /it-a #34

[joeracerx95]

I have no skin in the game on this. I'm just providing some data for you folks to ponder.

In CalClub Pro7 we run a spec Toyo RA1, 205/60/13. I have found that I can run these Toyos scrubbed, half worn or near the cords and my results this year have been the same regardless. I took 10 out of 11 poles and won 10 out of 11 races. Toyos really are consistent from new until cords are showing. They also last a long time (at least compared to Kumho). Want to drop a thousand or two out of your racing budget next year without affecting how much fun and success you can have? Go with a spec Toyo.

[mustanghammer]

joeracerx95

Wow, the Toyos are that consistent! I stand corrected.

In all the years I have been messing with racing tires the only thing that ever came close to what you describe are Goodyear R430 and R240 compound racing slicks. I used to run really big ones on my old Mustang and they were good to the last drop. The DOT Hoosier I have ran over the last couple of years fell off after 4 heat cycles.

[lateapex911]

All the SM guys will concur, I am sure, on the Toyos. Some even say they are faster later intheir life.

I really cringe ordering these stupid hoosiers. Its throwing money into the air. Stupid.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[crushed]

I personally love the Hoosier. It is as close as you can get to a real race tire while still being DOT approved. The Toyo is more like a street tire with some sticky rubber. Good, but not great. I raced my friends SM once last season and thought the tire was crap compared to the Hoosier, the ultimate grip is just not there.

I'm voting for no spec tire. It won't save that much money for anyone. If you're a mid pack racer and want to save some cash just go dig through the take off pile, there are plenty of good tires in there for FREE!

VOTE NO!!!! SAVE THE HOOSIERS!!!!!

------------------
Russ Marshall
#31 IT-7

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by crushed:

I'm voting for no spec tire. It won't save that much money for anyone. If you're a mid pack racer and want to save some cash just go dig through the take off pile, there are plenty of good tires in there for FREE!

VOTE NO!!!! SAVE THE HOOSIERS!!!!!



How can you say it won't save money?

To run Hoosiers, it costs me about $800 to get a set on the car. Lets say they last 7 sessions before going off. (Some say as little as 4) Thats not even 3 events.

They Toyos last well over 20 sessions. Let's say 24 sessions...thats about 8 events.

Sure the Hoosiers are faster, by a second or maybe two per lap.....but the Toyos are consistent three times as long!!

How can that NOT save big bucks?? Sounds like $1600 to me!



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[crushed]

Last season I could get 5-6 events out of a set. I did the entire ARRC weekend on 1 set (pro-it, arrc, and enduro), and then ran a 2 day track event at RA on the same tires before they went out. Thats something like 7+ HOURS of track use running competitive lap times. not bad. If somone is only getting 3 events on a set of tires they have some setup issues.

So if you're a frontrunner you will get a break on tires from ART by winning races. If you're a mid pack racer you can get by quite happily on take offs (I did so for most of last season). Toyos for everyone still won't make the mid pack guys competitive, and I think most of the frontrunners will agree the Hoosier is much more fun to race on.

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
...So why should they try to impose their choice on those that do not use what they want.
...Maybe they should take into consideration that it may be something other than the tires?


I'll take a crack at this.

I race a car in a class that the "tire to have" falls off quicker and is more expensive than a set of 13" Hoosiers. (Treaded Dunlop Vintage tires that are very soft--think Hoosier dirt stockers on a 1000# car) I use the tires to have because there is a large difference in performance between this choice and the other tire choice.

I would support a spec tire because I do believe it IS something different than the tires. If we are all on the same rubber I have no problem.

[Hotshoe]

Okay, here goes
...I should keep my mouth shut but, when I read some of the comments made here I feel like everyone should know what a good tire is capable of.
...I have tried them all. And for a Novice a Toyo is the best tire. It is durable and has a fair amount of grip. Only down fall is it has a limited slip angle. I have a difficult time keeping the tire in a slide before it looses grip completely.
...Hoosier is my tire of choice for that very reason. It has the better feel in the corner. I can overdrive the entry into a corner and rely on the tire to help slow the car. A Toyo will only loose grip. That is where the biggest speed difference is between the two tires.
...Most drivers that do not know how to drive a Hoosier tire usually end up burning off the front tires because they do not drive the car into the corner hard enough.
...I can run either tire and turn almost the same lap times but I prefer the Hoosier over the Toyo because it is a better RACE tire. It has better grip, more performance, and with the different compounds it has more versatility. They are well worth the difference in price. If you know what you are feeling you can really FEEL the difference.

...Please, say.... NO .... to the spec tire rule..... Thank You

....Rick Thompson # 99 IT7

FYI...The last time I drove a Toyo tire was this fall in the 13 hour race at VIR. My best lap was a 2.23 in a Spec Miata. That time is better than most of the IT7 cars that want to have the spec tire. And considering that the Miata should be at least a second a lap slower than an IT7...Go figure?

[Boswoj]

Since everyone is weighing in on this one, I guess I'll run my opinion up the flag pole as well.

Spec tires are intended to put the emphasis back on the driver and not on the wallet. Period. This is in no way intended as a slight to Hoosier - quite the opposite. Hoosier makes a great product, but it is so good, so expensive, and so short lived that they can make a HUGE difference in a year's racing budget. The idea that Hoosiers in current sprint race usage last anything like a Toyo is ludicrous. If you want to grab a quick one to two second advantage on your competition, dig deep into that wallet. After about six heat cycles that advantage is gone, and the grip takes a pretty linear dive down to, and below the Toyos. This is typically what happens to affordable classes - someone finds a high dollar tweak because they want to run at the front and it separates the "haves" from the "have nots". What you have to ask yourself is will you feel good about winning a race or championship against an exactly equal car with a driver that has driving skills that are one second better than yours, because you have a tire budget that allows you to grab two seconds on equipment alone. Why not just have everyone bring a cash machine receipt to the track and award the trophies to the biggest bank balance? A spec tire helps make sure it's about the DRIVER, not the WALLET.

Happy Holidays everyone!
Boswoj

[crushed]

If you want to race with a spec tire there is a class for you! It's called Spec Miata. One of the things I love about IT-7 is the freedom to modify my car how I choose. IT-7 is not supposed to be a spec class. I love the fact that you can have 5 cars all prepared differently all running within .5 sec of eachother, it makes for really exciting racing. Besides, there are plenty of other ways to spend big bucks and make an IT-7 go faster (ceramic apex seals anyone?). You're going to see more stuff like that if the Toyo is speced.

Bottom line is the frontrunners will still be the frontrunners, and will probably spend the money they were going to spend on Hoosiers making their cars faster in other ways. Racing is expensive, thats just how it is. IT-7 is one of the cheapest classes around (if not the cheapest), I don't think it needs to be cheaper. I probably have one of the smallest budgets in IT-7, and I would rather spend the extra cash to have more fun on a proper racing tire and eat ramen noodles for a month then to be forced to race on Toyos.


------------------
Russ Marshall
#31 IT-7

[Hotshoe]

[quote]Originally posted by crushed:
I probably have one of the smallest budgets in IT-7, and I would rather spend the extra cash to have more fun on a proper racing tire and eat ramen noodles for a month then to be forced to race on Toyos.


....Now that is what I call a RACER.

...I work two jobs, quit smoking and drinking, just so I can afford to race.

...But some of the people that complain are not as dedicated. So instead of bringing a "Cash Machine Receipt" how about a "Time Card" showing how much effort was put forth to get there. Don't even think that MONEY buys everything. I work over 70 hours a week to support my HOBBY so I feel like (all prejudice aside) I deserve to buy a GOOD set of tires.

...Russ.... I like ramen noodles too ...LOL

...Rick Thompson # 99 IT7

[Quickshoe]

IF a tire was developed that, when new, was 1 second a lap faster than a Hoosier. Lasted 2-30 minute heat cycle before it fell off to below new Hoosier level and cost $1200/set...would the tire expense required to run up front then be a problem? Okay how about 2 seconds, 1 heat cycle and $1500 ?

All it takes is one otherwise equally prepped and driven car, to show up on the Gumbo 870S and you are racing for second place.

That is what I feel we have with the Hoosier situation. As long as the competition for first place isn't on new Hoosiers you don't need to be either. But if they are, you better be too or settle for second. Do people win who aren't on new Hoosiers? Sure, but not against otherwise equal competition.

I don't know many people who work 70 hours a week and eat Ramen because they like coming in second. Getting rid of the neccessity for Hoosiers will give you the option to step up to Mac n' Cheese. Or spend your same dollar on things that net you less speed for the buck. Or better yet, aren't highly consumable.

Rick mentioned a few posts ago something like "it is not just the tires"...I AGREE and that is why, under the right circumstances I WOULD SUPPORT a spec tire. Put us all on rock-hard snot slick tires, it will just put more ephasis on driver ability which is fine with me. It is the race not the ride that puts a smile on my face. I don't need an advantage to be willing to race with anybody. Equal equipment is all I strive for, leave the rest up to me. I have always strived for no excuse cars. The less expensive that no excuse car is the better I eat. You can still out spend me in other areas but they will have less of an impact on your lap times per dollar than the tires, guaranteed.

Further, when I do win you won't be claiming it is only because I can afford new Gumbo 870s.

Happy Holidays!

