ITB at what cost?

[RX767]

Is the First Gen RX7 a good fit with ITB? Most likey it is. However, when I have been included with the ITB and ITC cars I have been midpack at best. This is largely due to a lack of tuning and seat time on my part. At Nelson Ledges this year , I ran in the 1:26-1:28 range, and Scott Nutter, who has much more experience at NL runs 1:22's with his RX7. The top ITB car turns a 1:19 and a significant percentage of the other ITB cars were in the1:20 -1:24 range. Is this data relevant? Who knows? There are alot of unknown variables. Although, I do not think the RX7 would be an overdog in ITB even in its current legal trim.

If the RX7 is moved to ITB, I suspect additional weight will be will be one of the penalties. However, the 6" rim requirment will be the one that stings the most. In my situation, I will not be able to use four Circle rims ($890) and four Diamond rims ($450). I would then have the choice of utilizing the stock 5.5 rims or buying new six inch rims.

In other posts on current threads, the response to a complaint about 6" rims has been met with the solution of selling the 7" rims on Ebay. What kind of market exists for 13" by7" used racing rims? I plead ignorance here. It will not be the "Import" crowd. They want 18" rims.

Maybe I am in the minority here, but I do not see a tremendous performance advantage of 7" rims nor do I have vast financial resouces to throw into racing.

In this situation, if the RX7 is moved to ITB, I want SCCA to be sensitive to the finacial impact it will have on the middle class racer. For most of us, we will end up eating a good percentage of our wheel inventory. A new set of steel 6" rims is about two entry fees. Would it be plausible to allow 7" rims in ITB with an addional weight penality?

I intend to express these thoughts with a letter to the Comp. Board.
In another respect, I would rather see IT7 in the NE.

Bill Emery
Glen Region
IT?#23

[ddewhurst]

Bill, the ITAC has a narrow view when it comes to many of we 1st gen RX-7 owners/drivers. They think in terms of the front runners & zero thoughts about the remainder of the field. Hell, if ya had 9 pound Panasports I would buy them for $25 each just to get them off your hands. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Continue the Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Bill, the ITAC has a narrow view when it comes to many of we 1st gen RX-7 owners/drivers. They think in terms of the front runners & zero thoughts about the remainder of the field.

David,
I can't print what I really want to say, so I'll just say this...

What a crock of $#!^! You have NO idea what you are talking about, and this statement has absolutely no basis in fact. I don't know how you can look at all the bottom feeders we've moved and made competitive and say what you just said. It's rediculous and weak...


To Bill,

The ITAC has devoted MANY hours to this issue, likely more than any other to date. EVERY letter that comes through gets due consideration, and no decision goes without a lot of effort to considerer all aspects, gather all the data we can, and be as informed as possible about what we are advising on. The RX-7 will be no different.

In the end, all we can do is advise, however, the CRB has the final decision making power.

If you'd like your opinion made official, please write to the CRB at: [email protected] and the tech department will see that it gets logged in...



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

[Tak]

An easy solution is to grant 1st gens dual class status.
ITA as is.
ITB w/ 6" rims and whatever weight deemed appropriate.

Kind of like the BMW 2002 and 2002tii.

Does anyone else think that mandating the stock exhaust manifold for ITB is a safer equalizer than weight? I for one am not anxious to put an extra few hundred pounds onto a car that goes through brake rotors every 3 weekends...

Tak
#29 ITA SFR SCCA

[lateapex911]

David- Do you ever talk to the guys on the ITAC??

Where do you get your hard information to back up your statement??

It's too bad you didn't make it to Atlanta...you could have met George Roffe. You would have found him to be a guy with an open ear that would listen to your concerns and question the "whys" behind those concerns.

I am lucky enough to race with Bettencourt. He listens...he searches...he thinks, and he says stuff like..."It's a big decision...a lot of people will be affected..we have to take everything into account"

Frankly, you can say what you want, (and I know you will) but I know from my personal dealings with not just these guys, but others like them and further up the ladder, that it just isn't close to the truth.

Honestly? If what you said was true, the deal would have been done by now....



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ddewhurst]

Jake, I'll start with your sorry assed statements first.

*** but others like them and further up the ladder, that it just isn't close to the truth.***

I have dealt on two issues with those further up the ladder (on the CB/CRB)& the one who comes to mind would hold the Top Dog position at this time with the CRB. His & the CB responses were disrespectful. I will not go into the details for you because you seem to use a selective understanding/thought process.

***Do you ever talk to the guys on the ITAC??***
The only ITAC person I had talked to face to face previously protested me on 4 rules at the last race at the Farm so needless to say he & I don't communicate any longer. His protests were all disallowed. He was puting on a show for his 3 paddock friends.

No I do not talk to ITAC members other than on this board. (I did side e-mail Darin & he never responded) But I will make it a point to talk with some of the 1st gen RX-7 top drivers that I communicate with now & then about the reclass to B issue in the CenDiv & the SouthEast.

Darin, is this your standard phrase when you get pi$$ed? ***What a crock of $#!^!*** Just what will the gain be for the 1st gen RX-7 field fillers when they are reclassed to ITB? As I look at the situation as the ITAC is talking they (the 1st gen RX-7 field fillers & I may be one of them when I finish my conversation from Spec-7 to ITA) will have purchased different 6 inch rims, tires, added weight to an all ready weight sensitive car, per someone elses statement added stress to all ready overstressed brakes because of the weight & they will still be filling the field.

Tak, the dual status deal was mentioned earlier & I think it's a great idea.

Continue the Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Just what will the gain be for the 1st gen RX-7 field fillers when they are reclassed to ITB? As I look at the situation as the ITAC is talking they (the 1st gen RX-7 field fillers & I may be one of them when I finish my conversation from Spec-7 to ITA) will have purchased different 6 inch rims, tires, added weight to an all ready weight sensitive car, per someone elses statement added stress to all ready overstressed brakes because of the weight & they will still be filling the field.

You are making an awefully big assumption, David... the assumption that we on the ITAC are idiots... And, the assumption that the RX-7 move is a done deal. Far from it...

Again, there are other solutions to this "problem", and the only one's you guys are discussing is a move, which wouldn't be the doom and gloom you make it to be, and the other being non-IT style allowances...

There are other solutions, that I'd rather not discuss publicly, lest I be dragged through the mud if they don't come to fruition.

Have whatever attitude you like, but my story remains the same. Good people are considering this from a much larger perspective than you, and are attempting to make some sense of the IT classifications and get some moves done that WORK... Give us some freaking time to get it all worked out... NOTHING we do now will be in place until 2006 anyhow and we don't even know how the moves we've made to this point are going to measure up, so RELAX and talk about it for awhile for crying out loud... We have a little time...


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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited November 16, 2004).]

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Bill, the ITAC has a narrow view when it comes to many of we 1st gen RX-7 owners/drivers. They think in terms of the front runners & zero thoughts about the remainder of the field. Hell, if ya had 9 pound Panasports I would buy them for $25 each just to get them off your hands. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Continue the Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

[img]http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_5_3.gif' border=0> (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZS)



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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[lateapex911]

So, David, you seem upset thatyou got what you consider a "disrespectful response", correct?

What do you consider this:


Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Jake, I'll start with your sorry assed statements first.


?????

I've gone so far as to defend you on this site before, but you seem to think that this statement is appropriate? You made some strongly critical statements of the ITAC, and I asked you what your personal knowledge was of the members. Not sure why I got this in response......




*** but others like them and further up the ladder, that it just isn't close to the truth.***

I have dealt on two issues with those further up the ladder (on the CB/CRB)& the one who comes to mind would hold the Top Dog position at this time with the CRB. His & the CB responses were disrespectful. I will not go into the details for you because you seem to use a selective understanding/thought process.



IF I use a selective thought process, (whatever that is), it's because you make statements like that! You draw conclusions, but provide no background, no supporting facts.

So, it's easy to see that you are referring to Kurt Weiss, current "top dog" on the CRB. Your comments run counter to all my experiences with him. (20 years worth) I would be interested in hearing why you made the statement you did.




Just what will the gain be for the 1st gen RX-7 field fillers when they are reclassed to ITB? As I look at the situation as the ITAC is talking they (the 1st gen RX-7 field fillers & I may be one of them when I finish my conversation from Spec-7 to ITA) will have purchased different 6 inch rims, tires, added weight to an all ready weight sensitive car, per someone elses statement added stress to all ready overstressed brakes because of the weight & they will still be filling the field.


Continue the Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David



This is an interesting statement (italicized) that runs counter in one respect to what has been discussed here....the cars viability in ITB.

So from what you're saying, the car will be midpack in ITB too?? And you feel it's a dumb move to go from being mid pack in ITA to mid pack in ITB??

Huh?

Give me some facts and figures..power to weight ratios and such...to help me understand why that will be the case...



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ddewhurst]

***So from what you're saying, the car will be midpack in ITB too?? And you feel it's a dumb move to go from being mid pack in ITA to mid pack in ITB??***

Jake, the above are your words.

Question number one is : What is INTELLEGENT about a mid pack person in a 1st gen RX-7 ITA car being FORCED to buy new wheels, new tires while adding weight (or other restrictions) & running mid pack in ITB ?

Question number two is: If or when some sort of restriction is added to all 1st gen RX-7's so that the top guns are not overdogs in ITB do you think the same restriction added to the mid pack 1st gen ITA RX-7's is going to allow the mid pack ITB 1st gen RX-7's to run at the front of the ITB race group?

If you can seriously answer the above two questions I will quit posting on the subject of the car being moved to ITB.

Darin, I trespect the words of your last post.

Andy, sometimes we all need to zip it.

Upon meeting you guys face to face I most likely would enjoy you all. We would continue to agree to disagree I am sure.

Zip http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

[gran racing]

Bill,

Over the past two years I’ve been racing my prelude in ITA. It has always been a bit frustrating racing against Integras and other cars that start out with much, much more potential then my car. Yeah I know, I choose the car and it is just for fun. From a person that races on a tight budget, I hear what you are saying about having to purchase new wheels. Last fall I submitted a request to have the prelude moved to ITB which was approved for ’05. I know people may question why would a Honda guy care where the RX7 is classed? Assuming the car could be classed in a way that it would not be an overdog in ITB and my car (and of course other cars) would be similar in potential, then that’s fine with me. I really enjoy racing with a large field made up of a diverse group of cars. Although I do tease Jake and Dick that this can’t happen till 2006 so I can at least have one year racing in ITB without them. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/tongue.gif

I won’t go into the concerns about brakes, how much weight would have to be added ensure that it won’t become an overdog, ectera, because I really don’t know. In your post you voiced your concern with purchasing new rims. Again I hear ya but just go with me a bit here…lets say that a mid-pack ITA RX7 driver at track X typically runs 8 seconds a lap slower then the front runners. If I told that driver that for $500 I could take your car and tune it so that you’d be within 3 seconds of the leaders and move up in the pack in the process. Would you be intreagued? Maybe the real question should be why wouldn’t you be?

Selling your current stock of rims on eBay…”What kind of market exists for 13”x7” used racing rims?” Yes, I have brought up the notion of selling the rims in other posts. What type of market would there be? Who knows without actually trying it. All I have to say is that selling things on eBay can be very, very surprising. Take for example selling used race tires. Is there a market for that? Well I sold four 13” used Kumo race tires for $127 and the buyer paid S&H. Surprisingly there were several people bidding on it. What I’m saying is that I would not be at all surprised if there is a market for them.

After my car was moved to ITB, I again went to eBay and bought 5 BBS 13” x 6” rims for less then $300 (~12 lbs each). For my rain tires, why not just the 5.5” stock rims? Yes, that is what I have my rain tires mounted on. Heck, you can go to Pep Boys and buy five rims for $40 - $50 each and come in at less then $300 total. Let’s go to an extreme and say that you get absolutely no takers on your rims (which I can’t believe!). I still can’t believe it isn’t worth it. If I were an RX7 driver, I would much rather use junk yard rims in ITB then really light weight rims in ITA. One reaction may be that you really want lighter weight rims. What is the reasoning behind this? To be faster and closer to the front, right? You’ll be closer to the front with cheapy 6” rims then you would be with the lightest 7” rims. And best yet, as you become a faster driver and continue developing your car there it is up to you wheither you are a front runner or not. In a competitive / fast ITA field, that will not happen.

…”I want SCCA to be sensitive to the financial impact it will have on the middle class racer.” All the more reason to try to get the RX7 moved to ITB fairly. Keep in mind this is coming from a person who would most likely be push back in the ITB field if the RX7 is reclassed. But I still think it is the right move. (I’m sooo going to regret this someday!) http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/rolleyes.gif

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[mustanghammer]

Question number two is: If or when some sort of restriction is added to all 1st gen RX-7's so that the top guns are not overdogs in ITB do you think the same restriction added to the mid pack 1st gen ITA RX-7's is going to allow the mid pack ITB 1st gen RX-7's to run at the front of the ITB race group?

David,

I know that you asked this question of someone else but if I may:

Race cars are classed based on the potential of a car that is built to the legal extent of the rules. This would have to be universal for all classes an in all sanctioning bodies.

The 1st Gen 12A RX7 was placed in ITA (it started out in ITS first) based on the capabilities of a car that meets this level of build:

*At minimum Weight
*Fresh,legal engine
*Legal but tuned carb
*All legal exhaust mods - meeting sound
*Lite weight wheels at the max width and diameter
*Racing Brake pads
*Aftermarket final drive ratios
*All legal suspension mods including the best shocks and struts, spherical bushings, a tri link, panhard bar, drop spacers, stiffer springs, sway bars etc.

Further the assumption would have to be that all of this good stuff would be put in a straight RX7 tub that has a legal cage that is safe and stiffens the car. Finally the assumption have to be that this car is properly alighned, setup and driven by a skilled driver.

There is no way to properly class a car this half built or in transistion between states of tune. The question that has to be considered by the ITAC is whether or not an RX7 built to the limit of the rules can compete in ITA.

My belief is no they cannot. If they could, IT7 would not be a reality or an option.

I respect and understand your concern about buying wheels. The fact is that the only market for 13x7 wheels that fit an RX7 is other RX7 owners. In Solo II SM2, CSP class cars are allowed wheels of any diameter and width. So 13x7's are kind of small for them.

While I support the move to ITB, I wouls suggest that we request that RX7's be classed in ITA and ITB with differnt specs related to weight and wheels. This should keep IT7 alive too.




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Scott Peterson
KC Region
IT7 #17

[miketrier]

After running a 1st gen for 5 years and seeing what better drivers than me can do with well-prepared cars, I am convinced that the only competition adjustment needed for ITB is 6 inch rims just like everyone else in ITB runs. The best and fastest IT7's are about as fast as the best and fastest ITB cars right now. Anything other than 6 inch rims is overkill. BTW, the cost of a set of light rims isn't that much more than a set of new tires. The rims should last a lot longer though.