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frazer
06-13-2003, 12:11 PM
I'd like to get opinions on radiators. Of course, I want good cooling, but I would also like to save money. I know some people run the mazda comp stuff, but what about the howe radiators. Not too worried about having to run the radiator hose from the other side. Oh, and if anyone could tell me what size to look for I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

Mike

[This message has been edited by frazer (edited June 13, 2003).]

Chris Wire
06-13-2003, 01:17 PM
www.howeracing.com (http://www.howeracing.com)

Look for part number 342AF for a standard 26x19 or number 342AFNF if you want a radiator with no radiator filler, in case you want to run a surge tank setup.

Then call 800-882-7231 and ask for Mike Norsen. Tell him Chris told you to get the dealer discount price. Should cost less than $180 + shipping.

I just ordered one for a friend, and will be ordering my own when I am closer to installing the motor. Easiest way I can see to install it is to take some 1.5" steel strap and use the factory mounting holes. Drop the strap down and put 2 90* bends at the bottom to cradle the radiator so it looks like this ( ______________] ), then use some aluminum sheet to secure the top of the radiator to the core support. Should turn out fine.

Good luck.

------------------
Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

C. Ludwig
06-13-2003, 01:31 PM
I had mine custom made using a Howe core. Cost a little less than $300. Mounts to factory holes and the necks are the same as stock. I actually had planned to set it up for factory hoses but I measured wrong and was forced to use flex hose. The guys that did the work were in Michigan but I've lost their email addy. My point is that you can save a bunch of money over the Comp unit. Just look around for anyone doing custom work.



------------------
Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv

frazer
06-13-2003, 03:00 PM
thanks for the advice. as a temporary fix, should i install an electric fan? the car hasn't run hot before. thanks again...

mike

Chris Wire
06-13-2003, 03:52 PM
The 26" radiator puts the tanks out beyond the factory mounting holes, I already looked into that. I just didn't believe that the 22" version was sufficient for racing in the Southeast. The hose locations have not proven to be a problem, it just takes a bit more searching. Gates Vulc-o-flex hose comes in a large range of dimensions to aid the process.

The only other issue that MAY cause a problem is on the 89-91 cars where the radiator cap is not the highest point of the cooling system like it is in the 86-88 cars. I know of some guys that use the 86 front cover for just that reason.

------------------
Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

frazer
06-13-2003, 04:18 PM
Thanks a ton Chris! I just got off the phone w/ Mike and ordered the radiator (342AF). Wasn't sure about the cap, so he's gonna check. I think he may follow up w/ you on that one. Otherwise, it's all good. As the racing thing keeps growing, I'll be coming to you for more stuff.

Thanks again,
Mike

C. Ludwig
06-13-2003, 05:46 PM
The early water pump isn't supposed to be as good as the later one though Chris. You can see the difference in the volume. The later pumps have a higher RPM limit before the cavitate. Another good reason for a custom rad. Use the late model pump and put the cap where ya need it. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

------------------
Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv

ddewhurst
06-13-2003, 06:06 PM
One of the guys that runs a 1st gen at Blackhawk Farms & other places in the CenDiv has a alum radiator that fits into the OEM location/mounting that has oil cooling within the water radiator. One radiator, not a stack. Ya hook up the water hoses & the oil hoses to the one radiator. 4 conections. I last saw him in May & am looking forward to see how it is working as the weather warms.

Anyone view these in the past?

Hvae Fiun http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

bldn10
06-16-2003, 04:36 PM
I let myself be sold the $500+ Mazda Comp cooler after confirming that it was a "bolt-in" proposition. Well, yea, it bolts into the stock holes . . . . but: You have to cut away part of the hood framing because the filler is so high. Worst of all, the bottom outlet protrudes into the space where the sway bar should be. I had to shim the sway bar down almost 2 inches! Never was sure about the geometry again. And it did not remove all concerns about overheating. Don't buy it. It is a thing of beauty, though.

Bern
06-16-2003, 06:59 PM
Question on the size:

-----
PaulC on the RX-7 forum wrote:
Cooling. Started with a Griffin 26x19, turned out to be too tall (interfered with the swaybar), but a custom 25x15 would work better. I switched to the Koyo OEM replacement, so far so good. Temps with the griffin and a stock oil cooler at T-hill back in September (~95) were around 190-200 water, 210 oil. Koyo in November (~80) the temps were up around 210 water, 230 oil.

PaulC
-------

Will the 26x19 size be too big? We are starting to seriously look at the radiators out there and want to get something that will not require huge amounts of fabrication.

