black boxes and wires everywhere

[maverick18]

I'm preparing an 87 RX7 for IT racing. I need a wiring schematic. Has anyone seen one on the web? So far I've found three black boxes. On behind the spare tire, one on the drivers kick panel and another attached to the steering bracket. Will anyone identify these for me and which ones I can eliminate.

TIA, a lot more questions to come!
Frank

ARRRRRRRG, Wherda all the stupid wires go......Welcome to our nightmare, you came to right place, be patient, there are several guys here that can help you with the 2nd gen stuff, not me though, im a stone wheel rex guy.

[BrianB]

Maverick,
If your car has automatic adjusting suspension, the box behind the spare tire is the control unit for it.Behind the drivers kick panel you will find a fuse panel, (closest to the firewall) with the CPU to the left of it, and the cruise control unit above and to the left on the CPU. The unit near the steering column is probably the power steering control(if you have it)!
BrianB

[maverick18]

My car has every option. Power steering, sports suspension, cruise control, AC, power windows, moon roof, you name it.

I was thinking of splitting the tape bundle and elininate the obvious wires. i.e., surround sound, suspension wires

How much of the heater has to work? Fan and dampers? Do you keep the ducting? what about defrost in rainy weather?

When is the next IT race in Georgia? I would really love to see what you guys have done to your cars. I hope that will be a possibility.

Thanks
Frank

[lateapex911]

you need to do two things....
1 Get a copy of the SCCA GCR (General Competition Rules) and it's companion volume relevant to your category: the ITCS book. (Improved Touring Category Specifications, all in one book, published annually by the SCCA, see their web site.)

These will answer all your questions regarding what you can and can not remove. A few tips. The biggest rule is the now infamous "IF it doesn't say you can, you can't!" In other words, you need the rule book to say "Removal of defroster and heater ducting, cores and all related hardware is permitted", for you to start pulling things out. I couln't find any reference allowing that, so you need to leave it alone. besides, a race car is a very efficient steam machine....if you ever end up racing on a wet course you will likely have to abort the race if you don't have the proper ventilation due to fogging of the windsheild.

2: Go to the ARRCs at Road Atlanta, coming up in October. There you will see the best made, and best prepped and best driven ITS cars in the country. The event is the defacto national championship for non National status classes....Regional classes only. Well worth the time for someone just starting out.

Good luck!

------------------
Jake Gulick
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Silkworm]

Go here:

http://www.fc3s.org, under how to, manuals, you can find the Mazda service manuals for both the 86-88 and 89-91 RX-7

However, I caution you, you should read the GCR first to determine what you can and can't remove legally.

PaulC

[maverick18]

Nothing has benn removed that can't be reinstalled. No wires cut, a lot unplugged though.
I've been waiting on the GCR for two weeks now. I wasn't aware of a suppliment book for IT. I guess it's time for more hurry up and wait. I have a hard time with that.

So, how many of you guys race listening to surround sound with the AC on?

Frank

[Silkworm]

Do you always act snide to people who potentially may be your best resource for helping you understand the rules, build your car, and troubleshoot problems with your car?

No, I don't race with my AC on and radio. However, I do race with my windshield washer bottle intact (because the rules won't let me remove it). I do race my with heater core intact (because the rules won't let me remove it), and I do race with the stock brakes (because the rules won't let me change them).

So find out what the bloody rules are.

PaulC

[mlytle]

i am guessing he wasn't being snide, just making a "funny".

guess i am an optimist...:-)

marshall

[maverick18]

I hardly ever snipe. Apologies to all offended! I understand the evolution of IT but, think some of the required equipment is funny. i.e., washer bottles.

Later, still no GCR, still waiting.
Frank

[lateapex911]

Just to clear up the ITCS thing...it is INCLUDED with the GCR into one THICK 5" x 7" book. Your waiting for the ITCS is well underway. Set aside an evening or two for reading it!

