1st gen class change to ITB ------ NOT! [Archive] - Improved Touring Racing Forums

Jim Susko

11-24-2004, 07:28 PM

Regarding the fast track response to reclassing of the ITA mazda to ITB by Boswoj that the request was dismissed in the "Not recommended for implementation at this time" section with the obligatory "The car falls within the performance parameters of it's current class"

This is just Bull****. I do see that Hondas regularly get reclassed. This is a Honda club, bought part and parcel. I have one of the best legally prepared Mazdas out there (fastest lap at ARRC last year but stuck in third at the start) and over the years I have always been consistently 3-3 1/2 seconds down from the ITA leaders. I used to race with an ITB Volvo sedan (this is a sports car?) at Mid-Ohio and I could only occasionally scrape out a lead. With narrower rims I might just be competitive in ITB, but never a dominant car.

As a 31-year member and past member of the Solo Events Board, Race Chairman, Regional Executive, Regional Solo II Chair, Editor, I have tons of experience in this club and this is the biggest screwing I have ever witnessed. I have submitted extensive data analysis, written tons of letters over the last five or six years, and even written the BOD over this travesty and I still cannot fathom the reasons we are treated so shoddily. And in that time I have not gotten one bit of feedback or satisfactory explanation for what is going on.

After more than half a lifetime as a committed member I am ready to hang it up with SCCA over this.

I would advise everyone to write the Comp Board but quite frankly I think it is futule. Don't bother them with the facts, the answer will always be the same.

Jim Susko

11-24-2004, 07:39 PM

Let me add to my comments. In this club, if you want an assured 1st place car, just buy a Honda. Any Honda. Old or new, sedan, sports car, doesn't matter. Solo II, Club Racing, doesn't matter. This is not coincidence.

gran racing

11-24-2004, 08:48 PM

Are you f'n kidding me? BS! Oh, so the Accord being moved from ITA to B was...what? Do you honestly think that was fair? Oh, but SCCA caters to Hondas, I almost forgot. Give me a break. And what in the world does Honda have to do with the RX7 being moved to ITB? Just how many Hondas were in ITB during the past few years? Gee, it's funny that my Prelude was in ITA at 2,450 with 110 lb hp. Glad to see that originally I benefited from the wonderful Honda break. Oh yeah, but it was moved to ITB in '05 not because it belongs there but because it is a Honda. Thank goodness that Honda still pays the board their monthly dividend checks or I'd be screwed.

If you are going to argue that the RX7 could be in B with the appropriate adjustments, cool. But argue it on the merits of the RX7 not some other garbage. Just because the board says that it is not recommended for implementation at this time does not mean never. Even some of us Honda people have been faced with frustration that in the past the board sees the H on the front of the car, so it must be a fast car. Whatever.
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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[This message has been edited by gran racing (edited November 24, 2004).]

lateapex911

11-24-2004, 08:57 PM

Well, what can be added to that?

Just to fill in some blanks for folks who don't know of Jims background.

As I understand it, Jim is a former suspension engineer (the degree carrying kind) with GM.

He enjoys the odd and unusual, and devoted some serious engineering to the RX-7 as an IT racer. He invented the whole "3rd link" concept, then marketed it as the "Trilink", and has a slew of products that match the Trilink geometry and philosophy.

You won't find a more advanced RX-7 suspension than what's under Jims car. He also has done extensive engineering on the engine, and trades emails and calls about it with his buddy Paul Yaw. I wish I was at liberty to tell you a bit of what he explored. Innovative.

Finally, I have 100% confidence that he has never set a wheel on a track for a race in a car that he knew wasn't 100% legal.

If anyone in the country can build a fast, and legal RX-7, it is Jim.

I wasn't surprised to see the Fastrack item, but I am disappointed.

From a large view, I do think a great opportunity has been missed. IT is lopsided. Not may C cars, and to some extent, B is struggling as well. Attrition is taking it's toll. ITA doesn't need field fillers. A car that can compete for trophies could only help ITB. Why wasn't this item considered?

There really aren't many chances to help fill the ITB fields...too bad the ITAC and the CRB passed on this one.

I do wonder what the objection was from the ITAC members who were against?

Empirical data? Opinion? What? Why?