The MazdaComp unit is great, but the price is serious.

If anyone has pics and would like to share, it would be hugely appreciated!

-Bern

BrianB
06-16-2003, 08:38 PM
If you're looking for a radiator EXACTLY like the mazdacomp unit ,try calling Tony Woodward at AWR 1-760 598 9782(I think this # is still good) . I bought one a couple years ago at a much better price!
BrianB

Bern
06-16-2003, 08:43 PM
Brian:
Thanks for the information. Here is a link to AWR's site:

http://www.awrracing.com/pages/cooling.html

The radiators still look pretty pricey. Right there with MazdaComp.

-Bern

Chris Wire
06-16-2003, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by Bern:
Will the 26x19 size be too big? We are starting to seriously look at the radiators out there and want to get something that will not require huge amounts of fabrication.


The 26x19 fits my application without any problem, however I am using a NASCAR style splined sway bar. No interference at all.

I can't comment on clearance issues with an OEM type bar as mine were long gone when I got around to measuring for radiators.



------------------
Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

Dave Damouth
06-17-2003, 03:14 PM
I have a drawing for an aluminum radiator that will fit in the stock 84-85 location. Probably would work with factory hoses, although I'm using generic flex hose so I'm not positive. Has provisions for a heater core/ water to oil intercooler return line, sensors, drain, ect. Requires you to cut the notch for the factory tabs and drill 4 holes for the stock mount, but the fit is great.

www.alumrad.com (http://www.alumrad.com) is the place that makes the radiators for Howe. Cost around $300 to have this one built. If it was Mike Piecko at Blackhawk, this may be the original design I gave him and he had Howe include the oil cooler also.

The folks at alumrad.com are great to deal with, can make anything you want quickly. Their radiators arrive built to the exact dimensions you ordered. And no, I don't know them personally.

Anyone needs a copy of the drawing and notes, drop me an email.

I run 195 on the hottest days (12a).

Mike Guenther
06-17-2003, 04:58 PM
I run a two pass aluminum radiator in my 12A and it's usually 190 to 195 when racing.
It is a custom made by Mike VanSteenberg at ISC Racing in Winter Haven. I think Mike takes a standard Howe or Griffen aluminum radiator and he cuts the header in half and welds in a bulkhead to make it a two pass instead of the typical one pass. It fits the stock Mazda shroud. I think it was about $300 when I bought it a couple of years ago. I just added an electric fan for the grid and for after the race when the temp goes up.

Karl Bocchieri
06-17-2003, 05:19 PM
I had a custom dual pass rad made by Fluidyne to my specs for $340. Fat 2" core, dual pass, mounting plates for stock holes, correct size inlets and outlets(no adaptors or weird sized hoses) and with a dual pass unit both hoses come out on the same side so there is no long hose to cross infront of the engine. Never have a cooling problem, even on the hottest day.
There racing division makes up custom units all the time, speak to Keith Robertson. He is in charge of there racing program. They might even have my specs in their computer. This is the most important component to the life of a rotary, don't skimp.
WWW.fluidyne.com (http://WWW.fluidyne.com)

spdracer
06-18-2003, 01:20 PM
I'm in the early investigation stages of getting into road racing, and I have thoroughly enjoyed the site & message board here - definitely some of the best info I've found so far about what it's going to take for me to get on the track. (and the videos on the site are great fuel to my ambition)

Anyway... as for this topic, you guys that are looking for radiators should check out:

AFCO Racing (http://www.AFCOracing.com)

I am an employee at AFCO (in the Internet dept) and by the descriptions on this thread we (AFCO) might be a good solution to the radiator needs for the RX-7.

Try these:
80103N (http://www.secureperformanceorder.com/afcostore/getproduct.cfm?CategoryID=6&ClassID=70&SubclassID=315&ProductID=2499)
80103FN (http://www.secureperformanceorder.com/afcostore/getproduct.cfm?CategoryID=6&ClassID=70&SubclassID=315&ProductID=2498)
80119N (http://www.secureperformanceorder.com/afcostore/getproduct.cfm?CategoryID=6&ClassID=70&SubclassID=1580&ProductID=2511)

They are 19x26.

The 80103N & FN are single pass and offer opposite inlet and outlets (sounds like that might be an issue from a previous post) they run $179.

The 80119N is a double pass with a 1/4" pipe fitting for an filer. It sells for $219.

These radiators are not a drop in type thing and would need some brackets etc... to be mounted. However, because we build all our radiators in house we can weld on mounting tabs and / or remove fillers or even build custom applications at pretty reasonable prices as well.