About the radio comment...no offense taken here! (I actually drove my 1st car to the races for the first year, doing a lot of street driving on racing tires, and actually listened to the Alpine in grid a few times.....so you weren't too far off base! Sadly, my current "more serious" car hasn't exactly run rings around the old dual purpose car!)

------------------
Jake Gulick
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Silkworm]

Frank,

No argument.. Some of these rules are absolutely ridiculous, but hey, dem's the rules.

If you want to check out my buildup, head here: http://www.lcaf.com/silk/RX-7/rx-7.html

PaulC

[maverick18]

Paul that is nice. Bookmarked! Exactly the stuff for which I've been searching the net.

You mentioned a panel to cover the sun roof. Did you purchase it or roll it on an English Wheel? I have access to a English wheel but never used one.

Thanks
Frank

[Silkworm]

Hey Frank,

No, the panel is the sunroof panel, detached from all the underlying framework. I then attached the panel to the car.

Easier than trying to fab something, it's not heavy at all, and gets me most of my headroom I need.

PaulC

[balz]

Frank,

Take a look at the link below and you'll see what we did last year in the off season.

The GCR states (without having it in front of me I will paraphrase so this is not a direct quote) The stock wiring harness must be in the car. It says nothing about stock location.

A lot of you will look at this and get your feathers ruffled but what I did is legal per the GCR (interpretation of the rules). I asked before I did it and have passed every tech to date.

My advice is to take everything out, especially if you are building a car from the ground up. Take the time to roll-it/Form it into a manageable roll/loop or ball. Rigidly mount everything to the floor-board of the car (down low on the right hand side where the weight is needed anyway).

The ONLY things you will need to wire (or that we wired) are:
Battery to the kill switch
Alt to the kill switch

Wiring box with relays that connect the following:
Fuel Pump
Ignition (e-mail me for my phone number if you need help with this part)
Radiator Fan (if you use one)
Cool suit (a must in the SE)
Lights (I only wired the gauges for moving the car at night)
Windshield wipers (if your not a rain-X fan)

I noticed you are preping a 2nd gen for ITS. If your running Fuel injection you will have to also wire your computer, O2 Sensors and computer. This is not a big deal either, and should all me isolated to the ignition switch. If your going to run a carb setup instead...then all of the things I did still apply.

There are pictures on the my website of a good bit of the process. The are not detailed but if you call me I can talk you through everything you'd need to know.

http://www.balz.myip.org/racing%20stuff/RX7EngineSwap/

Frank
[email protected]



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Balz
#67 IT-7
www.balz.myip.org
"I live my life one Apex (seal) at a time"

[Chris Wire]

****CALLING ALL RULES NERDS - TEN HUT!****


[quote]Originally posted by balz:
The GCR states (without having it in front of me I will paraphrase so this is not a direct quote) The stock wiring harness must be in the car. It says nothing about stock location.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't find anywhere in the GCR that says you can relocate your harness into a big loop and put it wherever you like. Just scanned the GCR again, and nope, still don't see it? Can you quote the text, please?

Using this logic, ITCS D.9.c states that:
Gauges and instruments may be added, replaced, or removed. They may be installed in the original instruments location using a mounting plate, or any other location using a secure method of attachment. Other than modifications made to mount instruments and provide for roll cage installation, the remainder of the dash board or panel shall remain intact."

I should be able to take out the dash board and put it in the hatch, right? The dash would be intact, but the GCR doesn't really say anything about location, does it?

A lot of you will look at this and get your feathers ruffled but what I did is legal per the GCR (interpretation of the rules). I asked before I did it and have passed every tech to date.

Passing Tech is not necessarily an endorsement of legality. As has been stated many times before on this board, interpretations of the rules in Tech vary as much as they do on this forum. If you can't document the rule that specifically allows your modification, it's probably not legal, regardless of how Tech feels about it. And I have been reminded many times that, unless it's a safety concern, most Tech people leave it up to your competitors to protest you before concerning themselves with such matters.