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

ddewhurst

11-25-2004, 09:45 AM

***In this club, if you want an assured 1st place car, just buy a Honda. Any Honda.***

His home track is supported by Honda.......

IIRC the last comments I heard in a conversation about a strut spacer I purchased that didn't fit (different hole centers & I had the only 1st gen RX-7 with different hole centrs) my 1st gen RX-7 was "we'll work with ya piled on top of you are the only customer of hundreds that has a problem".

Is this what's called talking out of both sides of ones mouth.

Nuff said
Retired engineer with degree http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

ps: If I were the VENDOR/manufacture/seller of race parts & I sold a part that did not have the same dimensional specifications as the CUSTOMERS RX-7 I would refund or provide correct parts to the CUSTOMER.

gran racing

11-25-2004, 01:02 PM

Guys, don't give up on the RX7. Especially for the upcoming year, I think SCCA has to be very careful of the moves being made. And as other RX7 drivers have stated several times in various posts, there are some obstacles to overcome. The cage issue is the interesting one. There are also RX7 people who are apposed to the move.

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

tdw6974

11-25-2004, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by gran racing:
Guys, don't give up on the RX7. Especially for the upcoming year, I think SCCA has to be very careful of the moves being made. And as other RX7 drivers have stated several times in various posts, there are some obstacles to overcome. The cage issue is the interesting one. There are also RX7 people who are apposed to the move.

I wrote a letter to the crb and outlined my reasoning for the move.( No fuel injection, no iginiton tuning, 40 overbore etc) If you are in favor write DIRECTLY. IMHO it does no good to compare so&so car at xyz track. Take as series NARRC,NYSRRC. and see the top cars at end of season. I intend to follow up because the reply (fits where it is) is Turkey Poop( in keeping with the Holiday) Remember in Regions that have RX-7 specfic class they are happy. Of course if your against the move you could send a letter also( just don't put a stamp on it http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif ) I also suggest allow ITB to use 7" wheels so we did not have to go buy new wheels Not sure where to find 6" wheel (Diamond probably)

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Tom Weaver: Logistics & Technical Support Manager IE truck driver for 1980 RX-7 ITA #63
"Hemi Haulin' Rotary"

Boswoj

11-25-2004, 02:58 PM

Let me preface this by saying that to a certain degree I don't really have a dog in this fight. I've moved on to racing my Rx-7 in Production, but I still find a really large amount of good info here on the IT site. Part of the philosophy of the SCCA's class structure is to create a definite path for both driver and car development. Supposedly, an incoming driver can buy a SS car to start their racing experience and advance from SS to IT to Prod to GT. This is accomplished by getting progressively more comfortable with the idea of sqandering their retirement, pissing off the wife, and alienating family and friends by only coming in from the garage for meals, and generally treating a 25 year old car like a devestatingly beautiful and perpetually horny 19 year old mistress. OK the last part was a joke............well, kind of. Anyway, the point I am trying to make (in a VERY roundabout fashion) is that there are certain cars and manufacturers that are vital to the success of the SCCA and several other organizations. I don't think that in general that you can claim Mazda as a manufacturer is really discriminated against becasue the number of Mazdas racing as a percemtage of all the cars raced is really large. I'm definitely agreeing with Mr. Susko that the Rx-7 is seriously outclassed in ITA, and that even exactly as spec'd now it would NOT be an overdog in ITB. That being said, there are a couple of "political" reasons to not reclass the car. Right now, most racing organizations see the promotion of Honda to be an effective way to encourage young people to get involved, as young folks these days are pretty much "Honda Crazy". There is also a desire to not be seen to really favoring any individual Marque, and relocating Mazda to ITB may have a backlash effect of making others, who are just as passionate as Mr. Susko to clain that Mazdas are moved to keep them at the front of the class. Unfortunately, I wqould take the view that ANY move made for "political" reasons (spoken like a dirty word) would be a bad thing. I think that, excepting a really small amount of dissenters, we know that a really top knotch, fully developed 1st gen is really a couple of seconds off the top Hondas in ITA. That is not going to get any better, as I think that we are really out of any miraculous tricks that will open up new avenues of development. Since most new racers are going to start with a car that runs at the front of the pack rather than the back, that means less and less Mazdas. That in turn means fewer and fewer to be developed for Prod etc, etc, etc.

