spec miata

[zooracer]

How about this. Buy 3 to 4 thous. dollar 1990 miata (maybe even get one with hardtop !!). Use it for autocross for 6 mos to a year while replacing worn parts and getting it into excellent running condition. Then slowly getting it road race legal (cage, kill switch, etc.) and maybe finding a spare set of wheels and so on, but keeping costs to a minimum (read: not going to be competitive for first year of road racing). In six mos to a year I would have a great running car that I am very familiar with (autocross) and the cost was spread over a period of time.
Now here is the question. Do you have to have the spec miata suspension installed before you can run it or just the necessary safety equipment ?

[lateapex911]

Hmmmm..that probably depends. Technically it won't be a spec Miata. It would be an ITA car. Actually, an underdeveloped ITA car!

But, depending on where you are, you could probably run it in SM. Just don't run too close to the front, or you'll raise some eyebrows!

jmho...Have fun!

------------------
Jake Gulick
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[fireball]

I am pretty sure you can run it in SM with the factory suspension. It's a huge disadvantage obviously.

But if you're going to use the stock suspension, you might as well do like I'm doing and run in ITA with the stock wheels.

[zooracer]

well ITA is fine too. How much have you done to your miata so far? Are you driving it as you build it? Are you going to run the stock, high mileage (I'm assuming the mileage) motor?
Yeah it wont be competitive for the first year, but I need to develop myself as a driver anyways. So I guess the car and I can grow into fast lap times together.

[balz]

I for one think its great....Mainly for the reason that it shows you have thought out a plan that is feasible. When I started, I had a similar concept, with the exception that I started in Solo I instead of II. I wanted some honest to god track time.

I was surprised with what it got me. The instruction I recieved was top notch, and helped teach me the basics that applied directly to the track.

We had no intentions of being competitive year 1 in IT-7, but were surprised to post a 3rd place finish in our first race with a VERY under-developed car. This will be much tougher to do in SM because of all of the competition BUT, it gets you on the track racing, and for the first year or so it is SO MUCH about butt in the seat time.

I would go for it. If you have no track experience, I would spend this year learning what you can to get ready for the drivers school next year. Next year, if you do the Solo II route this year, the drivers school is a must. It atleast gives you a ticket to go race, even if you don't get the chance to.

Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

Frank

------------------
Balz
#67 IT-7
www.balz.myip.org
"I live my life one Apex (seal) at a time"

[balz]

BTW...sorry I didn't answer your last question...

No you don't have to have any suspension mods completed...However, I highly recommend them. You don't have to spend a TON of money to do them, especially if you have jack stands and acess to an area to work on the car.

At a minimum you should replace your struts and springs with something "better." Spend your time while auto xing to find out what works best for the least amount of money.

I don't run SM so I don't know what Mods are legal so, please don't take this next comment as "litteral" to SM. Here is the comment...As suspensions go...there are MULTI (3,5, etc) way adjustable shocks out there that a lot of people run. But they are no good if you don't know what to adjust. Spring purches on the other hand are cheap, and can help you in balancing the weight of the car out. So buy your springs and purches first. Then upgrade your struts to what everyone seems to be using that is working. You'll have to pick the SM guru's minds for what weight springs work best. Don't go for some big name tuner kid springs...Find out what people are using and buy those instead.

Let me know what area your in and I'll let you know if I know any of the SM folks out there that could potentially help you.

Frank


------------------
Balz
#67 IT-7
www.balz.myip.org
"I live my life one Apex (seal) at a time"

[Rob May]

For any Spec Miata questions, visit www.specmiata.com (http://www.specmiata.com) , there will be a lot more people that are familiar with the class, and the cars.

[JIgou]

For the record, the suspension choices are really easy on a Spec Miata:

Buy the kit.

Kit comes with:
* Eibach springs (700lb front, 325 lb rear)
* Eibach swaybars (rear adjustable on both 1.6 and 1.8; front adjustable on 1.6L cars)
* Height-adjustable perches
* Bilstein shocks (non-adjustable) all around

$1157 or so, shipped from Mazda Motorsports. As long as you don't run into many other issues, you can figure a day to install the entire kit.

I think you'll want the suspension installed before you spend much time behind the wheel getting familiar with it; the handling characteristics are completely different with the kit on it, as you might guess.

That's particularly true if you get a high-mileage car; the (likely) OEM shocks will be shot, and autocrossing on them will not be a fun time.

You can piecemeal the suspension system together if the cash is an issue all at once, but you' won't do it cheaper.

As Rob May said, www.specmiata.com (http://www.specmiata.com) will tell you a ton of what you want to know, including the part numbers of the individual suspension pieces.

Good luck!

Jarrod
1991 Spec Miata #59
Midiv

[fireball]

Zoo:

ITA lets you get into the game much cheaper, and if you mod your car with an eye on running SM, you can spread your spending out over time.

My car used to be my street car, so it already had adjustable shocks, springs and sways. I'd suggest you buy the SM suspension kit, its a pretty good setup and relatively cheap when compared to a maxed out ITA suspension setup. This is my first season, I put a new timing belt and water pump on the 130k mile motor and it should be ready to go. I spent about $275 in parts from Mazdacomp which included timing belt, alternator belt, all new cooling hoses, water pump, pcv valve, 02 sensor and fuel filter. Your car will most likely already come with a set of the OEM alloys, that means you only need to buy one more set, readily available from all the street guys who put 15 or 16" fancy wheels on their cars.

That gets you in the game your first year, then we can find out if we are good enough to spend the money on all the other stuff http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[Greg Amy]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I am pretty sure you can run it in SM with the factory suspension.</font>

Fireball, it really depends on the region. Zoo's profile shows he is from Florida, so he'll be running in the Southeast Division.

Technically, per the rules (http://www.specmiata.com/se_specifications.htm) you CANNOT run the stock suspension in Spec Miata. Also note that you cannot legally run the original 14" wheels and tires. I know this seems odd, but after all this is a "spec" class, and there shouldn't be too much wiggle room.

However, note someting more important: as long as you have all the safety modifications to the car (cage, harnesses, seat/brace, fire extinguisher, etc) you can run as many driver's schools as you want on your Novice Permit. There are no requirements from SCCA to have a class legal car in order to participate in schools. Thus, after making making those safety changes you're good to go to learn.

The next step after that is to decide whether you want to drive in IT or SM. As Fireball pointed out you have a lot more flexibility to be "legal" for ITA with minimal mods, while in SM you'll be required to have most of the mods completed. So, I agree that ITA is a good starting point to be "able" to drive in competition.

However, having built/building both IT and SM cars, I personally feel that the two classes are significantly different enough that to head in one direction keeps you from reasonably doing the other. Examples:

- ITA requires 14" wheels and tires; SM requires 15" wheels and tires
- Suspension in SM is spec, you must run specific parts; I don't feel the SM Bilstein suspension, while legal in ITA, is capable enough to win consistently in ITA
- Suspension bushings are mostly free in ITA; must be stock in SM
- SM requires stock exhaust manifold, ITA allows headers
- SM requires stock long block; ITA allows balancing, blueprinting, overboring, compression increase, port matching, etc.
- SM in Southeast requires a hardtop; ITA does not. However in both cases the convertible top MUST be removed, and the cage requirements and design will be totally different for with and without hardtop. Running ITA without a hardtop means the car is no longer realistically usable on the street (well, you DO live in Florida...)

If price is an issue (and isn't it always?) the cost of a Spec Miata will likely come in to somewhere around half that of a top-flight maxxed-out ITA Miata (and I fully believe a well-prepped Miata can consistently win ITA). The Spec Miata is also SCADS easier to prep, build, and campaign: all the hard decision are already made for you.

So, take all this advice with a grain of salt. Your plan is sound: find a decent car with a hardtop and start by making it mechanically strong. Your first mods should be the required safety items to prepare yourself for your SCCA driver's schools. Once you're ready for the next step you can decide which direction you'd like to go (spec miata) and can plan/modify appropriately.

Besides, these little rockets are TONS of fun!

The best of luck to you!

Greg Amy
Milford CT

[zooracer]

All of the advice was very informative. I do think it is best to get it to perfect mech condition, install safety equip., go to drivers schools, and then decide which class to go with. Cheaper is always better, so spec miata may be where I go. But this is all up in the air right now, my mind could change.
My name is matt, hope to see some of you guys at the moroso regional in a couple of weeks.

[fireball]

Greg, great points. The only reason I'm running in ITA this year is that I don't have enough money to buy the SM suspension kit and 2 or 3 sets of 15" wheels and tires. ITA is cheaper to get into, but much more expensive to be competitive. I won't be competitive in either class for quite awhile, so I'm not really worried http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

With an eye kept on the SM rules, the transition from ITA to SM is pretty painless.

[zooracer]

Went to moroso this weekend for the national. Man, spec miata is a huge class, I think there were more of those than any other class. For the most part the horsepower looked similar among the cars except for one or two who seemed to have quite a bit more HP. I guess they had the sunbelt motors eh ? To bad they cant make them a sealed motor to make it a true spec class. Also I didnt see a single spec miata being worked on during the day. I guess they are pretty low maintenance huh ?

[Knestis]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">... ITA is cheaper to get into, but much more expensive to be competitive. I won't be competitive in either class for quite awhile, so I'm not really worried ...</font>

...and I'm still a skeptic. Cost of entry to ITA is lower than cost of entry to SM. Cost of having a car compared to the the same level om the continuum?

If they really wanted engine equity, there would be a rule in place to allow anyone who runs in a given race to buy the engine out of any other competitor's car, for the same price as a crate motor and shipping. You pull...

I had a phone conversation last night with a friend in Washington State who is building an SM, and the one thing I could agree with was that a lot of variables - in terms of different models - are removed from the equation. At least you don't have to worry about not picking the car of the year in SM. The law of diminishing returns also applies. The first 94% of a "to the max" SM costs relatively little but each subsequent percentage point gets dramatically more expensive. Given this, a good driver spending at a reasonable limit won't get completely squashed by a wanker with a big wallet. That's a good thing.

Kirk

(Who thought Lotus 7s were goofy too, until he drove one on the track.)

[zooracer]

Well I got a guy an hour away who is selling a 90 with hardtop and LSD with 85k miles for 3900 bucks. I looked at the car and except for faded paint it seems like it's in great condition. Should I go for it? I am busy with my swift right now and didnt want to get into anything else right now, but I'm worried I wont be able to find such a good deal in the future, especially one so close to home.

[Knestis]

My buddy told me that he had a line on a shop that offered to convert an eligible car to a full-boat SM for only $17,000. Given that, you could be on the track for a mere $21k, plus transportation costs... http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

K

[David #27]

Zoo: If there is any chance your going to race SpecMiata then you should buy that car.

David #27
Hawaiian Shirt Racing

[Scott Nutter]

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!....Knestis, that made me laugh. AnyWho, even though I am not in the market to buy a Miata to race, a decent Hardtop for $3900 would get me thinking about how to break it to my significant other that we have another car, and that maybe I need to add on to the garage http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[JIgou]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Also I didnt see a single spec miata being worked on during the day. I guess they are pretty low maintenance huh ?</font>

Precisely why two local drivers are switching from HP to SM. One has run the same car for ~30 years. It's for sale in the current issue of SportsCar. (If you really want to know, the final hint: he finished 6th this year at Mid-O.)

The cars are kinda like rabbits (not the VW kind): they just keep crawling out of the woodwork.

SM population in Des Moines, Iowa one year ago: 2. Current population: 8+.

To support my Hawaiian Shirt-wearing colleague David: even if you decide not to race SM, you can drive the car for a while, then sell it and get your cash back out.

Jarrod

[zooracer]

well you guys talked me into it. I am going to look at it on thursday, and probably drive it home.
That was my biggest concern, finding another like it in the future for that price with that mileage, hardtop, LSD.
Even if I cant afford to start preparing it right now, at least I will have it.
So, anything special I should look for that is specific to miata's ? I have noticed some used ones with new cranks, is this a weak point and is there really any way to tell if it is going (doubt it)?
Do they rust in a weird spot ?
There was a small amount of surface rust on the undercarriage (it is from NY), but I am certain it is nothing to worry about.
Thanks for all your advice guys.

[David #27]

Zoo....The early 90 - 91 Miatas had a crank with a short nose. When the crank pulley is assembled on the cranknose, if the woodruff key was installed upside down it wouldn't seat in the cranknose all the way, after a short while is would come loose then brake and cause havoc on the crank and who knows what else. As long as that Woodruff key is installed rightside up and some locktite for added insurance is used there is nothing to worry about. Other than that, if the car drives out ok & is in good condition you should be all right, these cars are rock solid, and a blast to drive on & off the track.

Here's a few titles of books that are a must own for Miata enthusiast: Mazda Miata Performance Handbook, By Norman H. Garrett III, MBI Publishing, ISBN 0-7603-0437-8, & Rod's Mazda Miata Enthusiast's Shop Manual, By Rod Grainger & Pete Shoemark, Veloce Publishing, ISBN 1-874105-59-6 (US edition softback).

Good luck & Have fun!

David #27
Hawaiian Shirt Racing

Damn! 8 SM's in Des Moines, we'll be having 20+ car fields at Gateway this year, along with the Blues bar hopping in Soulard on Saturday night.

[zooracer]

Thanks for the tips ! I will buy the books. Need all the info I can get.
Funny you mention 20 car SM races, because at moroso there were 20 ! Largest feild the whole race weekend.

[lateapex911]

I predict, here in the NE, that we will see 25 or 30 cars easily, and I wouldn't be surprised if the fields are larger not only here but all over the country. I bet some areas will dedicate a whole run group to them.

I also be that we start seeing the Miata as a contender in ITA on certain tracks.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[JIgou]

Zooracer: Check miata.net for advice on what to watch for. Specifically:

Crankshaft stuff: http://www.miata.net/garage/crankshaft.html
http://www.miataclub.org/orlando/xnosecrank/

Buying a used Miata:
http://www.miata.net/faq/usedmx5.html


Jake: Midwest Division was a little slow on the uptake for Spec Miata: we've just finished season #2 with SM, and are beginning season #3. Biggest group of SMs I was in last year was the very last race at Gateway - 11. We'll get there. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Jarrod

[zooracer]

Thanks Jarrod for the sites on crank problems for 90 miata's. I does worry me now, as it seems like it is an issue of when not if the crank will fail.
I would rather not have to find a 92 or later motor when the crank fails. Of course, if this happens years down the road, no big deal, but if it goes in a few months I would be highly disappointed. I dont consider myself skilled enough to swap cranks.
Should I risk it ? I know I can look at the pulley while it is running to look for a wobble. Starting to wonder now about buying this car.
Also, I read that the factory viscous LSD will wear out and when it comes time to replace with the Mazda Motorsport one it will be more expensive because it requires different axles. Is this true ?

[This message has been edited by zooracer (edited January 14, 2003).]

[ddewhurst]

zooracer, I am not trying to pi$$ or anybody on this site but if you went to the www.specmiata.com/ (http://www.specmiata.com/) site you would get quick/straight answers to your Miata questions.

Have Fun http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

David

[JIgou]

Originally posted by zooracer:
it seems like it is an issue of when not if the crank will fail.
I would rather not have to find a 92 or later motor when the crank fails. Of course, if this happens years down the road, no big deal, but if it goes in a few months I would be highly disappointed. I dont consider myself skilled enough to swap cranks.

A little story for you: my '91 has 165,000 miles on it. I bought it a year ago as a street car and converted it. I didn't touch the motor (except for an oil change and new plugs). It ran 10 races and 3 schools, along with several autocrosses, this past summer. Still runs. (Leakdown showed 24% in one cylinder when I pulled it last weekend).

As long as you properly maintain the end of the crank, you'll be fine. Get a new bolt and a new key (grand total of about $10 in parts), take the old parts out and put the new parts in according to the service manual. Torque the bolt correctly, with Loctite on it, and you'll be fine.

Or buy a crate motor for (now) about $2k shippped. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif



Also, I read that the factory viscous LSD will wear out and when it comes time to replace with the Mazda Motorsport one it will be more expensive because it requires different axles. Is this true ?


True. You need to buy stub axles. 2 at $66 apiece. Factor in the $528 for the Comp limited slip plus install, it's not that much.....

David does have a good point - head to www.specmiata.com (http://www.specmiata.com) and use the search function there, and you'll learn more than you EVER wanted to know....

Jarrod


[This message has been edited by JIgou (edited January 15, 2003).]

[zooracer]

I had the feeling someone was going to complain about a spec miata discussion on an improved touring forum. I did actually try to register with the spec miata forum last night to ask the questions but was unsuccessful. When you register they dont ask for a password, but then when you try to post on the forum they require one.
Anyways, I am not definite on going with spec miata. I could still decide to make it an ITA car. Or, I may decide just to race my 89 suzuki swift GT in ITB, where I think it would win championships (100hp/1700lbs).
If that makes anyone feel better about my posts on here, ha ha.
Seriously, you guys have been a huge help. It would be much more difficult to learn about this stuff without this forum, thanks again.
Oh, you mentioned having so many miles on your 91 with no problems. I think the short nose was discontinued in 91 sometime. Did you actually have the short nose crank ? (note to moderator: this question could still apply to improved touring, heh heh)

[This message has been edited by zooracer (edited January 15, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by zooracer (edited January 15, 2003).]

[ddewhurst]

zooracer, I am not suggesting that you go away. The suggestion was made in a manner meaning that you could do a search & also that on SM site you might get several different responses to your Miata questions.

Sitck around http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

David

[ITSRX7]

You should have had a password e:mailed to you if you gave a valid address when you registered.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[zooracer]

I know you werent trying to get rid of me.
I was just joking. I am probably going to concentrate on the suzuki right now, I think two cars would be a handful.
I would love nothing more than to beat all those volvos and VW's with my suzuki.
I may still get a miata, and when I do I will return to this section of the forum. Once again, thanks for everyones help.

[Wreckerboy]

The failure of the early (1990 to mid '91, see www.miatanet.com (http://www.miatanet.com) for details) crank is usually caused by servicing the timing belt and reinstalling the pulley key backwards. It is an easy mistake to make (ask the dealership mechanic who did it on my '90), and generally speaking is the sole cause of the failure.

A later crank apparently does not fit in the earlier motor, so either replacement of the OE crank with the same part is required, or replacement of the entire motor is indicated, which is why my street/race car has 250K on the chassis and about 225K on the '92 motor in it now.

[joeg]

True, and you can repair this problem by having a mahine shop cut a new keyway 180 degrees from the old one.

This was also a problem in some early model Audis.

I doubt a double keyed crank is legal, but someone may be able to figure something out.

[Matt Gent]

Zooracer, if you're not going to buy the Miata, can you forward the contact information to [email protected] ?

I'm in Florida and looking for a car to build progressively as well.