My advice is to take everything out, especially if you are building a car from the ground up. Take the time to roll-it/Form it into a manageable roll/loop or ball. Rigidly mount everything to the floor-board of the car (down low on the right hand side where the weight is needed anyway).

Again, please state the GCR rule which specifically allows this modification.

I noticed you are preping a 2nd gen for ITS. If your running Fuel injection you will have to also wire your computer, O2 Sensors and computer.

Again, this is not allowed as the rule, even as liberal as it is pertaining to ECUs, states that the wiring harness for the computer must remain unaltered.

Now for the advice:

A) Read the GCR and be well versed in it. Don't just read it, UNDERSTAND it.

B) Get a FACTORY service manual. Not only are you required to have one, it is you #1 best source for the information you are looking for.

C) Listen to the guys on this forum, they have great insight. But don't take everything as gospel. You need to be able to discern whether someone's advice or suggestion is within the rules or will put you outside of them. I don't mean to pick on Frank, but it was an easy example of the point I am trying to make to you.

D Know the rules. By doing this you will insure your compliance and increase your own fun factor. In addition, you will be better able to decide when your fellow competitors have overstepped the boundries of the rules, and if you like, you can help get them back on track, which in turn helps the level of competition on the race track.

****RULES NERDS - DISSSSSSSSSMISSED!!!****

------------------
Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

[balz]

Chris,

Review (I won't quote them here) sections

9.c, g, h, k

Your quote on the HARNESS is not correct.

YOUR QUOTE>>>>Again, this is not allowed as the rule, even as liberal as it is pertaining to ECUs, states that the """""wiring harness"""" for the computer must remain unaltered.<<<<<

GCR
D.1.a.6
Fuel-injected cars may alter fuel mixture through the modification of resistance values of the sensors which feed the computer. The """""COMPUTER"""" shall remain unaltered.....

Also see
D.1.o
Harware items...

BTW..it only says that the dash "board" or panel shall remain intact. As a matter of Fact it specifies and HIGH-LIGHTS that fact by saying and I quote ...the remainder of the dash "board" or panel shall remain intact.

Frank, if you want to know exactly what to do...call Denver....they are the only ones authorized to give you guidance on interpretations of the GCR.

Take a look around at some of the guys that have been running in your region for a while that run the same car as you and that are "front runners." They are a good source of advice, having lived through the scrutiny of post race tech inspections.

ITCS is not a Spec or Showroom class so there are several modifications that you are allowed for safety and operability of your car.

Its like the bible and christianity...the book has been written for years, but we still have many religions that have sprung up and disagreed about several items in principal. Who's right? Who knows <GRIN>.

To quote a few good men...show me where the GCR tells you how to get to the track-side chow hall and what to eat before you race. It doesn't...so does that mean you can't eat prior to racing...no (real far stretched analogy, but hopefully you get my point and the origin of my joke).

Best regards and happy racing!



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Balz
#67 IT-7
www.balz.myip.org
"I live my life one Apex (seal) at a time"

[Knestis]

I'm with Chris on this one (no surprise there, for everyone except perhaps poor Frank, who asked the question in the first place).

Hey, Frank. I would caution you against accepting liberal interpretations at this point in your SCCA career. You will enter club racing with little in the way of social power so it's probably best to put yourself in the position that is least likely to require you to defend your actions.

The most important info here is that legality is defined by race stewards but policed by your competitors. You could run a lumpy camshaft and, if nobody gave enough of a dang to protest you, it would be operationally "legal". This system makes for some interesting conversation and more than a little acrimony at the track and over beer afterward. It isn't the most attractive feature of club racing.

While I really like the bible analogy, Balz, the lunch line comparison overstates a position. There doesn't HAVE to be any clause in the rules telling you that the wiring must be unchanged. Finally, while I am a big fan of collecting and sharing interpretations from Topeka, they are only binding insofar as the tech folks and stewards hearing a protest know about them.

Kirk

[balz]

Kirk,

Well said...and the stewards here have given their interpretation of the GCR twice this year...

Repositioning of my wiring harness has lended me no competitive advantage and has improved only the safety of the car and has never been found to be outside of the rules of ITCS.