I can post some actual pictures of these radiators if it would help you guys out.

I hesitate posting cause I don't want to be considered "spaming" or "plugging product" (on my very first post no less) I hope you'll forgive me but I think this info might save you guys some bucks.

I'm sure I'll have more post in the future as I get closer to actually getting involved.

Good luck,
Scott Payton



[This message has been edited by spdracer (edited June 18, 2003).]

frazer
06-20-2003, 12:09 AM
WOOHOO! Received my Howe radiator today. Man, that thing is a work of art. It's gorgeous. I'm so excited to get it in. Went down and took pics as soon as I got it out of the box. I'll take plenty more pics once I get it installed.

Note to Chris Wire: I'll be calling you soon as I've got a few questions. Hope you don't mind.

Thanks,

Mike

Chris Wire
06-20-2003, 05:30 PM
Mike,

I'm no longer in the racing business but I'll help you any way I can.

Best way is to email me (see my sig) which I check every evening. If you need daytime access, I'll get you my cell number as I'm on the road now.

------------------
Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

Nick Leverone
06-22-2003, 08:19 PM
I took the Mazda Comp rad and had a welder take off all the unimportant stuff like the filler neck and change the shape of the upper tube so I could raise the rad away from the swaybar. I still had to lower the swaybar about 3/8 of an inch to fell safe, but the whole thing fits great with out having to modify the hood and the temps hve been good. Brian Bagnell who posted earlier about the same rad from a different source for cheaper sounds like the way to go.

------------------
Nick Leverone
04 ITS Mazda Rx-7
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Eagle7
08-02-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by ddewhurst:
One of the guys that runs a 1st gen at Blackhawk Farms & other places in the CenDiv has a alum radiator that fits into the OEM location/mounting that has oil cooling within the water radiator. One radiator, not a stack. Ya hook up the water hoses & the oil hoses to the one radiator. 4 conections. I last saw him in May & am looking forward to see how it is working as the weather warms.

Anyone view these in the past?

Hvae Fiun http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David
Any more info on how this setup works? I'm planning a cooling system upgrade for my 2nd gen, and this arrangement sounds pretty good.
I talked with Brian McCulloch who makes the Howe radiators, and he sent me the design for a guy from Wisconson (perhaps your contact?), and said he's built 15-20 more for others who've seen it - says everybody loves it. A little pricey at $570 with the heat exchanger, but if it's a solid solution to the oil temp it's probably worth it.

I'm wondering if I need to also run the factory oil cooler, or if the heat exchanger can handle the whole job.

Kirk, since oil coolers can be substituted, if I only need the heat exchanger, I can remove the factory oil cooler, right?

Thanks,
------------------
Marty Doane
ITS RX7 #13
CenDiv WMR

[This message has been edited by Eagle7 (edited August 02, 2003).]

C. Ludwig
08-02-2003, 11:48 AM
Marty, do you have Brian's contact info? That's who made my rad and some other stuff. Would like to talk to him about some other projects but have lost all the contact info. Dealing with him was a great experience. Can't go wrong IMO.

Don't underestimate the oil cooling needs. Build in all you can.

BTW, you going to be driving at Grattan later in the month?

------------------
Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv

[This message has been edited by C. Ludwig (edited August 02, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by C. Ludwig (edited August 02, 2003).]

Eagle7
08-02-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by C. Ludwig:
Marty, do you have Brian's contact info?
http://www.alumrad.com
1-866-ALUMRAD (258-6723)

Did you consider putting a heat exchanger in your radiator? Any reason not to go that way? Seems a lot cleaner (and probably more effective) than trying to mount another oil cooler.

BTW, you going to be driving at Grattan later in the month?
[/B]
Yea! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif My first race. Hope to see you there. I'll be the guy in the back trying to keep up with the ITB cars.
I passed my second school at Nelson Ledges two weeks ago. Weather was moderate, and water temp was fine, but oil temp was heading past 240 in a couple sessions, so I had to take it easy. Not something I want to have to worry about again.

One of my thoughts is that if the oil/water heat exchanger is effective enough, that the radiator (which would now be cooling the oil) will be better served with the oil cooler out of the way.