------------------
Daryl DeArman
ex ITA and EProd 1st gen Rx7 and ITA Mk1 MR2
current owner of a FV, who still visits this site because the Vee forums aren't near as fun.--and no there isn't anything to do on my Vee right now or I'd be doing it ;)

[Marcus Miller]

Originally posted by joeracerx95:
*snip* I took 10 out of 11 poles and won 10 out of 11 races. Toyos really are consistent from new until cords are showing. *snip*

Yeah, but you got beat by a girl! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif
Marcus #67

(P.S. Next time please give me a bit more of a tow when lapping me http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif)

[gran racing]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">So the racers that are buying Hoosiers now would simply be mounting new cheap tires at every race. So there would still be no economic equality created by a spec tire. Ask a Spec Miata driver about new Hankooks versus old Hankooks.</font>

Perfect! So people that are spending more money will be going slower then people that use all of their tire. The Toyo RA-1s DO get faster as they become more "worn out". Think of it this way, they start out like a real DOT should look like then work wear down and start getting more of a slick look. We've compared lap times from a new Toyo to a very used Toyo. The used one is faster. Pretty freakn' cool if you ask me.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">If you want to race with a spec tire there is a class for you! It's called Spec Miata. One of the things I love about IT-7 is the freedom to modify my car how I choose. IT-7 is not supposed to be a spec class.</font>

That is just silly. As far as I know, tires are not the only thing spec with the Miatas. Making a spec tire does not impact the real things that are different about the cars - not tires.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Bottom line is the frontrunners will still be the frontrunners</font>

Umm, o.k. The point of a spec tire would be to save money for everyone. Sure, it helps equalize things with tires and that is a bad thing? Who else will this help? The front runners!

I've been a mid-pack ITA driver (on a good day). Because of this, there has been no incentive to lay out the cash and buy Hoosiers. Does it really matter if I finish 12th or 13th? So I have been using Toyos (als used Kumos). Now that I'm moving to ITB, for me to have a shot at winning I absolutely must use Hoosiers. Well that stinks. My tire budget just blew up. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif

I would absolutely love to race in a class that has a spec tire. Heck, going along with what Jake said have Hoosier develop a tire that lasts twice as long as their existing tire and make that the spec tire. Fine by me.


------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[dickita15]

I too am quite suprised by the resitance to a spec tire, although I am getting quite used to having people here disagree with me. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
heck tires are the biggest part of my budget and I would love a spec tire. now I know in IT that is impossible as we use so many different wheel and tire sizes, but if i was running a class that could specify a limited number of sizes like IT7 it just seems like a natural. I am not a fan of spec miata but I am jealous of there abilty to run all year on 2 sets of tires.
dick

[This message has been edited by dickita15 (edited December 25, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

I am surprised too...

It reminds me of wine.

Do I enjoy a great wine? Sure, and I can tell the difference. But at a hundred a bottle? No, there are plenty of "reasonable" wines that are really good. The cost/benefit ratio is out of line.

I see the same thing in tires, except that it seems that half the table likes the mega expensive wine, and the rest have to pay that rate as well, or not even be sitting at the same table.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Hotshoe]

...Okay lets look at this from a "stuck in a rut" perspective. I see a lot of opinions from people that do not have a dog in this fight. Which makes me wonder why the concern? This is a SEDiv class, and if the change is made it will only effect us.
...Seems to me that a few of the people that are making comments have also stated class philosophy that "everyone knows the rules before they choose the car they build" Hoosier and Toyo where there before IT7 so what happened to that soap box?
...Hoosier tires may be quicker than the other tire brands. So why not do this the Democratic way. Ban them. Run anything else you want. Seems like the prejudice thing to do. Lets run BFG R1s the bottom of the barrel junk. I run a set of these for test days to help set my cars balance. And they are unshaven and still run 2.25s @ VIR. Oh, why do I run BFGs? I prefer to flat spot junk tires instead of good ones.
...Bottom line, Class philosophy states that we run ITA rules. I knew that when I built my car and I would prefer for the rules to stay that way. Especially when we are being compared to ITA all the time (Thanks to the ITB petitioners).
...If someone wants to run a spec tired car I would suggest a SRF. I have run Yokohamas and they are the cheapest tire out there. Since this seems to be the reasoning behind the tire problem is cost.
.... And when all is said and done let us toast with a bottle of .....vintage.....Thunderbird.

......Merry Christmas everyone

[dickita15]

rick
don't get upset, we yankees don't get a vote. I just mentioned my suprise at some of the opinions expressed. I guess I just don't get it. frostbite must have gotten to my brain.
dick patullo

[Hotshoe]

Dick
...Don't tell anyone but, I'm a Yankee too. I served my country in the USAF as a law enforcement investigator. And then got left here in Goldsboro, N.C.
...So now I get to pick on "them" all the time. LOL
...I'm still kind of partial to my home town, Punxsutawney,Pa. Home of Phil the groundhog.

...Rick Thompson

[joeracerx95]

Originally posted by Marcus Miller:
Yeah, but you got beat by a girl! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif
Marcus #67

(P.S. Next time please give me a bit more of a tow when lapping me http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif)



http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif Good one! She's also the one that took that one pole away from me.

But I did feel pretty good managing to finish third with a broken Watts link. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

I'll see what I can do on that tow.



[This message has been edited by joeracerx95 (edited December 26, 2004).]

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
I see a lot of opinions from people that do not have a dog in this fight. Which makes me wonder why the concern? This is a SEDiv class, and if the change is made it will only effect us.

Only effect you in the short term. It could have the effect of the idea of a spec tire becoming more generally accepted. Sometimes, those without a vested interest in the outcome can offer a more objective opinion. However, I do have a dog in this fight--indirectly. The tire I race on is more expensive and lasts less time than the 13" Hoosier. There is only one other tire manufactured that is approved in the class and you will not run up front on it. So those who choose to use it are those without the rest of the things required to run up front. I'd love it if we all used that other cheaper, slower, longer lasting tire because then I could utilize that same dollar for more seat time. I'd love to see spec tires more widely accepted.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Seems to me that a few of the people that are making comments have also stated class philosophy that \"everyone knows the rules before they choose the car they build\" Hoosier and Toyo where there before IT7 so what happened to that soap box?</font>

I'm still on it. I knew going in that if I wanted to run up front, this (expensive tire) is what it is going to take. Doesn't mean that I would not support a cost reducing measure that affects all makes and models equally. I am not willing to go to the cheaper tire if others don't, but certainly willing to do so if everyone else does. If it gets to the point where I think I can win on that other tire...I'll do it, even if I believe I am losing a little time relative to the other tires. The more important thing is I am not losing time and position to my competitors.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Class philosophy states that we run ITA rules. I knew that when I built my car and I would prefer for the rules to stay that way.</font>

Now there is a point I can get my head around. If you want the flexibility to run ITA or IT-7 and still have a chance at being competitive in each without requiring two sets of tires and two different optimum setup's, I can understand that. You are able to now, a spec tire for IT-7 only would change that. Some might say "tough crap--at least you have the option of two different classes." Some people don't seem to like it when you have more options than them because you did your homework. Now they'd be changing that after the fact---not cool.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">If someone wants to run a spec tired car I would suggest a SRF.</font>

Ex-nay on the Spec Racer Ord-fay. I have no interest in running that class. I prefer enough spec to know that my driving is what is making the most difference, but want enough freedom to tinker a little bit and have more variety between cars than the number and paint job.

I don't feel spec tires work in all situations. I have raced in three classes with a spec tire.

#1. Pro series with manufacturer support. Had to run their tire. It was cheap (Hoosier Dirt Stockers at $60/ea mounted) AND Hoosier contributed to end of year point fund. Good for everyone other than Mc Creary.

#2. Go kart spec hard tire. Allowed us to spend money on other go fast stuff and race more for the same buck. This class rotated the spec compound year to year--Bridgestone one year, Dunlop the next and then Vega the year after that and continued the cycle. Two spec tire classes out of 19 meant that it didn't hurt the tire importers/distributers too bad because they still had 17 other classes with an open tire rule. The drawback was that dealers knew you had to run that tire and prices went up about 10-20% that year. However, those same kart shops that were only selling me 2 sets of tires a year instead of 15 were now doing my motor 6 times a year instead of 3. Where they were enjoying a larger margin on the motor instead of the tires.

#3. Club Formula Ford--Tire was cheap and could last 20 or more heat cycles. Problem was that it lost about .5 second a lap by the third heat cycle. This meant that if you wanted to run up front you needed newer tires all the time anyway. I don't feel that is the case with the TOYO. However---If the old toyo is faster because of the shorter treadblocks then the fast guys will come out with new shaved to 1/32" toyos all the time and then you have done nothing to reduce costs. Only made it mandatory that you show up with new shaved toyos all the time.

Merry Christmas!


[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited December 26, 2004).]

[gran racing]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I see a lot of opinions from people that do not have a dog in this fight. Which makes me wonder why the concern? This is a SEDiv class, and if the change is made it will only effect us.</font>

Fine. Let me restate it then. I would love it if IT as a whole used Toyo RA-1s as their spec tire. (Or another tire that lasts long.) Heck, I'd be fine using the BFGs.