Do you have all of your mirrors in the stock factory location? It says you can replace them with aftermarket mirrors, and allows you to use "like parts" for attachment, but now where in the GCR does it specify that you can place your mirrors anywhere but in the stock location.

So...if you have placed them anywhere else does that mean that you are illegal?

I'd bet almost everyone (not myself included) would be guilty of that rule violation (if interpreted under the letter of the GCR).

Food for thought...

------------------
Balz
#67 IT-7
www.balz.myip.org
"I live my life one Apex (seal) at a time"

[Knestis]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...and the stewards here have given their interpretation of the GCR twice this year...</font>

Serious business? You've had mechanical protests filed on your wiring strategy two times already and had the stewards find in your favor? Dang. If that's the case, then you have yourself covered where you race.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Repositioning of my wiring harness has lended me no competitive advantage...</font>

What happened to "down low on the right hand side where the weight is needed anyway"? http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Click that little X in the corner of the window if you have heard this too many times already but the fact that you did it is evidence enough that you at least think you are benefitting from it, whether it translates into measurable lap time or not. Your defense of your actions just strengthens the case that you think it is valuable.

Kirk

[balz]

I see you point on my comment but...I refer you back to the bible...

What does the GCR say about the addition of weight????

If I so desired...I could have added upto 100lbs of lead (or other material) in the same place the wiring harness is sitting...

SO...not competitive advantage gained...

And...technically, no... I have not been protested but I have run in two events where the cars in the top 5 went through a post race tech...

No problems either time.

I figured this thread was going to open up a can of worms...

BTW...Never did hear back on where you have your mirrors.


------------------
Balz
#67 IT-7
www.balz.myip.org
"I live my life one Apex (seal) at a time"

[balz]

Ya know...this is probably one of those items we should move to the Regs section of the forum...We are killing poor Frank's post.

And Frank....A lot of what you are seeing her is opinion...my posts included. Read the GCR (ITCS section) and just be able to support everything you do to your car.

If you go look in the tech section of the forum you will see some pretty heated (in good heart and fashion as this one has been in by all parties) regarding wiring.

I am not a huge subscriber to the "if it doesn't say you can do it then you can't" club. But that is not to say that I am a fan of breaking the rules either...

It should be a level playing field and slack in one end, even minor, could lead to major slack on the other end, being major from a rules standpoint.

If you cheat, you will and should get caught.

But there is also a large amount of nit-picking that goes on around the rules that I (opinion) think is wasteful. You will learn this as you get your car ready...

If you kick the crap out of someone on the track and your car is legal and the best that they can come up with is that you have rain-X on your windshield and the GCR didn't say you could...well then that gives you some insight on your competition.

There are a few good posts out in the tech section you should referrence...

Air in the tires (doesn't tell you how to, how much, or if you can fill them at all...so is the air in your tires legal?) Of course it is...

Wiring of your Tach, Fuel Pressure Guage, EGT, Air/Fuel Ratio, etc, etc...The GCR says you can mount them but it doesn't specifically say you can wire them. SO...if you do wire them are you illegal? I would think not (but that is my opinion)

Is the addition or modification of the wiring harness allowed? It would have to be to allow you to run an MSD ignition...because your car didn't come with one and you have to add/modify your existing wiring harness to make it fit. But...THE GCR doesn't say that you can. IN this case it is just added balast (not in the appropriate part of the car) and is in-fact illegal. (as Col. Potter would say...Horse Hockey).

Just more food for thought.



------------------
Balz
#67 IT-7
www.balz.myip.org
"I live my life one Apex (seal) at a time"

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by balz:
If I so desired...I could have added upto 100lbs of lead (or other material) in the same place the wiring harness is sitting...

SO...not competitive advantage gained...


Balz,

Before I refute your argument I will say that the advantage gained is MINISCULE, but it is there.

Yes you could have placed upto 100# of weight there, but you didn't. Therefore you have repositioned weight in your car without adding any additional weight.

