Trends

So you noticed that in some regions rx's fair pretty good? you guys heard my rant before come off a corner side by side and get beat by 20 carlenghts down the straight, heres how its done.

1 nobody protests

2 nobody checks our removeable primary choke venturis that can be enlarged by 1/4"

3 nobody checks for beveled rotors, 7 hp

4 nobody checks for port matched intakes, dont recommend this one,impossible to jet

5 nobody checks for mildly street ported engines period

6 nobody checks for lightweight flywheels, what a difference this one makes off the corners

7 nobody checks for 626 gears in the tranny, perfect spread

8 nobody protests



[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited February 26, 2004).]

[ITSRX7]

Remove all the "Nobody's" from your post and insert the following:

"I don't".

It is YOUR responsibility to police your patch within the SCCA. I can't understand how you can complain without:

1. Discussing the issues with the drivers in question
2. Letting them know that, although you like them it isn't acceptable what they are doing
3. Using the process that is at your disposal to protest them and remove the cheating

I love it when there is a protest-happy driver in my class. Keeps people honest.

BTW: I am a firm believer that the people who cheat are mid-packers who think that the front runners MUST be cheating because it certainly ins't THEIR driving that is lacking.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967

[Mike Cox]

I agree completely Andy.

We had a guy in our region that we all knew was cheating, he would sand bag as to not make it obivous. When he sold his car and his motor needed a rebuild, all the things he was doing were found.

It is the responsibility of the competitor to police the class they race in. The Tech people won't do it and the guys in other classes won't so, if you have a guy you suspect is "bending the rules" go to him first and discuss it with him in a fashion that is not hostile. If apealling to his sense of fair play doesn't work, then get out your checkbook and deal with him as the GCR allows us to.

But, don't expect the other drivers in your class to do that, do it yourself. You will find that 9 times out of 10, the other drivers will respect you for doing it and if you do it right, it will send a message to others in your class that it's time to clean up their act too.

Wish there was a better solution to it than that but there isn't.

Mike Cox
#37 IT-7
CFR



[This message has been edited by Mike Cox (edited February 26, 2004).]

[benspeed]

Cheating needs to be addressed by the drivers and if you think somebody is cheating, approach them in a non-hostile way and tell them that they need to win fairly. Who can be proud of a win accomplished by cheating? All it takes is a few protests and perhaps a brief discussion with the guys at tech and folks will clean up their act.

Cheers,

------------------
BenSpeed
#33 ITS RX7
BigSpeed Racing
[email protected]
NNJR

Dont shoot the messenger, Jake wanted to know how some regions have 7's running in front and I put it right there in front of you to see. Im going EP, you guys do the protesting.

[quote]Originally posted by Mike Cox:
[b]I agree completely Andy.

We had a guy in our region that we all knew was cheating, he would sand bag as to not make it obivous. When he sold his car and his motor needed a rebuild, all the things he was doing were found.

............................................
"WE ALL KNEW" but "nobody protested", am I wrong andy?

Mike, its like that all over and "we" all share the blame. I posted that so you guys would know what to look or listen for.






[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited February 26, 2004).]

[ITSRX7]

You're not wrong 7's, but Mike didn't say that cheater was winning. I could care less about the cheaters BEHIND me - it isn't doing them any good. The cars that finish in front of ME - are legal.

Your post didn't come off as 'educational', they came off as a complaint - hense the responses. Do us all a favor - type what you mean so we can save the bandwidth!

http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967

Yea it was just strickly "educational", and I like you could not care less about whats behind me but I will admit getting spanked on the straits did push me into building my EP car, I would rather move than make enemys.

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by 7'sRracing:
Yea it was just strickly "educational", and I like you could not care less about whats behind me but I will admit getting spanked on the straits did push me into building my EP car, I would rather move than make enemys.

Then you have more money than good friends. It is a sad state of affairs when a proper protest filed against an illegal car creates enemies. It IS an awkward situation, but done properly, it works out for everyone.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967

[lateapex911]

You know, I guess I'm alone on this....I DO care about a cheater behind me.

First, he is probably ahead of someone. Just because it isn't me is irrelevant. It just isn't right.

Second, just because his cheaing hasn't resulted in success doesn't make it OK. He is still cheapening the sport for all of us.