------------------
Marty Doane
ITS RX7 #13
CenDiv WMR

ddewhurst
08-02-2003, 04:14 PM
Marty & Chris, the info Dave Damouth posted below is the radiator I was talking about. It was the radiator of Mike Piecko (actually in Toms car but Mike owns it now) who I hang with at Blackhawk Farms. Confirmed the Mike radiator with Dave at Gingerman & Dave is very good with the radiator info. Guys talk to Dave, I like Daves $300 price better than the recent quote of $570. But then when stuff works it gains value. I'll take the $570 over a giveup in a race or a spent motor any day.

****I have a drawing for an aluminum radiator that will fit in the stock 84-85 location. Probably would work with factory hoses, although I'm using generic flex hose so I'm not positive. Has provisions for a heater core/ water to oil intercooler return line, sensors, drain, ect. Requires you to cut the notch for the factory tabs and drill 4 holes for the stock mount, but the fit is great.
www.alumrad.com (http://www.alumrad.com) is the place that makes the radiators for Howe. Cost around $300 to have this one built. If it was Mike Piecko at Blackhawk, this may be the original design I gave him and he had Howe include the oil cooler also.
I run 195 on the hottest days (12a).****

Have Fun http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
Dvaid

Greg Gauper
08-02-2003, 08:29 PM
Marty,

Cngrats on getting your schools out of the way! Good luck at Gratten.

BTW, I did manage to find that stumbling problem. Turns out I ran the fuel return line too close to the fuel pickup line and I was sucking in aerated fuel.

Hope to see you on our side of the pond someday!

C. Ludwig
08-02-2003, 10:50 PM
I have the setup I have now because I didn't plan ahead. Decent rad and stock oil cooler isn't enough. Adding a 2nd cooler is easy once I found the place to mount it and how to duct the air. If I were doing it again I'd look into what you're thinking. I can't say enough about Brian. I drew what I wanted, emailed it to him and had the rad on my doorstep four days later.



------------------
Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv

Eagle7
08-03-2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Greg Gauper:
BTW, I did manage to find that stumbling problem. Turns out I ran the fuel return line too close to the fuel pickup line and I was sucking in aerated fuel.
Wow, good catch. I put my return line into the surge tank, and was advised to move it because the return fuel would be hot.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Hope to see you on our side of the pond someday!</font>
Yes, I'm looking forward to it. Road America on 8/16 doesn't work because of car prep schedule and my son's wedding. How's Blackhawk in October? Probably 50/50 to be cold and rainy. I'm leaning toward M-O instead, but don't know yet.

BTW, do I get a regional license after two (successful) races (double event), or two weekends?

------------------
Marty Doane
ITS RX7 #13
CenDiv WMR

C. Ludwig
08-03-2003, 11:24 AM
Two races.

------------------
Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv

ddewhurst
08-03-2003, 05:55 PM
Marty, last year the mid Oct race at the Farm was sunny cool & crisp.

Have Fun http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

Eagle7
08-20-2003, 09:42 PM
I got a 2" two-pass cross flow radiator with integrated oil heat exchanger from Bryan at www.alumrad.com (http://www.alumrad.com) for $570. He forgot to add the mounting flanges, but he's reimbursing me for a having them put on locally. The radiator is beautiful.

I converted to steel braided AN-10 oil plumbing, and ran from the front of the engine to the upper radiator fitting, from the lower radiator fitting to the upper factory cooler fitting, and from the lower factory cooler fitting to the rear of the engine - three 90 degree hose ends and three 120 degree. Very clean hose runs. Oil pressure measured at the filter appears to be down only 1 or 2 PSI, so I'm satisfied with the series connection.

Tested yesterday at Gingerman. Temperature in the low to mid eighties. Four 20 minute sessions with 20 minute breaks. Water temp measured at the water pump outlet held steady at about 205. Oil temp measured at the filter held steady at about 200. Electric fan running the whole time. With the prior arrangement I had to back off when my oil temp was still rising past 240 on a cooler day, so I'm pleased.

Grattan next week. Wohoo!

------------------
Marty Doane
ITS RX7 #13
CenDiv WMR

[This message has been edited by Eagle7 (edited August 20, 2003).]

alberto_mg
01-16-2007, 09:38 PM
Anyone else have any other sources of good custom radiator shops? I googled a bunch but figured I&#39;d ask anyway. Thanks.

tdw6974
01-16-2007, 09:59 PM
Anyone else have any other sources of good custom radiator shops? I googled a bunch but figured I&#39;d ask anyway. Thanks.
[/b]
We have a shop that can build you any type you need. We had one bult last year and I will see him in the next few days you can specfy inlet and outlet sizes we added a spal fan with manual control. Will be working on oil cooler setup over the winter. He builds radistors for Super modifieds all over the Northeast. His welding is a work of art. Tom Weaver

ddewhurst
01-17-2007, 09:27 AM
Alberto, the radiator Marty has cools the oil within the water cooling radiator. I know of two guys who have these type radiators in 1st gen RX-7 ITA cars & several that have the same radiator in E Production street ported cars that run in Kanass & all work well. Hot oil KILLS rotor motors.