Absolutely no big deal in the overall handling picture by adding 3# of wiring down there. I wouldn't protest somebody for doing such a thing. But that's me. I would have to feel that whatever infraction someone has, in my opinion, committed was the only reason I got beat. Again, that's me. Everyone else can protest whoever they wish, for whatever reason they wish.



[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited September 29, 2002).]

[Knestis]

Every production-based race car that I have ever driven had OEM mirrors. Two of them had electric mirrors, which were handy in enduros...

K

Edit - Sorry. I meant to add that the whole point of conversations like this is to get people thinking about the things we do and communicating about them. Both of these activities clarify our individual and collective understanding of things, which can't be a bad thing. Don't panic, Frank! We are generally harmless...

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited September 29, 2002).]

[balz]

Well said Kurt!

Frank, welcome to the club!



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Balz
#67 IT-7
www.balz.myip.org
"I live my life one Apex (seal) at a time"

[maverick18]

Thanks everyone for the posts. I now have a copy of the GCR. I currently race go karts, and I use the philosophy that "if it's not stated, it's legal." I guess it's time to rethink my position.

Thanks again
Frank Mosely

[Chris Wire]

Originally posted by balz:
Your quote on the HARNESS is not correct.

YOUR QUOTE>>>>Again, this is not allowed as the rule, even as liberal as it is pertaining to ECUs, states that the """""wiring harness"""" for the computer must remain unaltered.<<<<<

GCR
D.1.a.6
Fuel-injected cars may alter fuel mixture through the modification of resistance values of the sensors which feed the computer. The """""COMPUTER"""" shall remain unaltered.....

balz,

Further clarification to my point about the harness can be found in the Feb. 02 Fastrack. You won't find it in the GCR, it's an addendum.

2. Section 17.1.4.D.4.6, p.8, change section to read as follows: "Fuel injected cars may alter or replace the engine management computer, or ECU, provided that all modifications are done within the original OEM ECU housing. Only the stock (unmodified) OEM ECU connection to the wiring harness may be used. The allowance to modify the ECU in mo way permits the addition of wiring, sensors, or piggybacked computers outside of the OEM ECU housing. The stock (unmodified) wiring harness must be used.

*** Bold print is mine.



<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Its like the bible and christianity...the book has been written for years, but we still have many religions that have sprung up and disagreed about several items in principal. Who's right? Who knows <GRIN>.</font>

Like the GCR, the Bible takes continuous study to accurately discern what it is that God is trying to convey to us. It is one of the keys to saving faith. A Christian needs to be able to properly assess what is being stated in the Bible and apply the lesson to his/her life. It is a never-ending struggle in our society to keep ourselves in the Will of God.

That struggle exists when dealing with the GCR as well. A proper study and understanding of the rules is necessary to discern which modifications are clearly within the rules, which ones push close to the edge, and which ones take you over into the Dark Side. Be sure to keep all of your copies of Fastrack, too. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[/B][/QUOTE]



------------------
Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

[balz]

ARRRRGHH...I hate loosing a fight...Well, not really <GRIN>.

Frank..Chris has me there...I must admit that I read Fastrack but I only focus on those items that relate to my exact class (IT-7) IT-A. If if had to do with fuel injection or a computer (my car is computer dumb) I am sure I skipped over it.

I bow...you got me on that one <grin>.

>>>>>>>RULES NERDS....I AM NOT WORTHY...GRIN

Frank


------------------
Balz
#67 IT-7
www.balz.myip.org
"I live my life one Apex (seal) at a time"

[ivey]

hey guys what about the objects allowed to be removed, ac, sunroof, auto adj,etc can the wires be cut back or just leave conn hanging

[backformore]

Hey Frank, are you still with us?

The advice to check out the ARRC at Road Atlanta is great advice. You will, in fact, see the best of both car and driver.

The previous post stated that it takes place in October. It USED to take place in October, now it's November. Specifically, November 8,9,10.

Welcome to the party and good luck!

Rory