I wish there was more peer pressure, and if necessary, paper applied to known cheaters.

It is hard to do, as while I might have a clue as to what to look for on my car, I really don't have a clue on many other models. And you hate to be wrong on such a thing.


(Interesting list...I actually didn't know about some of that stuff. I just hope you're not speaking from experience......right??)

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ITSRX7]

I am with you Jake. My comments we basically ment to let people know that I think it's THEIR responsibility to protest when they feel it's neccessary. Would be kind of weird to see the top guy protesting someone in 10th - but not so much if it were the guy in 11th writing the papers.

Bottom line, don't complain about cheaters in your class if you won't protest them.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967

went crying to my engine builder and its the same list he gave me.
doing the bodywork on the EP today and I am getting excited I must admit.

oh but heres one for thought, if 2 and 3 were legal, RWH would be around 135 making the RX almost competitive, drop the weight 50# also and it would be RIGHT THERE with the hondas/acuras and SX. C.A's DONE without porting, costs for these mods, rotors $70.00, rebalancing $130.00, venturis $00.00. do it yourself, its below the throttle plates, you cant mess it up.
thats the frustrating part of this to me, SO easy to fix but they wont, &%&*#@*%^$(expletive) intent. and Andy, Im no egomaniac, sure I would like to win but its not essential that I do, I would just like to know they beat me by a half lap because they drove it like they stole it, rather than by adding 2,3,4 and 5 which is what it would take for 20 carlenghts on a straight. last year at one race I had a door to door battle with a guy in another legal 7 for 12 laps, most fun I've had in a race car in 25 years and it was for 8th place. The best thing about EP is other than NO BRIDGEPORTS, there arnt many engine rules, that I can deal with.

PS Jake, last year we talked about developing a fuel regulator to lean out top end, found another way to accomplish it so it wasnt necessary, small jets in the secondary, Huge jets in the primary. Car bucks, jerks, runs like crap under 3000 rpm but sings like a canary at 4000 and holds mixture perfect to 8800, thats where my 125 RWH came from, went from 108 to 117, bumped the timing, put on dual exhaust and got 125. I considered going to the dark side, port matched an intake, saw 133 RWH but was extremly unstable mixture-wize. Have fun















[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited February 28, 2004).]

[Tak]

As I race out in SFR where 7's do fine (1,2,3 this season in ITA--mostly due to lack of developed hondas), I have to disagree. I finished distant third, and having raced with 1 and 2, I can honestly say they are killing me in the corners and in traffic (or I'm killing myself!)
As a second point of comparison, consider that they are 2 sec off the best integra times...
I can't speak for the rest of the nation. One other point to consider in the HP vs Handling department, consider the Rx-3--they regularly put out 145 RWHP. Tops in class, but without the handling, they are now beaten by Rx-7's with 120-125 RWHP.

Tak
#29 ITA SFR SCCA

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Tak:
As I race out in SFR where 7's do fine (1,2,3 this season in ITA--mostly due to lack of developed hondas), I have to disagree. I finished distant third, and having raced with 1 and 2, I can honestly say they are killing me in the corners and in traffic (or I'm killing myself!)
As a second point of comparison, consider that they are 2 sec off the best integra times...
I can't speak for the rest of the nation. One other point to consider in the HP vs Handling department, consider the Rx-3--they regularly put out 145 RWHP. Tops in class, but without the handling, they are now beaten by Rx-7's with 120-125 RWHP.

Tak
#29 ITA SFR SCCA

So, if there were solid Hondas racing regularly, how do you think you'd fare?

Keep in mind too, that the RX-3s are known to have the same brakes that the average John Deere 42" tractor comes with, and the aerodynamics ...weren't very!



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
I am with you Jake. My comments we basically ment to let people know that I think it's THEIR responsibility to protest when they feel it's neccessary. Would be kind of weird to see the top guy protesting someone in 10th - but not so much if it were the guy in 11th writing the papers.

Bottom line, don't complain about cheaters in your class if you won't protest them.

AB



Yea, it would be weird, but with the guy in 11th (or 3rd protesting a 2nd place car, etc...a 'forward' protest), you know it's about an agenda to move up.