I am really willing to give the SCCA the benifit of the doubt - I think that they are trying to do some things that are long overdue right now, and it's going to take them a while to change the playing field as it's really a big, big job for people that for the most part have homes, families, jobs, and the aforementioned 19 year old mistresses of their own competing for their attention. I'm just hoping they get around to the right decision sooner or later.

Sorry to ramble so muck - Happy Turkey Day to my extended racing family!

Boswoj

Andy Bettencourt

11-25-2004, 08:21 PM

The ITAC was split on the vote for a move for this car. Follow the "Attn 1st gen guys" thread to 'understand' the rationale against such a move.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

dickita15

11-26-2004, 09:18 AM

I think it is pretty obvious that I think the RX7 is a good fit in ITB but that said I like the race group I race in now. There are large fields and good racing and I do own 13 good 7” wheels. I am not surprised that the ITAC did not vote for the change at this time. It is a little like the coyote and the roadrunner. As long as the roadrunner wins the coyote can keep trying, once the coyote wins the game is over. It is much safer to keep the RX7 in A if there is any doubt. There are also a number of cars still in ITA that are slower than the Mazda that should be moved down, though the do not have the numbers needed to repopulate ITB.

On the other hand when the CPA process started the ITAC seemed to make a conscious decision that four classes were enough to make a well balanced IT program not withstanding discussion of a faster class that may be needed in the future. This was followed by quite a few cars moved from the bottom of ITS to ITA. I guess I expected more cars moved into C and B. Now I was not sure if the line between ITA and ITB would be drawn just below or just above the RX7 but I guess I expected more activity.

I understand that caution is needed, after all IT is a very successful category and the club needs to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bath water, but ITC is empty and ITB is lean, so should we not be trying to make a more even distribution if we are going to stick with 4 classes.
Dick Patullo
ITA RX7
NER SCCA

Boswoj

11-26-2004, 08:12 PM

I'm completely in agreeance with Dick on this one. A factor that should play no part in this decision seems to be a much bigger deal than I thought. In my conversation with several IT drivers the ego situation ALWAYS comes up. It's as if taking the move from ITA to ITB somehow makes the car slower and less desireable and calls the manliness (or womanliness) of the driver into question. It's almost as if you could eliminate ITC and add ITSS and everyone would be in favor of moving. Somehow, drivers can get behind the idea of having their fast ITS cars "promoted" to ITSS, then fast ITA cars "promoted" to ITS (etc...) but psychologically can't handle the "demotion" from A to B, and B to C. Somehow it's hitting a nerve that is like the difference between being promoted from Varsity to a Select team, as opposed to being demoted from Varsity to JV. You end up playing with guys of similar skill and ability either way, one is just mentally more satisfying than the other.

Just rambling...certainly no offense meant to absolutely anyone.

Boswoj

JeffYoung

11-26-2004, 08:56 PM

Bos, don't think that this fair to the 7 drivers who opposed this. In the SEDiv, the fastest 7s are far faster than the B cars. They spent a lot of time and money to get that way. They enjoy running with A and S cars. They don't want that changed.

Don't know what is "ego" about that.

And, no offense to anyone, but I still say, before this move is made, someone on the ITAC needs to come see the 7s run at VIR, Roebling or CMP. For whatever reason, they are very competitive with the A cars on those tracks, and it is a pretty big group of cars. That group has found a way to make the 7s run with the front running A cars in this region.

lateapex911

11-26-2004, 11:29 PM

Jeff, if Bob Stretch or Anthony Serra showed up and had enough time to learn the track,who would win? An RX-7 or one of them?

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

JeffYoung

11-27-2004, 12:20 AM

Jake, I don't pretend to know. It's never happened. I know you think you know the answer, and I understand the reasons for it -- and I do see the empirical data supporting it. I see something else based on the run group I am in.

I'm going to bow out of this one. Probably should not have stuck my nose in it anyway.

Jake, I've got VIR video now; I'll try to e-mail you something later this weekend or next week. Would love to have you down here sometime, and I need to run Lime Rock.

Jeff

lateapex911

11-27-2004, 03:20 AM

jeff...I hope you didn't take that as a wise ass comment on my part. I really am searching for the answer....you're right, the empirical data suggests, to my mind, that the 7 is a better fit in B with some changes.