What do most people like about running IT cars versus other spec classes? The fact that my car will have advantages and disadvantages compared to other cars. That's what makes it intersting. Other spec cars can not say that is true. Does having a spec tire change any of this? No, not at all.

World Challenge runs Toyos only, and that doesn't seem to hurt their uniqeness between cars.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
...Hoosier tires may be quicker than the other tire brands. So why not do this the Democratic way. Ban them. Run anything else you want. Seems like the prejudice thing to do. Lets run BFG R1s the bottom of the barrel junk. [/B]

.....Come on now, if you are going to pick apart what I say don't skip over the good "down to the truth" stuff.
...Seems to me that we have some people present that will buy cheap land next to an airport or maybe even a race track. Then after the house is built they want something done about the noise.
...So read the quote above, seems like the only logical solution. I'm not endorsing any particular tire, and considering that this is CLUB racing I don't see where anyone else should be either.

...Now this should be interesting...LOL

....Rick Thompson

[Boswoj]

OK - a few point to add for the more OPEN MINDED here:

1) The only dog required in this fight is an OPINION. Well thought out, reasonably presented opinions are preferable, but even stupid, whiney, poorly concieved opinions are protected by the basic tenant of free speech. If I find myself in your neck of the woods for some unknown reason, I would love to come out and race in your class against anyone here is who is a driver. I competed in 20 races last year over a large geographic area, so it is not inconcievable that it could happen!

2) A good idea is a good idea.....it's that simple. I don't slam you for not agreeing with me, because this forum's whole reason for being is the free exchange of ideas! At least I am open minded enough to give you a chance to convince me of your point. (Before punching several gaping logical holes through it's soft and self-serving underbelly, of course!){meant as a joke, no disrespect intended!}

3) Yes, if the spec tire was BFG R1's or Falken Azenzi's or Joe Bob's Cheap as Hell Hard as Rock "Floor it and steer like crazy" YeeHaw Racin' Specials I'm fine with it. I agree totally with the poster above - I'm here for the race not for the ride. I want to know whos fastest, not who's car is fastest. I just watched the 5th Gear episode where the guy bought Schumachers 2002 F1 car and he intends to drive exhibitions all over the world. If it's just about the money, go buy that car and cross America setting the outright lap record at every single track in the country on lapping days. If it's about RACING, then lets make sure we encourage drivers to come out and challenge us without scaring them away with our tire budgets. THAT is what the IT classes are really about. If IT just isn't fast enough for you and you want to really find out about tire performance and big budgets, get into a Production or better yet a GT car. By your own description of what is important to you in a tire, you haven't even scratched the surface with DOT radials!!!!! Your favorite Hoosier DOT tires are absolute RAGS compared to Goodyear and Hoosier slicks. (Imagine the difference between RA-1's and worn out snow tires and you get the picture)

Boswoj

[This message has been edited by Boswoj (edited December 26, 2004).]

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
.....Come on now, if you are going to pick apart what I say don't skip over the good "down to the truth" stuff.

I didn't mean to present it like I was picking it apart. I replied with my post structured like that in an attempt to make it easier to read.

I omitted the section you quoted above because it didn't make sense to me what you were trying to say. Therefore, I didn't have an opinion one way or the other.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...Seems to me that we have some people present that will buy cheap land next to an airport or maybe even a race track. Then after the house is built they want something done about the noise.</font>

Not even close to what I am about.

It is apparent that we have different philosophies. That's okay. I don't understand your logic about not wanting to do anything that might slow your car down, or changing its' class "status". Anymore than you probably understand my desire to keep equipment required to run up front less expensive.

I have always raced slow inexpensive cars. I race a vee for crying out loud. A Formula Ford before that, IT cars as well. They are all slow, just some slower than others.

I use the fast tires because I need them to win. Do I use them because a 1:41 feels faster than a 1:43 and puts a bigger smile on my face? No. A 1:43 will put a big smile on my face when everyone else is turning 1:43.001's. F1 tires, Hoosier radials or whatever...it is like putting lipstick on a pig.

on edit--quote brackets messed up.

[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited December 26, 2004).]

[Hotshoe]

Boswaj,
...Let me clue you in on what exactly is happening here since no one has.
...Blair Stitt (an IT7 Driver) is sending out a ballot to vote for a spec tire. The only choice is Toyo RA-1s. That is the only choice.
...That is where the problem starts. I couldn't care less about the spec tire deal. Doesn't matter. Truth is Blair doesn't like Hoosier, thus the meaning for my comment.
...Instead of compromising all the other brands why not tell the truth and Ban the one you don't like. I think it might push the maker of the tire to maybe better it's product.
...To exclude all, is not fair to the suppliers. But to chastise one until they get in line is better business. And thus better for all of us.
...Steve started this thread because he runs Kumhos. Good tire, why can't it be a choice? I hear of no problems with any other tire so why not address the problem directly and confront Hoosier? Instead of disguising it with a (what did you call it? whiney? poorly conceived?)ballot.
...I believe we all should have a choice. Maybe even more than one. Not based on one persons prejudice.

...Now you know the rest of the story...

...Rick Thompson


[This message has been edited by Hotshoe (edited December 26, 2004).]

[Andy Bettencourt]

Is it REALLY the reason? Because he doesn't LIKE Hoosier? I doubt it. I bet he has the same 'issue' with the GY GSC-S. They are great race tires that don't happen to last very long.

The Hankook and the Toyo are on par with each other. The new Hoosier, the new Kumho and the GY are all faster and just don't last as long.

I still haven't heard a good reason NOT to have a spec tire. All it does is take a crap-load of money out of the season formula. It still takes a TON of development to make them go fast within your own application.

Since IT7 is a self-policing entity, I think a spec tire fits well. For those of you wanting to be able to run both IT7 and ITA, then having a set of Hoosier's - or whatever will cost you no more than it did before...

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Boswoj]

Guys, let me just say that I'm not going after anyone here. I come here because when I'm not actually racing, I like to talk about racing or working on the car (kind of a one trick pony, huh?). I give and get lots of great ideas here, and the occasional lively discussion is just a bonus.

I like just about any idea that cuts cost without hurting the overall competitiveness of racing. The truth is, the tire manufacturers are just giving us what we want and it's up to us to rethink why we want it! Racing has never been cheap, but it is currently headed towards being even more exclusionary because of the advance of technology. Sophisticated suspensions, incredible engine and drivetrain development, and unreal advances in tire technology have all come at a cost. Street cars now perform better than the last generation's race cars, and racecars are significantly lowering lap records all over the planet. One of the biggest developments has been tire technology, and one of the biggest costs has been the accompanying tire budget. REAL IT racing means large, closely matched grids of "relatively" affordable cars. If the SCCA really wanted to start equalizing perfomance potential on IT cars they could slow cars up with tire requirements a whole lot quicker than with weight or intake restrictors! (shhhh! No! i'm not suggesting anything of the sort - just establishing a point!) I don't have an axe to grind with ANY of the tire suppliers as I have at least tried most of them and all make a pretty damn good tire for the track. If anything, one of the best reasons to have a spec tire is to go to the manufacturers and let them bid to become your spec tire supplier - most affordable gets the nod, and a guarantee of good sales volume for a year.

Come on now - that extra set of tires cost as much as four race entries around here. I would rather run ten races at 1:42 laps in a pack with all my friends, than run six at 1:40. But hey, that's just me.

Boswoj


[This message has been edited by Boswoj (edited December 27, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Boswoj (edited December 27, 2004).]

[GEO46]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
[B Which makes me wonder why the concern? This is a SEDiv class, and if the change is made it will only effect us.
[/B]

Oh wait a minute, we also run IT7 here in Cendiv. While I personnly don't have a dog in this fight, (hoping to run a converted IT7 in EP), several of my friends do. We figure to run up front, you need Hoosiers. Just part of the cost to play the game.

[Andy Bettencourt]

IT7 is a Regional class. Each Div can do WHATEVER THEY WANT. If you feel a spec tire is a good thing, DO IT. If not, vote it down.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[ddewhurst]

It's my understanding the IT7 is a sub class to ITA & has the exact same rules as ITA.

Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
CenDiv ITA/7 #14
David

[Andy Bettencourt]

It is a sub-class - but it is REGIONAL only. That means it can be changed per the majority decision of the competitors in that Region. If you want a spec tire, no problem. If you want wings, no problem - it just has to be voted on and rubber-stamped by your local comp-board.

IT7 doesn't exist in the rulebook, it's a class that was formed because the 1st gen RX-7 isn't competitive in ITA. Each region who runs it just adopts the ITA rules - they don't have to.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
IT7 doesn't exist in the rulebook, it's a class that was formed because the 1st gen RX-7 isn't competitive in ITA. AB

[/B]
.Come on Andy, how about cutting us some slack. Let us amend this to say: it is a class that was formed because the 1st gen RX-7 drivers want to compete with only themselves. That is the REAL reason.
...Having our own class made it easier to police the entrants. Make specific tools to check ports. And train tech inspectors how to check carburetors, exhaust ports etc.
...So let us get rid of this notion before some people start to believe it. And anyway, we in the SEDiv do not have much trouble with ITA cars. So we will let that horse rest in peace.
....I have been here since IT7s conception and still think it is a good idea for our region considering we had over 70 cars entered in this class last season.
...And in keeping in line with this thread I think we should have more of a choice.

