Need a new motor... maybe? (long)

[benracin]

This weekend was going to be my second attempt at racing a 1st gen I purchased a year ago. First time out we had a distributor problem and had to go home and miss the race. This weekend we had the car all back in shape and missed the first qualifying session due to a distributor adjustmant bolt deciding to break off after we adjusted the timing. With some useful use of some hose clamps we fixed that problem only to discover what seems like a missing apex seal. The 2nd rotor only "puffs" once instead of 3 times. (Thanks for helping us find that David!)The car went the 6 hours back home without hitting the track once for this double weekend and making a grown man cry for his family. Stupid car! - in homer simpson voice.

So here I am DYING to get rid of this novice permit I now have for my second year. I need to get the car back to the state where it could accelerate and quickly. I thought I would pass our game plan by you experienced rotary super studs and see what you think. Prepare for the questions!

I have 3 junkyard motors on my garage floor. 2 can be hand rotated, the 3rd doesn't move, and then there's the one currently in the car. The engine in the car has had quite a few races on it. Our (crew chief John the mechanic) and I are thinking of taking one engine, slapping it in the car, see if it fires and hitting the track for the quick fix. Then take all the other engines and work on making the "real" racing engine.

So can a junkyard motor go from floor to race ready by simply placing it in the car and putting a little ATF in the plug holes? What precautions should be taken? John is a great wrench, but neither of us have much rotory experience although the car is teaching us more all the time! The engines have been in dry storage since I've known them, who knows where they were before that.

We're guessing that the race engine is injured. Do we try to repair it or just get a new one working. By working I just mean working, not talking about super race engine.

Since it sounds like any internal motor check up requires an almost complete disassembly, should we just scrap the quick plans and proceed directly to making super race engine?

I'm just itching so bad to do a "real" race. School is fun but it's not a race and driving to the track 6 hours twice now just to see my class race without me is getting very... very old.

So please, help a starting racer out rotor heads! I love the car, I just want it to work and get those hondas to stop laughing at me!!!

[C. Ludwig]

I'm on my second year with a junkyard motor and have another sitting in the garage just in case. We're competitive too so I personally see no need to spend the big bucks right now. I did nothing to prep the short block. Like you said there's really nothing you can do without tearing it all the way down. Put the "good" motor in and go have fun.

Chris

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Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv

[lateapex911]

Sad to say, I've never had anything BUT junkyard motors in my car. And rotarys get faster as they get older, they say. So it's a tough call to spend the bucks and build a new one!

Squirt some ATF in your best choice and turn it over a few times, then let it sit overnight. Put some plugs in it...workable but cheap plugs! Fire it up when your neighbors aren't home! The smoke will kill mosquitos for months, and it won't burn of for a while, but it should burn off eventually!

Of course, you'll want to build yourself a motor that you have confidence in, as the older motors sometimes have weak oil seals that make themselves known when you back out of the throttle at 8000 rpm....but the big puffs of blue smoke will make any Hondas behind you dive for dry track! heh heh....

Anyway, you migh be surprised by the speed and power of an old motor.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[rlekun]

Benracin,

Sorry to hear of your rough start, especially with the long tow. It gets better, trust me. I missed two straight weekends a few years ago with tranny troubles. One good trouble free weekend and you'll forget all the crap.

I agree with Chris. I ran a JY motor for my first 9 years of racing (I must admit that I was lucky at the time to find an 85 12A with only 33K on it.

The problem with most JY 12A's is their getting old and tired. Hard to find anything with less than 120K on the clock.
Put the best motor in an go get some track time, learn the car, etc. Sort out the next steps in the off season.

[moto62]

Benracing, I agree with everyone here. Use one of the JY motors and go and get your license. The fact that you can spin them by hand is a good sign that they wern't blowed up. Do you have any history on the JY engines?
Ray

[This message has been edited by moto62 (edited June 08, 2003).]

[benracin]

I'm afraid I don't have any history. I was just out looking at the 2 that can turn. The most hopeful one, I'll call #1 has some good looking apex seals in it. I get 2 puffs out of the front rotor, one weak one out of the 2nd. One seal on the 2nd rotor has maybe a little surface rust on it but all in all it looks good. I put some ATF in there and turned it around for awhile, hopefully that does the trick.

#2 engine has a good looking front rotor, the 2nd is a different story. It's missing two apex seals and it looks like they were pried out or left by some other scary means. The rotor doesn't look good.

So hopefully #1 turns out to be decent. Another thing I noticed is when I had the seal in view through the spark plug hole and I would turn the motor forward and backward slowly keeping the seal in view, I could see the "good" seals moving just a tad with the change of direction. Good or bad?

And since I live in Minnesota where the national bird is the mosquito, this ATF application could become a regular practice!

Thanks for the help!

Ben Harding
#33 ITA RX7

[moto62]

Originally posted by benracin:
Another thing I noticed is when I had the seal in view through the spark plug hole and I would turn the motor forward and backward slowly keeping the seal in view, I could see the "good" seals moving just a tad with the change of direction. Good or bad?