With a "backwards" protest it's more likely about principle. (or a personal agenda with just that driver, as opposed to a more purist objection)

Rarely seen, as I guess we all respect the moving up agenda more than we respect the principle aspect. Or we all fear that our "principal protest" will be thought to be a personal attack.

And I'm sure guys in the vast middle, (like me) probably don't want to protest as it would just bring about the old "If he could drive his way out of a paperbag he wouldn't need to protest" rebuttal!

The weird psychology of protesting....



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by 7'sRracing:
.... found another way to accomplish it so it wasnt necessary, small jets in the secondary, Huge jets in the primary. Car bucks, jerks, runs like crap under 3000 rpm but sings like a canary at 4000 and holds mixture perfect to 8800, thats where my 125 RWH came from, went from 108 to 117, bumped the timing, put on dual exhaust and got 125. I considered going to the dark side, port matched an intake, saw 133 RWH but was extremly unstable mixture-wize. Have fun


[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited February 28, 2004).]

Man you are busy man! And you're building what is it, THREE cars?? You must be "between jobs" as they say!

Thanks for the tips.



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Jake]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
I am a firm believer that the people who cheat are mid-packers who think that the front runners MUST be cheating because it certainly ins't THEIR driving that is lacking.


While this is true - when this goes on for long enough, they are correct.

[pavis]

I went out west and raced in the NOrPac region twice last year with a moderately developed Honda, I'd have to agree with Tak. As a "point of reference" I had never been to those courses (laguna and sears) and it was my first season in the Honda (raced several years in ITB with a successful VW).
Mazdas 1 and 2 were VERY (VERY) fast. Made me wonder a little bit..... Nevertheless, I had fun and was competitive with the rest of the pack.

[Tak]

Jake-
Every time we've had well developed hondas out here, I've finished behind them.
Nick Theroux came out after a 1.5 year hiatus in July and spanked us all in his acura...and he was RUSTY...Bob and Steve (the faster 7's drivers) keep it close, but still behind. The ITA Rx-7's are a click faster than the spec miatas that run in A. Perhaps that's the better comparison.

Tak

Tachi, Peter, how are you guys, IT forum regulars, these are two of the nicest guys you could ever race against. You know Tachi I have tried very hard not to say any names in my discussions on car legality for the fact I dont know what exactly anyone is doing that is illegal. But I have to disagree with you on this one, in practice I was able to stay right on you down the long strait and you left me in the corners, not so with 1 and 2, turn 11 at laguna is way slow and both those cars went out of site before I would even cross the line. I dont know or have ever met Steve but I know and really like Bob and would never confront him unless I knew for sure and had the proof in hand. If you were to say that they left you exiting a corner I could agree but your corner entry speed is great. im going to do one last romp in the ITA car at LS in june and bring out the EP in the summer. Peter, I demand a rematch, Peter got me by a carlenth after a long battle.

[7racing]

Originally posted by Tak:
The ITA Rx-7's are a click faster than the spec miatas that run in A. Perhaps that's the better comparison.


I was about .5 seconds faster in my Spec Miata than in my ITA RX7. However, I was a few tenths faster in a better prepared ITA RX7, than in my Spec Miata.

For whatever that's worth.

[Jim Susko]

Interesting how this has more discussion than any other topic on this forum.

As a person with over 30 years in SCCA compeition I have lots of experience in dealing with rules and cheaters. I have gone through every conceivable outlook on this issue and have emerged with a fairly realistic and pragmatic view. I also spent a number of years on the Solo Events Board (the solo equivalent of the Competition Board) and have served on the national protest committee for Solo II, so I understand the issues intimately.

I have to agree with those who say there is a polite and considerate way to deal with people who you think may be cheating. If you don't talk with them directly but humbly and let them know you intend to protest them then you only cheat yourself and the sport. Often times they will find a way to gracefully exit their situation, as a certain car did in CENDIV who was consistently 2-3 seconds faster than all of us who keep to the rules (the car is for sale cheap with not a single taker.) But if they don't, you must be prepared to go the distance and file the protest. If you don't, you only cheapen yourself and the sport.

I think I can speak with authority in saying that a well prepared legal Honda will be 3 seconds faster than a legal Mazda. Just look at the AARC results where the big dogs go and expect to be torn down.

So take heart and don't put up with cheaters.

Jim Susko
G-Force Engineering