__1. Should IT7 have a Spec Tire: Yes/or/No

__2. If So, Please choose one: A.B.C.or D.

Then let the majority rule.

...Instead of what we got: Yes Toyo /or/ No

This is the SCCA not Russia



[This message has been edited by Hotshoe (edited December 27, 2004).]

[Mike Cox]

I too have been in IT7 since the beginning.

The way the spec tire ballot is worded is "Toyo or no Toyo", No alternatives!

Rick runs Hoosier along with many other SEDIV IT7 drivers and Steve Saney, I and others run Kuhmos. That is our choice based on the way the class was organized under IT rules.

By forcing me and Steve (and others running Kuhmos) to run Toyos, it will impeed our ability to receive contingency money as we have for the past few years from our "preferred" tire manufacturer. Therefore, it will greatly deter us from racing and therein will be detrimental to the class instead of expanding the class as we all should focus on.

I run Kuhmos for two reasons:
First and foremost, they are fast! (real close to Hoosiers)
Second when I win a regional race, I get $150.00 credit from Kuhmo towards more tires.
3 wins in a regional weekend = $450.00.

A new set of 205/60-13 Kuhmos delivered cost me $540.00.

Why should I be penalized because I have:
1. worked harder on my car.
2. worked harder on my setup.
3. am able to drive my car harder knowing I will have enough money to buy another set.

It comes down to this and excuse me if this sounds arrogant:

if you want to run with the SEDIV regional and SARRC Champions, put up the money like we do or shut up.

Don't try to brings us down, improve and catch up to us.

Mike Cox
2000,2002 & 2004 CFR IT7 Regional Champion



[This message has been edited by Mike Cox (edited December 27, 2004).]

[Quickshoe]

How many IT7 racers in the SE Div are we talking about? If you had a choice of several compounds becoming the spec tire what are the chances that one would receive a majority vote?

If you would support a spec tire but not the choice of TOYO then mark your ballot "NO"...if enough don't want the Toyo the spec tire, it won't pass and you could continue to use your tire of choice.

You could also submit another proposal that says would you approve the use of only the following compounds? "Kumho V710, V700 or Toyo Proxes RA-1"

It is not Russia that is why it is being voted on.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:

.Come on Andy, how about cutting us some slack. Let us amend this to say: it is a class that was formed because the 1st gen RX-7 drivers want to compete with only themselves. That is the REAL reason.

OK, two reasons it is then.....



...Having our own class made it easier to police the entrants. Make specific tools to check ports. And train tech inspectors how to check carburetors, exhaust ports etc.


None of which is any real indication of true legality....




...So let us get rid of this notion before some people start to believe it. And anyway, we in the SEDiv do not have much trouble with ITA cars. So we will let that horse rest in peace.

Unless you run at Road Atlanta, where the fastest 7 was many seconds off the ITA pace...

Ask the guys in CenDiv about the reasons THEY started the class......I doubt that "horse" will ever rest.


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited December 27, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited December 27, 2004).]

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Unless you run at Road Atlanta, where the fastest 7 was many seconds off the ITA pace...

[/B]

...And for the record, how many second were you off the IT7 pace? I believe it was four, right?
...Now lets see, you are going to come back with something like "Well I did not see you there" And you are right, you did not.
...So before you stick your foot in your mouth let me inform you that I had plans to go. A crew of my best friends were going to go to support me and my efforts but, I had a set back earlier this year concerning my wife and so my priorities were in line and racing took a back seat.
...Look at it this way, I am involved as to what goes on in my region and my class. I know why it was founded and those that made it possible. And I also know the reason it was started. So if I tell you and you don't believe me then what is your problem.
...I remember two things that you said in some other posts that I would like to reiterate on. One was that you may make the trip to VIR and, the other was that you wanted moved to ITB because you were tired of the ITA cars "handing you your a$$"
...Tell you what. I hope I'm able to be there. Maybe Mike, Steve, Brian, Don, Bob, Paul, and Robert will tell you the same thing about IT7. Then will you believe it?
...You will also get to see the ITA cars get handed their a$$e$.
...If you make things up after you learn the truth what does that make you?

Enough said.....

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
...And for the record, how many second were you off the IT7 pace? I believe it was four, right?

What does MY time at the track have to do with anything? Have I ever said I was the fastest car or the best driver? A Road Atlant expert? NO! My comments are based on the fact that an RX-7 has NEVER run at RA anywhere near the front. Period. And around the country, where ITA has strong cars, the situation is similar.



...Now lets see, you are going to come back with something like "Well I did not see you there" And you are right, you did not.

I don't see how your presence (or lack of) at the event has much to do with the fact that the 7s were seconds off the pace.



...Look at it this way, I am involved as to what goes on in my region and my class. I know why it was founded and those that made it possible. And I also know the reason it was started. So if I tell you and you don't believe me then what is your problem.


Exactly...you know your region. But in other parts of the country, IT7 was incorporated for other reasons. Reread my post...where did I say anything about not believing you? I think I said that there were TWO reasons.



...I remember two things that you said in some other posts that I would like to reiterate on. One was that you may make the trip to VIR and,....

VIR sounds like a fun track...we are seeing what the schedule holds for the year. Thanks for the invite.



...If you make things up after you learn the truth what does that make you?

Enough said.....



I don't follow...make things up? Am I making things up about CenDiv? Please explain clearly with less veiling.




------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Quickshoe]

For those of you (plural) who find it more about the ride than the race:

Please explain to me why you stop at "IT" levels of prep. So I can see it from another perspective---not trying to be a smartass eventhough it may sound that way. Why wouldn't you throw a set of slicks on it and go even faster in production?

[GEO46]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
IT7 is a Regional class. Each Div can do WHATEVER THEY WANT. If you feel a spec tire is a good thing, DO IT. If not, vote it down.

AB



True, my point in qouting "Hotshoe", was that he made it sound as if IT7 was ONLY a SeDiv class. I just wanted to point out that it just isn't so.

GEO46

[GEO46]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Ask the guys in CenDiv about the reasons THEY started the class......I doubt that "horse" will ever rest.

[/B]

My perception on the origin of IT7 in CenDiv was that we were tired of the Hundas. They were either A:miss classed, B: superior chassis/engine that responds better to ITA mods, or C: miss classed. You vote on which. Okay, that was said somewhat tongue in cheek, but not much.

Which "tire" would I vote on? All of the above. Need I say I'm against a spec tire????

GEO46

[GEO46]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
For those of you (plural) who find it more about the ride than the race:

Please explain to me why you stop at "IT" levels of prep. So I can see it from another perspective---not trying to be a smartass eventhough it may sound that way. Why wouldn't you throw a set of slicks on it and go even faster in production?

Hmmm, I think I JUST MIGHT DO THAT IN 05. Not that I'm tired of IT7, and I'll keep being involved as a crewperson/maybe even as a Co-driver.

Still, that is my plan for 05. Take an ill prepared IT7, gut the door, add windshield clips... etc. Bolt on a set of slicks and go. Talk about challenging yourself?


So, put that in your smoke and pipe it!!!

GEO46

[Quickshoe]

Going to EP with an underdeveloped IT car on slicks will be evident that you are, indeed, more into the ride than the race. I won't understand why, but at least you are having fun. That must be the WHY. To each his own.

I don't have much of a problem with others having differing opinions. I ask about the reasons for their opinion in an attempt to see another side of the issue and get a response like yours....tells me more about you than the stance against the issue.

Pass the pipe Geo46 you've been Bogart'n for too long

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by GEO46:
True, my point in qouting "Hotshoe", was that he made it sound as if IT7 was ONLY a SeDiv class. I just wanted to point out that it just isn't so.

GEO46



...Whoa Now, I'm just making it known that the vote on a Spec Tire is only going to effect us here in the SEDiv. Since this is only a Regional class.
...I wish you luck in your EP venture. If I didn't have so much work into the detail on my IT7 car I would join you. I have driven an EP RX7, it's quite a bit different with slicks. You will enjoy it.

...Rick Thompson

[racerpepe]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
Boswaj,
...Let me clue you in on what exactly is happening here since no one has.
...Blair Stitt (an IT7 Driver) is sending out a ballot to vote for a spec tire. The only choice is Toyo RA-1s. That is the only choice.
...That is where the problem starts. I couldn't care less about the spec tire deal. Doesn't matter. Truth is Blair doesn't like Hoosier, thus the meaning for my comment.
...Instead of compromising all the other brands why not tell the truth and Ban the one you don't like. I think it might push the maker of the tire to maybe better it's product.
...To exclude all, is not fair to the suppliers. But to chastise one until they get in line is better business. And thus better for all of us.
...Steve started this thread because he runs Kumhos. Good tire, why can't it be a choice? I hear of no problems with any other tire so why not address the problem directly and confront Hoosier? Instead of disguising it with a (what did you call it? whiney? poorly conceived?)ballot.
...I believe we all should have a choice. Maybe even more than one. Not based on one persons prejudice.

...Now you know the rest of the story...

...Rick Thompson


[This message has been edited by Hotshoe (edited December 26, 2004).]

Ricky don't put words in my mouth. i love hoosiers. hate the price. i never claimed to be 1/2 the driver you are. growing clases spec rx-7 spec miata. best racing trans-am -spec tire. world challange spec tire. hoosier pays you. i haven't heard of you giving that money to a noodle eating racer so he/she can afford the same deal you get. toyo everyone gets the same deal no favoritism. hoosier is a great tire but it is a slick with 2 grooves. hardley what was intended when the rules called for a DOT tire. try to get your car inspected with those. IT-7 was started to help equlize cars. can anyone say crx. IT-7 was started by drivers for drivers. i want to see IT-7 grow like some of the other classes mentioned. the poorly concieved ballot is pretty much the same way IT-7 was started. how soon we forget. if the majority do not want a spec tire so be it. i'm not going to wine about not getting my way this is for IT-7. my slow midpack self will still toyos. with the money i save i'm going on a 2 week cruise. i guess i'll see you there because you are twice the driver i am and win free tires.thanks for your time and vote yes or no. p.s. Ricky if you want to put any other words in my mouth you have my # blair

[racerpepe]

almost forgot fyi last set of toyos $492.00 mounted balanced and shaved by appalachian tire at the track. any other ideas on improving IT-7 talk to your fellow drivers this is our class. lets have fun out there. i know i will. my tow vehicle is a yellow and white ambulance for pete's sake. stop by i'll buy you a beer. thanks again please vote yes or no.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by racerpepe:
..... IT-7 was started to help equlize cars. can anyone say crx. blair

If I read this correctly here is an SE guy who is crediting the CRX with the origin of IT7.

Now...I am sure I'll hear how he's all wet, but you all can see how such a concept might be common...if the guys who were responsible for the class think it's cause the car can't compete with the top ITA car (s)....



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Hotshoe]

Blair,

...Hope you have fun on your cruise. Wish I could get time to do things like that. I haven't had any time off in two years.
...I tried to call you two different times and you had already left for the day. I also called your cell phone and left a message. So?
...Seems funny to me how Jake keeps jumping on the reason we started IT7. I bet he doesn't even know who Stan, Todd, and Lee are.
...Only reason I said anything about your ballot was that there was only one choice for a spec tire. Good idea but why only one tire?
...You said in your post that you did not like the price of Hoosier Tires (I know that) that IS A good REASON. I did not say anything to the contrary.
...So, I only stated facts. I just do not want to see anyone vote for something just because they do not like the ONLY other choice.

....Rick

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
If I read this correctly here is an SE guy who is crediting the CRX with the origin of IT7.

Now...I am sure I'll hear how he's all wet, but you all can see how such a concept might be common...if the guys who were responsible for the class think it's cause the car can't compete with the top ITA car (s)....



Jake,

...You have no idea why we started IT7. I've tried to explain, but. Maybe one day you will talk to one of the three guys that worked so hard to make it possible. We have our reasons. So how about stopping with the "cannot compete in ITA" BS. Every time you get a chance to jump on that bandwagon you do. Give us a break!
...We do not have any trouble running with ITA cars. Most of the time the top two or three in IT7 are in front of the ITA cars at the finish. So just because it is a problem in other regions doesn't mean it is in ours.

...This thread was started because of a Spec Tire issue. Maybe we should reserve these comments for a thread that pertains to what you want to talk about all the time?

...So I guess you are going to say that I'm all wet? Yeah I am, Misty is more like it.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
Jake,

So how about stopping with the "cannot compete in ITA" BS. Every time you get a chance to jump on that bandwagon you do. Give us a break!
...We do not have any trouble running with ITA cars. Most of the time the top two or three in IT7 are in front of the ITA cars at the finish. So just because it is a problem in other regions doesn't mean it is ours.

Rick, regardless of why YOU started IT7, please don't pretend that your IT7 car can keep up with Serra's Integra or Stretch's 240SX - on ANY track. (there must be some sort or 1G RX-7 curse at Road Atlanta because the top IT7 cars aren't even in the same TIME ZONE) Like in all of the IT classes, there is a performance envelope. The 1G RX-7 just isn't at the top of the performance envelope in ITA anymore. Props to you and your fellow IT7 drivers in your Region for developing into big fish in a little pond. Venture out to deap waters where the big boys play and see the sharks bite.

No offense intended, but Jake is speaking from a 10,000 foot view and you are looking at life in ITA at your home track.

Seriously, no offense intended, we all respect your development and driving talent but you need to step back from you local point of view.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Hotshoe]

Andy,

...And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I could care less about somebody banging on me. Or how somebody else views a particular subject. That is the American way.

..But I thought we were talking about a Spec Tire.

...I've never said anything about how I drive. Nor do I care when remarks are made making me look like I do so. So please don't talk like I do.
...A ten thousand foot high view is nice when you know what you are talking about. I keep my views narrowed down to my back yard because I do know what is going on. And I keep my nose in my own business. This reminds me of the thread that you started then David broke in a little off topic and then all the sudden he was the leper. Same difference.

...All I am trying to do is get a fair shake on this spec tire deal.

...Let us leave the rest of this for another topic. Why does it always have to come to this petty argument? It did not pass the comp board so that says a little bit, doesn't it?

[This message has been edited by Hotshoe (edited December 31, 2004).]

[Hotshoe]

[quote]Originally posted by Mike Cox:
[B]Rick, I need your number again. changed phones and lost it

Mike,

...Call me, my number is 919-735-0438 This is my 24hr Wrecker Service Phone number.

...I need to talk to you about this Spec Tire issue.

...Thanks,



[This message has been edited by Hotshoe (edited December 31, 2004).]

[Hammer]

Blair,

When you put together the proposal for the spec tire for IT7, did you approach Toyo to see what they would offer racers if the proposal went through like discounted prices or contingency money. I like the idea of a spec tire for IT7, but it would be nice if the tire manufacturer offered something because they would see an increase in sales and exposure. I think the tire manufacturers for Spec Miata have some type of contingency program. Toyo, Hoosier and Kumho should be approached and told what you are proposing for IT7 and see what they have to offer the racers to make it worth are while and whether they can provide the number of tires needed during a season.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
It did not pass the comp board so that says a little bit, doesn't it?

[This message has been edited by Hotshoe (edited December 31, 2004).]

Just to set the record straight, it never made it to the comp board because the ITAC didn't recommend it.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[racerpepe]

Originally posted by Hammer:
Blair,

When you put together the proposal for the spec tire for IT7, did you approach Toyo to see what they would offer racers if the proposal went through like discounted prices or contingency money. I like the idea of a spec tire for IT7, but it would be nice if the ire manufacturer offered something because they would see an increase in sales and exposure. I think the tire manufacturers for Spec Miata have some type of contingency program. Toyo, Hoosier and Kumho should be approached and told what you are proposing for IT7 and see what they have to offer the racers to make it worth are while and whether they can provide the number of tires needed during a season.

future reference i'm not a big computer person so if you want a quick responce feel free to call me. my # is on the ballot. sometimes i go weeks without checking my email.i'm also a lousy typer.fist this issue has been floating around for years. i just somehow became the epicenter.so i decided to see what the IT-7 drivers wanted.almost everyone i talked to wanted a spec tire but they also wanted track support, good price and good longevity.toyo kept coming up. spec 7 has run them for years as a spec tire.i personelly have run bfg's for years but they are no longer available soi bought my first set of toyos in may.(still using same set). i spoke to toyo & appalachian tire.toyo used to rebate 10 or 15 dollars a tire but say it was easier to drop price.now they are 115 shaved by appalachian.i think 9 less ? not shaved.majority of drivers thst i spoke with were familiar with the toyo and felt they were the way to go. they have the support the price and the longevity.i personelly believe this major cost reduction may help bring more drivers to IT-7. this is driver driven and down the road there is no doubt that this gives a some leverage with tire manufacturers. thanks blair

[ITS5GB]

So what happens if the SEDiv adopts a spec tire for IT7 and the guys that run IT7 in the Cendiv or ITA anywhere else run what they want and then everyone shows up at the ARRC? What happens then? Are the guys in the SEDiv going to have to change set up on their cars and buy Hoosiers to compete with guys from other regions that come down for just that weekend or will the SEDiv force guys from other divisions to conform to the spec tire?

[lateapex911]

Well, IF our Region decided to have IT&, I wouldn't want to do it WITHOUT a spec tire, and I think the Toyo is probably the best choice..for the class as a whole. Although a few guys might not like it, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Now if we don't have IT7, as we don't, and the SE does go with a Toyo spec tire, I will need to get some Toyos for the ARRC, should I choose to attend.

But hey..I would have had to spend at LEAST two sets of Hoosiers for the weekend anyway, so I'd STILL be saving money.

Would I be at a bit more of a disadvantage to the guys who run them all season? Sure...but those guys have more time around RA than I do by a factor of 5 probably, so.....what the hey!

Besides...a set of Hoosiers is $800 mounted for me, and since I'd be saving a set, I could set up my car on Toyos at a test day and still be money ahead.

Maybe CenDiv will follow the lead, or have a gentlemans agreement to run whatever the SE does. IMHO, of course....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited January 03, 2005).]

[Ben 84 RX-7]

Sorry to jump in off topic here...but Jake I never heard back from you to see if you can accept payment through your paypal account! I still need to pay you for the header!!

Ben

[lateapex911]

I think I had some email virus scanning program issues....and the email I sent never made it..let me retry!

So, Ben you're thinking of Hoosiers, right?...if your club disallowed them would you be happy or sad?