Should be ok. #2 motor definately needs to go back to where it came from. Before you completely install eng #1(no oil, no water) hook up the starter and spin it over just enough to make sure you get consistant puffs from the spark plug holes. You get the picture.
Ray

[moto62]

Originally posted by rlekun:
The problem with most JY 12A's is their getting old and tired. Hard to find anything with less than 120K on the clock.

Not necessarily so. Pay no attention to the clock. A lot of RX-7's have mazda factory rebuilds in them. In the late 80's to the early 90's when most of the 1g cars were rounding about the 120k mark and dying, some in very good condition, a factory rebuilt engine only costed about $1200. Rather than sending a perfectly good car to the boneyard, a lot of folks opted for a new engine instead. These engines are still out there. The trick is to find them. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
Ray

[Eagle7]

I feel for ya Ben. I'm in a similar situation being new to racing and new to rotaries. I missed that Blackhawk school you went to because of a bad apex seal in what was billed as the "primo" race engine when I bought the car. In that experience I learned that you can tell a lot by just turning the crank with a wrench. The race engine gave one puff per revolution on the front rotor and three on the rear. The spare engine on the floor seemed even worse. Engine cleaner soaks didn't help. The one in the parts car seemed the best of the bunch, and that's what's in the race car now - much better (although it hasn't seen the track yet). Hopefully it'll get me through one school at the end of June and another in July, and a couple race weekends after that. I'll probably rebuild one of the bad engines next winter.

Good luck.

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Marty Doane
ITS RX7 #13
CenDiv WMR

[benracin]

So I may not get constant puffs when I'm turning the motor with a wrench? Just asking because right now what I'm hearing could hardly be called a puff. I hope that improves due to the ATF. And how much should I add? I've been using a drinking straw to get it in the engine and using about an inch of fluid in the straw above each apex seal then moving the rotor around.

[lateapex911]

I think the reason ATF is used as opposed to, say engine cleaner (degreaser), is the inherant lubricating qualities of the ATF. Very important! It seems to loosen up the crud and rust that can accumulate, and "free up" stuck, or sticking apex and side seals. I wouldn't despair over a weak "puff" when rotating by hand. Three solid equal ones is great news, but a weak one isn't a certain problem. Once the engine starts, and rotational speeds increase, centifugal (sp?) force will often help the more reluctant seals. The key to these engines is to store them well oiled, and I suppose turning them occasionally isn't a bad idea.

The amount of ATF? ...well, more doesnt hurt, but you will hate yourself when it starts!

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ddewhurst]

Ray, Jake, Guys, here is a question to ya all.

At this time Ben (or any of us could have the same issue) has some motors sitting on the garage floor of which at this time according to what Ben says one MAY be ok to use. Someone said to install the engine first thing to turn it over & do the puff check or compression check with the starter. If a person has an engine, transmission, flywheel, clutch & starter on the floor why the smell can't one put it all together on the floor (something simple to keep it sitting still), hook the battery to the thing & do the puff test without installing the engine? Could save a smell of a bunch of work ifen the thing that's going in is a questionable unknown.

Have Fun http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

[noresull]

David,

That is what I was thinking. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif I have started engines once or twice while sitting on the floor, so there is no reason We can't just turn 'er over while on the floor. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[pgipson]

I went through 3 or 4 JY's in my Spec RX7 over the course of several years. Most of them ran great, until they didn't. The last one lost an apex seal in turn 3 at PIR and I almost got run over it slowed down so much. Would only pull about 5600 on the straight.

I have used Marvel Mystery Oil to loosen up stuck seals. Put some directly into the plug hole and turn it over with no spark for a bit. Put in plugs and connect and fire it up. If the seal is broken the motor is most likely shot as the little broken bits tend to destroy the rotor housing.

I broke down and bought a first rate (I hope) rebuild.

[benracin]

Here's the latest on engine #1. I was out in the garage and just started taking things off it. I wanted to check out the condition of things and mostly because taking things apart is cool. You can get a much better view at the insides with the exhaust manifold off I found. Things are still looking promising. When I took off the intake manifold I got a couple suprises. The gasket that was there has kind of fallin' apart and gotten pretty gross around the intakes. The rubber seals had fallin' apart and it looks like this area of the engine needs some up keep.

When putting an old engine back in to use, are there some important things to look at or will trying to start it pretty much answer all the questions. The reason I ask is I can tell I'm going to need some new gaskets in order to make this work. I would hate to buy a complete gasket set for the whole engine just to find out this thing is junk. Should I just go for the gaskets that I can visually tell need help and leave the insides alone at this point?

Thanks for the advice racing super folk!

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Ray, Jake, Guys, here is a question to ya all.

At this time Ben (or any of us could have the same issue) has some motors sitting on the garage floor of which at this time according to what Ben says one MAY be ok to use. Someone said to install the engine first thing to turn it over & do the puff check or compression check with the starter. If a person has an engine, transmission, flywheel, clutch & starter on the floor why the smell can't one put it all together on the floor (something simple to keep it sitting still), hook the battery to the thing & do the puff test without installing the engine? Could save a smell of a bunch of work ifen the thing that's going in is a questionable unknown.

Have Fun http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

Absolutely...if all the parts are available. probably a good idea to brace it in some way, and to stand clear of the goo flying out of the spark plug holes!

You can also do a reading with a comp guage if you remove the check valve. Watch the needle pulse and you'll get an idea of the condition of the seals. If my logic and memory serve, three equal pulses mean all is ok. One weak pulse indicates a bad side seal, and two bad pulses show a bad apex seal.

The result could show a bad apex seal, but it COULD clear up once it's running. They can be funny that way!



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by benracin:
When I took off the intake manifold I got a couple suprises. The gasket that was there has kind of fallin' apart and gotten pretty gross around the intakes. The rubber seals had fallin' apart and it looks like this area of the engine needs some up keep.

When putting an old engine back in to use, are there some important things to look at or will trying to start it pretty much answer all the questions. ...... Should I just go for the gaskets that I can visually tell need help and leave the insides alone at this point?

Thanks for the advice racing super folk!

I would say that you should approach it as if it will be fine. This way you eliminate all the variables you can. If it doesn't run right, you don't want to wonder if it's a intake gasket or a side seal! The big seal kit for the engine is hundreds of dollars anyway, and requires a complete rebuild to install. So pick up all the external gaskets and o-rings that you can.

I'd also give the motor a quick cleaning, just to make life nicer as you work on it, and to keep the grunge out of the important areas.

(My first racer was actually my driver as well. The street registration was soooooooooo handy. Is there anyway you can take some test drives before you get to the track?? I probably saved two or three aborted races with the stuff I found on the street!)

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited June 10, 2003).]

[Scott Nutter]

As far as intake gaskets and what not, I'm not sure if they are readily available to you or not but my car has been running with homemade gasgets for years. You can get the stuff in 3 or 4 foot lengths for $3-$5. Just trace the intake manifold on it and use an exacto knife.

[moto62]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Ray, Jake, Guys, here is a question to ya all.....
Have Fun http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

Yeah! Like Jake said. If you have the capability to test a motor out of the car, then by all means, do so.
Ben,
Your local mazda dealer can get you individual gaskets (int man,exh man,w/p housing,etc), however, it is fairly easy to make your own as Scott suggested and save a few $$$. Also, a turkey baster or a battery filler bulb works great for squirting ATF into the motor. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
Ray

[Mike Guenther]

Ben,
if you are interested, I have a completely rebuilt legal 12A engine pickeled with Marvel Mystery Oil I'll sell to you.
It was built by Andy Gustus of ASAP racing and I have dyno reports from Irish Mike's dyno in Orlando just after it was built. It is a strong engine and it was getting even stronger. I bought a "super duper" SAS engine last year for $4,000 and it's no better than the ASAP engine. I let myself get talked into spending $4500 installed because I wanted the very best and I thought this would be it.

The ASAP engine has a matched set of rotors,shaft and counter balance, new bearings, new seals has a few races on it and is very strong. It is properly pickeled to prevent any corrosion during storage. It's been in my garage for a year now. I can hook you up with Andy Gustus if you want to ask him any technical questions about the work. Andy won the 2001 CFR IT-7 championship. Price $1800.firm. I'm guessing that shipping from Florida will be around $200 motor freight.

[BrianB]

Ben, Check the NER site classifieds,I believe there is a 12A for sale $300. According to the add it ran when it came out.
Good luck,B

[Boswoj]

Unfortunately my recent experiences have hardened me a bit on this subject. I bought a motor from another racer across the country who said it only had one race on it and some break-in time. He guaranteed that it would run and that it was in good running shape. To make a long story only slightly shorter - it didn't run, and when I had my engine builder take it apart there were virtually no usable parts in the motor! I ended up getting one end cast iron, one "N" rotor, and an oil pan and baffle for my money, because the guy who sold it decided to ignore his guarantee. That "cheap" engine has cost me a ton of money and, even worse - half of my racing season and I still don't have a running motor. Sometimes it ends up cheaper to pony up the cash up front for a local trustworthy builder than to scrimp onsomething that is a complete waste of money.
Just my two cents worth - the biggest shame of the whole situation is that up until now I've never come across another racer who wouldn't give the shirt off of his back to help out - it has really shaken my faith in people.

[C. Ludwig]

Don't feel bad I had the same thing happen with my first motor. It was done up by a big name company and I bought it second had. I talked to the builder about it before I bought it and they assured me it was their engine and they had built it less than a year before. Couldn't be in that bad of shape right?

Got it home and in and ran it for maybe 20 minutes before it seized the front main bearing. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif The motor that's in the car is from an old junkyard dog, looks like crap, but hey...it runs good. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif



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Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv

[benracin]

Hey Mike, would you mind emailing me about that engine? Lets just say that curiosity has got me. [email protected] please.