And I appreciate how the guys like to run in their current group, and thats fine. Just as some other guys don't like their current run group.

For me those are personal reasons, but in the end, I think that the car should be placed where it will benefit the category the most, and where it belongs so that it have a competitive chance. No more, no less.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Andy Bettencourt

11-27-2004, 09:20 AM

Jeff,

Make sure you let us know when you are coming to LRP, I HAVE to see that TR8!!!!

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

gran racing

11-27-2004, 10:12 AM

Jeff,
I have some pretty good Lime Rock video I'd be willing to share with you if you want it. I just love LRP.

[email protected]

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

tdw6974

11-27-2004, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by JeffYoung:
Bos, don't think that this fair to the 7 drivers who opposed this. In the SEDiv, the fastest 7s are far faster than the B cars. They spent a lot of time and money to get that way. They enjoy running with A and S cars. They don't want that changed.

Jeff That is understandable! They have the IT7 Class. In the frozen north we are in with the ITA class.What does it involve to have an IT7 race group/catergory? is it done by the regions or does it take national approval? As it stands if you run a RX-7 in ITA- NO Impound and no trophys http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif until the Fuel Injected cars are required to mix one LB of sugar to every gallon of fuel http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif T weaver

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Tom Weaver: Logistics & Technical Support Manager IE truck driver for 1980 RX-7 ITA #63
"Hemi Haulin' Rotary"

lateapex911

11-27-2004, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by tdw6974:
[quote]
As it stands if you run a RX-7 in ITA- NO Impound and no trophys http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif u T weaver

Well, except for acts of God....AKA... torrential rain in Biblical proportions.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Boswoj

11-28-2004, 03:37 AM

Please don't take my "ego" post as an explaination for some drivers in your region not wanting a class move. I was just commenting on something that I hadn't really considered before having a conversation with some local racers. I was introducing it as more background, not to minimize your concerns.

To more directly address your situation, I have really found a couple of things that are pretty consistent. 1) Different tracks definitely favor different cars, and 2) A well planned and executed racing program will always have more success. The same guys who are top competitors in your region driving 1st gen Rx-7's would also likely be the top competitors if they drove Hondas - and they would probably turn faster times. It's amazing how a top notch driver and a meticulously prepared car will find their way to the front of the grid, but it is really a testament to the best "program' more than anything else it seems.

Boswoj

11-28-2004, 06:58 PM

This whole thing isnt just about Improved Touring, im running into the same sh-t in production, rules are made on the buddy system and the rest of us deal with it for years, the little fat book is ripe with back door deals. for instance, PCS says "ALL CARS can use headlight doors to duct air to the engine" they wrote this knowing full well that without cutting a hole in the rad support (which is illegal) this wasnt going to work, so why was it added, well there just happens to a few cars that have these perfectly placed original openings made right into them, what a friggin coincidence, who would have guessed that only a few people would benifit from this rule. I'm sorry, something was stinking in denver that week. Im looking at alternatives as well.

Brad

11-29-2004, 06:35 PM

Which do you think we have a better chance of getting approved:

1. 12a 1st gen moved to ITB

2. 13b gsl-se 1st gen in ITA and 12a in ITB

3. IT7 approved as it's own national class

4. 12a 1st gen in ITA with streetporting to get our HP competetive :-)

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--Brad--

lateapex911

11-29-2004, 09:52 PM

best chances first...

13B 1st gen to ITA. Easy...no-one races them, there are hardly any left, so how much harm can it do?

a distant second, the ITA 1st gen goes to B.

third, IT7 as a national class. No way.

Street porting the 1st gen and staying in A? I'll run around Lime Rock wearing only my checkered flag if THAT ever happens!

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited November 29, 2004).]

dyoungre

11-30-2004, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by gran racing:
...And what in the world does Honda have to do with the RX7 being moved to ITB? Just how many Hondas were in ITB during the past few years? Gee, it's funny that my Prelude was in ITA at 2,450 with 110 lb hp. Glad to see that originally I benefited from the wonderful Honda break. Oh yeah, but it was moved to ITB in '05 not because it belongs there but because it is a Honda.

Dave,
I don't believe in Black Helicopters, even if they have an 'H' on the front. But since you brought up the parameters of your '87 Si as compared to the RX7, let's compare:

Your Prelude Si has 110HP at a weight of 2450lbs, RX7 has 101HP at 2380 lbs - so a lb/HP comparison of 22.3 vs. 23.6 Advantage, Honda. Your Prelude has EFI vs ours a carb, and 114 ft-lbs torque vs 105 ft-lbs; Advantage, Honda. Your Prelude has double A arm front suspension (nice camber curves!) versus our Macpherson strut, and independent Macpherson strut rear versus our solid axle. Advantage, Honda. Stock wheel diameter - 14 in. vs 13 in., and I will assume that means larger brake disc diameters (correct me if I'm wrong). Your Prelude has front wheel drive, the RX7 has rear wheel drive: advantage, Mazda. I'm not sure the front/rear weight distribution, but I will assume: advantage, Mazda.
I don't disagree that your car belongs in ITB. What I don't understand is the rational for your car being moved and the RX7 being considered appropriately classed. Either there is some conspiracy against old cars, Mazdas, Rotaries, or the board has a misunderstanding (or some data they have that they haven't shared?)about 'performance potential' after race preparation has occurred, that differs between our cars. You must admit - that the specifications suggest that the two cars should be virtually identical.

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Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

[This message has been edited by dyoungre (edited November 30, 2004).]

gran racing

11-30-2004, 11:21 AM

Dave,

The H thing is a matter of perspective. When I originally submitted my request to have the Prelude classified, everyone told me to expect it to go to ITA because it is a Honda. Some of these people were Honda drivers, others not. So I sat and waited. Yup, the response was the car is deemed to best fit into ITA not B. The response I received why it was not put into ITB was due to “competition potential”. How many times has that been used as the rationale in the past?? Oh well. On a different note, I don’t know if you have been following the recent Fastrack post and other threads on forums, but it is interesting to hear the BMW guys talk about how the RX7 always gets things done for them. In this case they are talking about the ITS RX7, but it is still an RX7. I’m not saying that I agree with this perspective, but I do find it interesting. (This hurts the conspiracy theory about Mazda and Rotaries)

As far as comparing the RX7 and the Prelude – I honestly have not spent much time on this comparison. Although Dick and Jake probably have given it more thought; we’ve briefly discussed it at the track. Also, I am not familiar enough with the RX7 to do this comparison in much detail. But I’d be willing to share my Prelude info. with you when I have more time / access to my data references. Shoot me an e-mail with some info. about the RX7 and we can do a little comparison just for kicks. ([email protected])

Some brief information: So far from what I’ve determined, the Prelude’s ECU is extremely hard to do anything with legally. It can not be chipped. L Believe me, I’ve looked into this quite a bit and contacted many tuners even some in Canada. (It could be done if allowed to use a piggy back system.) The prelude stock wheel is 13”. Not sure about brake disc diameter comparisons off the top of my head. One thing that really hurts the Prelude is how front heavy it is.

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

Quickshoe

11-30-2004, 01:48 PM

Dave,

I believe your closing words nailed it. the mazda gains somewhere north of 30% hp in IT trim, while most of the boinger crowed will get somewhere around 15%. I believe the rx7 belongs in B...just stating why it maybe more about the potential than the emblem.

JeffYoung

11-30-2004, 02:12 PM

Which (the gains the RX7 sees in IT trim) me to ask -- why are we so afraid of street porting?

It's essentially what piston engines are allowed with gasket/port matching right? And, it is easy to police with the lollipop right? And, it should result in a "known" gain?

Something that bumps the 12a RX7 from 130 hp or so to 150 hp or so seem to me to be a decent solution to this problem. It keeps the car in A and makes it more competitive with the Hondos. It doesn't piss off either faction of the RX7 camp, and it keeps the ITB guys happy (who will NOT be pleased that a car capable of 7 seconds a lap faster than their record at VIR is now classed with them).

The only group that won't be pleased is the CRX/Integra/240sx crowd, and given that the 7 still won't be an overdog in A with 150 hp what is their real beef?

See, I figured it all out sitting here at work at lunch....

mustanghammer

11-30-2004, 02:28 PM

The ITAC was split on the vote for a move for this car. Follow the "Attn 1st gen guys" thread to 'understand' the rationale against such a move.
AB

Andy,

Can you be more specific? I have read the thread you are refering to backwards and forwards. The only objections I see are from a couple of drivers that don't want to move out of their run group and an early comment about roll cage specs.

Can you tell who is against this and their reasons?

This might help us make our arguments or at least let us know if we are pissing into the wind.

------------------
Scott Peterson
KC Region
IT7 #17

lateapex911

11-30-2004, 02:43 PM

Well, first some numbers...IF the RX-7 gains 30%, that would give it 130 or so, right? And the Honda gains 15%? So that would be around 126 or so... (Actually, I think they both do a little better) but they are kinda close to each other. The 7 has the HP, but the Prelude has the torque. The rotaries are very torque challenged, and the build does nothing for that.

Jeff...here's what I know about the porting idea. First, porting a rotary is more like giving a piston engine a bigger (longer duration and greater lift)cam. Second, I watched the process at the ARRCs very carefully, then consulted some experts to confirm my thoughts. According to them, the test reveals very little. It is quite possible, I am told, to build an engine that will have 10-15% more power than the best "legal" build, and sail though the tech process.

The only way to be able to know is a complete teardown.

So, thats what the CRB is afraid of. The old 'give em an inch and they'll take a mile' problem. Of course, we don't really know if there aren't inches being taken as it is! And of course, the same is true for piston engined cars, but more on that later...

I think the CRB is especialy sensitive on this issue because just doing a little undetectable porting can result in significant gains. Piston engines can be checked more esily for such transgressions, and the things that are equally hard to check on a piston engine, such as conn rod weights, etc., won't net the gains that a teensy port job will.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Boswoj

11-30-2004, 02:47 PM

I think I can safely say that the "porting" solution is a Pandora's box that will NEVER be opened in IT. No, it's not ewasy to enforce with the lollypop - the lollypop is intended to enforce stock ports. There are literally an infinite number of ways to port a rotary that would not be definable with a "lollipop". Just look at the huge effort that was just invested (led by Lemon @ Mazdatrix I believe?) to finally come up with a definitive limit to what is considered a "streetport" for EP! The various top rotary engine builders are a bunch of creative, innovative, and free-thinking guys and any number of radical designs could be considered to be a streetport by teh letter of the law - but not to the spirit of the law. Without using an intake restrictor plate, or similar parameter limiting device, 12a's won't jump from 130 to 150 HP. They will jump to 170+, and I like to believe that the fair-minded Mazda racers aren't realy looking to be overdogs - they are just looking for a good race.

Oh - and did I mention that porting would simply be COMPLETELY and TOTALLY not in keeping with the entire philosophy and context of the IT concept? Come on guys, I want to see the Rx-7 competitive again as much as the rest of you but that is definitely not the way to do it. Perhaps we should be discussing things that actually could happen?

Rick

dyoungre

11-30-2004, 03:10 PM

Quickshoe,
I've had a professionally built 12A motor that has been dyno'ed, and I'm aware of the potential (crank HP to crank HP, I think it's even better than 30%) but based on 'subjective' opinion, the Hondas (in my experience, the CRX Si) has a LOT of potential, simply by bolting on a header. Again, is there DATA that points to the rotary's potential versus all/some piston engine's potential? Most multivalve (3 or 4 valve per cylinder) engines are no longer port flow limited like the 2 valve engines, and they also are not rpm limited by valve float, like their predecessors.
It is only my opinion, but I don't think the 12A has as much of an improvement advantage as it may have had when it was first classed. I would kill for some data!

------------------
Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

Andy Bettencourt

12-01-2004, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by mustanghammer:

Andy,

Can you be more specific? I have read the thread you are refering to backwards and forwards. The only objections I see are from a couple of drivers that don't want to move out of their run group and an early comment about roll cage specs.

Can you tell who is against this and their reasons?

This might help us make our arguments or at least let us know if we are pissing into the wind.

I don't think it's appropriate to speak out of school on this one. Any member who wants to tell how they voted, can. Some may not. My vote should be obvious.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

mustanghammer

12-01-2004, 02:17 PM

I don't think it's appropriate to speak out of school on this one. Any member who wants to tell how they voted, can. Some may not. My vote should be obvious.

AB

Andy,

Thanks for the answer and your support.

I have not sent a letter to the Comp Board this year regarding this issue. I did send a letter in 2003 regarding the then proposed PCA's.

I am wondering if the letter writer is given a more detailed answer than what is shown in Fastrack? I hate to sound like a spoiled teenager but the "why" needs to be included in the response.

Finally, would the number of letters on this sugject matter to the ITAC or the Comp Board?

It seems to me that everytime this has been requested it has been shot down with the same response seen in the January Fastrack. Doesn't seem possible that this issue could be ignored considering the number of insterested parties that are on both sides of this issue. While my time on this board is short, I don't see the same response from other marks regarding these issues. I didn't see a 100+ email thread regarding the desire to move gen 1 CRX's to B for example.

Thanks for your time and service

------------------
Scott Peterson
KC Region
IT7 #17

ddewhurst

12-01-2004, 03:28 PM

How come???????

Some of the 1st gen RX-7 owners/drivers are so bound to get reclassed to ITB when they wouldn't have any better normal chance to win in ITB than they do in ITA or IT7 from my humble observations. Do ya think that a person who finishes 5th through 10th within a group of ITA 1st gen RX-7's is going to win in ITB?

Extreem example:

How about the folks that race in Pro Spec Miata as an example. Lets look at a 40 car race group & how many drivers have a normal chance to win in a Pro Spec Miata race ? 6 maybe.......

Continue the Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

Andy Bettencourt

12-01-2004, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by mustanghammer:

Andy,

Thanks for the answer and your support.

I have not sent a letter to the Comp Board this year regarding this issue. I did send a letter in 2003 regarding the then proposed PCA's.

I am wondering if the letter writer is given a more detailed answer than what is shown in Fastrack? I hate to sound like a spoiled teenager but the "why" needs to be included in the response.

Finally, would the number of letters on this sugject matter to the ITAC or the Comp Board?

It seems to me that everytime this has been requested it has been shot down with the same response seen in the January Fastrack. Doesn't seem possible that this issue could be ignored considering the number of insterested parties that are on both sides of this issue. While my time on this board is short, I don't see the same response from other marks regarding these issues. I didn't see a 100+ email thread regarding the desire to move gen 1 CRX's to B for example.

Thanks for your time and service

I am not sure the letter writer is given more than what is printed in FT. I wish they were and have actually called come 'writers' who have provided phone numbers in there requests in order to give them the committees concensus - especially when it is unanimous. The reason the FT stuff can't be expanded on is simple econimics. It would be a novel every month of full explanations.

The quantity of letters is important. SO FEW people actually write in on ANY topic (solicited or not) that when you get a decent amount, it makes an impact. Having said that, I put LITTLE value on a form letter that 20 people copy and send in. WHY? Because when people are forced to sit down and write their own thoughts, they often change their position or become indifferent. Asking sometone to explain why they feel a certain way is powerful...most can't do it. Learning WHY each individual has an opinion is WAY more valuable.

I disagree that the issue has been ignored. IT has been the hottest topic we have dealt with over the past 6 months. Just becasue no move was made doesn't mean we ignored it, right?

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Andy Bettencourt

12-01-2004, 03:50 PM

Andy Bettencourt

12-01-2004, 03:52 PM

Duplicate...

[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited December 01, 2004).]

dyoungre

12-01-2004, 04:09 PM

I was listed as the originator of the proposal in FT, although I know that multiple people wrote in (mine was not provided as a chain letter). I did not recieve any feedback outside of FT, but I also didn't provide my phone number. I suppose I will, next time I write in.

Andy,
It is still not clear to me as to what the arguments are against moving the RX7 to ITB (based on the previous thread) except that, in some regions, due to track layout, competition levels, etc, the RX7 is indeed competitive in that region's ITA field. I agree, constructive feedback would be great - either to enlighten me on the big picture, or to know what needs to be argued rationally with concrete evidence.

The point is that we, as competitors, are all striving to improve, and we all try to measure our performance. Winning a class would be a rewarding validation that a goal was achieved. Getting to the point that you can say "I've really improved - I'm only 3 seconds a lap slower than the people I'm competing with" isn't the same as competing for a class win. I'd like to know that it is conceptually possible to reach the summit.

------------------
Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

ddewhurst

12-01-2004, 04:39 PM

***You are missing the ENTIRE POINT.***

Not...... At this time the car is still in ITA for year 2005. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Must be everyone is not in agreement with YOU. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
ITA or IT7 1st gen RX-7 #14

Edit add on:

***These are intellegent men with differing opinions.***

Some of we racers are intellegent. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited December 01, 2004).]

Andy Bettencourt

12-01-2004, 04:39 PM

Dave,

I don't know what to tell you. I am in favor of the move, some are not. I can't, and won't speak for them. These are intellegent men with differing opinions.

As far as the chain letter comments above, they were generic in nature. They have nothing to do with any RX-7 letters.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

lateapex911

12-01-2004, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
How come???????

Some of the 1st gen RX-7 owners/drivers are so bound to get reclassed to ITB when they wouldn't have any better normal chance to win in ITB than they do in ITA or IT7 from my humble observations. Do ya think that a person who finishes 5th through 10th within a group of ITA 1st gen RX-7's is going to win in ITB?

Continue the Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

"Humble" ??? errrr...nevermind....

David, the point isn't how midpack drivers place or don't place! If we classed cars THAT way, we'd have the same model in different classes!

And, I'm sorry, but it's not about where someone WANTS to race...should an entire nation of cars be in the wrong class because somebody likes the race group he's in? No.

It's about the car. It is about what a legal well prepped and well driven car is capable of. Empirical data. Is the car closer to the front of ITA or ITB????

We don't have any idea WHY the members who voted against it did as they did. Most people I have talked to, (including many ITB drivers), agree that the car is more of an ITB car than an ITA car...so...the question remains...WHY was it voted down?

Tha answer in Fastrack is clearly not effective, nor accurate, as no supporting data was given.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Andy Bettencourt

12-01-2004, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
***You are missing the ENTIRE POINT.***

Not...... At this time the car is still in ITA for year 2005. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Must be everyone is not in agreement with YOU. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
ITA or IT7 1st gen RX-7 #14

Edit add on:

***These are intellegent men with differing opinions.***

Some of we racers are intellegent. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited December 01, 2004).]

[img]http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_3.gif' border=0> (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZS)

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

mustanghammer

12-02-2004, 03:13 PM

Some of the 1st gen RX-7 owners/drivers are so bound to get reclassed to ITB when they wouldn't have any better normal chance to win in ITB than they do in ITA or IT7 from my humble observations. Do ya think that a person who finishes 5th through 10th within a group of ITA 1st gen RX-7's is going to win in ITB?

David,

If "slow RX7's" are not competitive in ITB should we put them ITC? At what point does some of a car's competitiveness becomes the responisbility of the car owner/driver?

Speaking only of my situation in the MiDiv this move would have nothing to do with collecting easy class wins. For example, while I finshed 1st or 2nd in every IT7 race I was in last year - 6 wins and 2 second place finishes in class. Only ONCE in any of those 8 races did I finish ahead of the winning ITB car. In that one instance I think Mr. Albin was just being nice to me (thanks Chris, that was FUN).

So, speaking for myself, It wouldn't seem like I have all that much to gain. Why would I want to be moved to ITB????

#1 My car - which is a good car that is sometimes driven okay - cannot compete with the fast cars in ITA. Not in MiDiv and historically not at the ARRC race. You can look at the ARRC results to see that this is true.

#2 IT7 - Which was invented BECAUSE of #1 - cannot be expected to grow into Spec Miata. So, It's survival is dependent on the popularity of 1st Gen Rx7's. In 04 we had 9 cars registered in the Divisional Points Championship - not bad for us. However not that many of the drivers were active and 3 of my 6 race wins were unapposed. What happens when the subscription in this class goes down and IT7 is eliminated? I am back in ITA

#3 ITB has a greater chance for growth as new cars are classed. Wow, a chance to race against cars in my class. What a concept.

It is not about becoming a dominate car in a class. It is about quality compettion on a consistent basis.

To that end, I would be happy to run in ITA if PCA's were passed that made the POTENTIAL of an RX7 the equal of an Acura, Honda CRX, Nissan 240SX etc.

But this is just my opinion.

------------------
Scott Peterson
KC Region
IT7 #17