See? Back on topic! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Ben 84 RX-7]

Personally I would be thrilled!! Because I can't afford them! The class I run in is budget oriented so us low cash guys can still get on track. I don't mind losing to a guy faster than me...but I hate losing due to money.

[Hammer]

When are the votes for the Spec Tire going to be tallied.

[instigator]

Well it sounds like a bunch of belly aking in here.
So here it is. i have 2 it7 cars i did not get to vote on this.
I find no fareness amoung this topic, but i will say this ricky has been beaten by the toyo tire in savana, kershaw.So maybe it is not the tire but the car set up and desire of the driver to win. Cost is a decision all of us must face ,and if you are lossing to other drivers look at what you are doing wrong.Fix it do not blame the equipment as I have learned by placing another driver in may cars,and found the driver was the most important part of a winning car I do agree both tires turn aprox. the same timeslook at the arc during qualifing, a toyo tire set pole for it7. Yes it was hoosier that got the pole later that day but by what, .03sec spec tires will only show how far off your set up is for your driving style

drop this issue for the good of this class

[This message has been edited by instigator (edited January 13, 2005).]

[instigator]

almost forgot i am a part of the southeaster region why did i not get a ballot to vote seems mighty suspicious to me only a select few members get to vote and yes i raced this past year

[Eagle7]

Originally posted by instigator:
DROP THIS ISSUE for the good of this class
I was SURE that your "Shift" key was broken, but then you go and prove me wrong. Now if you could just use it a little more and find the "." key I could probably read what you're trying to say.

------------------
Marty Doane
ITS RX-7 #13
CenDiv WMR

[instigator]

Eagle 7
if you wish to be an english major or teacher I am sure the school systems could use you. Read the words. I have full confidence in you desifering the message.

I have received several phone calls from those who figured out the words ,and have recieved a very positve respons from them

Drop the issue, refers to the spec tire issue

[This message has been edited by instigator (edited January 12, 2005).]

[Boswoj]

"Instigator"

Even though there are some wildly divergent trains of thought here, I think the members of this forum make a real attempt to respect each others right to an opinion. We respect yours as well. I think that two points apply to your post. Lots of people make a typo, or spelling error here - the posts are definitely not graded! Your post is so poorly written that it is difficult to read, much less take seriously. Being able to punctuate and capitalize doesn't make someone an english teacher, it allows them to accurately communicate with their peers. Another important distinction that often gets forgotten in internet forums is that you must attempt to write VERY clearly, because it is difficult to properly convey the "feel" of what you have posted even if you ARE an english teacher. There is a clear difference between "I am not in favor of a spec tire" and "DROP THIS NOW". One is a "vote" or "opinion" and the other is an "order" or "threat". This forum is primarily used by drivers for a civilized exchange of ideas. A well thought out argument may change some of these peoples minds, but ordering them to do so will probably hurt your cause.

[leegrx7]

To the instigator----e-mail me with your Phone # or call 865-494-7889 for,info on how to get an IT7 spec tire ballot ,
[email protected]

[instigator]

ok i will go back and rewrite this to satisfy the form. I find no threat in drop this issue. I do find it puzzling that any one would. i belive that it shows a members opinion in how disappionted he is in the whole process and the fact no one has made an attempt to place other choices on the ballot that were less expensive and it also shows the lack of research on this issue.

[ddewhurst]

instigator, the signature may say a lot about you. If you have a desire to be taken seriously try using a real name when you post.

Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David Dewhurst
CenDiv ITA/7 #14

[instigator]

do not judge abook by its cover

[Eagle7]

Originally posted by instigator:
Eagle 7
if you wish to be an english major or teacher I am sure the school systems could use you. Read the words. I have full confidence in you desifering the message.

I have received several phone calls from those who figured out the words ,and have recieved a very positve respons from them

Drop the issue, refers to the spec tire issue
Thank you very much. Seriously. This really was very much easier to read and I appreciate it.

------------------
Marty Doane
ITS RX-7 #13
CenDiv WMR

[crazyshoe]

Heres my two cents. I'd throw in more money but I could only find two pennies on the floor.

I'm all for a spec tire. I've been racing IT-7 for about four years I guess. I love the class and I've met some great people. My only complaint has been the car count. I love to race but its just not that much fun when theres only a couple cars. Not that its like that at every race but the car count certainly has dwindled since I started. I think a spec tire would definately encourage a lot of people to come out and race. It would even the field out a little too and make for better racing. I think it would be great for the class. I just feel that there are far more positives than negatives when it comes to a spec tire rule. I could care less what tire it is as long as its reasonably priced. As far as the ballot goes, everyone that I talked to voted yes. I sure did, I would again anyday of the week. Even if I didn't race in this class I still would because I think it will greatly benefit a lot of the people who race IT-7. But thats just my opinion.

As far as Toyos, thats all I run most of the time. They are a great tire and will last a very long time. My favorite thing is they only get better with age. I prefer a well worn toyo to a sticker anyday. I think it would be a great choice but then again I'm partial because Ive been running them since I started.

theres my two cents. proofread it if you want too. Im not an english teacher.

------------------
Jeff Ryan
SeDiv IT7 #47
"My tires are gone, the brakes are shot, but the nitrous I still got"

[apexingsupra]

I have seen one or two comments that the ballot mailed to the SEDIV IT-7 drivers as to a spec tire simply had two parts to it? "toyo" or "no toyo"? Is that true? If so I am a little concerned as a RE asked to vote on this issue that the ballot (if the above is true) was so biased or skewed in its presentation to the drivers. A ballot on this issue should list all the popular tires run (with the option of a multiple tire spec) in SEDIV on IT-7 or give an "open" tire rule selection. It was run that way on the SM spec tire issue for SEDIV. Can anyone confirm this?

Barry H.

[This message has been edited by apexingsupra (edited January 15, 2005).]

[leegrx7]

Barry-----In an effort to offer an uncomplicated choice to the SEDiv IT7 drivers, the IT7 Spec tire ballot offered basically two choices--

--A) support the adoption of the TOYO Proxes RA1 as the spec tire for IT7 in SEDiv

OR

B) Reject this suggestion and leave the status-quo in place (change nothing and use what ever tire you wish)

Choosing the TOYO for the ballot choice was not an arbitrary decision----discussions with the drivers over a 2-3 year time period revealed that TOYO was in fact already being used by many drivers and was the preferred choice (for economic and wear reasons) for many other drivers who were actually using other more expesive (reportably faster) tires in their quest to stay competitive. A lot of time and effort went into developing the ballot choices for this effort. The initial "trial balloons" on "which tire would be the best spec tire choice" (2-3 yrs of discussion) pointed strongly towards the TOYO choice. Toyo's are cheaper than most, have a long racing life through many many heat cycles, stay consistant down to the cords (some drivers actually claim the tires get better as they approach the cords!! ) , TOYO's are readidly available in the retail market and Toyo's have "at the track" support in SEDiv.

The recent vote taken among SEDiv IT7 drivers confirmed the thought of the initial "trial Balloons"---Support for the TOYO as a spec tire for SEDiv IT7 is overwhelming. At last count the ballots from the SEDiv IT7 drivers indicated that they support the TOYO Proxes RA1 as a spec tire for IT7 by a 5 to 1 margin in favor

lfg
Chair SEDiv IT-7 ad hoc Committee

[leegrx7]

Barry-----In an effort to offer an uncomplicated choice to the SEDiv IT7 drivers, the IT7 Spec tire ballot offered basically two choices--

--A) support the adoption of the TOYO Proxes RA1 as the spec tire for IT7 in SEDiv

OR

B) Reject this suggestion and leave the status-quo in place (change nothing and use what ever tire you wish)

Choosing the TOYO for the ballot choice was not an arbitrary decision----discussions with the drivers over a 2-3 year time period revealed that TOYO was in fact already being used by many drivers and was the preferred choice (for economic and wear reasons) for many other drivers who were actually using other more expesive (reportably faster) tires in their quest to stay competitive. A lot of time and effort went into developing the ballot choices for this effort. The initial "trial balloons" on "which tire would be the best spec tire choice" (2-3 yrs of discussion) pointed strongly towards the TOYO choice. Toyo's are cheaper than most, have a long racing life through many many heat cycles, stay consistant down to the cords (some drivers actually claim the tires get better as they approach the cords!! ) , TOYO's are readidly available in the retail market and Toyo's have "at the track" support in SEDiv.

The recent vote taken among SEDiv IT7 drivers confirmed the thought of the initial "trial Balloons"---Support for the TOYO as a spec tire for SEDiv IT7 is overwhelming. At last count the ballots from the SEDiv IT7 drivers indicated that they support the TOYO Proxes RA1 as a spec tire for IT7 by a 5 to 1 margin in favor

lfg
Chair SEDiv IT-7 ad hoc Committee

[instigator]

if you wish to choose a spec tire for those who are economicaly in clined, face this most of us who run the hoosier will have to spend aprox $1000 dollars to rework our supension for this change. i do not find the saving in this . i believe our i.t. stands for improved touring not spec .if you want a spec class make s.i.t.7 your new class "sec improved touring rx7" thank you for sending me the ballot i got it today looks like to late for the meeting.

[Mike Guenther]

Sorry for the triple post

[This message has been edited by Mike Guenther (edited January 20, 2005).]

[Mike Guenther]

I have to check my browser settings.

[This message has been edited by Mike Guenther (edited January 20, 2005).]

[Mike Guenther]

$1000 to rework the suspension for a tire change? You gotta be kidding yourself. I've run Kuhmos, Toyos and Hoosiers and maybe changed camber, maybe not, maybe a shock setting, maybe not. I sure didn't spend any money except for the tires. I didn't run IT-7 this past year, just ITS. But I still have an IT-7 car. I didn't get a ballot, so here's my vote... open tire. Run your favorite brand. I've only been in IT for 5 years and I don't think I'm good enough yet for the tire to make much of a difference. Fun is fun, run what you brung. I mean, who cares if one guy can spend another $100 bucks on tires in this class. The guy with more money is going to change tires more often anyway, so are you going to spec the number of laps required on a set next? If you're trying to be so competitive that the tire makes that much difference, maybe you should try a higher class. The faster guys in this class are going to be faster on any tire, so why limit everyone to just one choice? What happened to free enterprise? Ricky T is fast on Hoosiers, Mike C is fast on Kuhmos, Steve S is fast on Toyos, I'm slower on any of the above but I love racing for fun and the beer is cold on Saturday night. I'm happy with choices and trying different tires for the fun of it when I can buy a new set every so often.

[Mike Guenther]

Just a note about IT-7 times versus ITA times. At the last race in Sebring 1-9-05
fastest lap for ITA 2:37.3 finished 3rd O/A
fastest lap for IT-7 2:44.8 finished 7th O/A

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by instigator:
...... most of us who run the hoosier will have to spend aprox $1000 dollars to rework our supension for this change.


Huh? Of course, it's "possible" to spend way too much on anything...just look at F1...but really, a thou??

Please show me the math that gets you up to $1000. Ritzy hotels, lavish meals and strip club tips don't count!


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[steve s]

i donot mind that the tirechoice will be toyo yes i'll lose some contingency ,but in all fairness to everyone there really is no kumho support at the tracks in the S.E. DIV,so on that count i'll support the toyo tires. it's a pretty good tire and in 2003carlos ran toyos at the SIC and had the pole.i ran kumho and was 3rd on the grid everyone else had hoosiers. that weekend we did try a set of hoosiers but was flat spotted the first lap out.not much difference except price.

------------------
steve saney
it-7 /it-a #34

[Mike Guenther]

Sorry Steve, I thought you were using Toyos. My mistake. Mike C used to use Toyos, but for the last year or so he's been using Kuhmos.

[instigator]

welll lets see new struts 200.per side for front total 400 revalving for new tire side wall. new springs because the tire side wall is different changing over all spring rate.aprox 250 front 150 rear and a new sway bar aprox 150 to acomidate all these changes . do not kid your self perp is the key to winning.

[instigator]

opps double post sorry

[This message has been edited by instigator (edited January 22, 2005).]

[moto62]

Originally posted by instigator:
welll lets see new struts 200.per side for front total 400 revalving for new tire side wall. new springs because the tire side wall is different changing over all spring rate.aprox 250 front 150 rear and a new sway bar aprox 150 to acomidate all these changes . do not kid your self perp is the key to winning.

Dude. This is an IT 7 car we're talking here, right? Not a multimillion dollar formula one car. Slap on the Toyos, readjust your tire pressures accordingly and go have some fun. The Toyos are one or two secs slower than the Hoosiers. Spending a cool thou redoing your suspension isn't going to get you back those seconds. There. I just saved you a grand. Next time I'm in your neck of the woods, you're buying the beers. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif
Ray

[instigator]

come on i'll buy, but i like being up front and winning sometimes and you can bet all the other front cars will do the same to still win. and my other car that has the set up for the toyos is just as fast as the hoosier cars of 2004 on toyos with the right driver behind the wheel.right driver not me at this time.

[Andy Bettencourt]

New shocks AND a revalve AND new sway bars for a swap from Hoosiers to Toyo's?

I am calling BS on all of it. Please educate us on the technical issues involved. Unless your current package is designed to run within the most finite parameters...

Come on now. Send us some knowledge here.

Andy

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM 1.6
Spec Miata 1.8
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[lateapex911]

It raised my eyebrows as well....I had thought that there were dampers out there with enough adjustability to find the right setting, as well as swaybars that are adjustable as well.

I can see a spring change, but lots of guys change springs for different tracks, so it's possible those might be in " the quiver", but if not, 4 springs are what, $260?

Of course, I guess I must be leaving time on the track...but thankfully I am blissfully unaware of my tuning inabilities, or I'd be more financially tortured than I am!

Even still, I would gladly buy new springs, adjust my bars and dampers on a few test days in order to eliminate a few sets of tires a year. At $800 a set, it adds up fast.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[instigator]

ok don't belive, but go to tech talk "question for guys runnig hoosier r3s40is"by ben84 rx7 and hear it from another source on the same type of issue. checkit out maybe they will explain it

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by instigator:
ok don't belive, but go to tech talk "question for guys runnig hoosier r3s40is"by ben84 rx7 and hear it from another source on the same type of issue. checkit out maybe they will explain it

Actually, I was hoping YOU would explain it. It's obvious that changes need to be made but to say that it would cost you $1K to go to Toyo's...please.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM 1.6
Spec Miata 1.8
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited January 24, 2005).]

[instigator]

i gave you a site to go to. did you check it out, and if you are aquanted with flat out m.s you would know the work involved in correcting suspensions for tires .others that race i.t seem to know.due some research .

[Andy Bettencourt]

Ahhhh, I get it. You are just quoting Greg's post from that thread...and he says what HE did. No technical explanation, just "what he said".

I get it.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM 1.6
Spec Miata 1.8
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by moto62:
The Toyos are one or two secs slower than the Hoosiers. Spending a cool thou redoing your suspension isn't going to get you back those seconds.

RAY, even if the Toyo's are 1-2 seconds slower, and everyone uses them, there is no need to get all of those 1-2 seconds back. All you need to do, is optimize your suspension rates/alignment for the toyos. If you get .5 second back that your competition doesn't, it is your advantage.

That being said. I believe that the tuning range available with current "Hoosier optimized suspension" will certainly have the optimum Toyo set-up within that range of adjustablitly/revalving. So $1000/parts--don't think so. $1000 in seat time/testing to optimize for Toyo's? Probably, at least that. However, you don't need to find the optimum setup--all you need to be is ahead of your competition in finding it.

Tires are a highly consumable item (no suprise there) you will be ahead of the game before the season is over.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
However, you don't need to find the optimum setup--all you need to be is ahead of your competition in finding it.


This is my favorite thing you have ever written. No truer words have been written.

It's why, in 4 years, we haven't missed a test day prior to a race.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM 1.6
Spec Miata 1.8
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[moto62]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
RAY, even if the Toyo's are 1-2 seconds slower, and everyone uses them, there is no need to get all of those 1-2 seconds back. All you need to do, is optimize your suspension rates/alignment for the toyos. If you get .5 second back that your competition doesn't, it is your advantage.

Totally in agreement here.


Originally posted by Quickshoe:
That being said. I believe that the tuning range available with current "Hoosier optimized suspension" will certainly have the optimum Toyo set-up within that range of adjustablitly/revalving.

Exactly.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Originally posted by Quickshoe: $1000/parts--don't think so. $1000 in seat time/testing to optimize for Toyo's? </font>

Priceless. Now let's see if we can get the "instigator" to understand this. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
Ray


[This message has been edited by moto62 (edited January 24, 2005).]Had to fix quotes(duh!)

[This message has been edited by moto62 (edited January 24, 2005).]

[instigator]

okay for those of you so smart car #59 at the arrc is one of my cars it qualifyed on toyos and raced on them as well. a broken wheel and luck let the driver finish 6th. if you dont think that all the changes make a differance lets see you turn a 1.476 at road atl on toyos. with out the proper changes to your suspension you will not see those times .

[This message has been edited by instigator (edited January 24, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by instigator (edited January 25, 2005).]

[Andy Bettencourt]

OK, now we are getting somewhere. Since you are responsible for the development of the car, tell us what differences the changes made, and why. We find your assertion unreal, so were are trying to learn. Educate us, seriously.

Oh, and signing your name might help.

BTW: My experience is with Miata's (Toyos), ITS RX7's (Goodyears and Hoosiers) and a World Challenge E36 BMW (Toyo's and Goodyears). Currently, our top team car holds 3 track records. We have been known to change springs AFTER winning the POLE.

http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM 1.6
Spec Miata 1.8
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[instigator]

look i have a second car that has been set up for the hoosier tires and those numbers you all joke about are the real cost in converting the car over to the other stander of tire.ther are huge differances in both of the suspension in regard to spring rates and jounce and rebound in the struts along with sway bar differances. and i also for got the change in the rear gear 550 dollars add that in as well. specifics? naa.you will have to learn those on your own must keep one up on the comp.

[Boswoj]

Instigator

OK - I think most here have been willing to not judge you based on your inability to convey your ideas through the written word. I would say that those same folks have encouraged you to participate in spite of what comes across as a rude, abrasive, and inflexible personality, while not imposing similar attitudes on you. You should re-read your own posts some time from the perspective of those who don't know you from adam. If you are going to make statements that draw doubt, and even ridicule, be prepared to back them with at least SOME logical reasoning! You remind me of guys who show up DEMANDING respect for their great knowledge, assuming you can baffle all us idiots who don't know anything about cars. I would be happy to buy into your BS if you were willing to actually offer a detailed description that convinced me that you were right. Instead you keep referring to "your" two cars and how successful they are. You might have noticed that there are several people here that have both recognizable names, AND some measure of success! For the most part, the people that you are disagreeing with are guys that have been willing to help everyone by posting EXTREMELY detailed info for years. I, and I'm guessing most of the posters here, have spent a few hundred hours disassembling and reassembling race cars - don't float your crap here and expect everyone to agree to it as if we didn't know which end of the screwdriver to use. I personally wouldn't trust someone to bleed my brakes or torque my lugs who is incapable of learning complicated tasks like using the shift key, but that's just me.

Rick Bostrom
ICSCC #155
(Note the signature - it matches the one in my profile, so people know who I am - hint!)

[This message has been edited by Boswoj (edited January 25, 2005).]

[instigator]

look i gave you enough information for you to start you own developement, tell me whay you are looking for and i will give you the best answer i can and as for the name calling or ,"BS" as you call it. you are the only one who has made an attempt to belittle any one. if you wish to know who i am look on the scca web due research.i claim to be no one special. just a racer. i also make no claim to be the best drive . i just give the facts based on personal experiance with my cars.

[This message has been edited by instigator (edited January 25, 2005).]

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by instigator:
okay for those of you so smart...

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by instigator:
you are the only one who has made an attempt to belittle any one.

Not so certain about that one.

Since you are willing to give some facts.

Can you please start us off with.

What spring rate are your "Hoosier" bars full soft and full hard?

What spring rate are your "Toyo" bars at when "optimized" for dry condtions at Rd. Atl.?



------------------
Daryl DeArman
ex ITA and EProd 1st gen Rx7 and ITA Mk1 MR2
current owner of a FV, who still visits this site because the Vee forums aren't near as fun.--and no there isn't anything to do on my Vee right now or I'd be doing it ;)

[instigator]

are you asking for the tire sring rate?
i can tell you that the car with hoosier has a 350lb front spring and the car that runs toyos has a 375lb spring in the front

[Quickshoe]

Actually, I was asking what your bar spring rates were at their full soft and full hard settings with the Hoosiers. Also, where you found the optimum bar setting for the Toyos, what was that bar spring rate?

[instigator]

i belive you are attemptig to ask what sway bar thickness i am using .if this is not what you are askng .i need an explination of the term.i have got a better way to settle this come to atl drive both cars see the differance in the set up and swap the tires "as suggested".then get prices and see if the cost i gave is wrong,or if the changes are unnessary based on your feel and times in the cars a lot of devlopment is done by trail and error and you tell me if one car works with the modifications that differ from the other why those changes would not be made to the other.

[This message has been edited by instigator (edited January 25, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by instigator (edited January 25, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by instigator (edited January 25, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by instigator (edited January 25, 2005).]

[Mike Guenther]

I just had to laugh..............

http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[Hammer]

Does anyone know what happened with the Spec Tire porposal at the SEDIV meeting this weekend. I had heard it was on the agenda to be discussed.

[lateapex911]

C'mon, Mike! You know who's who and what's what down there! Share some info with the rest of us! The suspense is....well, ok, it's not killing me...lets just say I'm, 'curious'.....



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[instigator]

all though not ther i heard it passed.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by instigator:
are you asking for the tire sring rate?
i can tell you that the car with hoosier has a 350lb front spring and the car that runs toyos has a 375lb spring in the front

So if I understand you correctly, in order to get to the mythical $1K swap over cost, you needed to get new shocks - or at least revalve correct?

All for a 25lb change in spring rate (375 vs. 350)?

Both brands of competition shocks I have experience with (Bilstein and Koni) are valved off the shelf to handle up to 500lb springs. I guess I would never think a shock change was needed for such a small spring rate change...can we scratch that one off the list?

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM 1.6
Spec Miata 1.8
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[instigator]

no the present shock on the car needing the chang has carera and when speaking with them here in chamble ga. there sugestion is to revalve or replace due to tire and sring chang to accomplise my present jounce and rebound.well i gues i could change to billstien or koni so ethier way the cost is still there.

[planet6racing]

Since this doesn't actually effect me and I feel like causing some trouble today, allow me to translate the following:


Originally posted by instigator:
no the present shock on the car needing the chang has carera and when speaking with them here in chamble ga. there sugestion is to revalve or replace due to tire and sring chang to accomplise my present jounce and rebound.well i gues i could change to billstien or koni so ethier way the cost is still there.

Translation to American (from Instigatese):

No, the present shock on the car needing the change has Carrera and, when speaking with them here in Chamble, GA, their suggestion is to revalve or replace due to tire and spring changes to maintain my present jounce and rebound. Well, I guess I could change to Bilstein or Koni so either way the cost is still there.

/translation

I'll be submitting this to Google so they can work on a translator for the Americans. I don't think they need to worry about going from American to Instigatese, though...

http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[moto62]

Bill- Waaaaay too much time on your hands. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif
Ray

[leegrx7]

Maybe I'm just a bit synical (sp?) but when you go to your local race shock salesman and state that you have changed something on the car (tires in this case) and want to know what to do with the shocks to make the car like it was before ----OF course any salesman worth his or her salt will suggest spending more money on their product. (right now)----"...when speaking with them here in Chamble, GA, their suggestion is to revalve or replace ..." ---Unless you have reams of reams of on track data collected including shock response rates under actual racing conditions ( race temperatures ) that is specific to the geometry (radius, banking and speed) of each specific track ---I would speculate that any suggested changes by the shock salesman would be at best the proverbial "educated" guess-and at worst a " blind shot into the dark "--and nothing more---Individual Driver style can play into car response so much that to spend any money on revalving shocks, changing spring rates, and or sway bar size/settings without 1st assessing a new base line (test day) with the new tires and the specific Driver that has logged many hrs of test time with the current car set up would not be a wise (financial) decision for the car developer but could be a wonderful ($$) decision for the Shock salesperson. Just another 2 cents worth from a club racer

[leegrx7]

Note to Instigator---please return the ballot that you were sent---votes will still be counted for the final talley, but not forever.

[leegrx7]

Maybe I'm just a bit synical (sp?) but when you go to your local race shock salesman and state that you have changed something on the car (tires in this case) and want to know what to do with the shocks to make the car like it was before ----OF course any salesman worth his or her salt will suggest spending more money on their product. (right now)----"...when speaking with them here in Chamble, GA, their suggestion is to revalve or replace ..." ---Unless you have reams of reams of on track data collected including shock response rates under actual racing conditions ( race temperatures ) that is specific to the geometry (radius, banking and speed) of each specific track ---I would speculate that any suggested changes by the shock salesman would be at best the proverbial "educated" guess-and at worst a " blind shot into the dark "--and nothing more---Individual Driver style can play into car response so much that to spend any money on revalving shocks, changing spring rates, and or sway bar size/settings without 1st assessing a new base line (test day) with the new tires and the specific Driver that has logged many hrs of test time with the current car set up would not be a wise (financial) decision for the car developer but could be a wonderful ($$) decision for the Shock salesperson. Just another 2 cents worth from a club racer

[instigator]

Leegrx7
I checked with my wife she said she sent it off monday. Hope it gets their soon.

[instigator]

Lee you make a good point.Carrera no longer sales strut insert for my application.They recommended either sending them out to get revalved or changing to another brand .Changing to another brand means getting a new strut tube assemble and insert the carrera has a shorter insert than the bilstines. they also recomend try to change just the sway bar and sring rates.Will see it is as little as 500 plus rear gear or 1000 to change to another brand of strut.

rear grear ? Since toyos only come in size I will have to compensate. Hoosier have the 50 series and 45 series tiers toyos only have 60 series. Although close to the 50 series hoosier an extra gear will be nessary for certaint tracks. Thanks for sending the ballot.Hope the spelling and punctuation is right for the forum.

[This message has been edited by instigator (edited January 26, 2005).]

[afav74]

I am in the southeast division and will be running the Toyo RA-1 (they have been voted in as the spec tire) and would love some advice. i was running the hoosier; however, i only made one race last season.... from looking at their website, the widest tire they offer is a 205 60 13. if this is what you run, i would love some advice (pressures, camber, caster, etc). thanks. if you dont want to post it here, you could email me [email protected]. thanks.
Originally posted by joeracerx95:
I have no skin in the game on this. I'm just providing some data for you folks to ponder.

In CalClub Pro7 we run a spec Toyo RA1, 205/60/13. I have found that I can run these Toyos scrubbed, half worn or near the cords and my results this year have been the same regardless. I took 10 out of 11 poles and won 10 out of 11 races. Toyos really are consistent from new until cords are showing. They also last a long time (at least compared to Kumho). Want to drop a thousand or two out of your racing budget next year without affecting how much fun and success you can have? Go with a spec Toyo.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by afav74:
I am in the southeast division and will be running the Toyo RA-1 (they have been voted in as the spec tire)

Interesting....

SO.....the votes are in and the Toyo is the tire!

Cool..

I WISH we had IT-7 up here in the NE, and we could vote on such a thing as well!



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]