Have Fun ;)
David

bldn10
01-17-2007, 11:17 AM
This HAS to be one of the longest running threads on this forum 3 1/2 years! :smilie_pokal:

C. Ludwig
01-17-2007, 04:06 PM
This HAS to be one of the longest running threads on this forum 3 1/2 years! :smilie_pokal:
[/b]


That&#39;s what I thought! Back from the deadly.

alberto_mg
01-17-2007, 08:51 PM
I searched and found some good info so I figured why belabor it by starting a new thread.

Bryan at AlumRad sounded cool but pricey (about as much as a Ron Davis) so I&#39;m doing some research b4 spending my hard earned money. Called a few other places today. If anyone has any other source to share, please do.


FYI - This is for an FD used as a street/HPDE car btw. Doing a custom rad/intercooler combo. Oil coolers are independent so I&#39;m not concerned about that. Hopefully, my skills will be up to par in 1-2 years and I&#39;ll be joining you in IT. :)

Thanks for the input

Eagle7
01-17-2007, 09:17 PM
Alberto, the radiator Marty has cools the oil within the water cooling radiator. I know of two guys who have these type radiators in 1st gen RX-7 ITA cars & several that have the same radiator in E Production street ported cars that run in Kanass & all work well. Hot oil KILLS rotor motors.

Have Fun ;)
David

[/b]

And it worked really great until the heat exchanger in the radiator decided to spring a leak - water in the oil, oil in the water, and toast for an engine. I&#39;m not the only one that happened to. Now I keep my oil and water separate.

ddewhurst
01-18-2007, 09:09 AM
Dam Marty. I had not read in any of your previous postst that this had happened. I was thinking about getting one.

Thanks for the info :023:
David

C. Ludwig
01-18-2007, 04:35 PM
I searched and found some good info so I figured why belabor it by starting a new thread.

Bryan at AlumRad sounded cool but pricey (about as much as a Ron Davis) so I&#39;m doing some research b4 spending my hard earned money. Called a few other places today. If anyone has any other source to share, please do.
FYI - This is for an FD used as a street/HPDE car btw. Doing a custom rad/intercooler combo. Oil coolers are independent so I&#39;m not concerned about that. Hopefully, my skills will be up to par in 1-2 years and I&#39;ll be joining you in IT. :)

Thanks for the input
[/b]


For an FD, unless you want to get real trick, it&#39;s hard to beat the Koyo N-Flow. It&#39;s a three pass, twin core rad. It&#39;s the only drop in multi pass radiator for the FD that I know of. IMO you won&#39;t find anything "custom" that will top it in a twin core. You&#39;d need to start stepping up into a 3-row to gain anything.

Another thing to keep in mind with the FD is intercooling. The downfall of those cars is cooling in general. If you are serious look for the best intercooler you can afford, vent the hood, and look to do a good oil cooler upgrade. Even the twin R1 coolers could stand to be better.

I&#39;m about to begin a 20B FD project for myself and I have nightmares about how I&#39;m going to do the cooling system!

alberto_mg
01-20-2007, 03:28 PM
Thanks.

C. Ludwig - I&#39;m doing a custom V-mount intercooler and radiator setup. Reading through lots of old posts on various forums for turbo rotaries and race rotaries makes me believe that the V-mount setup is the most reliable way to cool both air and water. I&#39;ve read posts from old track junkies (Cossie was one) where they were easily able to manage temps using the FD for Group 1 HPDE events even using a regular single pass Koyo and an HKS v mount IC for example.

PM me or shoot me an email if you want to share ideas or research.

Cheers.

HotWheelHolly
03-15-2007, 04:05 AM
Say, how effective are custom radiators? I&#39;ve been thinking of having one made, though I&#39;ve never had one and I&#39;ve only used the usual kind for my cars.

ITS51RX7
03-16-2007, 10:02 AM
As quoted by HOTWHEELHOLLY



I use a dual pass Ron Davis radiator as well. I switched to aluminum a couple of months back because I needed something that can handle a lot of heat.

[/b]



My question to you is why are you asking about the advantages of a racing radiator if you already installed one <_<

You seem to be all over the board talking about radiators, :bash_1_: